Are there "spies" among us?

[Pegusta]

This is sort of inspired by ufologys interesting and thought provoking thread on the possibility of real life aliens walking among us. It had me thinking whether or not there are actually people affiliated with the government/military/intelligence agencies keeping tabs on the ufological community in some shape or form. In essence does anyone in an official capacity besides us give a frakk about UFOs, to the point that they even monitor online communities such as this one?

I mean it has been pretty much established beyond reasonable doubt that some representatives from different intelligence agencies and different branches of the armed forces (of several countries) at some point dabbled in the studies of UFOs. The motivations for this are debatable. From concerns over the implications of the phenomenon in different areas: military, religion, society, national/international security, etc., to pure curiosity or a mix of them all.

The motivations aside:

Do you think that there are individuals in an offical albeit covert capacatiy monitoring this community and similar forums pertaining to the UFO-phenomenon?

And

If yes; what would their motivations for doing so be?

Or

If no, why not?

My guess would be: No, probably not. Because doing so would in my opinion be both a waste of resources and manpower. I really don’t think we are that important in the big scheme of things (at least I’m not). I get the sense that the ufological community might overplay its importance in a way.

Then again, I am not excluding the possibility that there is a covert interest in the phenomenon at this time, certainly not. However, I think that if ufologists are being monitored it may have less to do with the phenomenon, but more with the possible value of controlling information within the general structure of ufology.

I have come to believe that the government (for lack of a better term) does not know that much more than we do, but nevertheless may still be interested in controlling the playing field as a type of resource to use in the future, if need should arise. Intelligence agencies may also be playing games to test different intelligence/information gathering or intelligence/information containment techniques. But that in my opinion would be the likely extent of the interest.

I am not putting up a poll at this time, because of the actuality of ufologys interesting one. But feel free to chime in with your thoughts on this if you have any.


Naturally I encourage any shadowy government lurkers to come forward if they want to

 

[boomerang]

There seems a history of individuals affiliated with government intelligence becoming involved with ufo investigative groups. Roscoe Hillenkoetter was appointed by Harry Truman as first director of the CIA. From Wikipedia:

"The National Investigations Committee On Aerial Phenomena was formed in 1956, with the organization's corporate charter being approved October 24.[6] Hillenkoetter was on NICAP's board of governors from about 1957 until 1962.[7] Donald E. Keyhoe, NICAP director and Hillenkoetter's Naval Academy classmate, wrote that Hillenkoetter wanted public disclosure of UFO evidence.[8] Perhaps Hillenkoetter's best-known statement on the subject was in 1960 in a letter to Congress, as reported in The New York Times: "Behind the scenes, high-ranking Air Force officers are soberly concerned about UFOs. But through official secrecy and ridicule, many citizens are led to believe the unknown flying objects are nonsense."[9]

 

[Randall]

Interesting idea for a thread ... is it a secret ploy to divert our attention away from the idea that aliens may be among us? But seriously, I think it's reasonable to propose that the UFO community is monitored to some extent by the powers that be, particularly groups that are of charitable status, for the purpose of taxation. As for agency infiltration into specific groups e.g. MUFON for the purpose of influencing policy at the board level; that's hard to say for sure. After all, if it was covert and we knew, it wouldn't really be covert would it? But if we consider the MJ-12 document fiasco, the Bennewitz affair, and the demise of NICAP, it's hard not to infer some connections. So it could be happening. That's why the group I'm with ( USI ) eliminated that security hole to begin with by operating as an informal network. There's no board to infiltrate or dissolve from within.

There's probably also some casual monitoring from a distance as opposed to having agents inside. For example the UFO community reports UFO sightings and the military tracks and intercept UFOs, so correlating sighting reports with tracking data can be expected. Also it wouldn't surprise me if they keep an eye on UFO report frequency when secret launches, missions or tests are made to see if they get reported as UFOs. They've done it in the past so why would they quit now? Then there are the agency retirees like Corso, Alexander and Pope who seem to come out of the woodwork and write UFO books that have some rather questionable content ( or lack thereof ). Pope's been quietly recommending behind the scenes that UFO interest groups distance themselves from UFOs.

Also, the media, including UFO forums are probably also monitored under an ELINT program. I wouldn't be surprised to find that the data is then used to influence public opinion, limit access, and intercept private communications. All this sounds like it adds up to a lot of interest. But in the grand scheme of things it's really low level involvement. UFO interest groups themselves don't represent any real threat to national security provided that they don't get their hands on any secret and sensitive UFO related material. They know that UFO interest groups are constantly after that material the same way rival intelligence organizations are, so keeping an eye on us the same way is to be expected. It's even possible some rival agents could make use of UFO interest groups. So basically, nothing is too paranoid to rule out as a possibility.

The important thing for those of us who are interested in determining the truth regarding alien visitation, is to stick to that agenda and keep it out in the open. That's why USI has a free website and I post everything I'm involved with online there or in the forums. I'd sooner be seen as a non-adversary to the powers that be than as a dissenter. It's all a really complex issue and the easiest way to handle it is just to keep it clean and not give them any reason to think you or your group might pose some threat to their operations that could spill over from UFOs into something else. In that spirit, I wish that they'd work with us in a more open and official capacity. My door is always open if they should want to do that. But then again I suppose that even if my door wasn't open they'd know how to get in anyway .

BTW: When I first started USI, I was contacted by an unknown group who offered to share insider information provided that I shut down my website. I challenged them to prove who they were first, but they refused. Naturally so did I. Shortly thereafter domain name predators managed to steal my domain name by redirecting my mail and not long after that my computer HDD with our member database crashed, and not long after that I had a rather odd visit by some MIBs claiming to be Jehovah's Witnesses ... all sheer coincidence? Probably, but I still find myself shaking my head with a rather cynical smile. Even these days it's not unusual for the phone to act weird when I'm on a call about UFOs, and last year I had a black helicopter hovering near the house. They still seem to shadow me more often than one would expect, but maybe that's just coincidence to. Just like the stuff that gets moved around from time to time inside my house without any apparent explanation. How many coincidences does it take? Still, I refuse to get all paranoid about it. That's just pointless.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

I thought there wasn't even any debate on this. I have zero doubt there are agents of agencies actively and passively keeping an eye on the UFO community and that they have been doing so at least since the Robertson panel was convened.
There are a number of sound reasons why they would do so, whatever 'we' might think of it. It's easy to believe that people into UFOs can be paranoid and think any old click on the phone line might be a tap, just the other week, Robert Hastings said outright he believes his phone has been tapped for a long time.

Having actually worked in GCHQ, the UK NSA equivalent, I can assure people that there really needs to be quite compelling reasons for anyone to have an active phone intercept on their line and the reason is simple: manpower.

Although systems may be recording and logging virtually all, if not all, phone calls, texts and emails etc, this is a very different thing than someone actually sitting listening to all your phone activity etc. It takes a lot of time and really unless you are suspected of terrorist-related activities, serious crime or espionage, there just isn't anywhere near enough people with clearances employed to waste time listening to us chatting to eachother. Agencies involved in national security have more than enough to deal with trying to prevent day to day threats from real bad people without bothering with who is saying what about the latest sighting etc.

I have been at the exact sharp end of decisions as to which South American ship to listen to in an effort to stop large-scale cocaine smuggling and there are nowhere near enough staff to do even that to anything like the amount that would be ideal. The idea that there are spare trained staff to spy on say, this forum is actually ludicrous, unless there was already good intelligence that it was being used covertly for some nefarious purpose.

In this case, big brother is far too busy watching elsewhere.

 

[pixelsmith]

My guess would be: No, probably not. Because doing so would in my opinion be both a waste of resources and manpower.

That is what our government does best... why not do it here as well.

 

[Randall]

I thought there wasn't even any debate on this. I have zero doubt there are agents of agencies actively and passively keeping an eye on the UFO community and that they have been doing so at least since the Robertson panel was convened ...

I agree with you Goggs that the vast majority of monitoring is done in what you call a passive mode. Something gets said or written that matches some keyword on some filter someplace and some recorder automatically clicks in to take a sound byte or snapshot of the page or the email or whatever. Most of it probably never even gets reviewed. But at the same time the manpower for the North American security agencies numbers in the tens of thousands and we don't really know what they all do. It wouldn't surprise me to find that the UFO community falls under the responsibility of some obscure underfunded section someplace along with a bunch of other low level stuff. Certainly guys like me can't be all that important to them. It just doesn't make sense. But then again I'm not making up any of that stuff above either, and really, nothing would surprise me anymore. That's why I just tend to shrug it off ( whatever it is ) as part of the gig. I don't really think about it much unless this type of discussion comes up, in which case I share my observations.

On the phone thing, I don't think it's a case of my specific phone being monitored any more than anyone else's. I've just noticed that I have odd phone behavior on calls specifically concerning USI business than on other types of calls. So maybe the signal is bounced of some satellite with a filter that picks up on the word "UFO" and automatically kicks in some kind of monitoring relay. No real extra manpower needed there. The data is then probably collated along with all the other mentions of the word UFO from ELINT sources and filed in a database that could give analysts ( if needed ) some idea of the frequency of the use of these key words over certain geographical areas. No extra manpower needed for that either. From there it probably just stays filed in the memory banks unless something throws up a red flag to indicate some sort of security breach.

 

[boomerang]

BTW: When I first started USI, I was contacted by an unknown group who offered to share insider information provided that I shut down my website. I challenged them to prove who they were first, but they refused. Naturally so did I. Shortly thereafter domain name predators managed to steal my domain name by redirecting my mail and not long after that my computer HDD with our member database crashed, and not long after that I had a rather odd visit by some MIBs claiming to be Jehovah's Witnesses ... all sheer coincidence? Probably, but I still find myself shaking my head with a rather cynical smile. Even these days it's not unusual for the phone to act weird when I'm on a call about UFOs, and last year I had a black helicopter hovering near the house. They still seem to shadow me more often than one would expect, but maybe that's just coincidence to. Just like the stuff that gets moved around from time to time inside my house without any apparent explanation. How many coincidences does it take? Still, I refuse to get all paranoid about it. That's just pointless.

Yer creeping me out, man.

 

[Trajanus]

I agree with you Goggs that the vast majority of monitoring is done in what you call a passive mode. Something gets said or written that matches some keyword on some filter someplace and some recorder automatically clicks in to take a sound byte or snapshot of the page or the email or whatever. Most of it probably never even gets reviewed. But at the same time the manpower for the North American security agencies numbers in the tens of thousands and we don't really know what they all do. It wouldn't surprise me to find that the UFO community falls under the responsibility of some obscure underfunded section someplace along with a bunch of other low level stuff.

I think they do more than monitor. They may have people in some of the more active or bigger online forums, who promote what the government wants us to believe: either argue directly that UFOs are nonsense or accomplish the same thing by supporting nutty stories.

 

[Pegusta]

Interesting idea for a thread ... is it a secret ploy to divert our attention away from the idea that aliens may be among us? But seriously, I think it's reasonable to propose that the UFO community is monitored to some extent by the powers that be, particularly groups that are of charitable status, for the purpose of taxation. As for agency infiltration into specific groups e.g. MUFON for the purpose of influencing policy at the board level; that's hard to say for sure. After all, if it was covert and we knew, it wouldn't really be covert would it? But if we consider the MJ-12 document fiasco, the Bennewitz affair, and the demise of NICAP, it's hard not to infer some connections. So it could be happening. That's why the group I'm with ( USI ) eliminated that security hole to begin with by operating as an informal network. There's no board to infiltrate or dissolve from within.

There's probably also some casual monitoring from a distance as opposed to having agents inside. For example the UFO community reports UFO sightings and the military tracks and intercept UFOs, so correlating sighting reports with tracking data can be expected. Also it wouldn't surprise me if they keep an eye on UFO report frequency when secret launches, missions or tests are made to see if they get reported as UFOs. They've done it in the past so why would they quit now? Then there are the agency retirees like Corso, Alexander and Pope who seem to come out of the woodwork and write UFO books that have some rather questionable content ( or lack thereof ). Pope's been quietly recommending behind the scenes that UFO interest groups distance themselves from UFOs.

Also, the media, including UFO forums are probably also monitored under an ELINT program. I wouldn't be surprised to find that the data is then used to influence public opinion, limit access, and intercept private communications. All this sounds like it adds up to a lot of interest. But in the grand scheme of things it's really low level involvement. UFO interest groups themselves don't represent any real threat to national security provided that they don't get their hands on any secret and sensitive UFO related material. They know that UFO interest groups are constantly after that material the same way rival intelligence organizations are, so keeping an eye on us the same way is to be expected. It's even possible some rival agents could make use of UFO interest groups. So basically, nothing is too paranoid to rule out as a possibility.

The important thing for those of us who are interested in determining the truth regarding alien visitation, is to stick to that agenda and keep it out in the open. That's why USI has a free website and I post everything I'm involved with online there or in the forums. I'd sooner be seen as a non-adversary to the powers that be than as a dissenter. It's all a really complex issue and the easiest way to handle it is just to keep it clean and not give them any reason to think you or your group might pose some threat to their operations that could spill over from UFOs into something else. In that spirit, I wish that they'd work with us in a more open and official capacity. My door is always open if they should want to do that. But then again I suppose that even if my door wasn't open they'd know how to get in anyway .

BTW: When I first started USI, I was contacted by an unknown group who offered to share insider information provided that I shut down my website. I challenged them to prove who they were first, but they refused. Naturally so did I. Shortly thereafter domain name predators managed to steal my domain name by redirecting my mail and not long after that my computer HDD with our member database crashed, and not long after that I had a rather odd visit by some MIBs claiming to be Jehovah's Witnesses ... all sheer coincidence? Probably, but I still find myself shaking my head with a rather cynical smile. Even these days it's not unusual for the phone to act weird when I'm on a call about UFOs, and last year I had a black helicopter hovering near the house. They still seem to shadow me more often than one would expect, but maybe that's just coincidence to. Just like the stuff that gets moved around from time to time inside my house without any apparent explanation. How many coincidences does it take? Still, I refuse to get all paranoid about it. That's just pointless.

Oh crap, ufology, you’ve exposed my elegant but oh so sinister agenda. And I didn’t even get the chance to put my fedora hat and sunglasses on.

I definitely agree with you when it comes to the big UFO groups, and the likelihood of them having been infiltrated at some point. And MUFON is pretty much dead today as well. It seems to be the same type of thing happening in groups like it, with internal struggles for power and prestige between different factions. Ultimately it leads to the group imploding in itself. Same old same old. Definitely a pattern to be seen there. I think the model you have implemented may be the only sensible thing to do under current circumstances. I wish you good luck with it.

I bet there are quite a few Doty-type characters running round being up to now good spreading all sorts of misleading information, causing confusion within the community and at the same time fueling the infighting. The Bennewits affair strikes me as being a very tragic consequence of this game they play. It makes me both sad and angry to think about it. The question though, are guys like him acting on their own accord, or are they being directed by their respective agencies or informal groups within them?
To me Corsos book read like utter BS. Alexander comes across as being a no-nonsense guy, and I appreciate his views to a certain extent. However, reading his book you get the feeling he “forgets” to mention aspects of the enigma that doesn’t fit into his point of view. Pope is one of the characters of ufology I am really dubious about. You know the whole real life X-files shtick that’s being pushed like a sales speech. I’m very cautious when it comes to people that seem to be more into selling different things more than researching the phenomenon. If you don’t mind, please do tell more of the business of his involvement with dissuading (possibly to strong a word) UFO groups.

That story with the shady individuals putting forth an offer of information is fascinating. Have you seen them since? Were they Americans or Canadians? That is really the million dollar question whether one would accept that sort of deal. Who’s to say that the information one receives is legitimate, or not some bunk. It’s sort of the Bill Moore situation all over again. I think one objective is to sow seeds of paranoia and uncertainty. But why would they be so afraid of people looking into the UFO mystery? Another million dollar question I guess. I would venture to postulate that they play games to cover their lack of knowing. They really don’t know jack, and have no way of controlling the phenomenon. Pure speculation I guess, but nonetheless my five cents.

And what’s up with the black helicopters? It’s sort of evolved into an archetypal representation of fear and paranoia induction. As you say, the thing is not to let the mind games get to you, simply just notice them and laugh at it. The MIB phenomenon is absolutely fascinating. It’s like a charade type of thing going on, with guys dressing up and having rehearsed a script and everything. Thanks for sharing your interesting experiences.

 

[Pegusta]

That is what our government does best... why not do it here as well.

Hehe, that makes sense in a sad kind of a way.

 

[Pegusta]

Agreed. I don’t dispute the premise that somewhere some guys affiliated with a government organization are interested in the “goings on” in the ufological community. I guess it all boils down to resources and the possible pros and cons of implementing them, for whatever reason.


And on a side note, sorry for spamming the thread with posts. I am quite frankly s*it at computers, but I will try to learn how to answer - in quotes- more than one post at a time. Time will tell if I manage it

 

[kellyiom]

In light of the prism revelations monitoring might be a lot more widespread although I totally agree with Goggs, unless you're involved in something illegal and serious , there's not going to be much interest . I think some of the data is interpreted by heavy duty databases so we all have a kind of information footprint that helps build a profile so some monitoring happens from an inference or a false positive . I think a similar thing happens with groups interested in alternative energy or environmental issues.

That said, there could be small units which don't conform to the overall strategic intelligence policy, treating the subject as a psyops opportunity . I was quite surprised at a case in the UK where a police unit was tasked with infiltrating environmental activist groups and this went on for years, under deep cover, so this type of thing does happen .

 

[Randall]

There are spies everywhere ...

 

[DaveM]

No doubt there are people monitoring websites. Not just paranormal/ufo topics, but everything under the sun. Go look at any political website. There are plenty of trolls to be found. These people are name-callers and add nothing to any discussion. I am sure that many of them are paid by who-knows-who to muddy the water. What can be done about it? Very little I imagine.

 

[Stagger Lee]

I've noticed a recent spike in registration to this forum- maybe dozens in the last week or so. Got to be at least one or two shills planted here.

 

[Randall]

I've noticed a recent spike in registration to this forum- maybe dozens in the last week or so. Got to be at least one or two shills planted here.

I suspect a lot are bot registrants. Just count the characters in the names, too many exact 9 character names to be mere coincidence.

 

[Stagger Lee]

Good call. I had not noticed that. I was curious why we haven't seen many first posts from recent registers.

 

[dyingsun]

Dude, some of us know it was you.

 

[Tyger]

Naturally I encourage any shadowy government lurkers to come forward if they want to.

Except for the 19th Century Literature chat site I frequent, I don't think there is a chat site I have posted on that doesn't believe they are being monitored.

For example, I am on a couple of royalty chat sites and some of the more vicious sites absolutely think they are being 'watched' by the PR 'machine' of the various royal houses. Has to be guilt causing that paranoia because some of what is said is pretty incendiary. (I keep to the 'nice' chat sites). Amazing the amount of venom that can be stirred in people's souls regarding people they do not know!

UFOlogy seems to lend itself to that kind of thinking - has it embedded in it's mythos, in fact. I've returned from a too-brief 'long' weekend vacation and was around people totally oblivious of royalty and ufo's who are more into NPR concerts, the local Farmer's Market, Sunday garden tours and cop'n'cup chat gatherings in the neighborhood (beating back the tides of slumlords and prostitution-cum-drug-dealers).

Thinking this way automatically puts everyone in the suspect category - especially if they are a skeptic or lean towards a more questioning stance. It becomes a no-win for everybody. (Is my arguing against paranoia also make me suspect? It's a hard place to live one's life imo.)

Personally I agree that if there is 'monitoring' going on it's purely automatic scans by bots for key phrases, etc. There is not enough manpower in the world (me thinks) to have real live people trawl through every post on every chat/blog site in internet land.

 

[Tyger]

No doubt there are people monitoring websites. Not just paranormal/ufo topics, but everything under the sun. Go look at any political website. There are plenty of trolls to be found. These people are name-callers and add nothing to any discussion. I am sure that many of them are paid by who-knows-who to muddy the water. What can be done about it? Very little I imagine.

I don't think trolls are paid. People forget that 13-year olds can be chatting on sites. Some of what I read has the literacy of a pubescent teen imo - when it really gets bad. Adults tend to take the chatter very seriously - the youngster is just having scads of 'fun' stirring the pot under the 'freedom' of anonymity. Just my opinion.

If there is actual money to be had posting on chat sites, I would like to know where I apply for that job. Though I would change my opinion with political websites - I think there the stakes are so high (power, wealth) that flunkies very likely are on those chat sites 'muddying the waters'. Yep.