Bosley's Cop-out Antithesis

[justcurious]

I don't think anyone is saying that we should live our lives using only science and reason. However, I don't think that we should attribute things that we don't understand to magic. When my child asks me who built the pyramids, I'm going to tell her that over many years, the ancient Egyptians built them using the tools that they had at the time. I'm not going to say that aliens helped them.

Good morning Angel,
Actually my son (11) already asked me this question, to witch I answered by telling him what the mainstream consensus is, and presented other theories as well, he will make-up his own mind later. In the mean time I let his wonderful kid's imagination take him where it is harder and harder for me to go.

Could you please reconsider that infraction for insults that you have put on me ? I apologise if I disturbed you even though I think I was not insulting, just ironic. Thank you for giving it a thought.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Good morning Angel,
Actually my son (11) already asked me this question, to witch I answered by telling him what the mainstream consensus is, and presented other theories as well, he will make-up his own mind later. In the mean time I let his wonderful kid's imagination take him where it is harder and harder for me to go.

Could you please reconsider that infraction for insults that you have put on me ? I apologise if I disturbed you even though I think I was not insulting, just ironic. Thank you for giving it a thought.

I feel quite differently about that. I'm not going to give my child incorrect information about history. I have a degree in art history, and some of that covered ancient Egypt. I'll be glad to pass that information on to my child.
With regards to your infraction, I feel it was warranted and we discussed it through PM. Also, it's not like I banned you or anything. If you have more questions about that, please feel free to PM me. It is NOT something that needs to be discussed in this thread.

 

[tyder001]

Sorry, I came in late but I do want to say this. The Eygptians built the pyramids (possibly with slave labor. No spaceships or gods from outer space! But, I do enjoy the speculation and the stories on talk radio late night or a podcast when I take my walk. I don't think we are being visited by aliens from space but I love to hear the stories and I do listen with respect and interest to the abduction accounts. I'm not so arrogant as to think we know it all. As for the paranormal I have my own "experience of it." Otherwise, I would fall into the skeptic camp but once you realise that there is a legitimate experience that materilism and reductionism can account for it collapses the whole house of cards. Same thing for religion. Once, I found that the "literal" "dogma" of the church dones't work (for me) the whole house of cards collapsed as far as looking to a preacher or a guru to confirm my worldview. You might not belive it but it's a little harder to be a free agent than it is to be a "believer" or a "skeptic" I have no "buds" or "groups" to validate me. I don't get the "free thinkers" or the "rightous" to "free" or "save" me. I am equally at odds with the evangelical bible thumper and the reductionist atheist. I do have a bible and I find real wisdom in it. Please don't insert the apparent non sense that is in it here. I've already said I'm not a fundie. I am in awe of the human mind (I think the mind of God) that can take a beating heart out of one body and place it in another. I stand amazed at the process and the march of knowledge that men and women of science have accomplished. It's just that (to me) that just affiirms the spirit and the reality that "mankind" is a spark of the devine. But, I don't have or need to prove it.

I'm here not to "lead you to Jesus" or convince you of the reality of being the Budda! I'm not here to yell an angry old man in the sky buried the bones of dino to fool you. I'm here because I have had a life long interest both in the spiritual and I have had a life long "inner dialog" with spirit. Some would say well you've had a life long inner dialog with yourself. Maybe I have but maybe that's still God I really don't know. But, I've also had life long expereince that points me to the reality that there is more going on than talking to myself.

It seems to me (and I could be wrong) that many of the more "spritualy seeking folks" have left or are intimidated on these forums. Or maybe it's just that I am more interested in EVP and N.D.E.'s than nuts and bolts space craft and this is more that kind of forum. It really doens't matter because I find many here that I enjoy talking to and many that I find close minded. I find myself dropping in and getting my mouth running and then kind of pulling away and just reading for a while. Anyway, it's an interesting forum at times and at times it's like a jimmy randi convention. I guess that's o.k. I find myself challenged to present my views carefully and to not be sloppy here. Cause if you are sloppy on this forum somebody will "eat you up." That can be a good thing cause it keeps you sharp.

 

[trainedobserver]

When we are talking about studying paranormal phenomena (which is what I thought we were really talking about) science and reason are the only reliable tools that we have. All else, that I have any experience with or knowledge of, is pretty worthless. Things like revealed knowledge, intuition, and emotional responses, which can easily manipulated in folks, don't make for good truth meters.

 

[tyder001]

Disagree!

Don't mean to be flip cause I know you are honest about what you feel and I appreciate that. It's just that we are not gonna agree on this one. A thousand atheist dancing on the head of a pin can't make me any less sure of what I know about my life. A thousand evangelicals coming in the clouds can't make me think God is an angry old man ready to fry me. So, back to the subject at hand. I think because of the name "Paracast" that maybe I have expected more than just nuts and bolts flying saucer stuff. However, that's o.k. I'll continue to listen to the Paracast but I will "mix" it with stuff like "The Conspiracy Show" with Richard Syrett and even the dreaded Coast 2 Coast when they have a decent guest and I can try to tune out the irritation of George N. I look forward to future editions of the Paracast. Also, as I said in my earlier post. This forum keeps ya on your toes and that is a good thing. (I think)

 

[NTS]

I tend to agree with the philosopher William James on this. The quote below is from "The Varieties of Religious Experience" but I think it applies to some paranormal experiences as well:

"There are moments of sentimental and mystical experience...that carry an enormous sense of inner authority and illumination with them when they come. But they come seldom, and they do not come to everyone; and the rest of life makes either no connection with them, or tends to contradict them more than it confirms them. Some persons follow more the voice of the moment in these cases, some prefer to be guided by the average results. Hence the sad discordancy of so many of the spiritual judgments of human beings..."

 

[Walter Bosley]

Hey guys, I just got back from four days at Comic Con, doing business and having fun.

Just to clarify, any defensive behavior on my part a while back was inspired by particular attacks on my character in which the words 'fraud' and 'liar' had been used more than once, and uncalled for (not to mention on the edge of certain laws, regardless how 'public' one is as a figure from being a guest on a podcast...). I reserve the right to not simply take such charges, and I would never expect anyone here to just 'be cool' with being called such publicly. Anyway, that has been addressed and is closed, as far as I'm concerned. Most of the people who did not agree with my speculations or conclusions did not go there, and I really have no problem with being reasonably disagreed with.

I think also that some people might have been bothered by my inability to provide evidence or be convincing, and my unwillingness to debate. I was just being honest.

Regarding my position about getting out there and investigating yourself, I will defer to Greg Bishop who has heard me say that on his show more than once a few years BEFORE all the brouhaha here. That position is in no way a result of any shenanigans here, I assure you. It's a genuine opinion and it is usually delivered in an encouraging spirit, not judgmental. A critical response to anyone's research is a separate issue and will naturally occur. My suggestion is actually aimed at expressing a position that the individual doing the field investigation may indeed experience the phenomena more personally. Or they might not at all. The point is, you can't really know unless you try. Yes, it is also possible that some who are a little more extremely critical may be surprised after they investigate for themselves. It's merely a suggestion.

Investigation doesn't necessarily mean expeditions to the field. One can explore available literature more widely and deeply. My point was also to suggest one go to the original source materials, where possible, rather than just study/read the research and conclusions of others. Again, a sincere suggestion not delivered as a knee-jerk reaction to anything.

Anyway, after having spent four very productive and enjoyable days on other aspects of my personal and professional life, I'm rather not so concerned about some things that bothered me here before. It just doesn't matter

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Hey guys, I just got back from four days at Comic Con, doing business and having fun.

Lucky you. I hope that you had a good time.

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Hey guys, I just got back from four days at Comic Con, doing business and having fun.

Just to clarify, any defensive behavior on my part a while back was inspired by particular attacks on my character in which the words 'fraud' and 'liar' had been used more than once, and uncalled for (not to mention on the edge of certain laws, regardless how 'public' one is as a figure from being a guest on a podcast...). I reserve the right to not simply take such charges, and I would never expect anyone here to just 'be cool' with being called such publicly. Anyway, that has been addressed and is closed, as far as I'm concerned. Most of the people who did not agree with my speculations or conclusions did not go there, and I really have no problem with being reasonably disagreed with.

I think also that some people might have been bothered by my inability to provide evidence or be convincing, and my unwillingness to debate. I was just being honest.

Regarding my position about getting out there and investigating yourself, I will defer to Greg Bishop who has heard me say that on his show more than once a few years BEFORE all the brouhaha here. That position is in no way a result of any shenanigans here, I assure you. It's a genuine opinion and it is usually delivered in an encouraging spirit, not judgmental. A critical response to anyone's research is a separate issue and will naturally occur. My suggestion is actually aimed at expressing a position that the individual doing the field investigation may indeed experience the phenomena more personally. Or they might not at all. The point is, you can't really know unless you try. Yes, it is also possible that some who are a little more extremely critical may be surprised after they investigate for themselves. It's merely a suggestion.

Investigation doesn't necessarily mean expeditions to the field. One can explore available literature more widely and deeply. My point was also to suggest one go to the original source materials, where possible, rather than just study/read the research and conclusions of others. Again, a sincere suggestion not delivered as a knee-jerk reaction to anything.

Anyway, after having spent four very productive and enjoyable days on other aspects of my personal and professional life, I'm rather not so concerned about some things that bothered me here before. It just doesn't matter

I found 'Commander Bosley' (thanks for your service) quiet interesting indeed subject which seems to collate wit Dr Phil Imborgo regarding the "Jinn' and do these caves cross over these lay lines in the Middle East and around the World. Furthermore, it reminds me of an conversation with a great aunties friend who believed in lay lines. Both were Welsh and the older lady was a so called white witch man her hair was as white snow (I didn't no they were still were around since the witching hunts ). If my memory is correct the Welsh druids spoke of lay lines held mystic spirits and had some type of connection to the longest day of the year during full moon nights would reveal the location of these but that childhood memories.of encounter with a white witch

 

[The Pair of Cats]

Hey guys, I just got back from four days at Comic Con, doing business and having fun.

Good to hear from you again, Walter.

 

[trainedobserver]

I don't think anyone is saying that we should live our lives using only science and reason. However, I don't think that we should attribute things that we don't understand to magic. When my child asks me who built the pyramids, I'm going to tell her that over many years, the ancient Egyptians built them using the tools that they had at the time. I'm not going to say that aliens helped them.

I couldn't have said it better.

---------- Post added at 08:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:22 AM ----------

There's a difference between studying the world and living in it. We use science and reason to study the world as an object, which hopefully enables us to live better lives. But we really can't live in the world as human beings with just science and reason. If we could the perfect human would be a psychopath, to whom everything (including other people) is just an object to be manipulated. Feelings, intuitions, and emotions are essential to our humanity, and those luckily rare people who don't have them are very frightening people indeed.

People who do not understand their feelings, emotions, and intuitions and place unmerited weight on their significance in a given situation are truly frightening and dangerous. Like all things in life it is a matter of balance.

Through education of science humanity has been able to largely shrug off the limitations of ignorance and superstition to its betterment. Through science we can better understand our emotions and inner life and not be total slaves to them as many people have been and are. History is there for anyone who cares to look at it. I dare say you will find that superstitious belief, fueled by irrational thinking and unfettered emotion is the cause for much of humanities misery even today.

Humans are emotional beings that cannot be denied. However, emotions have a particular function, one of which is not the discernment of truth. When emotions are the litmus for truth then error and misery soon follow.

 

[The Pair of Cats]

I don't think anyone is saying that we should live our lives using only science and reason. However, I don't think that we should attribute things that we don't understand to magic. When my child asks me who built the pyramids, I'm going to tell her that over many years, the ancient Egyptians built them using the tools that they had at the time. I'm not going to say that aliens helped them.

I would prefer to let my child make up their own mind in regards to the pyramids and to question the "stock" answers to all of these types of questions.

....Humans are emotional beings that cannot be denied. However, emotions have a particular function, one of which is not the discernment of truth. When emotions are the litmus for truth then error and misery soon follow

I suppose that's okay....if you are a robot. Which emotions are they?The truth encompasses all things but as you rightly put it " in moderation". To dismiss emotional content in all truth seeking situations is naive and ignorant. Ask a cop if they dismiss the emotional factor when investigating crimes of passion such as some murders or some assaults.
Ask a rape victim how they felt when being attacked. Or the troops who found the concentration camps in Germany towards the end of WW2. Was their "truth" lessened when some broke down, emotionally, when describing to the authorities the horrors that they saw? I don't think so!!!

 

[Ron Collins]

I suppose that's okay....if you are a robot. Which emotions are they?The truth encompasses all things but as you rightly put it " in moderation". To dismiss emotional content in all truth seeking situations is naive and ignorant. Ask a cop if they dismiss the emotional factor when investigating crimes of passion such as some murders or some assaults.
Ask a rape victim how they felt when being attacked. Or the troops who found the concentration camps in Germany towards the end of WW2. Was their "truth" lessened when some broke down, emotionally, when describing to the authorities the horrors that they saw? I don't think so!!!

I don't think that is the same thing Trained is saying. I doubt he is advocating that we all turn into Vulcans. But more that we apply logic and reason to problems instead of raw emotion. A cop may feel raw emotion while doing their work but the work itself has a basis in science. He/she must still collect evidence using a particular set of processes that have a basis in science. The same with a soldier. They still use logic and reason and technology even in high stress and highly emotional environments. These are not mutually exclusive concepts, logic and emotion. But, when looking for evidence emotion is really only useful as a motivator not as a collection aid. At least in my opinion.

 

[trainedobserver]

I doubt he is advocating that we all turn into Vulcans. But more that we apply logic and reason to problems instead of raw emotion. A cop may feel raw emotion while doing their work but the work itself has a basis in science. He/she must still collect evidence using a particular set of processes that have a basis in science. The same with a soldier. They still use logic and reason and technology even in high stress and highly emotional environments.

Exactly. And besides all of that, I thought we were talking about the investigation of the paranormal specifically. If you are investigating paranormal events or claims what good are emotions? In everyday life we all have inappropriate emotional responses to events at times. How much more so when talking about paranormal events and claims? Given that paranormal events and entities are reportedly capable of inducing emotional reactions in people like fear and love how are you then to trust your own emotional responses in connection with them? Believing something outrageous because of intuition or your emotional response to it is dangerous and you do so at your own peril.

 

[rhcball]

Just for kicks and giggles, Mr. Bosley should try remote viewing UFOs and alleged aliens and the like, in the vein of the closing stages of the government RV project. If he can pull out some decent material, he could probably sell it on the sly to Ed Dames, who would go on to use the info to enlighten the huddled masses tuning into Coast to Coast.

A sound financial investment, I think.

 

[The Pair of Cats]

Exactly. And besides all of that, I thought we were talking about the investigation of the paranormal specifically. If you are investigating paranormal events or claims what good are emotions? In everyday life we all have inappropriate emotional responses to events at times. How much more so when talking about paranormal events and claims? Given that paranormal events and entities are reportedly capable of inducing emotional reactions in people like fear and love how are you then to trust your own emotional responses in connection with them? Believing something outrageous because of intuition or your emotional response to it is dangerous and you do so at your own peril.

You may not trust your emotions or of others, but that does not mean that other persons can be discerning and emotional at the same time. Your intuition should be put to good use in all situations and not just easily dismissed because some science fundamentalist says that it is irrelevant to paranormal investigation. If you dismisss emotions as a tool in any investigation then you are going into such woefully unarmed and that is just as dangerous.
But for the followers of "scientism" (the science fundamentalists) science and only science is the only means by which to solve the paranormal puzzle. The problem is that science isn't anywhere near solving it.

I don't think that is the same thing Trained is saying. I doubt he is advocating that we all turn into Vulcans. But more that we apply logic and reason to problems instead of raw emotion. A cop may feel raw emotion while doing their work but the work itself has a basis in science. He/she must still collect evidence using a particular set of processes that have a basis in science. The same with a soldier. They still use logic and reason and technology even in high stress and highly emotional environments. These are not mutually exclusive concepts, logic and emotion. But, when looking for evidence emotion is really only useful as a motivator not as a collection aid. At least in my opinion.

I don't think that was what i was saying either. If you are someone reporting on an event whether you are a Cop, soldier or news reporter you will take into account the emotions prevelent at the time of any interview with witnesses or suspects. It's hard to fake true emotions (although some are very good at it).Your intuition or gut instinct will tell you whether you believe them or not. And it's your gut instinct that may lead you to finding the correct path to follow. Some of the best investigators in the world (police or otherwise) have finely tuned intuition or gut instincts and that's what makes them as good as they are.
Ask Don Ecker if his gut instinct came into play in any part of his life as a cop or otherwise.
Of course science comes into play here but what i'm advocating is a balance between science and emotion/intuition not a over reliance on either and in that respect i agree with trainedobserver.

 

[Gareth]

Do you play games at all Walter? Check out Halo Reach at Comic Con?

Only a couple months 'til its released. Yay

 

[Walter Bosley]

Actually, the only games I got into were Sims2 and World of Warcraft because of a girlfriend who had an account. After that, I used to hop on WoW for the free month once in a while but haven't done that lately. They can be a time consumer because they're such guilty pleasures. Yes, go ahead and laugh...

 

[Gareth]

No I completely agree. Especially games like WoW (although Ive never played it). They can suck up a LOT of time.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

First off, I'm listening to a lot of podcasts talking about Comic Con - Walter, I am insanely jealous
I'm not looking forward to Halo:Reach though, although my mind may change when I see it. Right now I'm playing Alan Wake and I strongly recommend it. Funny thing about the game, you play an author that's a skeptic who finds himself battling the stuff that he's never believed in - very cool. I'm almost done and I can't wait to see how it ends, especially with the DLC out today. I may start a gaming thread since I'm sure at least a few people here play games.

Now, on to more serious stuff:

You may not trust your emotions or of others, but that does not mean that other persons can be discerning and emotional at the same time. Your intuition should be put to good use in all situations and not just easily dismissed because some science fundamentalist says that it is irrelevant to paranormal investigation. If you dismisss emotions as a tool in any investigation then you are going into such woefully unarmed and that is just as dangerous.
But for the followers of "scientism" (the science fundamentalists) science and only science is the only means by which to solve the paranormal puzzle. The problem is that science isn't anywhere near solving it.

This is what someone that does not understand the scientific method would say. It's really not as black and white as you seem to think, and I'm not sure if I would be able to change your mind, as it seems made up - rational thinkers, or skeptics (true skeptics, not the type that some here think they are) are not mindless robots.
I just find it funny that you are accusing people that use science to solve mysteries as being close minded. We are open minded because once something is proven we will accept it. Can you say the same of a creationist? Or a contactee that's told they had sleep paralysis. Or a "haunting" victim that's shown that the poltergeist was actually their child looking for attention?

You don't think that I feel emotion? You don't think I cried when my cat passed away 3 months ago? Or that the day I saw my daughter born was not one of the wonderful experiences of my life? I live my life and I feel everything around me. The only difference is that I won't tell my children that they pyramids were built by aliens, and I won't say that when something strange happens it has to be paranormal. I want people to think for themselves. If you think that a psychic can help you see you future, good for you and good luck. If you believe in astrology and live your life by that, enjoy it. I prefer to go with what I know. And if I don't know what something is I won't attribute something to it without proof.

I'll live my life living in the world around me that I know exists, enjoying everything that it has to offer. If new things are discovered (psychic powers, aliens contact us, etc.) I'll gladly accept it because I will know it's true.