Bosley's Cop-out Antithesis

[Angel of Ioren]

You asked if that was acceptable. If you're an asshole and don't follow the rules, that's unacceptable in the forum, and you'll get banned. Despite our differences, I don't want you to get banned.

 

[justcurious]

I think he was trying to say that folks shouldn't turn into paranormal prima donnas (or would that be divas?) if someone expresses a contrary point of view about their experiences or their opinions about them.

Trained, it is now official, you have occult powers, you actually understood my post !

Not to mention my humour, which is clearly PARANORMAL...

BOOOH, PARA-BOOH !!!

 

[trainedobserver]

Trained, it is now official, you have occult powers, you actually understood my post !

Can I get a certificate or something? Something I can show folks and say, "See! Occult Powers! Says so right there!"

 

[justcurious]

Can I get a certificate or something? Something I can show folks and say, "See! Occult Powers! Says so right there!"

Sure, just send me a drop of blood, (a scanned .gif of it will do).

disclaimer: your personal dna informations might be sold to a third party, possibly but not necessarily in this galaxy/dimension

 

[trainedobserver]

So, from where I stand, it is clear that normality/rationality is only one half of reality.

Perhaps my occult powers have failed and I am misunderstanding you ... but maybe not. You seem to be purposing that there are aspects of reality (I assume you speaking of the paranormal) where irrational interpretations or responses to it are useful. I don't think that is true. I certainly cannot think of a situation where that would be so.

It appears that you are searching for some alternative tools to understand the world, and your experiences with other than science and reason. What on earth can that be I wonder? Irrationality, superstition, magical thinking, pseudo-science, and so forth have been largely abandoned by human civilization as a means for understanding and controlling its environment ... and for very good reasons. Those things don't work. While they may appear to work at times they doesn't produce reliable, consistent, or predictable results and therefore only add to the confusion and misery of humankind.

Your paranormal experiences will either yield their truth to reason and reasonable methodology or they will not. If it doesn't then seeking answers in our imaginations, superstition, or irrational speculation isn't going to yield any truth either, no matter how happy or unhappy it makes us. The answer lies in refining our known good ways of thinking and methodologies and not in abandoning them.

 

[justcurious]

It appears that you are searching for some alternative tools to understand the world, and your experiences with other than science and reason. What on earth can that be I wonder?

Not alternative, complementary... Yes to me the "calculable" is only one side of reality, you can choose to think otherwise. Or you might as well ask me to prove that I love my family with a pocket calculator. Or are you saying that the day will we be able to truly appreciate a concert or a sunset by reading a prompt on a screen will be the true end of the Dark Age ? I am also a logical person. You implied that the non-calculable is intrinsically wrong by using slightly pejorative terms like "Irrationality, superstition, magical thinking, pseudo-science", as if it was the only things that intuitions, feelings and emotions has brought to the world. (?!)

I am not aware that the "Déclaration des Droits de l'Homme et du Citoyen" (Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) was the product of a laboratory experiment.
And that was just an example, I could as well cite Bach Cello Suites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cello_Suites_(Bach)), and literally HALF of human achievements...

Could you have a look at my signature ? Just a brain teaser really.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Yes to me the "calculable" is only one side of reality, you can choose to think otherwise. Or you might as well ask me to prove that I love my family with a pocket calculator. Or are you saying that the day will we be able to truly appreciate a concert or a sunset by reading a prompt on a screen will be the true end of the Dark Age ? I am also a logical person. You implied that the non-calculable is intrinsically wrong by using slightly pejorative terms like "Irrationality, superstition, magical thinking, pseudo-science", as if it was the only things that intuitions, feelings and emotions has brought to the world. (?!)

Well that's a logical fallacy if I ever saw one. The fact that one loves his family or likes certain music is not in any way paranormal and can be calculated by science. Those, along with all other human experiences stimulate the brain in certain ways, which determines why some of us like certain things over others.

 

[trainedobserver]

Not alternative, complementary... Yes to me the "calculable" is only one side of reality, you can choose to think otherwise. Or you might as well ask me to prove that I love my family with a pocket calculator.

That would be an example of using the wrong tool for the job. We don't use the scientific methodologies used in the study of human behavior in an attempt to understand the mechanics of planetary orbits, however it doesn't invalidate sociology or physics does it?

...intuitions, feelings and emotions has brought to the world.

Intuitions, feelings, and emotions are demonstratively unreliable and inconsistent when it comes to understanding the world outside of our skulls (or inside I skulls for that matter.)

I am not aware that the "Déclaration des Droits de l'Homme et du Citoyen" (Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) was the product of a laboratory experiment.

Politics was the science that produced that document from laboratory of French society.

I think you are mischaracterizing things a bit (albeit unintentionally) in your argument.

 

[justcurious]

Well that's a logical fallacy if I ever saw one. The fact that one loves his family or likes certain music is not in any way paranormal and can be calculated by science. Those, along with all other human experiences stimulate the brain in certain ways, which determines why some of us like certain things over others.

Angel, are you saying that one day science will be able to determine if you love your kids more than I love mine by a blood test or a brain scan? Just asking, what does skeptoids has to say about that ? You are flirting with eugenics* here do you realise it ? :

*http://www.eugenics.net/

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Angel, are you saying that one day science will be able to determine if you love your kids more than I love mine by a blood test or a brain scan? Just asking, what does skeptoids has to say about that ? You are flirting with eugenics* here do you realise it ? :

*http://www.eugenics.net/

I don't see how this has anything to do with eugenics at all. Feelings, such as love, are part of human chemistry. If you want to think it's paranormal, well, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[justcurious]

That would be an example of using the wrong tool for the job.

Wrong tool for the job ? So there are other (complementary) tools ? I agree ...

 

[trainedobserver]

Angel, are you saying that one day science will be able to determine if you love your kids more than I love mine by a blood test or a brain scan? Just asking, what does skeptoids has to say about that ? You are flirting with eugenics* here do you realise it ? :
*http://www.eugenics.net/

Not to speak for the Angel but,
If you can agree on a definition of what "love" is and can quantify it by some means then yes you could do that. Perhaps not by a blood test, maybe by a brain scan of some type, but most certainly by observing your behavior. Do you exhibit behaviors that signify love for your kids? Certainly. Can you quantify them? Sure. Can you compare data about your behaviors with someone else's behaviors and draw some conclusion about which exhibits more "loving behaviors?" Sure you can.

This has nothing to do with eugenics.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Not to speak for the Angel but,
If you can agree on a definition of what "love" is and can quantify it by some means then yes you could do that. Perhaps not by a blood test, maybe by a brain scan of some type, but most certainly by observing your behavior. Do you exhibit behaviors that signify love for your kids? Certainly. Can you quantify them? Sure. Can you compare data about your behaviors with someone else's behaviors and draw some conclusion about which exhibits more "loving behaviors?" Sure you can.

This has nothing to do with eugenics.

I should have you always speak for me - you are more eloquent than I.
Thanks,
A

 

[justcurious]

Not to speak for the Angel but,
If you can agree on a definition of what "love" is and can quantify it by some means then yes you could do that. Perhaps not by a blood test, maybe by a brain scan of some type, but most certainly by observing your behavior. Do you exhibit behaviors that signify love for your kids? Certainly. Can you quantify them? Sure. Can you compare data about your behaviors with someone else's behaviors and draw some conclusion about which exhibits more "loving behaviors?" Sure you can.

This has nothing to do with eugenics.

Okay,

So by quantifying behaviours you could calculate the best breeding patterns for the human specie right ? Why not do it if we can? Let science (and only science) save us !
If you think so, that's eugenics...( http://www.eugenics.net/ really, check it) which I won't try to disgust you from, because it is your right, as a human being, to choose your own course on a ideological (incalculable) basis.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Okay,

So by quantifying behaviours you could calculate the best breeding patterns for the human specie right ? Why not do it if we can? Let science (and only science) save us !
If you think so, that's eugenics...( http://www.eugenics.net/ really, check it) which I won't try to disgust you from, because it is your right, as a human being, to choose your own course on a ideological (incalculable) basis.

You really need to stop putting words in his mouth. You're making a huge leap there. You're a logical fallacy machine today.

 

[trainedobserver]

Wrong tool for the job ? So there are other (complementary) tools ? I agree ...

Intuition, feelings, and emotions are tools of the arts and not ones for understanding the world outside of the human mind. The various branches of science have different disciplines and methodologies but they all remain anchored in reason. You have yet to make a valid argument against science and reason or to describe a viable alternative. You're jacking with me now. You risk me using my new found occult powers to scramble the presets on your car radio.

---------- Post added at 01:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:22 PM ----------

You really need to stop putting words in his mouth. You're making a huge leap there. You're a logical fallacy machine today.

I think that qualifies as paranormal prima donna like behavior. I've seen it before somewhere ...

Just to clarify here ...putting words in someone else's mouth is what qualifies as paranormal prima donna like behavior ...not Angel's comment about it.

 

[justcurious]

Intuition, feelings, and emotions are tools of the arts and not ones for understanding the world outside of the human mind. The various branches of science have different disciplines and methodologies but they all remain anchored in reason. You have yet to make a valid argument against science and reason or to describe a viable alternative. You're jacking with me now. You risk me using my new found occult powers to scramble the presets on your car radio.

---------- Post added at 01:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:22 PM ----------



I think that qualifies as paranormal prima donna like behavior. I've seen it before somewhere ...

You might have forgotten a word, but I can't prove it, in the mean time I took the liberty to add it in blue.

I do not wish to make "an argument against" science ! Is this compulsory or what ? I am advocating complementarity...

Okay, our argument tonight was revolving around the fact that you think that rationalism (a method or a theory "in which the criterion of the truth is not sensory but intellectual and deductive") is a given when it is actually a philosophical choice/view.

What I mean to say is that in the first place your (or anybody's) choice of world view is philosophical anyway! You cannot prove mathematically that everything can be proved mathematically okay ? Or prove me wrong, you're the proof guys right ? Science is a branch of philosophy, check it or be like religious fundamentalists.

And please ponder on the notion of complementarity please...See that it implies equality between your pocket calculator view of the universe and my (perceived) sentimental view. I was just arguing for equality of views when I actually embrace both ! You've got two legs to walk no ? And two brains no ? With just one leg you're hopping, with one brain you're hoping...(angel pls read slowly)

Guys I am in south-east Asia, roughly 10/12 hours ahead (no pun intended) of you, I have been arguing (real time) with both of you for 2 hours, I am now going to bed to give (incalculable) love to my wife. See you tom. Thx for the fun .

 

[trainedobserver]

You might have forgotten a word, but I can't prove it, in the mean time I took the liberty to add it in blue.

Yes, thank you, that was what I intended to say.

Science and reason trump sentimentality (if that is how you wish to characterize the "complementary" viewpoint) when it comes to correctly interpreting and understanding the world around us ...that is an undeniable fact. And I take exception to your "pocket calculator view of the universe" mischaracterization of my viewpoint.

B.T.W. My latest avatar features George King in a full on trance channeling his imaginary friend from Venus. Now ... George's feelings, intuition, and emotions were telling him he was getting design specs for spiritual devices (Spiritual Energy Batteries, Radiators, etc.) that would allow him to balance the karma of mankind, cure disease, stop wars, and so forth. He founded a religion that is still being practiced by people today. All of George's irrational, unscientific, and dare I say sentimental approach to world change through karmic theory has apparently been for naught though. How many more fortunes and lives will be thrown down the black hole of the Aetherius Society with similar effect for similar reasons?

 

[NTS]

There's a difference between studying the world and living in it. We use science and reason to study the world as an object, which hopefully enables us to live better lives. But we really can't live in the world as human beings with just science and reason. If we could the perfect human would be a psychopath, to whom everything (including other people) is just an object to be manipulated. Feelings, intuitions, and emotions are essential to our humanity, and those luckily rare people who don't have them are very frightening people indeed.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

There's a difference between studying the world and living in it. We use science and reason to study the world as an object, which hopefully enables us to live better lives. But we really can't live in the world as human beings with just science and reason. If we could the perfect human would be a psychopath, to whom everything (including other people) is just an object to be manipulated. Feelings, intuitions, and emotions are essential to our humanity, and those luckily rare people who don't have them are very frightening people indeed.

I don't think anyone is saying that we should live our lives using only science and reason. However, I don't think that we should attribute things that we don't understand to magic. When my child asks me who built the pyramids, I'm going to tell her that over many years, the ancient Egyptians built them using the tools that they had at the time. I'm not going to say that aliens helped them.