Rick Deckard
Paranormal Maven
underdog said:You don't think people were killing people before guns?
That was tough straw man that you knocked down there. Well done.
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underdog said:You don't think people were killing people before guns?
CapnG said:Technically speaking, bullets kill people, the guns are mearly a delivery system...
nikki630 said:And yes -- I do believe that someone's behavior is altered when they have a gun in their hands. They will feel more powerful that makes them much more likely to commit homicide then if they did not have the gun and had to get an A-bomb instead.
underdog said:"People kill people" and rocks, knives, gravity(pushed of a cliff or building), poison, guns...etc...can make it easier. Tools always make things easier, thats why they call them tools.
In the interest of full disclosure–I collect and own many, many firearms (most 80-130 years old) and not one of them has ever been used in anger, used illegally to threaten or make me feel like a "real" man. Guns do not change a person or make the person "feel" more powerful. The person who gets a "rush" out of owning a weapon has some deep seeded psychological issues and yes, probably should not own a firearm. Saying that a gun "empowers" person is like saying a can-opener "empowers" a person. A gun can put food on the table, and it can punch a hole in metal.. with a satisfying plink I might add.
Darn -- now you gone and done it. Now I have to do some research.
OK Here's an article from the New England Journal of Medicine about how owning a firearm is associated with an increased risk of suicide - http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/329/15/1084
From The American Journal of Public Health, concluding that in in areas that people own guns a inordinately large numbers of deaths are from gun related homicides. http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1447364
Owning a gun does not make everyone a homicidal maniac, nor does it insure that you will commit suicide. But I think these articles shows that it does change peoples behavior.
underdog said:Do, I think it is too easy to get a gun in this country...yup. Do I think people have done horrible things in the name of God...you bet. Will forcibly eliminating both from our society be some sort of universal panacea...HELL NO!
So, in this we agree. I have no desire to ban guns -- all I want to see are good sensible gun control laws. Of course we might disagree what those laws look like
I do admit that I think the world would be better off without religion, but that is unlikely. That being said I don't want to ban religion. I just want to keep it out of our government. I have no real issues with the way people want to live their lives -- see my post about the Amish above. The problem I have is when they try to make me live MY life by their rules.
underdog said:If you really want to point the finger, point it at brutality, intolerance, bigotry, hatred, jingoism, when and where they happen, not at inanimate objects or people seeking a PEACEFUL relationship with God.
But much of that hatred is based on religious beliefs. Up above I posted a link to a Rev. Rod Parsley where he declares that America was founded in part to destroy Islam. Rev John Hagee says that Hitler was doing god's work, Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell declared that 9/11 was god's punishment for gays and lesbians in our society. You can argue that these people are not really following the word of god - but many many people use them as their religious touchstone, When John Hagee calls the Catholic Church 'the great whore' , when Pat Robertson says that feminism encourages women to become lesbians and when Jerry Falwell says that Tinky Winky is gay ... their followers believe them because they believe they are speaking for god.
And lets not forget that G. W. Bush believes that god told him to invade Iraq.
But it is not just crazy preachers -- the bible teaches intolerance, most of us are familiar with 'thou shall not suffer a witch to live" Exodus 22:18, but there is more. Exodus 23:24 says that not only should you not worship other gods, but destroy thier images as well. In Exodus, Chapter 34, verses 11-14 and Leviticus, Chapter 26, verses 7-9 god's word encourages genocide. In the new testament there are these passages in Luke 19:27 Jesus calls for the death of those who do not follow him. In 1 Corinthians 10:20-21 Paul says that all gentiles are Satan worshipers. The list goes on and just a little research on the internets will reveal much more.
So you can see how in my mind religion does teach intolerance, hatred and bigotry.
underdog said:In the interest of full disclosure–I collect and own many, many firearms (most 80-130 years old) and not one of them has ever been used in anger, used illegally to threaten or make me feel like a "real" man. Guns do not change a person or make the person "feel" more powerful.
underdog said:The person who gets a "rush" out of owning a weapon has some deep seeded psychological issues and yes, probably should not own a firearm. Saying that a gun "empowers" person is like saying a can-opener "empowers" a person.
underdog said:I think there is a lot of rhetoric out there about guns, religion too. People on both sides have an axe to grind and they don't care about how many facts they have to mangle to force you to see it their way. .... Wise up, get some facts, and make a decision instead of having a reaction.
underdog said:Do, I think it is too easy to get a gun in this country...yup. Do I think people have done horrible things in the name of God...you bet. Will forcibly eliminating both from our society be some sort of universal panacea...HELL NO!
If you really want to point the finger, point it at brutality, intolerance, bigotry, hatred, jingoism, when and where they happen, not at inanimate objects or people seeking a PEACEFUL relationship with God.
underdog said:In the interest of full disclosure–I collect and own many, many firearms (most 80-130 years old) and not one of them has ever been used in anger, used illegally to threaten or make me feel like a "real" man. Guns do not change a person or make the person "feel" more powerful. The person who gets a "rush" out of owning a weapon has some deep seeded psychological issues and yes, probably should not own a firearm. Saying that a gun "empowers" person is like saying a can-opener "empowers" a person.
CapnG said:I would like to add one final thought I have about guns. Guns are not tools, guns are weapons. Some people may not like to make this distinction but it needs to be made.
A hammer is a tool. I can use a hammer as a weapon but that does not make it a weapon. Why? Intent. The intention of the hammer's designer was that it be used as a tool for constructive purposes. The fact that it can be perverted in it's use has no bearing on the hammer.
A gun on the other hand was designed from the start to kill things. Like a sword, it has a singular purpose. So to gun owners I plead: stop calling them tools. It's a weapon, just admit it. I don't care if you own one, or ten or a hundred guns, it's nothing to do with me. Just be honest about what they are, okay?
Rick Deckard said:CapnG said:I would like to add one final thought I have about guns. Guns are not tools, guns are weapons. Some people may not like to make this distinction but it needs to be made.
... Just be honest about what they are, okay?
A very well thought out argument. Kudos to you.
Rick Deckard said:...so ultimately, it's parents that kill people, because they are the one's creating life.
nikki630 said:Actually -- IF you believe in god -- then it is god that kills people because he created people in the first place.
Rick Deckard said:S'funny, 'cos I did start to add stuff about 'His divine plan' to the end of the post then thought better of it...
underdog said:Statistics on gun use are all over the place so I don't trust them much. Usually you can find a statistic that spins any facet of gun ownership in your favor. Does the US have too much gun crime...Of course. I don't quite know why people didn't read where I thought it was too easy to get one. Easy there fellas, were just jawin' here...calm down.
underdog said:I'll state very simply and slowly, again...I am for sane, well vetted gun ownership that includes training for basic proficiency, licensing, background check, and some sort of basic psych evaluation. Relicensing should occur at regular intervals with some sort of testing and basic proficiency shown.
underdog said:Neither do I support the ninnies on the left who somehow think that if we got rid of all firearms, all would be right with the world and the government in all its glory and purity would somehow protect me from all harm. Yeah those government officials go to sleep every night just dreaming of ways they can help me live in harmony...not.
underdog said:Either you believe that a law abiding citizen in a free country should be able to defend themselves, their family, and their home or you don't.
underdog said:I'll state very simply and slowly, again...I am for sane, well vetted gun ownership that includes training for basic proficiency, licensing, background check, and some sort of basic psych evaluation. Relicensing should occur at regular intervals with some sort of testing and basic proficiency shown.