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trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
Wow. It sounds like it was pretty profound experience. I hope you get to feeling better soon.
While I am skeptical about the conclusions we all make about these sorts of events, I am not skeptical about the fact that people experience them.
I intend to try to be more observant and actually look up more this summer among other things. My desire to experience something myself to give me something to work with directly is bubbling up again.
V
Voyager
Guest
These Montana winters kick my ass! Didn't bother me when I was younger.
Kim323
Paranormal Maven
Just when I think I'm going to take a break from the forum, I get sucked back in by it!
Voyager and Mike, those are intriguing stories indeed, and experiences can be very, very personal and dear, and should be treated with respect. I laud Angleo for lauding Mike on his attribution of what happened to him (and I believe something happened) as sleep paralysis. I noticed that Mike doesn't by any means have his mind made up:
"not an academic question for me"
"or something else? I can't tell you."
"honest answer, I don't know"
"maybe of an abduction"
"my answer is not hypothetical"
Also, the experience seems to be continuing, a recurring feeling of "a 'visitor'" so that Mike has to get out of bed and sit down. I think it took a lot of talent to create the art work of what Mike saw. As someone who admires art from the perspective of being a total klutz at it, I think Mike has created a very realistic likeness of what he saw, and he puts an emphasis more on the reality of that creation than attributing it to sleep paralysis.
I remember reading the book by Susan Clancy, Abducted: How People Come to Believe They Were Kidnapped a few years ago. There's an article here that examines her research on the subject:
http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~dsweb/pdfs/02_05_SAC_RJM_DLS_etal.pdf
Also, Susan Blackmore, an English researcher on consciousness whom I recommended on another thread, has studied the phenomenon:
CSI | Abduction by Aliens or Sleep Paralysis?
In light of this and so much other research on sleep paralysis and alien abduction, I just wonder how alien abduction can be not only seriously considered but, in my opinion, an emphasis put on it rather than on what rational studies have shown (to the extent that any credence at all in my opinion should be given to the "hypothesis" that it was an actual alien). And, Lost in Space was on in the sixties (I remember it as a kid) and Close Encounters was out in, what, mid to late seventies?
I realize these experiences by Mike and Voyager were real to them, indeed, and I echo the sentiments that they recover from any trauma that they acknowledge they had/have. That is personal stuff, and dear experience to which another human being must be respectful. Kim
Voyager and Mike, those are intriguing stories indeed, and experiences can be very, very personal and dear, and should be treated with respect. I laud Angleo for lauding Mike on his attribution of what happened to him (and I believe something happened) as sleep paralysis. I noticed that Mike doesn't by any means have his mind made up:
"not an academic question for me"
"or something else? I can't tell you."
"honest answer, I don't know"
"maybe of an abduction"
"my answer is not hypothetical"
Also, the experience seems to be continuing, a recurring feeling of "a 'visitor'" so that Mike has to get out of bed and sit down. I think it took a lot of talent to create the art work of what Mike saw. As someone who admires art from the perspective of being a total klutz at it, I think Mike has created a very realistic likeness of what he saw, and he puts an emphasis more on the reality of that creation than attributing it to sleep paralysis.
I remember reading the book by Susan Clancy, Abducted: How People Come to Believe They Were Kidnapped a few years ago. There's an article here that examines her research on the subject:
http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~dsweb/pdfs/02_05_SAC_RJM_DLS_etal.pdf
Also, Susan Blackmore, an English researcher on consciousness whom I recommended on another thread, has studied the phenomenon:
CSI | Abduction by Aliens or Sleep Paralysis?
In light of this and so much other research on sleep paralysis and alien abduction, I just wonder how alien abduction can be not only seriously considered but, in my opinion, an emphasis put on it rather than on what rational studies have shown (to the extent that any credence at all in my opinion should be given to the "hypothesis" that it was an actual alien). And, Lost in Space was on in the sixties (I remember it as a kid) and Close Encounters was out in, what, mid to late seventies?
I realize these experiences by Mike and Voyager were real to them, indeed, and I echo the sentiments that they recover from any trauma that they acknowledge they had/have. That is personal stuff, and dear experience to which another human being must be respectful. Kim
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Voyager
Guest
Angel of Ioren
Friendly Skeptic
Thanks for that Kim.
Alien abductions are an interesting topic for me because I have experienced the sensation. One of the things that drives my interest in the paranormal is trying to understand why people with such similar experiences can interpret it in such different ways. I have had several vivid abduction experiences, but instead of attributing them to actual aliens, I have been able to establish that they are without a doubt sleep paralysis. I know this because my wife has been there to snap me out of it a few times, and she's pretty sure she didn't see any aliens. I have had some discussions with people that think their similar experiences had to be aliens and they refuse to see it as a sleep disorder. People will approach things from different angles, and we have to understand that.
I prefer to go with the explanation that seems the most logical.
Alien abductions are an interesting topic for me because I have experienced the sensation. One of the things that drives my interest in the paranormal is trying to understand why people with such similar experiences can interpret it in such different ways. I have had several vivid abduction experiences, but instead of attributing them to actual aliens, I have been able to establish that they are without a doubt sleep paralysis. I know this because my wife has been there to snap me out of it a few times, and she's pretty sure she didn't see any aliens. I have had some discussions with people that think their similar experiences had to be aliens and they refuse to see it as a sleep disorder. People will approach things from different angles, and we have to understand that.
I prefer to go with the explanation that seems the most logical.
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Voyager
Guest
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
Then you realize what a mistake it is to regulate all such experiences to a sleep disorder, particularly the cases where the individuals were not asleep.
Voyager for example, unless I have misunderstood him, is wide awake during his experiences.
Is this really about extraterrestrials or just some aspect of life on Earth that we do not yet understand or have an actual frame of reference for? It is a scientific fact that we are surrounded by a plethora of natural phenomena that is imperceptible to human beings other than through the use of methods that map them to one our senses through the use of technology.
Knowing that we are blind to a large part of the reality that we exist in causes me to think that the source of the phenomena could very well be local to Earth. The ants in the nest out in the back lawn don't know I exist or have any clue as to complex society that surrounds them. Things appear in their sky, unseen forces rip up their nests, and strange illnesses befall the colony occasionally causing them move to another part of the yard. In all that they are ignorant of my existence or that I own the ground they live in.
I am not above entertaining the notion that some of these experiences are due to contact with something outside our sphere of perception that could represent a civilization or species of an entirely different order than human beings.
One friend of mine who eventually shared his experiences with me put it this way, "When this sort of thing happens to you, you realize that human beings are not at the top of the food chain after all." When that giant of a guy said that to me there was no mistaking how deeply and strongly he felt about it. He had seen them in his home and he had observed UFOs in the presence of other witnesses.
There is more going on out there than we can casually observe. Are some of these kinds of experiences hints that something we can't perceive is minding the farm that we don't even know we're on? I don't know and how could you tell other than a process of elimination of prosaic explanations. That said, I would wager that Voyager is not experiencing sleep paralysis.
Angel of Ioren
Friendly Skeptic
I was saying for my particular experience, and ones that are similar, I personally think that the vast majority can be sleep paralysis.
Voyager's are quite different and I really have no issue with just saying that I don't know what it can be. That's all we really can say for sure.
Voyager's are quite different and I really have no issue with just saying that I don't know what it can be. That's all we really can say for sure.
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
I too suspect that a large number of all paranormal phenomena can be attributed to misidentification. I also think there is something to the alien abduction and UFO/UFO occupant phenomena that goes beyond that. As I rattled on about again in the previous post, I can in theory, see the mechanism that allows for paranormal phenomena and the existence of extra-human sensory real world events, objects, and animal species that doesn't violate accepted science (as far as I can tell anyway).
Mike - did you feel that you were bodily paralysed before you saw the grey? To me, because I've had it, that might be sleep paralysis? I had an 'abduction' thing in which I 'knew' there were aliens behind me and I was convinced I was supposed to be knocked out - along with about another 100 males, all 20's and single. Don't know how I knew these things but they seemed self-evident. In an instant it felt like they were interested in reproduction. I did not see any type of alien at all directly but I heard something behind me being active. I was pretending to be still asleep and did not try to see anything. I wonder what I would have seen had I had the nerve to look behind me. It was so real at the time, and now, that trying to sneak a peak seemed to risky. Nothing about the experience actually seemed dream-like and even though I side with my experience just being my brain, I can imagine that had it been a notch or two more 'direct' I could easily join the ranks of people who are convinced they have been abducted.
I think Budd Hopkins and John Mack both said that even if there is no truth to an ET aspect of the abduction phenomena, it is still a subject very worthy of study - the sheer volume of people reporting weird experiences utterly out of the norm is weird enough.
I can empathise with how real a sleep paralysis experience is and really there is no way for the person having it to tell truth from reality with any surety because if something feels as real as real, then what is real?
I think there are UFO's in that there are non-human or non-terrestrial pilots in some of them. To me it follows they may be interested in our intelligent species on earth. So for me, abductions and experimentation would follow on naturally from thinking 'they' are here. So even though my 'experience' may be nothing more than sleep paralysis along with having seen the x-files, I do not discount that it happens.
I know this - sleep paralysis can be terrifying alone, without any bloody greys showing up!
Voyager - did you see the film from Ireland of two white spheres appearing to coordinate their movements on a horizontal plane up in the sky, whilst acting as if they were at opposite ends of a shortening wire between them, whilst rotating about an apparent fixed point in space? The 'dance' as I call it was too precise to be aircraft etc, so barring a fraud, could those spheres be like the ones you are seeing?
As you say, your experience is ongoing - I'm sure you've thought of it but maybe you should tie a camera to your wrist so you don't miss any in the future!
I have been noticing of late that quite a few 'experiencers' of UFO sightings claim there can be a large part of 'volunteering' to have sightings - as if, if you want to see them, you can. Arthur C. Clarke thought that almost anyone who takes notice of the sky around them will eventually see something like a UFO. It is mostly cloudly where I live which may explain the very low count of sightings in my part of Scotland. If I google 'Aberdeen, Scotland' with 'UFO'.....well either UFOs give my city a bodyswerve or it's too hard to see the damn things.
If I lived maybe in a large flat area with lots of sunny days, I may do a Ray Stanford in systematically trying to capture images of these objects. Sweet F.A point doing it here though.
I think Budd Hopkins and John Mack both said that even if there is no truth to an ET aspect of the abduction phenomena, it is still a subject very worthy of study - the sheer volume of people reporting weird experiences utterly out of the norm is weird enough.
I can empathise with how real a sleep paralysis experience is and really there is no way for the person having it to tell truth from reality with any surety because if something feels as real as real, then what is real?
I think there are UFO's in that there are non-human or non-terrestrial pilots in some of them. To me it follows they may be interested in our intelligent species on earth. So for me, abductions and experimentation would follow on naturally from thinking 'they' are here. So even though my 'experience' may be nothing more than sleep paralysis along with having seen the x-files, I do not discount that it happens.
I know this - sleep paralysis can be terrifying alone, without any bloody greys showing up!
Voyager - did you see the film from Ireland of two white spheres appearing to coordinate their movements on a horizontal plane up in the sky, whilst acting as if they were at opposite ends of a shortening wire between them, whilst rotating about an apparent fixed point in space? The 'dance' as I call it was too precise to be aircraft etc, so barring a fraud, could those spheres be like the ones you are seeing?
As you say, your experience is ongoing - I'm sure you've thought of it but maybe you should tie a camera to your wrist so you don't miss any in the future!
I have been noticing of late that quite a few 'experiencers' of UFO sightings claim there can be a large part of 'volunteering' to have sightings - as if, if you want to see them, you can. Arthur C. Clarke thought that almost anyone who takes notice of the sky around them will eventually see something like a UFO. It is mostly cloudly where I live which may explain the very low count of sightings in my part of Scotland. If I google 'Aberdeen, Scotland' with 'UFO'.....well either UFOs give my city a bodyswerve or it's too hard to see the damn things.
If I lived maybe in a large flat area with lots of sunny days, I may do a Ray Stanford in systematically trying to capture images of these objects. Sweet F.A point doing it here though.
V
Voyager
Guest
With all due respect I don't have a problem with you being skeptical about things. I get so disgusted listening to people babble total bullshit. A person's senses become inundated with nonsense, and somtimes, you just have to filter out the nutrients and discard the rest. The people in this forum are interested in UFOs and I have tried to provide some insight.
V
Voyager
Guest
Mike - did you feel that you were bodily paralysed before you saw the grey? To me, because I've had it, that might be sleep paralysis? I had an 'abduction' thing in which I 'knew' there were aliens behind me and I was convinced I was supposed to be knocked out - along with about another 100 males, all 20's and single. Don't know how I knew these things but they seemed self-evident. In an instant it felt like they were interested in reproduction. I did not see any type of alien at all directly but I heard something behind me being active. I was pretending to be still asleep and did not try to see anything. I wonder what I would have seen had I had the nerve to look behind me. It was so real at the time, and now, that trying to sneak a peak seemed to risky. Nothing about the experience actually seemed dream-like and even though I side with my experience just being my brain, I can imagine that had it been a notch or two more 'direct' I could easily join the ranks of people who are convinced they have been abducted.
I think Budd Hopkins and John Mack both said that even if there is no truth to an ET aspect of the abduction phenomena, it is still a subject very worthy of study - the sheer volume of people reporting weird experiences utterly out of the norm is weird enough.
I can empathise with how real a sleep paralysis experience is and really there is no way for the person having it to tell truth from reality with any surety because if something feels as real as real, then what is real?
I think there are UFO's in that there are non-human or non-terrestrial pilots in some of them. To me it follows they may be interested in our intelligent species on earth. So for me, abductions and experimentation would follow on naturally from thinking 'they' are here. So even though my 'experience' may be nothing more than sleep paralysis along with having seen the x-files, I do not discount that it happens.
I know this - sleep paralysis can be terrifying alone, without any bloody greys showing up!
Voyager - did you see the film from Ireland of two white spheres appearing to coordinate their movements on a horizontal plane up in the sky, whilst acting as if they were at opposite ends of a shortening wire between them, whilst rotating about an apparent fixed point in space? The 'dance' as I call it was too precise to be aircraft etc, so barring a fraud, could those spheres be like the ones you are seeing?
As you say, your experience is ongoing - I'm sure you've thought of it but maybe you should tie a camera to your wrist so you don't miss any in the future!
I have been noticing of late that quite a few 'experiencers' of UFO sightings claim there can be a large part of 'volunteering' to have sightings - as if, if you want to see them, you can. Arthur C. Clarke thought that almost anyone who takes notice of the sky around them will eventually see something like a UFO. It is mostly cloudly where I live which may explain the very low count of sightings in my part of Scotland. If I google 'Aberdeen, Scotland' with 'UFO'.....well either UFOs give my city a bodyswerve or it's too hard to see the damn things.
If I lived maybe in a large flat area with lots of sunny days, I may do a Ray Stanford in systematically trying to capture images of these objects. Sweet F.A point doing it here though.
V
Voyager
Guest
[/FONT]
I'm very disappointed. I had expected Mike to come back with some spectacular feedback.
Just up, and i'll try and answer all the questions, if i miss any poke me
Yes its more or less lifesized.
Yes paralysed except for my eyes which could move
And i can only reiterate i dont know what it was i experienced, ive related what i experienced as i experienced it.
The parameters fit both SP and abduction/contact. so i dont know which it was, and would never presume to insist it was one or the other.
Kim, yet again your observational powers have let you down, what i said was
The question being are you ready to meet them. That statement had nothing to do with my experience which since i dont know what happened remains (for me at least) an unknown.
Youve tried to twist those words to make it look like im being inconsistant in my narrative.
My answer, as i clearly said to the question are you ready to meet them is not hypothetical.
I am most definately willing to try to meet "them" should the chance arise.
Wether SP or the real deal, the experience has served as a dry run so to speak, I would hope the "shock" factor of any first experience would not kick in in such a scenario.
Having said that there are aspect of the experience that i wonder about, such as a Dr observing about 4 hours later that i appeared to be in shock
Yes its more or less lifesized.
Yes paralysed except for my eyes which could move
And i can only reiterate i dont know what it was i experienced, ive related what i experienced as i experienced it.
The parameters fit both SP and abduction/contact. so i dont know which it was, and would never presume to insist it was one or the other.
Kim, yet again your observational powers have let you down, what i said was
The question being are you ready to meet them. That statement had nothing to do with my experience which since i dont know what happened remains (for me at least) an unknown.
Youve tried to twist those words to make it look like im being inconsistant in my narrative.
My answer, as i clearly said to the question are you ready to meet them is not hypothetical.
I am most definately willing to try to meet "them" should the chance arise.
Wether SP or the real deal, the experience has served as a dry run so to speak, I would hope the "shock" factor of any first experience would not kick in in such a scenario.
Having said that there are aspect of the experience that i wonder about, such as a Dr observing about 4 hours later that i appeared to be in shock
[/FONT]
I'm very disappointed. I had expected Mike to come back with some spectacular feedback.
Its pure speculation, but if they have a hive mind then a mind meld as you put it might be difficult for us to handle at first, mentally navigating this new paradigm might take some time to master.
A bit like someone learning to use a computer/internet for the first time.
You would need to learn what apps, do what and then the parameters of those apps
Hive mind....mmmm... 'Dark Skies' remains one of my fav TV shows on the topic of ET visitation. Can't remember the actress' name right now but loenguards wife was un uber-babe. And then Jeni Ryan (also of Star Trek Voyager fame) come on the go. Two utterly different but extremely attractive girls. And they were not there just cos of looks - I happen to think they can both act well. JT Walsh was a fantastic actor too and went before his time.
Kim323
Paranormal Maven
Mike, I was being sympathetic to your experience, and it oozes from every pore of my post. I was just confused, and you confirm it in your post again just above, why (with great emphasis,why) you still entertain the possibility that it could have been an alien you saw. You did see it, you created a darn accurate facsimile of it that I assume has bonded with your stormtrooper, so you did see it. The question I ask is why you even leave room in the list of possibilities that it was a creature/alien/entity and not what researchers have maintained: that it was something in your mind and not an objective, freestanding, separate entity. Kim
Leaving the room is one way to conduct an experiment to determine if its SP.
And your sig is over the top, it fills up half a page which is going to make wading through any threads you post in, tedious. And you got this wrong
Not differences, outright contradictions........ inconsistancys that invalidate them
Contradictions of the Gospel
And before anyone starts with the offtopic rants, im not the one whos introduced a half page of superstitious twaddle to every post he makes in any thread here.
Kim you are on my ignore list, i can no longer see your stupid posts so dont bother directing comments at me
And your sig is over the top, it fills up half a page which is going to make wading through any threads you post in, tedious. And you got this wrong
Not differences, outright contradictions........ inconsistancys that invalidate them
Contradictions of the Gospel
And before anyone starts with the offtopic rants, im not the one whos introduced a half page of superstitious twaddle to every post he makes in any thread here.
Kim you are on my ignore list, i can no longer see your stupid posts so dont bother directing comments at me
Kim323
Paranormal Maven
So, mike actually gives credence to the possibility that there's a fifty/fifty, yes/no possibility that an actual being (of some sort) existed objectively in his bedroom? That he's really wondering that? Even giving that a two percent chance is, well......... My first post in this thread was very sympathetic, and Angelo seemed to think so, too. I just asked you a question, mike. Kim