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A question for Mike:

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Kim - all the points in your signature still do not address (for me) the fundamental question about Christianity, namely whether Jesus (I believe there was such a jew who was a reformer and that's all) is actually a given 'son of god' and therefore a supernatural being or not. It can only be one way or the other. One way has the whole of Christianity based on a fact and the other way has it based on a lie (the Godly status and origin of Jesus of Nazareth).
All the scholarly study of Biblical texts ever undertaken will never provide a clue as to the answer to my question above. Of course I realise that religious people don't usually talk about evidence and truth but more of faith. As long as that distinction is clear, I am fine with people's faith. Because no-one alive today was there with Jesus. How many words in the Bible (N.T) were written by people with first hand experience of the 'miracles' which lets face it, are the things most likely to make people believe someone is a supernatural born-of-a-virgin son of God?

Kim, I have respect for the fact that you put your points across and that you do not to pretend to know the absolute truth.
But in your signature, say lets take number 12. You basically state Jesus' miracles, healings and exorcisms as if they were a proved fact. But nobody can say that unless they were there and even then they could have been fooled. It goes on right now all round the world. People all over India travel about performing miracles which have been systematically debunked. It is beyond hearsay of the 100th degree now (Bible). Please, even if these things are your beliefs, which you are most entitled to have, can we keep what is 'faith' and provable fact separate please?
For instance, Mike has far more reason to think an ET was in his house than you do for believing anything in the Bible to be true. It happened to him. Nothing biblical happened to you (unless you are holding out on us?;)) and whilst it may be unlikely in your mind (and maybe mine) that an ET was in Mike's house, the fact is he has a memory of something. For you, you seem to put more credence on a book of many authors written a long time ago in the Middle East when we were far less scientifically savvy and able to spot fakery etc against first hand accounts from someone none of us, thus far, have any reason to believe is lying.

Just some thoughts Kim.:)
 
As ive said i had an "experience" which was visually as described and depicted.
Im confident i wasnt having a nightmare/dream. That i was wide awake and was looking around the room.
The event was intense, and had a profound and lasting effect on me that others observed in my bearing hours later.

Ive never claimed to know what happened, because i dont know.

In relating my experience ive had people say its classic SP and others saying its classic abduction.

Until proven to be one or the other or something else, i stand by the most honest opinion i have

"i dont know"
 
"...you are on my ignore list, I can no longer see your stupid posts ..."

Awesome- until now, I didn't realize the forum had that feature.
You just click on the undesirable poster's avatar, and there it is.
Afterwards, they are silenced until you choose otherwise. Nice!
 
Goggsmackay, I can't answer your questions, and yes, faith figures in, too. But, yes, there have been scholarly studies of Jesus's deeds. I've suggested John P. Meier's book, A Marginal Jew, the second volume dealing with Jesus's exorcism, healings, and miracles. My signature was not meant to bring this up in every thread I post in. I don't mean it to offend. I did go through a bruising battle on the Jesus thread about Jesus, but don't post there anymore, and it's probably best, as Tyder says, that the topic at least lie dormant for a while! My signature was not meant to antagonize Mike. Both of us are rather raw with each other. My first post about his experience was very sympathetic to his experience, and Angelo felt I had brought up some good points. Yet Mike immediately accused me of twisting what he said, and I hadn't. So, yes, I got a bit chiding myself, he got more upset, blasted my signature, and is now ignoring me, which is of such grief inducing impact on me that I am on the verge of tears, that Mike would ignore me. I'm just crushed with grief and loss! Kidding, of course. I follow a lot of threads here, don't comment on many, but I have noticed a real lack of civility on the forum. It makes me wonder if the "guests" I see in the numbers of tens, twenties, and thirties on the forum at any given time are afraid to actually join. I've been a member since 2006, but posted only very rarely until the Jesus thread, and I'm pretty surprised at the venom. Anyway, Goggsmackay, I've enjoyed your posts, and I probably better avoid the Jesus topic for a bit. Oh, and I saw you're from Scotland! I remember a summer between college semesters decades ago traveling in England and southern Scotland on the train and doing the youth hostel thing. I remember asking an old gentleman, polite as he could be, where this particular address was, the location of the hostel. I swear I could hardly understand a word he was saying. One of my favorite actors is Ewan McGregor (spelling?) and wow, I love the Scottish actress Kelly McDonald. What a doll. I love the Scottish accent, but I guess it's we Americans who have the true accent. I just watched a movie with Colin Farrell (I know he's Irish), an American one, and I've watched Ewan in American movies, too, where they rid themselves of their accents. How do they do that? I want to revisit Scotland and go further north. Kim
 
Sentry said:
"...you are on my ignore list, I can no longer see your stupid posts ..."

Awesome- until now, I didn't realize the forum had that feature.
You just click on the undesirable poster's avatar, and there it is.
Afterwards, they are silenced until you choose otherwise. Nice!
Click to expand...

Its the first time ive used the function, but i'll be damned if i have to scroll past a half page sig of religious rubbish everytime he posts
 
Yes, that signature is reallllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllly long!:p Read my post above to Goggsmackay. The signature wasn't meant to offend, and doesn't begin to compare with the length of some posts that have whole articles in them, not that I am complaining about that because it's oftentimes good stuff, just that the length of my signature is hardly a big scroll. Kim
 
Accents are funny things. I am southern born and bread. Irish/British/German Heck I don't know. My last name in Ireland has one letter changed to a y and in Colorado a German lady told me I had a German name. Anyway, I as in Colorado for a little while and got used to the Midwestern All American accent. I came back to Alabama for a visit and we went to our favorite catfish resturant. The waiter came over and asked if I wanted "sweet tea" but it was in the southern dialect of my youth and I honestly didn't unerstand him for a minute. It came out to as "sweaat Tae" We tend to make our "a's" long in parts of the south. Matter of fact in Colorado somebody once asked me if I was from Australia. :p Sorry off topic again.

Jesus Lives
Darwin Rocks
Dawkins is gawd
You have been Saganized!

The thing you would not have done to you. Do not do to others. The Buddha
Now I'm not a religious man, but if you're up there Superman. Help Me! ...Homer Simpson.
 
Kim323 said:
Goggsmackay, I can't answer your questions, and yes, faith figures in, too. But, yes, there have been scholarly studies of Jesus's deeds. I've suggested John P. Meier's book, A Marginal Jew, the second volume dealing with Jesus's exorcism, healings, and miracles. My signature was not meant to bring this up in every thread I post in. I don't mean it to offend. I did go through a bruising battle on the Jesus thread about Jesus, but don't post there anymore, and it's probably best, as Tyder says, that the topic at least lie dormant for a while! My signature was not meant to antagonize Mike. Both of us are rather raw with each other. My first post about his experience was very sympathetic to his experience, and Angelo felt I had brought up some good points. Yet Mike immediately accused me of twisting what he said, and I hadn't. So, yes, I got a bit chiding myself, he got more upset, blasted my signature, and is now ignoring me, which is of such grief inducing impact on me that I am on the verge of tears, that Mike would ignore me. I'm just crushed with grief and loss! Kidding, of course. I follow a lot of threads here, don't comment on many, but I have noticed a real lack of civility on the forum. It makes me wonder if the "guests" I see in the numbers of tens, twenties, and thirties on the forum at any given time are afraid to actually join. I've been a member since 2006, but posted only very rarely until the Jesus thread, and I'm pretty surprised at the venom. Anyway, Goggsmackay, I've enjoyed your posts, and I probably better avoid the Jesus topic for a bit. Oh, and I saw you're from Scotland! I remember a summer between college semesters decades ago traveling in England and southern Scotland on the train and doing the youth hostel thing. I remember asking an old gentleman, polite as he could be, where this particular address was, the location of the hostel. I swear I could hardly understand a word he was saying. One of my favorite actors is Ewan McGregor (spelling?) and wow, I love the Scottish actress Kelly McDonald. What a doll. I love the Scottish accent, but I guess it's we Americans who have the true accent. I just watched a movie with Colin Farrell (I know he's Irish), an American one, and I've watched Ewan in American movies, too, where they rid themselves of their accents. How do they do that? I want to revisit Scotland and go further north. Kim
Click to expand...

Yeah Kim, I am fine dropping the religion topic for the time being (I think!)- people have debated it forever and no doubt will continue to do so. My sincere hope is whatever Mike or you have argued about is that he will un-ingore you, if only to talk about other things.
If you ever did travel to Scotland again, I would gladly point out things worth seeing, things not always on the tourist trail - but my region of Scotland is where Queen Victoria decided to make her Scottish Holiday home (castle) - so it can't be all bad! (I'm no Royalist but once introduced myself to Prince Charles who gave me 5mins of his time to chat naval - much to the obvious chagrin of his bodyguards. The two princes, Harry and William seem to have inherited their mother's charm and the are overwhelmingly liked over here, regardless of where people stand on the monarchy - and both are serving in the forces too, which I respect. Bit off topic there but there you go.

Seriously though Kim, it is an awful lot of text to have on a signature and it is like death by powerpoint. Perhaps an abbreviated version? To me, the content is of no import as it is your own, however because the text is copied when replied to etc it's length is making a lot of text that no-one needs to re-read after the first time. My 2 cents from Kent Brockman (or close).:)
 
No consideration for everyone elses bandwidth........ trolling pure and simple.

It derails every topic he posts in..... Its off topic and nothing more than a trolls tactic
It takes the discussion on jesus out of its thread, and derails as it has here.
But that was the purpose, to contaminate the whole place with his nonsense

*deleted*
 
There, you were right, Goggsmackay. I never would have made it as a newspaper writer. That's more concise, anyway. What's your feel over in Scotland on this vote I'm reading about in the next year or so about Scotland becoming somewhat independent of the rest of the UK? I mean, I know Scotland was an independent kingdom for centuries, and that you guys gave Henry VIII and other English kings real grief, especially with Scotland's getting along with France a bit better than England usually did! I only read a touch about this vote or if it finally will take place, and it involves I've heard just certain aspects of the relationship. And Tyder, my parents grew up in Louisiana, and my dad would drive the whole family EVERY summer (both my parents were teachers) through the southwest to visit relatives there throughout my childhood. I love southern food and don't cringe when I say I drink buttermilk right from the carton, love the stuff. I bake a lot of cornbread, just like my mom did. I have an old ambrotype photograph of my great great grandfather that was passed to me. It shows him at eighteen just after he joined an Alabama regiment. He's got a long bowie knife in his military belt, a long rifle with bayonet, and wearing a long and long sleeved gray coat. He was at the battles of South Mountain, Seven Pines, Sharpsburg, Chancellorsville, and was severely wounded at Gettysburg. He's buried in the little cemetery of the town my mother grew up in. Another great great grandpappy was in the battle of the Wilderness in a Georgia regiment and lost his arm. I have a photo of him as an elderly gentleman standing very erect and dignified in a suit, with his long mustache, his hat held in his left hand and his right arm, well, the long sleeve of his suit is just hanging there completely empty! That war was just plain brutal, on both sides. So many hundreds of thousands of young men wounded, maimed, and dead. I love the South. Long live Scotland and the South. May they rise again! Sorry, got carried away again. Kim
 
Kim - on the Scottish Independence question I am very firmly pro-status quo. I think the size of our Islands makes it better to have one country. Scotland+England=more than the sum, IMO. Also, getting down to brass tacks, all the problems about money, border, different laws (we have anyway), immigration and very importantly - the still 40 years of so of North Sea oil extraction.
With the best will in the world - the whole thing would degenerate into what is basically a divorce between two countries. Never gonna be clean, quick thing. In Scotland we can make most laws with our devolved parliament - for instance, in Scotland ALL medical prescriptions are absolutely free no matter how much or who for. We also abolished tuition fees for students. These are two decisions made by the government in Edinburgh over which we justifiably proud.
There is one man at the head of the independence train. He is local to my area and a real worry for those in the Westminster Parliament because basically, he is something to be feared. A man with real conviction, buckets of brains and facts, charismatic and pretty much always comes off better in a debate with an opponent. I do not vote for him solely because I don't support independence. The first King of the United Kingdom was a Scottish King so on that score it's never felt here that a foreign power came here and stamped it's authority.
We are a technological country with a proud history of engineering worldwide - and while there is oil just off the coast of where I live, we may be fine financially (and the rest of the UK) but afterwards? Not sure how Scotland (and the US etc) can ever compete with countries such as China and India in as much as they are now as technological as us but their lack of real social care allows them to use quasi-slave labour. When it comes to the price of goods It is a disgrace so many European and North American countries have moved production to these places when they know full well the workers are not looked after as they are here - hence being much cheaper. I don't know the answer to that.

Anyway - you seem to have abbreviated your signature......where did you get that idea? :rolleyes:

No offence to anywhere in the States but due to circumstance and work I've spent a fair amount of time in the southern states and in my opinion, the welcome there is far more genuine than in the bustling metropolis' of LA or New York, both of which I love too.
United States citizens if anything really have one of the best countries in the world if not the best when it comes to accessible geographical features. Giant trees, great plains, swamps, arid deserts, wet forests, mountains, beaches, islands, fantastic rivers. If I had been born in the States I probably would vacation in a different part every year. It really is a fantastic place and it is no surprise you have so many people wishing to live there. A difficult question for the US. A country that was built by immigrants, is a melting pot of the people of the world but at what point is a country over-burdened by illegal immigrants - they are actually a pretty vital part of the economy in many places but I suppose a point is reached where immigration is too much. Our population is dwindling and my own Scottish Government reached out to Eastern Europe, esp Poland for people willing to work to come at our request to live and work here. Quite different eh?
So Polish is now a language, previously never really spoken here that is now ubiquitous. The Polish people I have met and worked with so far are lovely, great neighbours and work-mates but I wonder what would happen if it got to a point where people demanded street signs to be bi-lingual, like in Quebec.....?
 
Bottom line, you've backed off on your own experience in this thread. My post on it was very sympathetic and Angelo felt I brought up great points on your experience, but you got mad and said I was twisting your words and left mad about my signature. That signature is simply stating fact, which fact is making you post tons of bandwidth on the Jesus thread against what scholars agree are the outside sources for Jesus. This thread is about your experience but you have filled it with your anger about me. Now, mike, you have backed off on my question. Why do you even entertain the tiniest possibility that your sculpture actually appeared as an entity in your room? Pretty bizarre stuff. And you ridicule others about their beliefs? If you will even entertain that an alien appeared to you, you will believe anything, but your version of what I just said was profane and vile and hateful. This is your thread, mike. Let's talk about your alien. It exists on the same level of reality as your stormtrooper. Did you read the two links I gave about sleep paralysis? Angelo felt I had some great points. There, your thread is back to you, mike. Kim
 
Kim, again I have to quickly say that for me the probability of intelligent elsewhere in the universe approaches 1.

Even if it might be a small chance, a visiting alien need not be anything supernatural whatsoever, just more advanced than us due to time. Is it more likely a woman gave birth as a virgin and had a son who is actually the sole actual son of God, who can defy physics in walking on water etc?

To me half the stuff in all religious texts is more difficult to believe than sentient beings visiting us. Why would God make the universe so huge if the sole intelligence has little chance of even seeing one percent of it? What is the point of all the stars and planets that are at the other side of the observable universe. If life is God-given, then I like to think he gave it freely and all over....what if we made contact with an ET race and we found that they believe in an all-powerful creator too? Remember, the Vatican has officially already said that ET life is not incompatible with Christianity.
 
Actually from what ive read of the alleged aliens answer to the question does god exist.
The answer is NO.

And thats a huuuuuge issue, if the superstitious natives of earth are told by ET , "nope sorry no such thing" then they deal with that via their superstition ie ET must be demons then.

seriously which "god" are they going to confirm.... all of them

  1. Christianity: 2.1 billion
  2. Islam: 1.3 billion
  3. Hinduism: 900 million
  4. Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
  5. Buddhism: 376 million
  6. African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
  7. Sikhism: 23 million
  8. Juche: 19 million
  9. Spiritism: 15 million
  10. Judaism: 14 million
  11. Baha'i: 7 million
  12. Jainism: 4.2 million
  13. Shinto: 4 million
  14. Cao Dai: 4 million
  15. Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
  16. Tenrikyo: 2 million
  17. Neo-Paganism: 1 million
  18. Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
  19. Rastafarianism: 600 thousand
  20. Scientology: 500 thousand
Click to expand...
If you believe in God, you have chosen to reject Allah, Vishnu, Budda, Waheguru and all of the thousands of other gods that other people worship today
Click to expand...

Thousands of em ?
Godchecker.com - Your Guide To The Gods

Or is it more likely they will say "none of em"

A rational person rejects all human gods equally, because all of them are equally imaginary. How do we know that they are imaginary? Simply imagine that one of them is real. If one of these thousands of gods were actually real, then his followers would be experiencing real, undeniable benefits. These benefits would be obvious to everyone. The followers of a true god would pray, and their prayers would be answered. The followers of a true god would therefore live longer, have fewer diseases, have lots more money, etc. There would be thousands of statistical markers surrounding the followers of a true god.
Click to expand...

I cant believe this superstitious nonsense has to pollute the UFO discussion
 
Goggsmackey, I agree very much with you that Christianity and intelligent life elsewhere is compatible. My point on this thread about mike is that respect has to be shown to Christians and their beliefs with which science is not at all at war. The point on this thread, mike, is that you have indisputably questioned that what happened to you MAY be alien visitation/abduction, which I think points to the legitimacy of questions about YOUR OWN faculties of rational endeavor. Again, did you read my two links in my first post in this thread? It's time that you examined your own rationality in light of your experience, and get away for just a few seconds even from your huge anger and contempt for Christians and Christianity. Let's stay on the topic of your thinking that an alien may have visited you, there in Australia. I'm talking about the phenomenon of alien abduction, which you have specifically left very much open as an explanation for your experience. Kim
 
I kinda agree about polluting a UFO discussion but sometimes Mike, I just can't help myself when I get 'stuck in' to the religious crowd :confused:. The, for me, glaringly obvious HUGE flaws in all religions almost make them laughable - but I can't bring myself to actually laugh at them, for some very loved family members are practising Christians and thankfully they are far from the Bible-thumping type. They do not seek to convert or even quote scripture - ever (Phew!).
Why do otherwise sane, intelligent, sometimes scientific people continue to be religious? It baffles me and I am on a quest to try and get a decent answer. It could be just like the UFO poster ' I want to believe' popularised in Fox Mulder's FBI office - some people genuinely spend half their lives worrying about what happens after we die. I think it might be nice to inhabit a new totally different type of existence or something but really I think being dead is like what it was like one year before your own birth. Zero, zip, nada, nothing and as long as I cannot feel any passage of time etc then I am happy with death being the end.

Actually, I really do NOT want to live forever in some 'heaven' populated with religious people (well, many of them, not all) - I cannot imagine a worse fate! Do people get how long 'eternity' is? Multiply the age of the universe thus far by whatever number you can be arsed to state and the result will still be indistinguishable from being next to zero percent of eternity. That long in heaven with the 'holier than thou' religious types? No thanks God, thanks for the offer though, very generous for sure....:rolleyes:

Mike, it's 7.55am where I am on a saturday morning (got up naturally) and here am I posting about religion AGAIN. Sorry, I just can't help myself sometimes. Religion is a pet topic which I love to debate but you are right in that there is no reason it cannot be conducted in it's own threads and not hi-jacking other debates.
It just slips out (oo-er missus) sometimes....!
 
Well good luck with that mate, but you dont need to be psychic to predict kim is going to try and spin any topic into a religious debate.
Unable to actually debate and refute any of the evidence ive posted in the appropriate thread, he will stalk and snipe at me thru the rest of the forum, using any pretext to make the discussion about religion.

I dont suffer fools gladly, so i'll retire from this bullshit for the forseeable future
 
Mike, read my post just above about sticking to your alien visitation experience. I have. Voyager, it seems to me, began another thread because he has had experiences, and I see you have already been sarcastic to him when he says something that smacks of the metaphysical (your word). Fact remains, this is your thread, you brought your anti-Christian personal stuff into it, but will not explain how your own capacity for rational thought should not be questioned when you hypothesize that it COULD BE an actual alien visitation you experienced. Kim
 
one year before your own birth. Zero, zip, nada, nothing

Gotta disagree there. I have had "memories" and other experiences all my life. So, a year before I was born. This will sound silly but I'm gonna say it anyway. May have been in a nursing home. A battle field, a lovers arms, In pure spirit or conscinuness. Sorry, to lazy to spell check this AM. Anyway, nothing religious about it. I don't care what or who or how you do or don't "believe" But, I absolutely don't think "something ever, ever comes from nothing." But, anyway, I'm an eternal optimist. As for intelligent life from somewhere else? Well, it's a big universe. ;) Although, the alien abduction thing really does seem more of a spiritual experience or a purely pshcological experience to me. But, once you've experienced it I would imagine your views change. That may be the biggest problem between abducties and skeptics. I know in my own life I have experienced things that some on here would laugh at. But, once you experience it a hundred Carl Sagans dancing on the head of a pin won't change the reality of what you experienced.
 
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