April 4th show - Hopkins, Randle & Jacobs

[Paul Kimball]

Michio Kaku Welcome to Explorations in Science with Dr. Michio Kaku

But if you feel its time to move on, by all means please go ahead.

This is misleading in the extreme. While I don't think Dr. Kaku has ever ruled out the possibility that alien life might have visited, be visiting, or will someday visit here, he is hardly a proponent of the ETH. What's nice about Kaku is that he encourages scientists to keep an open mind - the flip side, however, is that he would demand proof.

I was fortunate to see Kaku speak in London at the RSA last year, and he took my question which was related to his statement that there may well be a galactic conversation going on that we don't understand. I asked him how long it would be before we might be able to "hear" that conversation, and he said centuries at the earliest, given our level of technological development.

Here are two pertinent quotes from Dr. Kaku:

Kaku points out why SETI is truly a silly effort to investigate:

"We could be in the middle of an intergalactic conversation, and we wouldn't even know."

Bingo.

"We are so arrogant, we're so conceited, that we say they must visit us... I don't think so."

Bingo again.

 

[Keiko]

This is misleading in the extreme. While I don't think Dr. Kaku has ever ruled out the possibility that alien life might have visited, be visiting, or will someday visit here, he is hardly a proponent of the ETH. What's nice about Kaku is that he encourages scientists to keep an open mind - the flip side, however, is that he would demand proof.

I was fortunate to see Kaku speak in London at the RSA last year, and he took my question which was related to his statement that there may well be a galactic conversation going on that we don't understand. I asked him how long it would be before we might be able to "hear" that conversation, and he said centuries at the earliest, given our level of technological development.

Here are two pertinent quotes from Dr. Kaku:

Kaku points out why SETI is truly a silly effort to investigate:

"We could be in the middle of an intergalactic conversation, and we wouldn't even know."

Bingo.

"We are so arrogant, we're so conceited, that we say they must visit us... I don't think so."

Bingo again.

I understand the point you are making Paul but I didn't mean to mislead. I was just responding to the claim that " science has long moved past the ideas we talk about here: aliens in spaceships or multi dimensional beings, time travelers, etc."

I think science does still discuss these ideas.

You were indeed fortunate to meet Michiu Kaku and I certainly wouldn't disagree with what he says. However, speaking for myself, I have never thought that ETs MUST visit us in any kind of arrogant or conceited way. I just saw strange craft/lights in the sky a decade ago and basically got interested.

Regards

 

[Paul Kimball]

I understand the point you are making Paul but I didn't mean to mislead. I was just responding to the claim that " science has long moved past the ideas we talk about here: aliens in spaceships or multi dimensional beings, time travelers, etc."

I think science does still discuss these ideas.

That's the flip-side of what people like Kaku say - if there are civilizations "out there" that are far advanced compared to us, then there is nothing to say that they couldn't, or wouldn't, come here at some point. So in that sense, the died-in-the-wool disbelievers are just as bad as the believers. The ETH is a valid working hypothesis, based on the available evidence. What both sides need to realize is that it's just a hypothesis at this point... and probably for the quite forseeable future.

And I can tell you from my own conversations with a number of scientists, they are interested in the UFO phenomenon (as Kaku has said - I paraphrase - how could you not be interested in something that may yield new information at some point), but it is also not the focus of their attention, and for good reason - there are more practical matters to deal with down here that impact on our daily lives, or help further our own development. As one chemist told me once, if there are aliens visiting here, they'll reveal themselves when they're ready. Until then, we need to live our own lives on the assumption that they're not here.

 

[Keiko]

Thanks for the completely irrelevant set of links, none of which deal with UFO's. You do realize that the question of life somewhere in the universe and the question of that life scooting around Earth in saucers are 2 different questions and as you inadvertently show science, for the most part, ignores the latter question now.

And I am still interested in the topic because of the sociological underpinnings--fascinated by how people hold onto the UFO religion despite a dearth of good evidence.

Lance

I know those links were not UFO related but neither was your above claim:

“But science has long moved past the ideas we talk about here: aliens in spaceships or multi dimensional beings, time travelers, etc.”

I was disagreeing with that statement.

I am in the middle of reading Robert Hastings ‘UFOs and Nukes’ and while I concede it is quite a tome, I don’t see it as ‘biblical’ in nature. Perhaps you should consider reading it if you have not already. It consists of 30 years of research and interviews with ex military/airforce about UFO sightings/incidents at US nuclear bases.

Does reading this book mean I am holding onto the UFO religion?

Regards

 

[Andrea]

As for the idea of hybrids being too 'freaking far out' - I don't think anyone would disagree with this is but that doesn't mean it's not correct. Alot of the evidence points to this (including Macks - it's his literal interpretation that differs with Jacobs I believe) so it can't be ruled out unfortunately.
)

On a Lighter Note, here's a quote from I don't remember where: "The proof that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that is hasn't visited us here."

On a "Freaky" Note: I once met a man who told me he had gone out with a model who had vertically slit pupils in her eyes, not round ones. This was in the context of a discussion that had nothing to do w/ aliens, UFO's, hybrids, etc. It was about 20 years ago. I seem to remember hearing this from someone else as well. Also, I had a friend who started being abducted when he was about 8 years old. He told me a couple of stories of encountering beings in his daily life who looked human, but whom he "recognized" as being ET's of some sort. In one of these stories he felt that the impression was coroborated by the other being. I don't remember the details except that one of these incidents occurred in a supermarket. Obviously, no way to confirm this sort of thing. I just thought it was odd.

Again on a Lighter Note: I have a cartoon that shows two little alien creatures with their heads popped up out a flying saucer disk. Maybe it was a Pogo cartoon. Anyway, they've got big round startled looking eyes. little antenna and big noses. The caption says, "...We're here on a search for intelligent....Oh, Never mind!"

 

[Paul Kimball]

Paul,

I don't think practicality has anything to do with it. If there was good evidence, no matter how wildly impractical, it would garner research grants,etc.

The Condon report, which is unfairly vilified by people who know next to nothing about the matter (eerily mirroring the global warming debate, today) tried very hard to find anything worth further study or putting more money into. They failed. And anyone who says that the scientists involved with Condon found good evidence and then just turned their backs on the most sensational science discovery of all time, uh, strain credulity.

But then I am well aware that credulity is quite elastic in some quarters .

Lance

Lance,

I often agree with you, but this is not one of those times. I do know something about the Condon Report, and it's nowhere near as simple as you make it out to be. The purpose of the Condon report was to kill Blue Book and provide a whitewash answer to the UFO enigma... and I say that as someone who is not a conspiracist. There is good information in the Condon materials, but it was ignored by Condon himself, much to the chagrin of a number of the people who worked on the project.

There is good evidence out there of something that remains unexplained (which does not necessarily mean it is paranormal in nature), and any one of a number of compelling cases that do interest scientists when they are made aware of them by people who are untainted by the circus that is ufology.

Paul

 

[Schuler]

I was listening to the episode on my way back from work, and I heard the most epiphanial, surprising an utterly SHOCKING Paracast moment EVER: so the scientist in the underground facility in Independence Day is DATA???

Man... it's true. All these years... I had no idea!

I'm shocked.

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Shocked, man.

 

[Paul Kimball]

But science has long moved past the ideas we talk about here: aliens in spaceships or multi dimensional beings, time travelers, etc.

These things only live on because they work as popular mythology and have captured the imagination of the folks who discuss, research and theorize on them.

This is simply not true. I offer the following only as examples:

The problem of the believers is they lack a proper sense of scepticism about what they think could be; the problem with the dis-believers is that they lack a proper sense of scepticism about what they think is. It's called hubris.

 

[Paul Kimball]

20 minutes or so of a lecture Jacobs gave to MUFON - LA last year.

Also:

 

[dyingsun]

20 minutes or so of a lecture Jacobs gave to MUFON - LA last year.

Also:

Im actually quite shocked that Jacobs is such an old man.

 

[Tom From Hong Kong]

Getting back to the topic of alien abductions, one factor which may hamper our efforts to uncover the truth is the lack of resources. Having met two people in my life who claim to be abductees, I suspect there may be considerable third party corroborating evidence which currently remains uncovered and undocumented (both of these individuals had family and friends who claim to have seen and experienced strange occurrences). I suspect Messrs. Hopkins and Jacobs have not thoroughly examined and catalogued this evidence which, if properly verified, would support statements uncovered via hypnosis.

Also, I personally would like to find out more about the researchers' efforts to videotape an abduction -- was it a half hearted effort, or were there efforts thwarted by the alleged abductee or otherwise?

 

[dyingsun]

Getting back to the topic of alien abductions, one factor which may hamper our efforts to uncover the truth is the lack of resources. Having met two people in my life who claim to be abductees, I suspect there may be considerable third party corroborating evidence which currently remains uncovered and undocumented (both of these individuals had family and friends who claim to have seen and experienced strange occurrences). I suspect Messrs. Hopkins and Jacobs have not thoroughly examined and catalogued this evidence which, if properly verified, would support statements uncovered via hypnosis.

Also, I personally would like to find out more about the researchers' efforts to videotape an abduction -- was it a half hearted effort, or were there efforts thwarted by the alleged abductee or otherwise?

I am still of the opinion that 95% , if not more, of alleged abduction experiences are related to a mild or a full blown case of Schizophrenia, the problem of tangible proof remains.

 

[CapnG]

I certainly didn't mean that scientists don't talk about time travel or multiple dimensions or life somewhere in the universe. Just that they have nothing to do with UFO's

That's a definitive statement about an an unknown. It's illogical.

 

[Gareth]

He seemed interested enough on numerous occasions. Even talked about it a few times on the show, expressing his frustration at his inability to find it (through friends in Caracas).

Lance it seems to me that you've noticed that the door is ajar just a little here in this thread. An element of the UFO thing is being trampled upon, and while you can see that door is open just a little you want to try and capitalise and see if you can wedge your foot in there.


The possible validity of the UFO phenomenon != rely on the validity of the abduction thing. You cant use one as a tool to bury the other, as much as Im sure you want to.

 

[Gareth]

Just out of curiosity were you a regular listener?

A couple things... David mentioned on more than one occasion that he had had a friend attempt to track down the paper for that date but hadnt been able to find it by going through microfiche(sp?) at the paper. Its not just a matter of having someone send it to him (based on what David said on the show).

And David never mentioned that the object was photographed. Just that that there was a front page article describing the event having been witnessed by many people. IF there was a photo I'd be willing to bet David would spend serious bucks trying to track it down.

If anyone remembers things differently than that, please let me know. I'm sure Gene could confirm (or amend) what I have said.

 

[Gareth]

Hi Lance. Your questions are somewhat hypothetical.

If he found a photo of the object he saw do I think it would end up looking nothing like what he described? To be honest I would be surprised if this turned out to be the case, based on the fact that his brother saw it too, and also that David seems to remember it fairly clearly. But anything is possible I guess.

If you were right then all it would do is make me re-evaluate my opinions of Davids various reported experiences. As far as an adjustment of my overall view I really dont think it would have much impact. A pattern one data point does not make.

 

[Paul Kimball]

Hey guys, let's stay on track. I'll open another thread to discuss the Condon report, and someone can open a thread to discuss David's alleged experience (and on this I agree with your thoughts Lance), and let's keep this one focused as much as possible on the April 4th show.

Thanks,
Paul

 

[Tom From Hong Kong]

I am still of the opinion that 95% , if not more, of alleged abduction experiences are related to a mild or a full blown case of Schizophrenia, the problem of tangible proof remains.

This is a plausible alternative explanation. If the legitimate abduction researchers were properly resourced, they may be able to collect corroborating third party evidence which would dismiss this explanation in some/many instances. Again, I have met two self-proclaimed abductees, each with well balanced family members who also recounted strange incidents surrounding the abductee. Neither fit the profile of the town drunk or of the disturbed lunatic.

A DVR and a couple infra-red cameras cost a few thousand dollars, an amount which I suspect Messrs. Hopkins and Jacobs can afford (as well as some of their abductee patients). Frankly, one of the first things I would do is to use the equipment to monitor abductees who claim frequent contact at night. I have heard Dr. Jacobs state that he has tried this, but in general terms without much detail (there is more detail in his books, but this doesn't help the podcast listener). Both Hopkins and Jacobs could advance their case tremendously by offering firsthand examples of where this has been tried and failed.

 

[Paul Kimball]

I think the issue of video recording (and, I might add, audio recording) is the nail in the coffin. When we were filming Ghost Cases, we picked up a DVR camera system for a couple of grand, which isn't all that much when you consider the alleged importance of the abduction phenomenon, and we set it up everytime we visited a supposedly haunted location. The same thing could (and should) be done for people who claim repeated abduction experiences - and then we would see what happens.

But so far we've seen nothing. That's pretty damning, in my books.

It's ridiculous - ghost hunters everywhere regularly use video and audio equipment - indeed, it's a must-have. UFO abduction researchers? They rely on hypnosis.

In the episode above, when the door opens, the camera was there filming. People can argue over what happened, but at least they don't have to take my word for it... or hypnotize me.

When ghost hunters are more technologically adept and methodologically sound than you are, it's time to step aside.

http://www.dvr.com/home.php

 

[Jumpy]

To claim that everything should be "regulated" is of course very American and no doubt laudible. No-one will argue too strongly against this in principle but in practice you can't regulate everything anyone ever does in a free society, and shouldn't.

With you on this one.