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Be Afraid

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You seem to be sorely uneducated, not only on the subject of evolution but also how science has arrived at the age of the earth and of the universe at large, calling it a "wild ass guess" is just plain ignorant and a misrepresentation of the facts. If you'd bothered to look you would know that we know the exact age of the universe to a factor of +/- 0.11 billion years, so not even close to a "wild ass guess" as you would lead people to believe. Here's how we arrive at that number:

The age of the universe is defined in physical cosmology as the time elapsed since the Big Bang. The best current estimate of the age of the universe is 13.75 ± 0.11 billion years[1][2] (4.339 ± 0.035 ×1017 seconds) within the Lambda-CDM concordance model.[1] The uncertainty of 0.11 billion years has been obtained by the agreement of a number of scientific research projects, such as microwave background radiation measurements by Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe and other probes. Measurements of the cosmic background radiation give the cooling time of the universe since the Big Bang,[3] and measurements of the expansion rate of the universe can be used to calculate its approximate age by extrapolating backwards in time.

You can read more here: Age of the universe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The only part that is in dispute among scientists is the +/- figure of 0.11 billion years, so not even 1 billion years. A "wild ass guess" this is not.

To be fair, I've lived long enough ( 54 years ) to watch the scientifically estimated age of the Earth and the Universe change significantly. At one point the age of the universe was actually estimated to be not much more than we now estimate the age of the Earth to be. Science can be and has been wrong. Science can be and has been prone to fraudulent claims. Science can be prone to political manipulation and exploitation. Just look at the whole global warming debacle, the industrial war machine, automotive recalls, class action lawsuits against bad pharma ( not to mention 4 out of 5 doctors once recommended Camels ). Ideally science is an excellent tool for helping us to arrive at the most reasonable explanation for things, but the reality is that it's not perfect. However, at the same time, none of these shortcomings adds any credence to Biblical creationism. It's a faulty argument to claim that a problem with one idea justifies a belief in another. Lastly, even with the problems science has had, it has still provided sufficient evidence to refute select Biblical claims, other myths and superstitions. When used as it should, it is unquestionably one of the best tools we have for discerning the truth ( if that is what really matters to you personally ).
 
To be fair, I've lived long enough ( 54 years ) to watch the scientifically estimated age of the Earth and the Universe change significantly. At one point the age of the universe was actually estimated to be not much more than we now estimate the age of the Earth to be. Science can be and has been wrong. Science can be and has been prone to fraudulent claims. Science can be prone to political manipulation and exploitation. Just look at the whole global warming debacle, the industrial war machine, automotive recalls, class action lawsuits against bad pharma ( not to mention 4 out of 5 doctors once recommended Camels ). Ideally science is an excellent tool for helping us to arrive at the most reasonable explanation for things, but the reality is that it's not perfect. However, at the same time, none of these shortcomings adds any credence to Biblical creationism. It's a faulty argument to claim that a problem with one idea justifies a belief in another. Lastly, even with the problems science has had, it has still provided sufficient evidence to refute select Biblical claims, other myths and superstitions. When used as it should, it is unquestionably one of the best tools we have for discerning the truth ( if that is what really matters to you personally ).

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you but I don't get your point here, one of the strongest parts of science is its ability to incorporate new information and evidence into its theories and understanding of the universe at large. It's not that science was wrong about the age of the earth and the universe so much as it didn't have all the available information. The discovery of the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation in the late 60's, early 70's (I believe) was a major change in the information we had available, it was incorporated and now we have a much better picture of how old the universe actually is. Of course it's not perfect, nothing is perfect. I'm curious what you mean about the global warming debacle, I think you're confusing pseudoscience and conspiracy theory with actual science, whose position remains unchanged that climate change is happening and humans are the major contributing factor last time I checked...
 
Before you tell us how uneducated and idiotic these people are you should look into it.

The Scientific Case Against Evolution

I know you know these peoople and don't believe a thing they have to say. If you did you would have to completely ditch you thinking.

All I had to do was open it to see that it's garbage, the first headline is "Evolution is not happening now" and their reasoning is that nobody has seen it happen. This is crap.

This claim is built upon a fundamental misunderstanding of evolutionary theory that evolution is simply lifeforms changing to other predefined lifeforms, such as dogs evolving into cats and visa versa. Any knowledge about the mechanisms of evolutionary change are enough to dispell this fallacy. Let’s see how wrong this is by brushing up on our most basic of evolutionary changes: speciation.
Speciation is the process in which new species of organisms arise. There are four main ways for speciation to come about, but to be simple I’ll use the most well-known (and easy to comprehend) method: allopatric speciation, otherwise known as geographical separation. If a population is separated in two, and gene flow is blocked (meaning only organisms on the same side of the divide can mate), then new alleles that come about through mutation only spread through the part of the population that they occur in. Because mutations are random events, and that the conditions on either side of the divide may be different, exerting different selection pressures on alleles, over time the allele frequencies in each new population will diverge away from each other. If enough time passes, members from one population will not be able to breed with members of the other population. It is at this time when the two populations can be considered two different species.
So, natural processes can genetically diverge a population, but can they reform two separate species into one after they have separated, like the “dats and cogs” exmaple that Henry Morris demands? No, and it’s not hard to see why. Once two populations have become separate species, they can no longer interbreed by definition, so gene flow between them is completely blocked. So, the only way for the genetic changes between them to subside is for mutation and natural selection to undo every single change that occurred. But how would this be done? Such an event would require very specific selection pressures that select against every change that occurred, and even given that the random nature of mutation would interfere and destroy all hope of recombination. But that’s for two recently separated species. What about a regress from cats and dogs? This is even more unlikely, since cats and dogs have many, many more genetic differences than recently diverged species would.
Taking a step back from speciation events and looking at the phylogenetic tree posited by evolutionary theory, it is clear to all without Bible-based bias that the any changes other than “variation within kinds” would falsify evolutionary theory, since no known evolutionary mechanism exists for the genetic leap required to go from one currently existing variety of lifeform to another, such as the fabled leap from dog to cat.
Tied in with this CCC is another claim about “transitional forms”, and how we should be swimming in them. This is also based upon a misunderstanding of evolutionary theory. According to evolutionary theory, every lifeform that currently exists is a “transitional form” between its genetic ancestors and its genetic descendants. Linking back to the previous claim that we don’t see change between predefined lifeforms, such “transitional forms” between cats and dogs did exist in the past, when the direct ancestors of both organisms separated by some form of speciation. These forms which creationists claim need to exist now exist in the fossil record, which is precisely where evolutionary theory predicts they will be found.
So, to conclude, the claim that “Evolution is not happening now” is absurd, since speciation events that we can easily observe in the wild are happening, and they occur at the rate of genetic change that we would expect for a process driven by such mechanisms as random mutation and natural selection.

That's just their very first point utterly destroyed and proven to be a lack of understanding of how evolution actually works, it's not that I don't believe what they have to say it's that they're wrong.
 
Before you tell us how uneducated and idiotic these people are you should look into it.

The Scientific Case Against Evolution

I know you know these peoople and don't believe a thing they have to say. If you did you would have to completely ditch you thinking.

starise I think these people may be on to something. I have been watching my cat VERY close all day and she has not evolved in any way, shape or form. I will continue to observe thru the night and will report back asap if I see any evolving going on.
 
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you but I don't get your point here, one of the strongest parts of science is its ability to incorporate new information and evidence into its theories and understanding of the universe at large. It's not that science was wrong about the age of the earth and the universe so much as it didn't have all the available information. The discovery of the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation in the late 60's, early 70's (I believe) was a major change in the information we had available, it was incorporated and now we have a much better picture of how old the universe actually is. Of course it's not perfect, nothing is perfect. I'm curious what you mean about the global warming debacle, I think you're confusing pseudoscience and conspiracy theory with actual science, whose position remains unchanged that climate change is happening and humans are the major contributing factor last time I checked...

The "not enough available information" is the standard defense, but that doesn't make the initial scientific estimates correct. The scientists were wrong, period. Where you are correct is that ideally the scientific method is supposed to be open to recalibration upon receipt of new data. However that doesn't always happen like it should because of scientific politics. Regarding the Global Warming debacle, the pro GW propaganda is that scientists are unanimous on the causes of global warming. However the skeptics claim that there is no "unanimous" scientific consensus. The scientific politics focuses on CO2 because it can be linked to carbon credits and world economics. Meanwhile water vapor from jets ( a scientifically far more efficient greenhouse gas ) is seldom mentioned as contributory. Then there are the Earth scientists who chime in with scientific facts and figures involving CO2 from natural sources that make human contributions seem inconsequential. Do I even have to mention how all these so-called scientific facts are spun around ( think Inconvenient Truth ).

Lastly, the scientific community holds no claim to absolute certainty about the ultimate reality of anything, or even a moral high ground. If religion has been responsible for starting wars, it has been science and engineering that has enabled it to be carried out with such devastation. So my point is, it's just as important not get all "high and mighty" about science as it is religion or anything else. IMO if it is the truth we are after, we need to be dispassionate about it. Science, philosophy, psychology and religion are all capable of illuminating certain aspects of our lives. It's whether or not we can keep them in perspective that makes the difference.
 
starise I think these people may be on to something. I have been watching my cat VERY close all day and she has not evolved in any way, shape or form. I will continue to observe thru the night and will report back asap if I see any evolving going on.

Thanks a lot I just spit water all over my monitor. I'll keep watching my cats as well. Rofl.
 
The "not enough available information" is the standard defense, but that doesn't make the initial scientific estimates correct. The scientists were wrong, period. Where you are correct is that ideally the scientific method is supposed to be open to recalibration upon receipt of new data. However that doesn't always happen like it should because of scientific politics. Regarding the Global Warming debacle, the pro GW propaganda is that scientists are unanimous on the causes of global warming. However the skeptics claim that there is no "unanimous" scientific consensus. The scientific politics focuses on CO2 because it can be linked to carbon credits and world economics. Meanwhile water vapor from jets ( a scientifically far more efficient greenhouse gas ) is seldom mentioned as contributory. Then there are the Earth scientists who chime in with scientific facts and figures involving CO2 from natural sources that make human contributions seem inconsequential. Do I even have to mention how all these so-called scientific facts are spun around ( think Inconvenient Truth ).

Lastly, the scientific community holds no claim to absolute certainty about the ultimate reality of anything, or even a moral high ground. If religion has been responsible for starting wars, it has been science and engineering that has enabled it to be carried out with such devastation. So my point is, it's just as important not get all "high and mighty" about science either. IMO if it is the truth we are after, we need to be dispassionate about it. Science, philosophy, psychology and religion are all capable of illuminating certain aspects of our lives. It's whether or not we can keep them in perspective that makes the difference.

I agree 100%, if I come off as high and mighty it's not my intention, more of a side effect of frustration because I keep hearing the same crap over and over again from people who haven't taken the time to do the actual research on something that they are so certain is wrong to the point of repeating the same already dealt with and debunked points over and over and over again....

On global warming I've never claimed a 100% consensus and I doubt any credible scientists have as well, the last figures were 97% of scientists who are involved in climate science or a related field and who are members of the National Academy of Sciences are in agreement that climate change is a fact and that humans are a major contributing factor.

I must disagree with you on the science and engineering being equally responsible with religion when it comes to warfare. Religion has been carrying out wars in the name of God and saving souls by dispatching them to the afterlife long before there even was such a thing as science, saying that they bear equal responsibility is just nonsense. In this day and age one could argue that point but the past speaks for itself and as you've pointed out many times yourself, one could argue anything.
 
On global warming I've never claimed a 100% consensus and I doubt any credible scientists have as well, the last figures were 97% of climate scientists who are members of the National Academy of Sciences are in agreement that climate change is a fact and that humans are a major contributing factor.

The 97% is actually a little higher than that. For a complete explanation read here:
About that overwhelming 97-98% number of scientists that say there is a climate consensus… | Watts Up With That?
 
I agree 100%, if I come off as high and mighty it's not my intention, more of a side effect of frustration because I keep hearing the same crap over and over again from people who haven't taken the time to do the actual research on something that they are so certain is wrong to the point of repeating the same already dealt with and debunked points over and over and over again....

On global warming I've never claimed a 100% consensus and I doubt any credible scientists have as well, the last figures were 97% of scientists who are involved in climate science or a related field and who are members of the National Academy of Sciences are in agreement that climate change is a fact and that humans are a major contributing factor.

I must disagree with you on the science and engineering being equally responsible with religion when it comes to warfare. Religion has been carrying out wars in the name of God and saving souls by dispatching them to the afterlife long before there even was such a thing as science, saying that they bear equal responsibility is just nonsense. In this day and age one could argue that point but the past speaks for itself and as you've pointed out many times yourself, one could argue anything.

My actual quote was, " If religion has been responsible for starting wars, it has been science and engineering that has enabled it to be carried out with such devastation." There is nothing in that quote promoting "equal responsibility". Plenty of non-religious wars have also been waged with the help of science. Ever since science and engineering came into use it's always been contributory to war. But does that make it responsible? It's easy to look at science from a purely detached point of view and hold it up as an ideal that isn't connected to any of our problems, but the fact is that the same can be said about most religions. If we were to embrace all the finer things in religions, we'd be left with some not too bad principles to live by. The problem is that neither science nor religion lets us throw out all the bad stuff and keep only what's good. Human greed for power and resources corrupts the best of all intentions either way. The biggest difference is that the Armageddon made possible by science is real and not just a superstition. Will we survive our "technological adolescence" ( Sagan )? Let's just hope the Doc Strangelove's ( or more correctly General Buck Turgidson's ) and religious nutcases of the world don't get their hands on the nukes. Thankfully for now we still need Presidential orders, special codes, and two sets of keys ( or so it goes in the movies ).
 
Before you tell us how uneducated and idiotic these people are you should look into it.

The Scientific Case Against Evolution

I know you know these peoople and don't believe a thing they have to say. If you did you would have to completely ditch you thinking.

Using ANYTHING from the Institute of Creation Research defeats any intelligent discourse on science and evolution, entirely because these articles are written by people who do not understand evolution and have no foundation in science. They seem to believe if they don't understand (or choose not to understand) something, it is therefore not valid. The arguments they use to defend their positions show a profound lack of understanding in science as they set up flimsy straw men to make their case, assuming they can convert others who also failed basic science class.

Using arguments from the site you gave:

First of all, the lack of a case for evolution is clear from the fact that no one has ever seen it happen. If it were a real process, evolution should still be occurring, and there should be many "transitional" forms that we could observe.
We have drug-resistant bacteria and viruses, entirely because of evolution and it's something we are observing everyday. Seriously, you can Google this. You cannot research "antibiotic resistance" without doing considerable reading about the evolutionary and micro-evolutionary process (unless you read some bible-thumping site which uses wishful thinking instead of proven and observable facts - like the site you just gave). To better understands this, we should first discuss what evolution is rather than what an ignorant few tries to pretend it is. In terms of biology, the definition of evolution (taken from dictionary.com) is the "change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, and genetic drift."


This is exactly why we have drug-resistant bacteria and why, in our own lifetimes, we keep observing this evolution. The constant (and probable overuse) of antibiotics has forced the speedy evolution of bacteria as those which have not had mutations cannot survive and further produce other bacteria with these same mutations. In other words, this is the evolutionary process in action via natural selection - and it's why your doctor tells you to finish your antibiotics even if all symptoms of the illness are gone. Within viruses, we have even seen the evolutionary process take place within a few hours due to natural selection. We have also seen it happen within the reptile kingdom among a few months after witnessing the devastating affects of a hurricane on an island.

Many creationists get perturbed over the Darwin "walking fish" symbol, insisting that this is hooey because "fish don't walk" - which would be correct except for all the times they do walk. There are types of ambulatory fish that can travel over land for extended periods of time and are often referred to as "amphibious fish." Again, please Google this. It is also an example of a "missing link" creationists love to pretend doesn't exist. Google "Tiktaalik roseae" which appears to be a link between fish and tetrapods (four-legged animals).

Going on to the next point in your article:
Evolution Never Happened in the Past
Evolutionists commonly answer the above criticism by claiming that evolution goes too slowly for us to see it happening today. They used to claim that the real evidence for evolution was in the fossil record of the past, but the fact is that the billions of known fossils do not include a single unequivocal transitional form with transitional structures in the process of evolving.
This is, of course, complete bullshit. (Sorry, Gene, for my use of a naughty word.) First, I just gave an example of this happening today (drug-resistant bacteria and viruses, reptiles on a devastated island) and how it's being observed. There's also plenty of evidence in the fossil record. Just Google the whole "ambulatory fish" thing and "Tiktaalik roseae" . We see evolution in fossils all the time, linking dinosaurs to birds and fish to amphibians - and in the case of Tiktaalik roseae, eventually to tetrapods. From the fossil record, we can see that animals without backbones predate vertebrates. Fish appear prior to amphibians, which in turn appear prior to tetrapods. All of these show how the evolution happened and what traits appeared when, eventually evolving into new species.

All other arguments he makes are based upon his already provably faulty notions. He goes onto explain how badly he understands genetics and founds his logic on his statement that, "There is no reason whatever why the Creator could not or would not use the same type of genetic code based on DNA for all His created life forms. This is evidence for intelligent design and creation, not evolution."

Really? That's his idea of a "fact"? This man's brain is a slave and it's unfortunate that he's enslaving yours rather than asking for objective proof rather than wishful thinking. We see evolution in action every single day. We see it throughout the fossil record. He chooses to ignore this rather than challenge his belief in an invisible super-being.
Let me ask you this: Why even ask questions if all you need to do for an answer is say that "God is responsible"?

One final note: You may believe an article claiming it's a "Scientific Case Against Evolution" written by a man with a PhD after his name is somehow founded in solid science rather than a deliberate lack thereof. The late Henry M. Morris, PhD, got his doctorate in hydraulic engineering back in 1950 and later was a professor of civil engineering at the University of Louisiana in 1951.

Those are solid credentials - in engineering. It no more gives him the credibility to discuss evolutionary biology (or any biology) than someone with a doctorate in art history has credentials to operate on your hemorrhoids. The man got himself tied up with a Seventh Day Adventist who neither understood nor liked modern science and the rest, they say, is history. Morris continued to exploit the uneducated by insisting that the King James Bible should serve as a sort of ultimate authority in pretty much anything and everything. This should offer you a Pretty Big Clue about how he tries to explain science and why you shouldn't offer your intellectual validation to such a person.

One final thing you need to understand: Science is not about accepting things on faith without question. No scientist ever kicks back and says, "Well, my work here is done. There's nothing left to discover." Information is always being found and added to scientific debate. This does not mean that scientific debate is wrong. Most new knowledge only builds and expands on old knowledge. This is a far cry from saying "God did it because some old book says so."
 
I'm not trying to be an ass about it but that seriously was one of the absolute worst and most unscientific articles I've ever read in my entire life. It's not surprising at all that he's an engineer, if he was a biologist or had a degree in a related field I'd have to question the integrity of the university that gave him a degree while allowing him to hold onto so many wrongheaded notions about not only evolution but scientific processes in general. Please do some actual reading of actual scientific material on evolution and not just creationist propaganda horseshite before you go around dismissing something which you clearly have no clue about. Not trying to be arrogant about it, I'm just being honest with you...
 
starise I think these people may be on to something. I have been watching my cat VERY close all day and she has not evolved in any way, shape or form. I will continue to observe thru the night and will report back asap if I see any evolving going on.

Well, I don't know about your cat Pixel, but my sister certainly proved "reverse" evolution....she gave birth to a chimp from hell. The little terror certainly proves some sort of de-evolution....or maybe demonic possession....or something. Definatly not human.
 
Before you tell us how uneducated and idiotic these people are you should look into it.

The Scientific Case Against Evolution

I know you know these peoople and don't believe a thing they have to say. If you did you would have to completely ditch you thinking.

Starise, it all boils down to this: If some Christians didn't see Evolution as a danger to thier religion (disproving it somehow), there would be NO discussion about the fact of evolution.
There would be no fact twisting, distorting or outright lying.
There would be no manufacture of pseudo-psycho-sciencey-babble to get around provable facts.

Is there any argument that the Earth orbits the sun? Not now, but that heresy put Galileo in house arrest for the last 12 years of his life, and only became accepted because the evidence was just too overwhelming to hide/lie about it anymore. Time will let the truth prevail.

Since you are so against Evolution, answer these questions if you can;
1. Why can we observe stars in every stage of evolving from gas clouds to main sequence to red giant to novas?
2. Why is the geologic record so neat and tidy filled with less and less complex lifeforms the further down(and older) stratums you go? Rabbits and humans DO NOT appear with T-Rex's, nor do cows or horses. No trilobites with Diplodicus' either (two different geological ages).
3. We share 98% of the same genes as a chimp, and 80% of a mouse's. How can you explain that without humans, chimps and mice having a common ancestor somewhere back there?
4. Microbes and fruit flies are routinely forced to evolve over several generations in laboratories a great deal. Do you not consider that evolution?
Don't you think the same genetic mechanisms are working through ALL living things?

I found this on another website. Maybe this will give you insight without troubling you about your religion.
"So yes, Evolution is a fact. It is a process just like weather and the solar system. But it is much more than that. It is God's way of ensuring that people choose Him through faith and not by proof. The last thing that any Christian should want is proof of God or the destruction of evolution because proof of God would destroy faith and the entire purpose of being here in the first place. "

Hope that helps.
 
Good post Exo. I am constantly surprised by some Christians' desperately hanging onto anything that denies evolution. It is true there are a few things that evolution does not explain as well as others but the evidence for gradual change and natural selection is pretty overwhelming IMO.

And, possibly most importantly, I don't see the Theory of Evolution as any threat to a belief in god. I see no problem for Christians to just see evolution as something that god set in motion. So god is still the creator of everything, it's just that he didn't 'magic' us into being fully formed at the same time. He made it so we evolved. I see it as that simple and also just as amazing as if we had popped up all ready to go.

If you believe in god, that is absolutely fine, but no-one can seriously think the Earth is only 6 or so thousand years old. If you accept the Earth is billions of years old then it really is just pure stupidity to think that man and other animals appeared virtually overnight fully-formed. I've said plenty times in this forum that a good portion of my relatives are very religious but I know that not one of them believe the Earth is so young and that none of their ministers think or teach that either.
 
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