Ancient knowledge, lost or censored ?

[pixelsmith]

I possess nothing but questions. I have no evidence that humans or ET built any ancient structures. Am I to just BELIEVE everything your Dumbass Guide To Knowledge says? Is that your "evidence"? Is it like the Dumbass guide to God called the Bible? We are to just shut up and believe?

 

[Kim323]

Ok, ok, Pixel. I didn't mean to get you frustrated.

I just love history, with a passion, and the historical method, and would be flabbergasted if any of the wonderful structures humans have built were somehow shown to have had ET "input."

The Near Eastern and Middle Eastern nations of antiquity have been a real area of passion for me, exceeded only by the history of the Greeks and Romans, and their structures and works are nothing short of breathtaking.

I'm less familiar with the kingdoms and peoples of the New World, but familiar enough. I was intrigued when you disagreed that the consensus of experts was that Pumapunku was built by, well, the humans who built those structures. Then you entertained the possibility of ETs being involved, so I got even more intrigued.

So I asked you for examples you said you knew of structures built with ET input.

Anyway, I guess we've come full circle.

I was just trying to stay earthbound and rely on what historians, scientists, and scholars have said about human history. Kim

 

[pixelsmith]

I am not frustrated at all.
And I never said I knew of structures built with ET input. I said there were many places that possibly had ET influence, or not. You say you have evidence in the form of a consensus and information from a Dumbass website. I say a consensus does not prove anything.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

What I mean about 'machining' is the use of any powered tool that is not just hand-tools, such as hammers, chisels and suchlike.
Such 'machines' need not have electricity but could be belt-driven rotating cutting edges, possibly powered by animals, humans or water-wheel - things like that.

I shall look out some material for you Kim in which, to this day, there is evidence of tools used to cut exact depths of amazing precision and also perfect radii cut into very hard stone.

I shall get back to you Kim but I think you have mistaken what I said to mean things like our modern-day electrical or petrol driven machinery. Although I rule nothing out, I mean that these ancient sites were supposed to have been made solely with hand-tools, and hand-tools of very bad quality. The metals used were bronze and it is just not hard enough for some precision work.

I think the technology used was more advanced than we are led to believe, but not necessarily on par with current tools.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Check this video out Kim, you will find it interesting. And remember, 'accepted' scientific thinking has interest in the status quo. You wont find 'experts' going against the grain but that does not mean others may not have valid viewpoints.

 

[Kim323]

Hi, Gordon. Yes, I'll be interested in what kind of powered tools could have existed for the construction of the Great Pyramid. I'm somewhat relieved that you've eliminated electricity and oil powered machines as possibilities for the ancient Egyptians.

You intrigue me with your conjecture that these powered tools could have received their capacity to cut from belts driven by waterwheel, animals, or humans. I'm not an engineer, but I'm wondering how those sources could provide the RPMs and sheer muscle to cut and machine stone. And we're still then confronted with the nature of the actual material of the cutting device, bronze you say.

I'm going to do some research to refresh myself on the smelting of iron. I do know it came to different peoples at different times in that whole area in ancient times, by diffusion in some cases, and by independent discovery. And steel came along, too, in some forms, in ancient times. Much harder material.

And you seem to have eliminated any intelligent extraterrestrials from any participation in the construction of the pyramid, either in provision of technology, or even in the capacity of a lesser role as, say, managers, bookkeepers, blueprint drawers, bean counters, and so on. That's a relief.

I will finish watching the video you provided. I'm still trying to get a grip on exactly what it's speculating, but will persevere. It is interesting.

As for "accepted" thinking in science and history, we have to at some point establish some criteria of what constitutes a scholar and an expert. I'm really not aware that any real scholars or experts have bought into anything remotely touching upon the sources or means allegedly attributed to ancient humans for construction of wondrous structures apart from homo sapiens's own wondrous intelligence, skill, ingenuity, and sheer ability to wield a heavy sledgehammer and employ wedges, chisels, fire, cold water, and physics and chemistry concepts that owe nothing at all to vanished races or intelligent extraterrestrials, much less that this ancient "knowledge" was destroyed or suppressed. Excuse that sentence. I would have recommended that a student break that up some, but it gets the point across. Kim

 

[trainedobserver]

When I look at Pumapunku I am impressed by the apparent prefabricated stone interlocking building blocks. To me it indicates a high degree of sophistication in design and manufacturing. The techniques used to fabricate them from the raw material is another story. The supporting infrastructure for such a project encompasses a lot more than just understanding geometry, material properties, or how to motivate and direct the work force. It took a long time for the society that built the thing to just get to the point where it could support such a project. No flash in the pan this.

A sophisticated and highly motivated society built Pumapunku for a very specific and important purpose to them. I don't see any reason to think it wasn't ancient humans. It looks like they possessed some form of industrialization that was lost. They may have manufactured other things that were lost to time but the stones have remained. I personally think these types of things are the remains of previous sophisticated human societies that suffered a decline and destruction from either natural or internal causes.

 

[Kim323]

Hi, Gordon. I did finish the video you suggested above, and took some notes. I did enjoy the video in terms of the actual photography. There is no doubt that humans, using their own ingenuity, strength of will and body, chemical, physical, and mathematical concepts, hammers, smelted iron, chisels, wedges, and I could go on and on because this thread has caused me to do some more research myself to supplement what I already knew, or to fill in details, did indeed construct these fabulous architectural wonders. Hence some of them being, well, called wonders of the world! I could go on and on with more technology and pure human motivation and perseverance that ancient homo sapiens employed to construct wondrous structures across many cultures, great distances, time, and so on.

Of course, as I watched the video, I'll admit it, I was drawn to the little UFO icon in the corner, and the production values of the video, the music, the dialogue, the backpacked Mr. Childress and the engineer Mr. Dunn (and they are likable fellows, no doubt), the cuts here and there, the intoning, I mean, it is quite a video, but at some point, Gordon, you (meaning all of us) have to make some decisions about some sort of cosmology, some worldview, some degree of what you will accept and will not in terms of human history and science. Tradition is not always hidebound, it is often subjected to scathing peer review, and scholars, historians, theologians, scientists, know they have to be courageous and innovative, but also to adhere to some accepted methods of research. But the alternative history "field," the yes, fringe "fields," of science and history are immune to this by the very nature of their "research" and the purveyance of such to the public. Now, don't get me wrong, I did some (more) research into Mr. Childress and Mr. Dunn. Mr. Dunn, from what I can ascertain, is someone indeed I would not reject for advice or even for a project requiring knowledge in tooling, construction, design, and many other things. I mean, I don't presume to possess the knowledge he has.

A leaky faucet causes me to run panicked to the hardware store, imploring, beseeching, demanding in a high whine, the solution to my problem, the exact items I will need to stop the drip, I will catastrophize it and fear the flooding of my very home, and with those items clenched in my fist I will walk out, and taking the advice I have extracted from the unwilling worker at the store, I will endeavor to fix this problem.

And I will experience anticipatory frustration on the drive home, and will curse the faucet, and probably end up calling the plumber.

Give me a passage of Julius Caesar's treatise, in Latin, on Gaul, and I will launch into it with confidence that, though the task be difficult, I will succeed.

So, Mr. Dunn, I will admiringly admit, is not a stupid man, is in fact a skilled man.

And I have read his book, The Giza Power Plant, some years ago.

However, Gordon, I did as I said take notes on this LENGTHY video and here are some quotes and observations that, well, bothered me, in no special order:

1. Referring to the ancient Egyptians, and evidently discerning their thoughts, "we've got all this energy coming through, why don't we harness it?"
2. The pyramid is "a giant machine."
3. "higher frequencies"
4. Referring to, I think it was, the archaeological site in Egypt at Abu Ghurab, "destroyed in some giant cataclysm."
5. The constant phrase, referring to the details of the construction of the pyramid at Giza, and truly breathtaking are the closeups of the work, "how they could" do this and that, and that it "defies explanation."
6. The specific this and that of construction, truly wondrous indeed, but the ancient Egyptians would "have to have modern machinery."
7. And that these aspects of construction were "impossible to make" back then, and
8. "even by modern" techniques, that we, today, would be unable to construct this structure.

I could go on and on, Gordon, and believe me, I got the notes right here.

Another thing that needs, really, to be dispensed with, is this suppression of knowledge refrain that runs through this thread and in this whole alternative history field. It simply is untrue that, ahem, that institution described in a eight letter word beginning in C, marshalling whole armies from Europe, destroyed, suppressed, repressed, and is secretly storing in its archives, this knowledge from vanished races and aliens (whom I think you are discounting, I hope ), OR that knowledge possessed by ancient humans to construct all these wonderful structures, has disappeared through the agency of this institution. I repeat what I've been saying: what humans have constructed in the past, they constructed, using techniques and knowledge clearly independently discovered by their own brains, or in some cases, no doubt, knowledge that was diffused over distances and time, but human nevertheless, AND all within RECORDED and KNOWN historical frameworks, though, of course, we are learning new things, but nothing presuming all that is alleged about human incapacity to construct these wonders.

You know, a little bird alighted on my shoulder yesterday, and told me what I have long suspected: that I, and this video proves it, actually spend time reading, watching, and reading what others say and post, but the little feathered critter told me that my own suggestions for further learning, books and links, are often ignored, but oh well. Kim

 

[trainedobserver]

I think it is safe to say that whatever society built Pumapunku was a sophisticated one that suffered a decline. Their techniques and technology (whatever that may have been) weren't primitive but to contrary extremely effective. Did they have an industrial age with electric tools and so forth? No evidence of that exists that I am aware of at the moment, but I wonder how long ago that really was and what might have turned to dust, rust, and decay that the stones didn't suffer.

The whole Ancient Astronaut thing is an interesting and entertaining angle but one of the primary flaws with the theory is the denigration of mankind and a discounting of our abilities. Humans are natural builders who are re-engineering their environment to suit their needs, sometimes with disastrous results. That ancient human civilizations constructed incredible and seemingly unreproducable engineering feats seems inarguable and I really don't think we needed help to do these things we just needed time and a large enough cache of accumulated knowledge to pull it off. Somewhere back in the mists of the past there apparently was time for such things.

Kim, anytime I hear someone talking about these paranormal or fringe subjects use the words, energy, frequency, Hertz (a fav of LMH), dimension, and so forth I cringe. "Higher Frequencies" falls squarely into the often used and obviously misunderstood terms in the pseudo-scientific lexicon. Good call.

 

[Kieran]

For people who believe the Egyptologists and Skeptics are right as to how the pyramids were build. I would ask you take some time out to watch this video, its brilliant. For me this video shows conclusively for the first time ever we have got it all wrong. Its a new video recently uploaded to Youtube, but i think the content is truly revealing.

Lance and Angel and anyone else who believes the mainstream view of how these structures were build. Watch this video and tell us what you think in a honest and mature way.

This is the third part, but the information in this is simply outstanding.

 

[Aardvark]

Thank You , Kieran. How they were built is one of the great mysteries that remain. You have helped open the door

 

[Kieran]

Thank You , Kieran. How they were built is one of the great mysteries that remain. You have helped open the door

No worries mate if you want to watch the whole video in one go this is it.

 

[Kim323]

You know, I consider myself a tolerant person, and I am.

But, here we go again, and my intolerance for this crackpot stuff grows even more with this video. Excuse the hyperbole, but really.

May I suggest that the alternative history buffs wend their merry way over to the Lost Knowledge thread that was begun recently, where I offered my two cents worth to an interminable video that Gordon suggested to me?

I'm not going to repeat myself, though the temptation is well nigh irresistible.

I watched Mr. Childress and Mr. Dunn as they offered up more baloney on this pyramid construction stuff. I took notes as I watched that video and tried to keep my opinions of the video specific but short on that thread, and I watched the whole thing, as I had this video already elsewhere, and no offense to Kieran. But, please, go check out that other thread.

This video is more of the same. Modern homo sapiens couldn't do it with all of our wondrous technology (and cranes!) at our disposal, so how could people of antiquity?

I'm biting my tongue.

"Sacred lines" indeed of the construction of these, indisputably, wondrous architectural feats, but really, "sacred lines" , and the music pounds as a cut to someone drawing a line circumnavigating a globe.

ARRRGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This fringe stuff is beyond the pale, denigrates ourselves and people of antiquity, and flies in the face of, yes mainstream historians and scientists. But there you have the whole point to the "alternative history field": anything mainstream is automatically suspect in and of itself.

I went back and counted, and sure enough, my effort to sprinkle this post with proverbial phrases succeeded.

There is no evidence whatsoever of the many off the wall hypotheses that are put forward for this stuff. Kim

 

[Kieran]

You know, I consider myself a tolerant person, and I am.

But, here we go again, and my intolerance for this crackpot stuff grows even more with this video. Excuse the hyperbole, but really.

May I suggest that the alternative history buffs wend their merry way over to the Lost Knowledge thread that was begun recently, where I offered my two cents worth to an interminable video that Gordon suggested to me?

I'm not going to repeat myself, though the temptation is well nigh irresistible.

I watched Mr. Childress and Mr. Dunn as they offered up more baloney on this pyramid construction stuff. I took notes as I watched that video and tried to keep my opinions of the video specific but short on that thread, and I watched the whole thing, as I had this video already elsewhere, and no offense to Kieran. But, please, go check out that other thread.

This video is more of the same. Modern homo sapiens couldn't do it with all of our wondrous technology (and cranes!) at our disposal, so how could people of antiquity?

I'm biting my tongue.

"Sacred lines" indeed of the construction of these, indisputably, wondrous architectural feats, but really, "sacred lines" , and the music pounds as a cut to someone drawing a line circumnavigating a globe.

ARRRGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This fringe stuff is beyond the pale, denigrates ourselves and people of antiquity, and flies in the face of, yes mainstream historians and scientists. But there you have the whole point to the "alternative history field": anything mainstream is automatically suspect in and of itself.

I went back and counted, and sure enough, my effort to sprinkle this post with proverbial phrases succeeded.

There is no evidence whatsoever of the many off the wall hypotheses that are put forward for this stuff. Kim

Your obviously one of those people this video talks about a person who is unable to connect the dots. Also Kim i don't follow you around were specifically have you posted this video what thread.

I find it hard to believe you watched this video and believe the crap your saying now. How is it fringe when this stuff was discovered using science. Kim, nothing been said in this video was fringe your having a laugh are you?

 

[Aardvark]

Kieran, I recently encountered a bit of wisdom that just MAY apply to the present quandary:


Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level then beat you with
experience.

 

[Kim323]

Well, I didn't mean to offend you, Kieran.

It's just that this stuff is, indeed, beyond the pale.

I actually read and watch what others post here, as I did Gordon's video of an hour and a half.

I'm going to ask you what I asked Pixel and Gordon, concerning the construction of these and other architectural marvels, and yes, they are, truly, wonders of the world, and no dispute on that, but:

1. What structures, specifically, do you allege were not constructed by, or unable to be constructed by, homo sapiens?
2. What civilizations/cultures, specifically, are the purported builders of these structures, but who, following the thought in #1, are not their builders?
3. Then, who, specifically, did build them?
4. Rewatch the video you posted, and give me the time stops, specifically, where you think good evidence is given for any of this, that is,
5. the science you mention above that points to machining, etc. (and I've heard it all) that homo sapiens of the past were incapable of doing.

I didn't mean that you should follow my posts, Kieran, and sorry for that, but these questions seem to stop others in their tracks, and this stuff just keeps coming up.

Kim

 

[Kim323]

Aardvark, I ask you the same questions, so that we may examine this "present quandry."

They're in my post above to Kieran.

You said in your post that Kieran had "helped open the door," and advised him to not to "argue with an idiot."

I wouldn't want to, as you continued that sage and profound advice so articulately, "drag you down."

I present my questions above, as I did to others who bring up this alternative history stuff.

Kim

 

[Kieran]

The video i uploaded to this thread is not the same video that Gordon uploaded for you to watch (found that other video) I have a life Kim, have not got the whole day, here to spent with you to walk you through the finer points of this video. Your an adult surely you have the ability to figure out things on your own?

Aliens been involved in the construction of the pyramids was not mentioned in the video i uploaded. This may ease some of your concerns.

Experts discuss what they know and have found out and some of the questions you are asking of me are answered. Maybe you should watch the video in entirety first.

 

[Bob Watson]

Have we reproduced the way they were made? I seem to recall thor hyial mined a block transported it and hauled it up a ramp?

 

[Kim323]

Kieran, I call foul, and foul in the most strident terms!

In your post beginning this thread you issue a challenge clearly.

I asked you some basic questions I've asked others on this topic.

Yes, I know you have not specifically attributed to aliens these structures, but, by default, who then did build them in your opinion? Your premise as alleged in this video is that humans cannot have built them, hence my five questions above, one of which is: Who did build them? That's a reasonable question indeed. I am relieved that you have eliminated intelligent extraterrestrials.

But I need information as requested in my questions.

It's not fair, and I strenuously object, to dismiss my questions so cavalierly. Can't you give me any specifics to my questions? Or the time stops in your videos you feel make the case that humans cannot have built these wondrous architectural creations?

I've addressed this stuff before, specifically and generally.

I addressed the video suggested on the other thread, and I bring up that thread because it's the same topic exactly as this one, albeit with the premise by posters on that thread that this knowledge was "lost" or "suppressed" by a particular institution wrongly accused. I offered my views of that video, and to my specific questions on that thread I received, ahem, shall we say less than gentle criticism from one esteemed poster there equivalent to Aardvark's here.

I have just asked for specifics. Specifics that then can indeed be addressed from an historical perspective, an engineering perspective, geological, even a psychological perspective of homo sapiens of antiquity, who through human perseverance, ingenuity, sheer ability to wield heavy hammers, use chisels, and employ concepts of physics, chemistry, engineering, and mathematics, not to speak of good old cold water and fire, and to use the sheer strength of their numbers and motivation, did indeed build countless wonders that impress us today, but impress us in the sense that we are their heirs, and heirs who genuinely admire their ability to themselves build these structures.

I insist, I demand, I plea, I beseech, I implore, I beg, for attentiveness to scholarly research and for specifics. And I will be heard!

I think my questions do indeed, as Aardvark so presciently observed, though unintentionally, bring us to a level where we transcend hours of video and offer specifics. At some point, some decisions have to be arrived at concerning basic concepts and truths of history, and history, science, and so on continue to grow, of course, but certain premises are to be dealt with ruthlessly, without pity or quarter, and evidence is demanded!

Kim