Arnold Sighting - Mistaken Identification????

[manxman]

Maybe the spooks were spooked enough by Arnold's sighting to set him up with other weird 'stuff' to discredit his original sighting.

2 men died, they were'nt p1ssing about, tptb were threatened by Arnolds claim's, that's why people started dying.

 

[Burnt State]

After reading through the Martin Shough paper and listening to Arnold's radio interview in 1947 shortly after his sighting; I believe the story is genuine and his story stands the tests of time and speculation. I do not believe that this can be explained by a test flight of Horton's or anything else terrestrial.

Agreed. It's an interesting marker to help us evaluate cases that come after it as it seems that Arnold himself is that quality witness, with a lot of unique capacities and was able to test, evaluate and measure what he was seeing at the time of the sighting. You really can't say that about most folk who are too jaw-dropped to make sense of what's taking place. That's why, contrary to the skeptical debunker's thinking that pilots make bad witnesses, i feel the exact opposite is true. They are the classically "trained observer" and they have the skills to remain calm while up in the air and make some practical and pragmatic decisions.

Manx, I'm not sure that there's any intentionality regarding the deaths of those pilots - i think maybe it's more a case of grand coincidence. Would those lives be worth what was gained, if anything at all? I don't believe hardball is played that way, not randomly or with purposelessness. But i do agree that Arnold was manipulated, by Palmer for sure, and perhaps a third agent in the field. After all, the documents are all part of the vault and so tabs were being kept, and discrediting Arnold, or at the least, spinning him for some loops, might have been the best way to keep his boy scout's nose out of that flying saucer stuff. I haven't finished that document yet but i would like to get a better handle on all of the Maury Island players and their intentions.

 

[fastwalker]

That's why, contrary to the skeptical debunker's thinking that pilots make bad witnesses, I feel the exact opposite is true. They are the classically "trained observer" and they have the skills to remain calm while up in the air and make some practical and pragmatic decisions.

Listening to Arnold and reading the Shough paper I get the feeling that Arnold was a genuine Aviation enthusiast (plane nerd) and his observations were because he thought he was observing new jet aircraft and all of his actions during the sighting would be the type of thing an enthusiast would do. It is the classic 'you should have seen the one that got away' fishing story. I think he was initially confirming what he saw so he could tell his buds about the cool new jets he saw but when the observations did not add up, then it became what it is... I agree with your statement about pilots...

 

[boomerang]

Meant to ask you who you're reading concerning the breakaway civilization hypothesis. I think Richard Dolan, in whose recent books I first read about this hypothesis, could be correct in his reasoning based on the secrecy of black projects managed by the military-industrial complex, but he has looked at it from the perspective of the last several decades rather than taking it back to 1947. Ah, but I just realized that we first heard the term 'military-industrial complex' from Dwight Eisenhower when he was leaving office. How much more did he know, or more likely foresee, than he said? Still, I find it impossible to believe the current hypothesis expressed by several posters and Paracast guests here that the worldwide ufo phenomena of the last 65 years have been an illusion manifested by US security agencies and the US air force. So who should I read to take that hypothesis seriously?

I can't cite any particular author(s) who have been decisive in shaping my best guesstimate regarding the breakaway civilization hypothesis. One who strikes me as the most unique in approach to the question is the late Mac Tonnies and his musings about possible crypto-terrestrials. Perhaps Tonnies' views on this matter are to the breakaway hypothesis what Vallee is to that of ET. His speculations seemed based on a much larger view of the history of human civilization in light of the current presence on earth of those who may be our intellectual superiors. Joseph Farrell makes for an interesting read or interview. But at some point his reach exceeds his grasp. Consider his claims that the Nazis successfully developed fission weapons and even used them in Russia during WWII.

Actually and come to think of it--The one author who comes the closest to making the breakaway hypothesis seem almost plausible to me is Nick Cook in "The Hunt For Zero Point". He raises questions based on seemingly valid evidence that continue to engender a kind of contemplative dissonance. But he still falls short of a convincing argument.

Questions like ET vs breakaway civilization or vs 'whatever' are best informed by bringing as many different viewpoints and experiences under one's hat as possible. It is all indeed a kind of hall of mirrors so that what one sees depends mostly on where one happens to be standing at a particular moment.

 

[marduk]

I can't cite any particular author(s) who have been decisive in shaping my best guesstimate regarding the breakaway civilization hypothesis. One who strikes me as the most unique in approach to the question is the late Mac Tonnies and his musings about possible crypto-terrestrials. Perhaps Tonnies' views on this matter are to the breakaway hypothesis what Vallee is to that of ET. His speculations seemed based on a much larger view of the history of human civilization in light of the current presence on earth of those who may be our intellectual superiors. Joseph Farrell makes for an interesting read or interview. But at some point his reach exceeds his grasp. Consider his claims that the Nazis successfully developed fission weapons and even used them in Russia during WWII.

Actually and come to think of it--The one author who comes the closest to making the breakaway hypothesis seem almost plausible to me is Nick Cook in "The Hunt For Zero Point". He raises questions based on seemingly valid evidence that continue to engender a kind of contemplative dissonance. But he still falls short of a convincing argument.

Questions like ET vs breakaway civilization or vs 'whatever' are best informed by bringing as many different viewpoints and experiences under one's hat as possible. It is all indeed a kind of hall of mirrors so that what one sees depends mostly on where one happens to be standing at a particular moment.

Calling the breakaway civilization concept a stretch in my mind is like calling the Hulk kinda strong or Megan Fox kinda hot. It's a massive stretch to consider that a fragment of our civilization somehow exists in a different plane of existence and has kept that completely hidden from sight.

It's like supposing Bigfoot has stayed hidden because he has a cloaking device. Maybe a good fun thing to talk about, but pass the dutchie, wouldja?

And hasn't Farrell been proven a nutter left right and centre? The Nazis didn't think nukes were feasible, were way off base, and didn't have access to fissionable materials in sufficient quantities to do it anyway! There's a reason Canada was part of the Manhattan project -- we have a giant semi-radioactive chunk of land to mine.

 

[manxman]

There's a reason Canada was part of the Manhattan project -- we have a giant semi-radioactive chunk of land to mine.

Aye Japan has 2 chunks now aswell.

 

[marduk]

There's a reason Canada was part of the Manhattan project -- we have a giant semi-radioactive chunk of land to mine.

Aye Japan has 2 chunks now aswell.

My point is that Germany doesn't have it now, and didn't have access to it then, either.

Neither did it have access to minds with the underlying physics worked out to make it go, or the funding to do so, or even the electric power to enrich the uranium.

Just like with Japan - they have to import the stuff.

 

[manxman]

Yep and created its own toxic nightmare, Fukeshima, those jap's will glow in the dark in a few years time.

 

[boomerang]

Calling the breakaway civilization concept a stretch in my mind is like calling the Hulk kinda strong or Megan Fox kinda hot. It's a massive stretch to consider that a fragment of our civilization somehow exists in a different plane of existence and has kept that completely hidden from sight.

It's like supposing Bigfoot has stayed hidden because he has a cloaking device. Maybe a good fun thing to talk about, but pass the dutchie, wouldja?

And hasn't Farrell been proven a nutter left right and centre? The Nazis didn't think nukes were feasible, were way off base, and didn't have access to fissionable materials in sufficient quantities to do it anyway! There's a reason Canada was part of the Manhattan project -- we have a giant semi-radioactive chunk of land to mine.

Yep on most of that. I might diverge a bit on Germany's take on the possibility of nuclear fission. I think Werner Heisenberg regarded it as feasible, but lacked the resources and possibly the inclination to give the Nazis a nuke. At any rate, we remain thankful the allies developed it first while regretting it to be a possibility in nature at all.

 

[manxman]

''while regretting it to be a possibility in nature at all''

long-term best thing the human race ever discovered, the energy released splitting an atom, is going to take humans to every corner of this universe in time.

I dont pretend to know much about nuclear fission, or how many atoms there are in a grain of sand, but i will bet theres a few million.

i just checked



.........................

Sand is made up of Silica this has the formula SiO2
silicon weighs 28 atomic units
Oxygen weighs 16 atomic units
so each SiO2 weighs 60 atomic units

there are 6.023 x 1023 atomic units in a gram. that is 6 with 23 zeros after it.

so there would be 6.023 x 1023 / 60 = 1x 1022 SiO2s in a gram
so
3 x 1022 atoms in a gram

Say a grain of sand is 1mm across it has a volume of 0.001cm3
1cm3 of sand weighs about 2.6g

so a grain of sand will
weigh 0.0026g

so to find the number of atoms in a grain of sand we multiply the number of atoms per gram by the number of grams:

3 x 1022 x 0.0026g = 7.8 x 1019 atoms

or

78 000 000 000 000 000 000


..................................

So that's 78 000 000 000 000 000 000 big big bangs.

I havent a clue how they will do it, control the release of all that energy, but i envisage electrical highways, narrowish beams of energy expanding out into space, and ships riding them like electric trams, travelling near as close to the speed of the energy driving them.


Think small, think laser, then nano craft powered by the beam, travelling in the beam, now big it up, and point the beam anywhere in the universe you want to go.

 

[boomerang]

You may be right.

''while regretting it to be a possibility in nature at all''

long-term best thing the human race ever discovered, the energy released splitting an atom, is going to take humans to every corner of this universe in time.

You may just be right. Let's hope so !

 

[marduk]

Consider his claims that the Nazis successfully developed fission weapons and even used them in Russia during WWII.

Here's another example of what the state of the art of Nazi 'science' was:
The Nazis Believed In A Universe Full Of Ice Just To Spite Einstein

In the 1920s and 1930s artists and writers flocked to France and to Spain, but scientists went to Germany. Physics and mathematics flourished in universities around the nation. Then the trouble started. Universities were public institutions, and the state could control the faculty. The Nazis took over, imposed their ideology, and one of the most advanced scientific nations in the world destroyed itself.

The dismissal of Jews, anyone who objected to such dismissals, and any visitor whose country might soon be at war with Germany was only the first step. The Nazis soon took to banning the teaching of "Jewish science," by which they meant relativity. Unfortunately for them, not teaching something doesn't make it less true, it only allows a lot of false things to be taught. To fill the intellectual void, they decided to promote acceptable scientists, and one of these scientists was Hanns Hörbiger.

In Hörbiger's defense, he was dead well before his teachings were promoted by the Nazis. Born in 1860, he made his fortune working as an engineer, but he made his name by writing a 1913 book, co-authored by an amateur astronomer, in which he put forward the idea of Glacial Cosmogony. Hörbiger did not believe there was any star other than the sun. The lights that people saw in the sky, he explained in his book, were nothing more than distant glaciers reflecting the light from the sun. Hörbiger's idea, also called World Ice Theory, admits the existence of other planets, but insists that the Earth is the only planet not covered by ice.

 

[Jeremiah Dugger]

The timing of Arnold's sighting in relation to the Maury Island incident, plus Ray Palmers natural motivations as a publisher/promoter, plus the involvement of Fred Crisman (slippery snake) all make these two events ( Maury Island and Mt. Ranier) combine to really muddy the waters. Were it not for the deaths of the ARMY Intelligence Officers, I would be inclined to think it was all a prearranged media ploy between Palmer and Crisman. However, they were dispatched to investigate something and they did crash and die and the basic timeline of all this irrevocably enmeshes the two events. The only person I'm comfortable trusting in this scenario is Arnold himself.
As far as the leap to Hortons goes, no dice. Those boys were all about the body design and not so much with the jet engine design. Plus they disappeared after the war, probably into the USSR's version of Operation Paperclip.
Now a Junkers is worth considering. It's thought that one of the those did make it across the Atlantic in some post-war, ODESSA ratline and was simply dismantled upon arrival.
*What if the newly created CIA got ahold of one and tricked it out with some forerunner of the nuclear engines Stanton Friedman later worked on?
(Possible tongue-in-cheek conspiracy theory here)

 

[Burnt State]

Now a Junkers is worth considering. It's thought that one of the those did make it across the Atlantic in some post-war, ODESSA ratline and was simply dismantled upon arrival.

is that tongue in cheek? what Junkers are you referring to as I don't see the similarity.

 

[Jeremiah Dugger]

There were rumors of an 8 engined beast in the ODESSA lore. But no, (you are correct) there is absolutely no resemblance, which is what I thought made it tongue in cheek. I was simply kidding.

 

[Jeremiah Dugger]

Check out Jack Northrop's flying wing from 1947. Not kidding this time. You could be on to something, Burnt State.

 

[manxman]

You are an interesting new edition to the forum jeremiah, hang around if you have the time.

Be lucky.

 

[Burnt State]

Quetzalcoatlus Northropi

 

[Jeremiah Dugger]

Quetzalcoatlus Northropi

That's not quite what I meant. Try this: google " Jack Northrop 1947 Flying Wing" now click over to images and tell me how many are lined up on the runway? How many objects did Arnold see again?

 

[Burnt State]

Well that is a bird named after Jack Northrop, and at least this one has some of those scalloped edges he reported for the one odd shaped craft flying in the squadron.

Those Flying Wing's simply do not conform at all to Arnold's sighting in any way whatsoever - see above in the thread.