Angel of Ioren
Friendly Skeptic
My thoughts are that what Walter has described can be explained in non-paranormal ways. If one wants to make it paranormal, that's fine, I'll nod and smile.
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My thoughts are that what Walter has described can be explained in non-paranormal ways. If one wants to make it paranormal, that's fine, I'll nod and smile.
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
That would require a bit more information from you I would imagine.
---------- Post added at 12:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:27 PM ----------
Apparently you have difficulty understanding the difference between "literal" and "interpretation." I've bent over backward I believe in trying to make my point about the difference between what someone experiences and how it is interpreted. Quite frankly Kieran I don't care what you think of me.
Walter Bosley
Paranormal Adept
Angel: I'd rather not talk to someone whose name I don't know anyway. I can take your opinions no more seriously than you take mine when you don't stand by them enough to identify yourself.
Goodbye ladies...
Goodbye ladies...
justcurious
Flying Kitchenettes
You all know and probably agree with Arthur C. Clarcke famous quote "Any sufficiently advanced technology would appear as magic". So you would probably agree with this variation : "Any natural phenomenon sufficiently beyond the current grasp of science would appear as paranormal"
We should also agree that science is not "done with" the universe, to me science has barely begun its journey. You can trust reality to have a few [or an infinite number of] surprises in store for science. Hence the fact that there are phenomena that we can yet only qualify as paranormal. That does not make them less fantastic, less real, neither it should reduce the scope of possibilities. We might one day explain things like ghosts as an echo in some yet hypothetical "informational/entropic" field or as having their own ontological reality in a different set of dimensions that sometime interface with ours.
Vallee's way to put it : "The UFO phenomenon tells us that our reality is a subset of a larger reality".
This doesn't implies that some phenomena are forever beyond the grasp of science and at the same time leaves room for the most fantastic events to manifest in our reality.
Anyway science cannot account for 95% of the mass/energy of the universe so we can say that 95% of the universe is still paranormal to science
. Isn't it cool ? That means some fun for a long, long time ahead. A discipline that can only (of its own admission) account for 5% of reality should be more humble about the "paranormal". One last thing, science is a branch of philosophy (please do not object before checking the origins of logic and ontology), so it is very possible that it'd be a temporary tool that we'll leave behind when we find something better. Something that can account for 100% of the universe for example... including flaming Goddesses...
Angel of Ioren
Friendly Skeptic
Walter,
My name is Angelo Fiorentino. I'm not quite sure what difference it'll make that you know my name, but if it helps add credibility to my posts and it allows you to discuss your experiences with my skepticism included, I'm all for it.
Angelo
My name is Angelo Fiorentino. I'm not quite sure what difference it'll make that you know my name, but if it helps add credibility to my posts and it allows you to discuss your experiences with my skepticism included, I'm all for it.
Angelo
Kieran
Paranormal Adept
Walter's experience can explained within a rational and logical framework of science. It that what you mean? Angel look you and Train have already passed sentence on Walter's claims, without knowing the full extend of what happened to him out there. And i don't blame Walter for reacting the way he did.
I would assume Walter is aware, and not speaking for Walter here, Just some idle speculation on my part. The two of you Guys have already decided he and this experience, is not what it is reported to be!!! So I guess after careful consideration. Walter has decided to not engage in conversation, just because of that?
While the're might be a literal explanation for what he experienced. I'd never Rush in with two feet first without knowing how deep the floor of the swimming pool is.. Both of you have made a logical error in Deciding before knowing the full facts of what occurred. IF TRAIN was polite and less dismissive. Maybe he would be further ahead in his discussion with Walter now?
Angel of Ioren
Friendly Skeptic
I don't think that's what I have done at all. I definitely haven't made any logical error since I've made my comments based on what I have been told. I have always maintaing that I have provided POSSIBLE explanations. I never say I'm right unless I know I am. If I was there with Walter when he made the observations he talks about, who knows what I would think.
I have had experiences that some would probably describe as paranormal (i.e Alien abduction scenario/evil presence) but I know that it was sleep paralysis. Why is it that I explain those experiences the way I do, and someone else would explain it in a different way? Well, that's what makes us human.
Kieran
Paranormal Adept
Yes, but your previous post is clear. What you wrote are your thoughts.
"You said. "I never say I'm right unless i know i am" But you already have stated what Walter experienced could be explained in non Paranormal way' So you have decided already, having not seen this vision or experience Yourself? He must be wrong (correct) and yes you said you might have a different outlook if you were there yourself, but again, you have in lot of ways decided already, it can not be paranormal in nature!!
When you say Alien abduction scenario/sleep paralysis . What do you mean "ACTUALLY" Explain your experience?
Ron Collins
Curiously Confused
We see the world through our experiences and the experiences of those we trust. Walter has interpreted an event and has described the event to us in the best way he can. It would be nice to say that we shouldn't pass judgement but thats just not reality. I personally have always had extreme skepticism for high strangeness, crop circles, Orbs, and Conspiracy theories. In fact I tend to approach them with a "probably not" attitude. However, I also place a fair amount of credence to the good 'ole BS detector. Walter doesn't trigger my BS detector. I think he believes his interpretation.
This is what is so frustrating about the phenomenon. It is full of single sourced personal experiences that often strain what we normally recognize as possible. In the end we have to evaluate each one and determine if we think it holds water or not.
I think Walter has a lot of balls throwing his name out there and telling the story. I think he was trying to tell Angel that it is easy to mock someone from the shade of anonymity. It was basically a challenge and I think Angel responded well. Though i don't think Angel was mocking him at all. I think they are good and tough lines of questioning about some controversial content.
On a moderation note: The internet is impersonal. It is easy to read into the tone of messages. I think we should all try and be a little less confrontational until someone's intent is clearer. I am OK with a certain level of impassioned discussion so long as it doesn't devolve into people being deliberately nasty to one another.
My opinion on this is particular case is more or less on the fence. Though i am hoping the show today will plant me firmly on one side or the other.
---------- Post added at 04:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:09 PM ----------
Keiran, I think you missed the most crucial word in what Angel is saying.
"But you already have stated what Walter experienced could be explained in non Paranormal way".
I dont think that qualifies as a definitive indictment of the subject.
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
Tell me K, what do you think of the story of the lady who says she saw a vampire and drove her car into a canal as a result?
Kieran
Paranormal Adept
Ron you need to read what Angel said in his previous posts. He said "Can" not "Could" Your being dishonest here in what he actually wrote in that previous post. You probably read my version not Angels post.
---------- Post added at 06:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:23 PM ----------
I believe your talking to me. Lady saw a Vampire and she crashed into a canal. Is this an reported encounter from a women living today, or is this just something you read in a book?
---------- Post added at 06:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:23 PM ----------
I believe your talking to me. Lady saw a Vampire and she crashed into a canal. Is this an reported encounter from a women living today, or is this just something you read in a book?
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
Yes, of course anyone is welcome to respond. Sorry, I thought I had posted the reference earlier in the thread. Here it is
Western Slope woman blames vampire for car crash
Rick Poole
Kieran
Paranormal Adept
Ok Rick. You have provided a good example here to comparing Walters case to. I would have to be honest with you and say yes. It was not a vampire that she saw. But i would be just projecting my view onto a case that i have no information on other than reading what little detail is in that article. Who is the women for example name ( no name given and the video shows an accident with a women involved in it. My disagreements with you, is not an argument. I myself have not accepted or dismissed Walters claims because this experience allegedly happened to him, and i do know if it happened as Walter outlined. It might not have been paranormal in nature, but i can not with 100% accuracy claim it was not, how he described it.
PS i want to thank you, for highlighting the show Fringe. That show is not aired on TV over here. I found a website that streams the episodes on the web. The MAD scientist is great fun. It is also intriguing some of the episodes are filmed in New York. One of the episodes was filmed in a forest just outside of New York. The Hudson valley came to mind when i was watching this. Well the Theory is, the Hudson valley there is window areas scattered around this area which bring you to another place.
Whatever she saw made her want to throw her car in reverse and get out of there.The shear implausibility of her story makes me think she's telling the truth, from her perspective. A deliberate liar would make up something more believable. Of course, I doubt it was a vampire (besides all the other reasons, she's still alive, right?).
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
Walter ...in the show, is not mad, he is just sanity challenged. Please try to be a little more politically correct in the future.
Angel of Ioren
Friendly Skeptic
You are absolutely right to say that I posted my thoughts, I don't think there is anything "paranormal" going on, but I can't say I'm right.
With regards to my experience: It's happened a few times - i felt like there was something in the room. One time it looked like the typical alien. I know it was sleep paralysis because it's exactly what sleep paralysis is. I'm sure someone of another frame of mind would swear up and down that it was aliens.
---------- Post added at 05:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:31 PM ----------
Thanks Ron. What I can explain in a "normal" way, some one else can explain it in a "paranormal" way. I don't believe that I said I was right, but from my perspective, I prefer to go with the more plausible explanation.
Ron Collins
Curiously Confused
You are right. However, it is how I was taking his argument. But, I didn't go back and read the original.
Kieran
Paranormal Adept
Angel, When you say, it looked like a Typical Alien to you. Can you describe this experience for me? Is it normal for Young boys or Girls to experience seeing Aliens during these Sleep paralysis episodes? I had a couple of Sleep paralysis episodes many years ago (15 at the time) a mild form, maybe not. I was frozen to the spot, could not move for a minute or so (body could not move, but my brain was alert) But i never had these visions of seeing Objects and Aliens. For me here, i have to question. Why would people experience such a phenomenon, 'WHY' not something else? Like how many people actually dream about Aliens and UFOs over a lifetime. I remember one or two dreams "Max" during my life to date that involved stuff were i saw UFOs and Aliens. If you Angel, saw the same exact Aliens as people saw in Abduction accounts, Then we have a serious problem!!!
Sorry if i you believe i was being hard on you? As you have now, in this post outlined your position. I remove myself from arguing or debating with you on this matter.
justcurious
Flying Kitchenettes
I ask myself the same questions as Kieran.
I had one sleep paralysis episode as a teen, upon waking up, I couldn't move or speak for a minute, but didn't have any hallucinations or sense of presence.
dyingsun
Paranormal Adept
I find this very interesting as well, as stated before, I had the visual of a small hooded(think like a monks in the middle-ages)'humanoid' at the foot of my bed when I experienced this.
At that time, I had no interest or knowledge of Ufology or, for that matter, anything paranormally related whatsoever.
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