1st June Show with Dr. Bernard Haisch

[Poi]

I can't prove nuttin,' but I believe Haisch made the distinction between getting lost in a moment of music with being suddenly aware of one's place in the universe. While the former is enriching and a positive effect of our ability to feel and become the music, in a sense, the latter is a vastly different kettle of fish. It's more like a download of information not connected to any human endeavor other than the desire to be done with suffering, in my experience anyway.

When the intent is great enough, perhaps "pure" is a better term, and one is looking for a way out of suffering, (a term that can mean emotional pain, negative thinking, any number of ill producing phenomena) and has seen some error in his behavior or thinking, the download can be very abrupt or less so, but there's no mistaking it for the swelling of a heart over a beautiful sunset or music that stirs the soul.

From my experience, and I've been told that I'm incorrect often enough, one has to have come to the conclusion that he has been mistaken in his world view in some large way. There has to be some movement for betterment within and the admission that one has been incorrect in the most fundamental aspect of living and relating before the Big Picture is suddenly downloaded.

Maybe it's a matter of just asking the right questions with intent to discover, but that route never did diddlysquat for me. I had to admit I'd been wrong about how the world works and how I'd mistakenly operated from my perspective without guilt (judgment) for my mistake. "Something Is Wrong" is the thing we have to pluck out of our individual association with guilt, I think.

I don't know how those things came into play, but they were crucial, intent and non-judgment, I'm sure. I did have a desire to move past suffering too. Take that for what it's worth.

What happens within that Eureka moment is indescribable, something sorely intended, I'm sure, because we don't come out of it with the ability to suddenly live a Dalai Lama-like existence. As shattering as the experience is, we are still fallible and unwise with maybe a better sense that we are part of something incredible, even with our mistakes. We're left with a desire to look at things with new eyes even if we find that difficult. We're kinder to ourselves more often which in turn makes us kinder to those near us, sometimes anyway. Sounds puny, but tripping there isn't. It leaves us changed.

 

[BrandonD]

Seems to me mankind is heading the other direction and the decline of consciousness will eventually break the foundation of existence rather than contribute to understanding it.

Good point, please forgive my momentary fit of optimism. If you were to ask my honest opinion I'd guess that the truth is in between, and humanity is static. Only the outer forms are changing while internally we remain the same. Within this situation individuals might have the possibility to change but humanity at large cannot.

I picture a big organ in a body, with the individual cells serving the function of the organ. A few individual cells might change without affecting the functioning of the organ, but a large number of the cells cannot.

That's my hunch anyway.

 

[valiens]

Haisch has it almost correct, except there is no He/She/It creating the universe and divorced from it. There is only Being. In Being is Creating. Intelligence didn't decide to descend into matter to experience the physical, it has no choice, as the physical is also it. No divide. Just ISness.

To step outside of psychological time is to step into Isness, to assume the identity of Intelligence, and to experience this. That's what meditation aims to do, except it's not a good tool; it's all junked up with definitions and exercises, visualizations, etc. The things that we think of as meditations, ways, and paths come from the state they try to attain, they aren't paths to it. This is where we went wrong long ago: Translating these emanations from that state as a means to get there. They can't be. They are all thoughts, disciplines--and here we are back in psychological time.

The only thing "to do" is get this at such a deep level that the brain shuts up, quits, commits ego suicide. This is the only way. "The Way Of No Way" as Bruce Lee called it. Die to the known so that the unknown may reveal "itself." Everything else is a defense mechanism, including saying you're doing just that.

 

[Poi]

Die to the known so that the unknown may reveal "itself."

Yep, that's it.

 

[Rob]

The Reasoning Show is a podcast that deals with some the topics raised in this thread, and may provide some pointers into the absolute, the totality, in a series of interviews and online discussions/debates "aimed at the very heart of matters".

And the three hosts have big proper philosopher-sized beards.

 

[Brian Now]

Here's an interesting mystery: all the thoughtful people I know suffer from a sense that they are in a state of disconnection and ignorance. We have no idea why we are here, we do not know the future, and our consciousness is most definitely separate from the outside world. And yet, this has been our condition for the duration of our life. We know of nothing else.

Many people who grew up in the 1970s and 80s feel this way. I think this has sociological roots more than anything else. So we've been in the same condition all our lives like you say, but thanks to the media (all forms) we have always had something to compare ourselves to. I mean, you can always find somebody on TV, either real or a character that has it together and compare yourself to them (and come up short)...well, I do anyway! I don't mean to start a discussion about psychology and the media.

These problems affect us spiritually of course, and the solutions themselves might be termed 'spiritual' too.

 

[Brian Now]

And the three hosts have big proper philosopher-sized beards.

Indeed! Thanks for that, I am going to check it out.

Has anyone hear read Thomas Campbell's My Big TOE (theory of everything)??
I have ordered the 3-book set but not received it yet. Similar ideas as Haisch apparently.

 

[BrandonD]

Many people who grew up in the 1970s and 80s feel this way. I think this has sociological roots more than anything else. So we've been in the same condition all our lives like you say, but thanks to the media (all forms) we have always had something to compare ourselves to. I mean, you can always find somebody on TV, either real or a character that has it together and compare yourself to them (and come up short)...well, I do anyway! I don't mean to start a discussion about psychology and the media.

These problems affect us spiritually of course, and the solutions themselves might be termed 'spiritual' too.

Yea I agree, even though the condition doesn't appear to be so it might be something sociologically rooted.

 

[Aaron LeClair]

The only thing "to do" is get this at such a deep level that the brain shuts up, quits, commits ego suicide. This is the only way. "The Way Of No Way" as Bruce Lee called it. Die to the known so that the unknown may reveal "itself." Everything else is a defense mechanism, including saying you're doing just that.

I liked something I read in one of the Conversations With God books. It talks about how people are always trying to do this, and do that and all we wind up with is a great big pile of do-do. We're human beings, not human doings blah blah. It then talks about beingness etc. which you might like. Check the books out sometime. Neale Donald Walsh is the author.

I also like the statement life isn't a process of discovery so much as a process of creation. We spend a lot of time looking for answers, when God gave us the ability to create them etc.

 

[Brian Now]

I liked something I read in one of the Conversations With God books.

I like the general stuff I read in his first book I think. Look like later he let his imagination go wild.

Back to Haisch. He said it was some kind of mystery how a photon knows where it's going because it experiences no time or space. I don't understand the question I guess.
We all know that traveling at the speed of light means you won't experience time passing (so, please don't post a summary of relativity). But whether the photon experiences time passing or space itself is sort of irrelevant to where it goes. It goes where it is aimed and hits whatever it happens to hit. Does anyone understand what he was talking about?

 

[Ally]

It seemd like many meditations and other forms of esoteric practices aim to connect to the universe or God source. I have had these type of expereinces several times in my life. Other than WOW this is interesting and cool how do these expereinces really help us in the long run and everyday life? Another question I often wonder is how long can an ordinary person stay in these altered states before going insane?

I do find that is is more difficult to function in this society if I get into one of these states accidently. Davids's example with music is one way I use to connect.

I would like to hear from people who have experiecned these connecting states of consciousness either by choice or accident and what impact, if any, these have had to their overall being? I hope that makes sence.

 

[Schuyler]

Well, I've had that feeling he talks about as an altered state while on LSD. At the time I thought it was a mystical/religious experience, the feeling of stepping outside the borders of 'ordinary' living to experience life from a different, more all-encompassing level. However, I'm not convinced that I actually 'saw reality.' It could have been a complete delusion on my part, affected by my expectations and interpreted through a faulty instrument (That would be me.)

I also thought our hosts did an excellent job. Thanks for the show.

 

[BrandonD]

Well, I've had that feeling he talks about as an altered state while on LSD. At the time I thought it was a mystical/religious experience, the feeling of stepping outside the borders of 'ordinary' living to experience life from a different, more all-encompassing level. However, I'm not convinced that I actually 'saw reality.' It could have been a complete delusion on my part, affected by my expectations and interpreted through a faulty instrument (That would be me.)

I also thought our hosts did an excellent job. Thanks for the show.

Here is a wacky take on the use of psychedelics in order to perceive "reality":

I consider the ordinary state of consciousness to be subjective and illusory to some degree. I think the exact same of the psychedelic state. Neither one is "real", but between the two you can better perceive what is reality.

Triangulating the position of an object requires more than one point, and it seems that between the two "unrealities" there is something that does not change.

 

[CapnG]

I would like to hear from people who have experiecned these connecting states of consciousness either by choice or accident and what impact, if any, these have had to their overall being?

I had an experience along these lines when I was younger. I was heavily into martial arts at the time and meditated frequently. One of my dojo-mates recommended I read a book "The Celestine Prophecy". I personally don't recommend it as it's a bit over-the-top but some of the key ideas it discusses are interesting.

In one chapter of the book, they author mentions feeling "the totallity of the earth" during meditation, so I thought I would try it out. I began to meditate and soon reached a state of calm, then I began to "feel out" for the earth around me. The first sensation I had was of being rooted, like a tree, as if I had been superglued to the earth's surface. Next, it was as if I could envision the whole earth beneath me, I could "feel" it's roundness and massive scale. Then something unexpected happened. I suddenly (and I mean INSTANTLY) became aware of the speed of the earth, spinning on it's axis, hurtling around the sun, the velocity was phenominal. So much so in fact that I panicked and broke the meditation like I was afraid I'd get whiplash or something!

To this day, I can remember the details of that experience with perfect clarity but I have no "sense" of the experience at all. I often wonder what would have happened if I'd hung on, how much bigger would my perception have gotten? The solar system? The galaxy? The universe?

Or did I just imagine it all?

 

[UBERDOINK]

Actually, that is a meaningless statement because only the shallowest tenets of christianity are universally accepted, the deeper ideas are all in dispute. HENCE baptists, catholics, lutherans, quakers, christian scientists, episcopalians, jehovah's witnesses, etc.

I know this not a pleasant fact to accept, but the bible is contradictory in many places, which allows for a whole range of belief systems, all of which are considered by their followers to be the "true" ideas of christianity.

While you might argue that, again, from a lack of understanding. Show me a Catholic, Baptist or Quaker that says God is a man with a big beard?

That's a parody of the belief system and highly inaccurate view.

Quite a lot of the guests theory's coincide very well with Christian view of God. Buy not the Simpson's/cartoon version.

 

[dusty]

Just got to hear the show,

So good, I'm listening again for the third time today.

Has to be my favourite show so far. In so many ways.

Peace, Mark.

 

[BrandonD]

While you might argue that, again, from a lack of understanding. Show me a Catholic, Baptist or Quaker that says God is a man with a big beard?

That's a parody of the belief system and highly inaccurate view.

I really don't think they were parodying the beard. They were parodying the idea of the Santa Claus version of God.

He sees you when you're sleeping
He knows when you're awake
He knows if you've been bad or good
So be good for goodness sake

It is a simple-minded concept and doesn't stand up to any depth of thinking. This is why Bernard recommends people to think about the beliefs they were raised up with and ask themselves, "Do they make sense?"

 

[UBERDOINK]

It is a simple-minded concept and doesn't stand up to any depth of thinking. This is why Bernard recommends people to think about the beliefs they were raised up with and ask themselves, "Do they make sense?"

again highly inaccurate, Bernards God knows everything, is also "Santa Claus" if you want. He knows our thoughts, what we do, etc.

Why is it simplistic to think a universal creator that exists outside space and time, might also be able to fully know it's own creation?

Like I said, the guests views line up very well with most Biblical views.

 

[Graphimancer]

Excellent show, one of your best. Dr. Haisch was darn impressive. Gene and Dave's questions were good; No soft-ball questions, no free ride, yet you hit on the question in directions I wouldn't have thought of. I'm thinking in particular about this light/hologram computing thing, which I know nothing about, but seems very germain to the topic.

 

[Rocketsauce]

I haven't listened to the episode or read through all the posts, but it's one of my favorite topics so while I have a couple free minutes i thought i would chime in.

I think the idea that God created the material world to experience is legit even within a paradigm where the material world has errors etc.....

If there are many dimensions, perhaps the dimension we are in is one of the more coarse dimensions and only the most refined consciousness is able to progress to the finer realms, so it's partly a training ground but also a filter with a hierarchy of levels. Maybe all the crappy stuff that happens is just part of the material experience and is just par for the course and in the overall picture of many lifetimes the bad things that happen really aren't that bad in the 'real' big picture, they just appear bad (easier said then believed when 100,000 died in Burma and China!) I believe the Buddhist believe that to live is to suffer and I think that's true, hence I just chowed down an ice cream Sunday to temporary feel better!

Strangely, in the Edgar Cayce readings, he said that we started here on earth when a bunch of souls from the other realm decided that living in the material world would help them learn more about and be closer to God. Cayce's readings go on to say, that many of these souls got way too absorbed in the material realm and became 'stuck' basically and corrupt with the material indulgences (power/greed). So that's entirely possible. Taking that theory to another level, it's possible that as souls that entered earth together our destinies are all intertwined (I hope not!) and unless the mass consciousness of the human race progresses past this material world, we are stuck here.

I essentially believe we have free will and 'free will' combined with 'material indulgence' combined with 'ignorance of the ultimate' could be the main recipe for evil. I don't think this would mean that God is evil, merely that not all of consciousness progresses at the same rate, some may be stuck in rut for a very long time.

Regarding organized religions, I think they can be great things but also horrible things too. I think religions reflect humans who are both capable of great charity but also horrible wars. One thing is undeniable, religion is powerful.

My personal take is that much of organized religion is human interpretation and therefore open to the corruptness of politics. Hence the seemingly arbitrary choice of books that were 'chosen by those in charge' as well as arbitrary choice of which rituals would survived the test of time. You can always argue that any choices made by leaders within religion were influenced by the divine, but that's a matter of faith and I personally don't believe it. I think human politics and marketing have had a strong impact on which religions have stood the test of time among the masses.

I think most major world religions have great things to offer if people actually adhere to the virtues they promote. Strangely, those who claim to be the most righteous and who are often the vocal minority, are those who often don't adhere to these virtues and personify narrow minded judgemental beliefs and behavior.

I'll have to listen to the show and read the other posts when i have time.