Astronaut says we're not alone

[Schuyler]

Mitchell experienced what's called an 'epiphany':

I know what a fucking epiphany is. Don't patronize people on this site.

I'd be very surprised if the other astronauts haven't sensed this also. Its just that Mitchell decided to take the experience a bit further (thus the flakyness rofl).

Where's the beef? You're assuming quite a lot without anything to back it up.

 

[Schuyler]

There's an important principle in science, parsimony--the simplest explanation is usually the best.

I don't think so. Generally, the phenomenon looks like flying craft, often with aliens, and any ETs capable of coming here are very far advanced, and probably can cause all kinds of strange apparitions and hallucinations.

'often with aliens': What aliens. How do you know?

'capable of coming here are very far advanced: 'Coming here'? You assuming they come from afar? How do you know?

'can cause apparitions and hallucinations': How do you know this?

It seems to me your explanation is full of assumptions for which you have no proof at all. It's a typical 1950's era nuts and bolts ETH right out of our cultural assumptions. A few hundred years ago you'd be claiming the parsiminous explanation was faeries just as blithely as you claim the ETH now. It might be best if you actually studied the issue before announcing sweeping conclusions.

 

[Ezechiel]

Where's the beef? You're assuming quite a lot without anything to back it up.

Edgar Mitchell

 

[Stillborn]

Really? Can you document that? Somehow I can't imagine Neil Armstrong or Alan Shepard 'getting religion.' James Irwin (Apollo 15) was a Christian before he went. Charles Duke (Apollo 16) became a Christian after his flight. I've read through short biographies of all 12 and can't find any other references to religion. Besides which, I wouldn't call Mitchell 'religious' within the standard definitions. His www.noetics.org is into some weird shit, but it isn't exactly religious.

Not sure where I learned it. Maybe from Ed's book The Way of the Explorer. I don't consider Ed religious either. If my memory is correct, he talks about many others who either went into space, or to the moon, turning to religion when they got back and how he did not. He started up the Noetic Science org. instead.

 

[Ezechiel]

Where's the beef? You're assuming quite a lot without anything to back it up.

Jim Irwin
http://www.thespace-station.com/books.html
Apollo 15 Astronaut Jim Irwin wrote this intensely
personal account of the epiphany he experienced
on his return from the Moon.

Story Musgrave
http://www.spacestory.com/newtexas.htm

 

[Ezechiel]

Where's the beef? You're assuming quite a lot without anything to back it up.

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/08/10/u...astronaut-founded-religious-organization.html

James B. Irwin, an astronaut who walked on the moon in 1971 and later founded an evangelical religious organization, died Thursday night at Valley View Hospital in Glenwood Springs, Colo. He was 61 years old and lived in Colorado Springs.
A spokeswoman for Mr. Irwin in Colorado Springs, Nancy Metz, said he had died of a heart attack.
Mr. Irwin said that his experience exploring the moon on the Apollo 15 mission in July 1971 moved him to devote the rest of his life to "spreading the good news of Jesus Christ." He resigned from the astronaut corps a year later and became the founding president of High Flight Foundation, an interdenominational evangelical organization based in Colorado Springs.

 

[Schuyler]

I specifically acknowledged Irwin by name in a post above, so mentioing him is a moot point. Mitchell is a given. The claim is that all the moon astronauts experienced this great awakening. I'm saying that, at least so far, there is no proof of that whatsoever. It's an assumption. There's still no beef there, guys.

 

[Stillborn]

I specifically acknowledged Irwin by name in a post above, so mentioing him is a moot point. Mitchell is a given. The claim is that all the moon astronauts experienced this great awakening. I'm saying that, at least so far, there is no proof of that whatsoever. It's an assumption. There's still no beef there, guys.

Just for clarity. I said *nearly* all turned heavily religious. If I come by a reference I'll send it to you. This is from memory and it could be distorted.

Exact quote: "Nearly all astronauts that went to the moon turned to religion heavily once they got back I've heard." Of course what I "heard" could be wrong. I didn't mean it as a statement of fact.

 

[Ezechiel]

Where's the beef? You're assuming quite a lot without anything to back it up.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...susan-watts-talked-to-the-author-1414094.html

Here's an example of adverse effect:
Charles Duke

Charles Duke, of Apollo 16, has become a born- again Christian. His religious experience, he says, is far more fulfilling than the time he spent as an astronaut.

 

[Ezechiel]

Where's the beef? You're assuming quite a lot without anything to back it up.

http://www.fingal-independent.ie/news/over-the-moon-after-meeting-1715037.html
Marcus Scott

He told the councillor that space travel was not a religious experience but ' a profoundly spiritual one'.

There's also a bunch of Russian astronauts that went on record.

 

[Ezechiel]

The claim is that all the moon astronauts experienced this great awakening. I'm saying that, at least so far, there is no proof of that whatsoever. It's an assumption. There's still no beef there, guys.

I'll put my money on profound spiritual experience. However, considering the number of tasks they have to accomplish in space, its possible they some of them never took time to reflect.... which would be a shame

 

[Gareth]

Anyone know of any anecdotal evidence to back up the Hoagland stuff? I.E. that all apollo astronauts were 32 or 33 degree masons?


That seems like something that would be able to be researched.

 

[Chuckleberryfinn]

We've heard lots of folks in the UFO subculture claim that high ranking members of the military and government establishment have leaked intel regarding flying saucer and ET reality. Until we know who these high ranking members are and how they know these facts, all such claims are completely worthless. One cannot do anything with Mitchell's claims that would bring us any closer to learning more about UFOs. Why? Because we have absolutely nothing to go on. We have no names, dates, no evidence, nada. We need facts, not information reported through intermediaries.

I wish that Ed Mitchell, along with others who have recieved this so-called special information from alleged members of the elite establishment, would just keep it all to themselves.

 

[Gareth]

Karyn Dolans latest episode of her podcast has Rich Dolan and Peter Robbins on it, and Rich talks a bit about talking to Mitchell at the X-Con about the famous Admiral Wilson(?) / Steven Greer / Dr Mitchell meeting where Greer told the Admiral that there is UFO SAP, the Admiral tried to get access to it, and was denied.

So if anyone is interested in that stuff the podcast is worth checking out. (he talks more about it than just what he has related in Paracast appearances)

Here 'tis:

http://media.podcastingmanager.com/64024-83474/Media/key042409.mp3

 

[Schuyler]

Anyone know of any anecdotal evidence to back up the Hoagland stuff? I.E. that all apollo astronauts were 32 or 33 degree masons?

Buzz Aldrin and John Glenn are Masons, but I'm going to make a circumstantial argument that the whole issue is unlikely. The reason is that all the astronauts except Shepard and Mitchell were in their thirties when they walked on the Moon. I don't know if this is an iron clad rule, but at least some lodges have a minimum age of 33 before you can receive that degree. I know that makes it technically possible, but moving through the degrees takes a substantial amount of time (and memorization) and most Masons who achieve that degree are much older. I do not believe Aldrin was a 32nd degree Mason when he walked on the Moon, but that he achieved that distinction later, and in part because he had been on the Moon.

Just as with the religious issue, if you're going to claim that all (or most all) are of such and such a persuasion, we need solid evidence, preferrably from the people themselves, rather than a third party making a claim for all of them in their absence.

FWIW, the Masons tend to brag on their famous members; it's not something most members keep a secret. However, they don't recruit--you have to ask for membership. And you must profess a belief in a 'supreme diety' to be a member, though they keep the definition very loose. There's also some controversy within the Masonic movement on the worth of any degrees beyond the third. Many members feel the 'advanced' and 'honorary' degrees are worthless badges that prove nothing and are quite vehement in denouncing them. (Maybe they're just jealous. I don't know.)

 

[AnnetteMarie]

That is interesting about the having to ask to join, as a friend of mine joined years back, and he said you cannot ask to join, you must be asked TO join. and it often goes from father to son/s, although being the son of someone in the Masons will not guarantee acceptance into the organization.

I could be wrong in my memory of this, but I remember thinking at the time I had that conversation with him, that that policy was rather snooty.

 

[Ezechiel]

Buzz Aldrin and John Glenn are Masons

Had the privilege of shaking John Glenn's hand during his visit at the CSA in 2000. An amazing guy !
http://www.spaceref.ca/news/viewpr.html?pid=1700

As I hurtled through space, one thought kept crossing my mind: Every part of this capsule was supplied by the lowest bidder

No room for an epiphany in those conditions , however all Canadian astronauts were transformed (at different levels) by the experience.

Listen to this CBC report (especially at 3:54)
http://archives.cbc.ca/science_technology/space/topics/369/

 

[Schuyler]

I still don't think we're there. The original statement was something to the effect that 'most all' astronauts that walked on the Moon 'turned to religion.' All the evidence I see is that one did and one was already religious to begin with. Citing those two or three astronauts does not prove the original claim. It's not even close. Then we're told well, they had 'profound experiences' including the Russians, who never went to the Moon. Well, I can see that. I imagine floating up there would be a profound experience, but that does not equate to 'turning to religion.'

If you've read and/or seen 'The Right Stuff' by Tom Wolfe you'll know the astronauts--all of them--were placed in a pretty nasty position with regards to PR and the program. There's a scene at the first press conference for the 7 original astronauts where they are asked if they attend church. Gordo lies his ass off and claims he attends church regularly. They all were more or less forced to express religious faith because that's what the public wanted to hear. Not that some of them weren't religious, but these guys were mostly engineering graduates in the military and worked as test pilots--not your average emotionally religious person. But as the New American Heroes they were expected to express the core values of Americana.

Now, when these guys got back to earth, what did the press say? "Was your experience profound?" Really, listen to them and you see that they are being fed the answers. Given that the taxpayers just spent several billlion dollars to get you to the Moon and back for the experience of a lifetime, how could you NOT say your experience was profound? NASA is listening to every word you say and you'd better get it right. If you said, 'Yeah, it was cool, but the toilets in space are the pits so I'm gald to be home' you would never fly again. When Buzz Aldrin got back to earth all he wanted was to dump the regulation military underwear (which is truly terrible. I've worn it.) and get a pair of briefs from his wife. When James Lovell returned to earth he had been heard to say 'God damn it!' when everything on Apollo 13 was going to hell in a handbasket, and some minister made a big issue of it and NASA forced Lovell to publicly apologize for using foul language and taking God's name in vain. The movie kind of hints at this when he says, 'Are we on Vox?' but it doesn't go into detail of what the issue was about. This is the kind of pressure astronauts are under to express themselves properly and to pretend to be good Christians.

Now, in my opinion Mitchell's 'epiphany' is kind of lame. He says he suddenly realized that he was made of star stuff. Indeed, the molecules that make up our bodies were 'manufactured' inside stars. But this has been well known for decades. Carl Sagan spewed this stuff in 'Cosmos' and was equally 'amazed.' I don't think it is particularly amazing myself. You can get the same feeling of 'oneness with the universe' by dropping acid. Don't worry; it wears off. Mitchell had to have known this before he went up. he didn't 'suddenly realize,' he just remembered.

You know what the first astronaut prayer was? "Dear Lord, please don't let me fuck up." -- Alan Shepard on board the capsule on the launch pad.

 

[Trajanus]

'often with aliens': What aliens. How do you know?
'capable of coming here are very far advanced: 'Coming here'? You assuming they come from afar? How do you know?

They certainly appear like intelligent beings, with advanced technology, yet obviously aren't from next door. Nor is there anything in the fossil record, to my knowledge, suggesting some intelligent species preceded us here.

'can cause apparitions and hallucinations': How do you know this?

Even we can project holograms. The Navy once considered a scheme to project an image of the so called virgin mary off Cuba to start a religious revival to underme the communist regime.

It seems to me your explanation is full of assumptions for which you have no proof at all. It's a typical 1950's era nuts and bolts ETH right out of our cultural assumptions.

Nuts and bolts is supported by plenty of physical traces and descriptions of various gear. The phenomenon obviously isn't merely psychological.

A few hundred years ago you'd be claiming the parsiminous explanation was faeries just as blithely as you claim the ETH now.

No, the idea of aliens wasn't inconceivable a century ago; at the time Lowell made a case for Martians based on the so called canals. The ETH would've been the most parsimonious explanation then as now. (Of course, for those unwilling to look at the evidence, the "most parsimonious" explanation is some psychological issue).

It might be best if you actually studied the issue before announcing sweeping conclusions.

Oh I've studied some...

 

[David Biedny]

Schuyler, my friend, sure you can see where this guy is coming from. He mentions the "fossil record" without realizing that the vast majority of species which have existed on this planet have left NO fossil record. He already has the answers, to engage such people in debate is like banging your head against a wall - it only feels OK when you stop.

dB