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Budd Hopkins - The Pioneer of Abduction Research by Kay Wilson

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Well, duh. That's bound to happen when you've got 90% of "experiencers" likely being me-too personalities and/or having confabulated under hypnosis. But there is a core to the subject stronger than all that noise.

Wick, I know there is a core truth to the subject, but I'm not the one going around preaching I have been abducted by number of Black eyed- Grey beings. I'm looking at the evidence and finding some errors.

The descriptions of the beings seen by Betty she clearly said the eyes were not black.. Strieber is not even sure a black eyed creature existed in his experiences, and Travis Walton his beings had large eyes with a brown pupil non had black eyes.. Yet we have lot of reports of people seeing a grey being with black wrapped around eyes, do you not see the problem?
 
Wick, I know there is a core truth to the subject, but I'm not the one going around preaching I have been abducted by number of Black eyed- Grey beings. I'm looking at the evidence and finding some errors.

The descriptions of the beings seen by Betty she clearly said the eyes were not black.. Strieber is not even sure a black eyed creature existed in his experiences, and Travis Walton his beings had large eyes with a brown pupil non had black eyes.. Yet we have lot of reports of people seeing a grey being with black wrapped around eyes, do you not see the problem?

Well, I haven't claimed to ever have had anything happen to me either. But I think you're looking at it in too literal of a way. That there are variations in the descriptions is one of the puzzling things about it. It's almost universal for witnesses to claim mind altering abilities of their abductors and therefor they might be able to cause them to see anything they want to.

---------- Post added at 01:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:05 PM ----------

But if it's really true that you've read about only two cases I don't see how you could possibly be in a position to try to speculate about it. I've read about hundreds and I'm still very much in the dark. You say you've read about Strieber and I very much have some doubts about him. He could be the real thing, I'm just a little suspicious. But at the very least also read about Allagash, Kelly Cahill, Pascagoula, and Travis Walton.
 
Additionally, we've got a kzillion varieties of bees on Earth, cats come in all shapes and sizes and sport a large variety of coats, etc. That doesn't mean neither of those exist. I wish I could remember the article (Sadly, I can't) but I remember reading a while back about the amazing diversity in genetics of same-species in the animal kingdom as opposed to the almost clone-like DNA of humans. We're fairly unique when it comes to that.

---------- Post added at 01:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:34 PM ----------

The evidence strongly suggests that the Walton case is a hoax.

I have a little bit of doubt when it comes to Walton which is why I always list his case as last when quoting my personal "most convincing" list. But I'm more convinced by him than I'm not.
 
Additionally, we've got a kzillion varieties of bees on Earth, cats come in all shapes and sizes and sport a large variety of coats, etc. That doesn't mean neither of those exist. I wish I could remember the article (Sadly, I can't) but I remember reading a while back about the amazing diversity in genetics of same-species in the animal kingdom as opposed to the almost clone-like DNA of humans. We're fairly unique when it comes to that.

---------- Post added at 01:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:34 PM ----------



I have a little bit of doubt when it comes to Walton which is why I always list his case as last when quoting my personal "most convincing" list. But I'm more convinced by him than I'm not.

Bugger, beat me to it. took the very words i was going to post.

On the topic of repainted wandjina, while its true they get "refreshed" as part of tradition i could find nothing to suggest that the image has changed as part of that process.

51R4J3MNG1L._SL210_.jpg

Strangely enough, in 1838, a sea captain discovered an amazing treasure trove of Aboriginal artistry, filled with primitive and powerful wanjina cave pictures. His name was Captain Grey

So we have this image of a white/grey entity with big black eyes recorded as far back as 1838.

Its interesting that this image is so important to the kimberly peoples that they refresh it to keep it in memory
 
The following link is a short synopsis. You can find the details of the poloygraph testing, fraud conviction and Ground Saucer Watch investigation by searching out those specific topics on other websites.

http://ufology.ca/Reference/BD/Walton-01a.htm

As far as I know the lie detector test only proved inconclusive on one member of the group. The rest passed. I read his book a while back (the revised edition) and he explains alot of the details about the lie detector test. He also discusses at length the attempts by some people (Phil Klass mainly) to attack his story and fabricate lies around it. I find him quite convincing. I enjoyed the show with Tracy Torme some months ago. He didn't come accross as a guy who wouldn't thoroughly investigate the case before getting involved. Travis' book is really worth a read.
 
This isn't an attack on the poster ufology but just an observation on skeptics in general. One of the most frequent types is the "Oh you know he/she/it has been thourougly discredited don't you?" No facts or research just that statement alone. Here's another. " Bud Hopkins?" "Travis Walton?" or "Insert name here" Giggle and state " Even the true believers have some problems with them." I even remember a website from some while ago. Two or three years is an eternity on the web. Their thing was to place people in the "Kook" catagory. No real research but just say the name and place Kook beside it. They got Mr. Filer (who has been mentioned here in the forums recently) Bud Hopkins, Travis Walton and even Jaques Vallee in the "Kook" catagory of wierd irrational beliefes. Thing is that site never really explained it. But, from the tone you could tell that they were very smart and rational and the people they were talking about were "mad, quite mad." :p

Everybody "heaps" teachers to their own ears...The bible.
The thing you would not have done to yourself..Don't do to others..The Budda.
You can't hide your lying eyes...The Eagles. 8)
 
McCarthy, the polygraph examiner, insists Travis both failed the polygraph and tried to cheat. This was initially suppressed by APRO, and that would later help to fracture APRO and give birth to MUFON. But if you want to believe a guy who would steal your payroll cheque and forge his name on it to cash it, go ahead.

I thought the polygraph examiner was Gilson? So please fill me in on this McCarthy guy? The wikipedia reference mentions the guy I remember (and the 2009 game show episode) but no McCarthy...It's a while since I read the book, can you refresh my memory?

On Monday, November 10, all of Rogers’ remaining crew took polygraph examinations administered by Cy Gilson, an Arizona Department of Public Safety employee. His questions asked if any of the men caused harm to Travis (or knew who had caused Travis harm), if they knew where Travis’s body was buried, and if they told the truth about seeing a UFO. The men all denied harming Travis (or knowing who had harmed him), denied knowing where his body was, and insisted they had indeed seen a UFO.
Excepting Dallis (who had not completed his exam, thus rendering it invalid), Gilson concluded that all the men were truthful, and the exam results were conclusive. Clark quotes from Gilson’s official report: "These polygraph examinations prove that these five men did see some object they believed to be a UFO, and that Travis Walton was not injured or murdered by any of these men on that Wednesday". If the UFO was hoaxed, Gilson thought, “five of these men had no prior knowledge of a hoax”. (Clark, 633)
Dallis later admitted that he'd concealed a criminal record to obtain his job with Rogers, and fear of this lie being exposed was why he'd walked out of the polygraph exam.
Following the polygraph tests, Sheriff Gillespie announced that he accepted the UFO story, saying "There’s no doubt they’re telling the truth." (Clark, 633)
Flake was unpersuaded; he once appeared at Kellett’s home with a television camera crew, hoping to discover Travis hiding there.

I just read further down the Wiki page and see the reference to McCarthy. (It's late here and past my bedtime:rolleyes:) Yes, I remember the controversy about that one. but what about the ones he passed? That convinced the Sheriff?
 
McCarthy, the polygraph examiner, insists Travis both failed the polygraph and tried to cheat. This was initially suppressed by APRO, and that would later help to fracture APRO and give birth to MUFON. But if you want to believe a guy who would steal your payroll cheque and forge his name on it to cash it, go ahead.

I have done some research about this..The National Enquirer newspaper had hired this McCarthy to do the test that Travis eventually failed.

National Enquirer (tabloid newspaper) had been offering a prize fund of 100,000 dollars, for a number of months, to anyone that can prove the existence of Aliens and UFO's.. So this McCarthy person was hired by the Enquirer, to me, he was no way neutral from the very start. A good review on what happened can be found online. I will post below soon.

Travis, "I was stupid and foolish when I was a younger man*... Well he an expunged record for Burglary not sure were you got the Payroll stuff from. Have you more information on that?
Philip Klass brought up the Burglary charge in his dismissal of Travis, but twisted from what I read. He never mentioned that the conviction was later removed.

The Travis Walton UFO Abduction Case Source. Geoff Price

I had to skip large chunks of the skip text just about hope this information is helpful.

Besieged by media, Walton's brother Duane reportedly tried to discreetly provide Travis with medical and scientific attention. The Walton brothers would eventually permit the case to be handled by the UFO investigative organization APRO, led by Jim Lorenzon. This resulted in an exclusive relationship with the National Enquirer, which was seeking the "scoop" on the Walton abduction and helping to bankroll APRO's investigation. The Enquirer, advised by Dr. James Harder of the University of California at Berkeley, arranged for psychological examinations and a polygraph test for Travis. The Enquirer would eventually run a large feature, and APRO touted the case as one of the most important events in UFO history.

Lie Detection Evidence
A total of thirteen polygraph examinations would ultimately be administered in conjunction with the case, a prodigious one as far as the use of polygraph evidence is concerned. A total of nine individuals were tested, including the seven primary participants as well as Walton's mother and brother. Eleven of the tests were passed, one (the original Dalis test) was inconclusive, and one -- the first test of the primary actor Walton -- was failed.

In evaluating this polygraph evidence, it is important to back up and consider the validity of lie detection tests in general. Do they work at all? In the domain of applied psychology, lie detection is referred to as the psychophysical detection of deception (PDD). The most common PDD technique is the polygraph, a general term describing tests which measure and correlate a variety of physiological activities (sweat and gland, cardiovascular, respiratory activity) using analog ("conventional") or computerized instruments.

The polygraph has always been a controversial topic, and much of the public -- and many introductory textbooks in psychology courses -- treat the matter with considerable skepticism. However, the more strident criticisms of the polygraph were spurred by inadequate earlier techniques, long since soundly rejected by academic scrutiny. Contemporary studies have found moderate but significant validity in the most common of modern techniques, the "Control Question Test" (CQT).

A recent article in the Journal of Credibility Assessment and Witness Psychology reviews the empirical and review literature concerning CQT, and concludes that, "when the ecologically valid laboratory studies and the high quality field studies are considered, both indicate high validity for the CQT

The Fifth Circuit of the U.S. Court of Appeals, in its decision in the U.S. vs. Posado in 1995, overturning "per se" exclusion of polygraph evidence, gave the following overview of the state of the evidence for polygraph:

"There can be no doubt that tremendous advances have been made in polygraph instrumentation and technique in the years since Frye. The test at issue in Frye measured only changes in the subject's systolic blood pressure in response to test questions. ... Modern instrumentation detects changes in the subject's blood pressure, pulse, thoracic and abdominal respiration, and galvanic skin response. Current research indicates that, when given under controlled conditions, the polygraph technique accurately predicts truth or deception between seventy and ninety percent of the time. Remaining controversy about test accuracy is almost unanimously attributed to variations in the integrity of the testing environment and the qualifications of the examiner. ... Further, there is good indication that polygraph technique and the requirements for professional polygraphists are becoming progressively more standardized. In addition, polygraph technique has been and continues to be subjected to extensive study and publication. Finally, polygraph is now so widely used by employers and government agencies alike."

And according to another court opinion:

"The predominant format employed in the field of polygraphy is the 'control question' technique ... There is no dispute in this case that the 'probable lie' version of the control question technique, when properly employed, is a highly accurate method for detecting deception and possesses the type of scientific validity that satisfies the reliability prong of Rule 702. Through numerous field and laboratory studies, researchers have determined that polygraph examinations using this technique produce results that have an accuracy rate of approximately ninety percent. ...

"The most thorough treatment of polygraph admissibility issues can be found in two district court opinions from Arizona and New Mexico [Galbreth and Crumby] ... both courts found that polygraph theory and technique had been tested by the scientific method and repeatedly validated in field and laboratory studies, subjected to stringent peer review and extensive publication, shown to have a remarkably low error rate when properly applied by a skilled polygrapher, enjoyed substantial acceptance within the scientific community, and was widely used within government and industry." [2]

Significant, and probably appropriate, obstacles remain before polygraph evidence finds a widespread and well-defined place in the courtroom, most notably with respect to the required standardization of examiner training, and in the ratification of techniques that are demonstrated proof against any physical and mental "countermeasures" that may be attempted by fraudulent claimants. However, a picture of significant validity and progress emerges.

It appears that there is sufficient evidence of the validity of polygraph testing to justify its careful use as one form of supporting evidence in the evaluation of UFO and other "extraordinary" claims. Polygraph results have the possibility of being most effective when used in multiple witness situations, where test error can be minimized across multiple subjects, and the possibility of "gross hoax" (i.e. the probability that the witnesses as a whole are lying about an event) can be rejected to a potentially high degree of confidence.

However, the responsible use and evaluation of lie detection evidence requires a careful consideration of which kinds of tests are well-grounded in scientific validity and which are not.

Overview of the Walton Polygraph Evidence
The initial tests of the six witnesses, performed by Cy Gilson while Walton was still missing, were CQT-format examinations. The questions he asked primarily addressed the possibility of some non-extraordinary foul play at work, but pointedly questioned the witnesses regarding the veracity of the reported UFO event. As mentioned previously, five of the six passed, with the one inconclusive result.

In the next test to be performed, a private investigator named John McCarthy was hired to test Walton relatively soon after his reappearance. McCarthy ruled Walton deceptive, and the test results were regrettably suppressed by APRO and the National Enquirer. (This test will be discussed in detail below.)

A follow-up examination of Walton by George Pfeifer ruled Walton truthful. After allegations aired by critics, Walton's mother and brother also took and passed polygraph tests administered by Pfeifer.

Twenty years later, in 1993, Cy Gilson retested key participants Travis Walton, (foreman and Walton friend) Mike Rogers, and Allen Dalis (the original "inconclusive" result), using a state-of-the-art computer-scored CQT methodology. All three passed.

The significance of the unanimous passing of competently administered CQT examinations by all six witnesses is considerable. Assuming independent tests, the odds of gross hoax (all participants lying about the UFO encounter) is less than one-tenth of a percent using the reasonably conservative figure of 70% for test accuracy, and on the order of one in a million using the 90% figure suggested by field tests. In short, relatively strong evidence that some kind of real event took place. On the basis of such evidence, APRO praised the case as one of the most important in history.

The Debunker Strikes Back
Media attention attracted both supporters and critics of the UFO phenomenon. One of the most well-known UFO skeptics, Phil Klass, became deeply involved in the case, and vociferously denounced it as a hoax.

But Klass frequently pushed the evidence well past where it was willing to naturally bend. For example, in his discussion of the Sylvanus interview, which took place at the search site and involved both Duane and Mike Rogers, Klass wrote of Rogers (underlined, and in all caps): "BUT AT NO TIME DURING THE HOUR-LONG INTERVIEW DID ROGERS EXPRESS THE SLIGHTEST CONCERN OVER WHETHER TRAVIS MIGHT HAVE BEEN INJURED OR KILLED".

The actual tape includes such comments as these from Rogers: [Recalling event:] "...we're going to have to go back. I agreed, you know, we couldn't leave him over there if he was hurt, which he certainly looked to me like he received some kind of [pause] something, some kind of injury, I don't know if it just stunned him or hurt him. Since we haven't found him we don't know but [big sigh, pause]..." And: "...no tracks, no pieces of clothing, no blood, no nothing. I mean there was no trace of it, and there was no trace of him. Some of the guys started crying; I remember I started crying..."

Klass aggressively tried to characterize Walton as a "known" "UFO freak", while Walton denied any unusual interest in the subject prior to his abduction. For example, Klass wrote in his June 1976 paper: "...I asked [Dr. Kandell] whether Travis or Duane had indicated any previous interest in UFOs during his November 11 discussions and examination. Dr. Kandell replied: 'They admitted to that freely, that he [Travis] was a 'UFO freak', so to speak ... He had made remarks that if he ever saw one, he'd like to go aboard.'"

Walton was eventually able to obtain and present Klass' original transcripts of the conversation, which presents a different picture than that suggested by Klass' cut and paste quotation: Kandell: They admitted to that freely, that he was, you know, a "UFO freak", so to speak. He's interested in it. Klass: Which one? Kandell: Travis. He had made remarks before that if he ever saw one, he'd like to go aboard, this and that. So, yes, that was mentioned. That was out. Klass: When was that? Was that when you and Dr. Saults were there or when more of the people were there? Kandell: No, that was, I think, subsequently, it came out. I don't know whether it was that Friday night, or it could have been that I, that it was in the newspapers, that somebody else might have mentioned it. Klass: But you heard it from their own lips? Kandell: I think so. I think so. I can't be 100-percent positive. But if I didn't, it was discussed. They didn't deny that. That wasn't denied. Continuing to pound out a negative characterization of key participants, Klass writes in "UFOs: The Public Deceived":

"Clearly Rogers feared that at least one member of his crew would fail [a follow-up polygraph] test, regardless of who was accepted as the examiner. [Investigator Bill] Barry's book quotes Rogers as saying, "[Witness] Steve [Pierce] told me and Travis that he had been offered ten thousand dollars just to sign a denial. He said he was thinking about it... So I told him, 'Then you'll spend the money alone, and you'll be bruised.'" The latter suggests that Rogers was threatening Pierce with physical harm if he recanted."

Klass' presentation suggests a hoax organized by Rogers and Walton and held together with raw physical threats (although the reader is left with some confusion as to why Rogers would be admitting this to investigators.) But again, this citation appears in a rather different light when contrasted with the original passage from which Klass is quoting (from Barry's book:)

"According to Mike Rogers, 'Steve told me and Travis that he had been offered ten thousand dollars just to sign a denial. He said he was thinking about taking it. We asked him, 'Even though you know it happened, would you deny it just for the money?' He said maybe he would; he was thinking about it. So I told him, 'Then you'll spend the money alone, and you'll be bruised.'' "

Klass' creative use of ellipses artfully shifts the context of the comments. Klass also deceptively injects the term "recant" (with its connotation of a public confession of error), when clearly Pierce was talking about falsely denying the event in return for money.

(Bill Barry, whom Klass is quoting, offered a blistering review of Klass' investigative demeanor, for the record: "His method of dealing with their evidence was harsh, smug, superior, unfair, and sometimes worse. And when push came to shove, and evidence could not be impugned, he simply ignored it and omitted it from consideration.")

Klass eventually focused on his "forest contract theory" for hoax motive, wherein Walton and Rogers were staging the hoax as a way to get out of the forest service contract via an "act of God" provision.

Klass on the Polygraph Evidence
Klass attacked the original Gilson tests on the grounds of insufficient questioning regarding the UFO incident. He quoted Gilson as saying, "That one question does not make it a valid test as far as verifying the UFO incident."

This, however, contradicted Gilson's written word at the time. And in 1993, in preparation for retesting, Mike Rogers asked Gilson to state for the record whether his opinion of the original tests had changed. Gilson replied:

"Today, in 1993, I am still of the same opinion that they were valid examinations and the results were conclusive on the five. Even though there was only one question asked that related to the UFO sighting, it was a valid question and the results proved none of you were lying when stating you saw an object that you believe was a UFO. ... I hope this letter will satisfy you, and anyone else, that my beliefs in the results of those examinations, are the same today as they were in 1975."

But however lackluster Klass' case on all these counts, the crown jewel of his campaign was clearly the discovery of the initial, failed polygraph test of Travis Walton. On a tip, Klass tracked down John McCarthy and found himself in the possession of a genuine scoop: a polygraph test failed by the primary actor Walton and suppressed by the ufological group APRO and the National Enquirer.

APRO's advisors, such as Dr. James Harder, had felt the test was inconclusive as a result of Walton's emotional instability. The Enquirer accepted this and ordered the followup Pfeifer test. Yet such excuses would ring hollow to the ears of many observers.

In fact, Klass' discovery of the McCarthy test turned many ufologists and much of the public against the case. For example as recently as 1997, popular ufologist Kevin Randle panned the case as a hoax in his book The Randle Report, arguing that, due to its proximity to the original events, the McCarthy test "spoke volumes" about Walton's truthfulness.

The test would also achieve a sort of urban legend status among UFO skeptics. For example, Anson Kennedy of Georgia Skeptics was quoted on Robert Sheaffer's web site as saying:

"But the real 'bombshell,' as Klass describes it in his book, was the fact that Walton had failed an earlier polygraph examination miserably and this information had been suppressed by APRO, which had been proclaiming the Walton case 'one of the most important and intriguing in the history of the UFO phenomena.' This test was administered by John McCarthy, who with twenty years of experience was one of the most respected examiners in the state of Arizona. His conclusion: 'Gross deception.' Proponents of the Walton case never mention this examination."

The story, including the embellishments (McCarthy "with twenty years of experience was one of the most respected examiners in the state of Arizona") could be traced directly, of course, to Klass.

The McCarthy Test and Polygraph Methodology
Unfortunately, neither Klass nor modern critics such as Randle seriously address the issue of polygraph methodology. John McCarthy in 1975 was still using what is called the "Relevant/Irrelevant" (RI) examination format. Test transcripts were forwarded by Allan Hendry of CUFOS to Dr. David Raskin, a published scholar and recognized authority on the polygraph, who described the technique as "unacceptable" and "thirty years out of date".

A cursory examination of the literature readily confirms the degree to which the RI technique is held in low regard. The aforementioned academic review of polygraphy states brusquely, "Of the three techniques discussed in this paper, there seems to be general agreement in the scientific literature that the Relevant-Irrelevant Test lacks validity".

Crucial is the issue of why, specifically, RI tests have been found to be unreliable. The same court review that praises CQT as "a highly accurate method for detecting deception" explains that:

"The relevant/irrelevant technique has been determined by researchers to produce an unacceptably high number of 'false positive' errors (because even an innocent subject will recognize the significance of the relevant question and may react to it) and has generally been discarded in favor of other techniques that have been shown to have a higher degree of reliability." [3]

And the conditions of the McCarthy test are not particularly ideal. Descriptions of Walton's extreme agitation are universally available, even from cynical skeptics such as Enquirer reporter Jeff Wells: "Our first sight of the kid was at dinner in the hotel dining room that night. It was a shock. He sat there mute, pale, twitching like a cornered animal. He was either a brilliant actor or he was in serious funk about something... The kid was a wreck and it was all the psychiatrist could do to get him ready for the lie-detector expert we had lined up."

Additionally, the Walton brothers experienced McCarthy as hostile and disbelieving, which (if true) can also increase the risk of false positive error. On tape, McCarthy interrupts Walton 28 times, for example berating him when he is clearly confused about dates, snapping "Where have you been, in a vacuum?"






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
McCarthy, the polygraph examiner, insists Travis both failed the polygraph and tried to cheat. This was initially suppressed by APRO, and that would later help to fracture APRO and give birth to MUFON. But if you want to believe a guy who would steal your payroll cheque and forge his name on it to cash it, go ahead.

Polygraph tests are controversial and, at the end of the day, peripheral if not completely irrelevant to the case.

I travelled to Snowflake last year to visit Travis, as I wanted to meet him for myself. I found him to be 100% genuine, as does everyone else who has ever taken the trouble to seek him out and engage him face-to-face. He is quiet, pragmatic, grounded, not generally a believer in weird stuff, and neither he nor any of the other six first-hand witnesses have ever changed a single detail of their story in 35 years. The whole incident caused them a lot of stress, cost them some credibility back in the 70s and 80s; they had to endure a lot of unwelcome, bigoted and vindictive personal attacks from ignorant idealogues like Klass, and there was absolutely no positive pay-off of any kind. When he was "returned" after five days, Travis then discovered himself in the media spotlight (because he had been missing so long) which was the last thing he wanted.

After meeting Travis face to face and reviewing all aspects of the case which have stood up to attacks from the ignorant and debunkers, and endured disbelief and hostility for so many years, it seems to me to even suggest the case might be a hoax betrays little common sense or knowledge of the facts. The case was the real deal. In support of it there have been some anomalies in tree growth in the specific location where the UFO was encountered by the 7 loggers, not shared by any of the trees in the surrounding area, which are compatible with a high short burst of radioactivity. Anyone who has taken the trouble to investigate this case closely will realise that the only explanation which fits is that what the 7 percipients reported, is what actually happened. Nothing else makes sense.

---------- Post added at 01:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:01 AM ----------

Archie, sorry to digress, but have you or any abductee you know & trust tried to set up a quality video camera in your bedroom over a period of time to assess what actually happens? One always hears stories how the camera gets 'switched off', or how the abduction then occurs elsewhere, but all this seems too convenient. One also rarely hears about this very obvious countermeasure discussed at length and in detail in radio interviews. Drawing this back to Budd Hopkins, hasn't he tried this with some of his willing 'patients', and if so, what were the results? Thnx.

Long involved story Tom. The abductors have very advanced abilities in neural manipulation. I personally think if you want to get film of an event then precautions must include the following:

1. Multiple cameras must be placed covertly by agreement in secret by some third party, so the abductee does not know their location

2. Abductees must be continuously aware that suggestions may be placed in their minds that they sleep "in a different room" or location tonight, and somehow be aware of and resist these strong impulses

3. The cameras must be powered by some technology that does not involve batteries or electricity, as these are too easily interfered with by the abductors

4. Persistence over time - years even - is needed

5. This entire camera circus must accompany abductees wherever they go - i.e. on business trips, holidays or visits to friends or relatives - because otherwise they will be abducted when away from home; in these secondary locations, cameras must be installed by a party other than the abductee and kept from their knowledge


Is this easy to do? No.
 
I don't know how anyone could be so certain that a mere "story" could be "100% genuine" let alone that "everyone else" thinks the same thing, or that "nothing else" could make sense, especially when there seems to be some serious credibility issues involved. There is obviously some pretty intense "I Want To Believe" psychology going on there. But who knows? I wasn't there, I can't say anything for sure about any of it, and strange things can happen to anyone regardless of their lifestyle and background. Maybe this is one of those cases ... I just don't think it is very likely, and I definitlely think it has been highly sensationalized and promoted by booksellers and moviemakers.

You can, of course, choose to believe whatever you like.

Travis basically couldn't care less. He knows the encounter happened exactly as reported back in 1975, as do the other six witnesses. These guys don't even keep in contact with each other, for decades now, yet none has ever changed one single detail of their story. They all report the same event, in the same detail, and in the past 35 years have just got on with their lives. None of them have ever tried to convince anyone about this event: they would all prefer it had never happened. None ever made any money out of it and, in common with most witnesses to this type of incident, all they ever got was ridicule and insults. Whether you recognise them to be honest or try to represent them all as liars - which is the only possible alternative - will never make any difference.

Incidentally have you ever even bothered to meet or interview any of the seven witnesses? Reason I ask is, most debunkers (like Klass) never bother to even do that - which of course, renders their opinion as virtually worthless.
 
The following link is a short synopsis. You can find the details of the poloygraph testing, fraud conviction and Ground Saucer Watch investigation by searching out those specific topics on other websites.

Wow. You base your case on the National Enquirer? They paid John McCarthy to test Walton. No alarm bells ringing for you there? No hint of bias?

From Wiki:

"The Enquirer openly acknowledges that it will pay sources for tips, a practice generally frowned upon by the mainstream press. At least one prominent story, connected to the Elizabeth Smart case, had to be retracted after it was revealed that two informants had fabricated false information. The informants had been paid a large sum for the story."

John McCarthy doesn't get off scot free as Kieran has discovered in his previous post:

"John McCarthy in 1975 was still using what is called the "Relevant/Irrelevant" (RI) examination format. Test transcripts were forwarded by Allan Hendry of CUFOS to Dr. David Raskin, a published scholar and recognized authority on the polygraph, who described the technique as "unacceptable" and "thirty years out of date"."-Geoff Price

And after the McCarthy test:

"A follow-up examination of Walton by George Pfeifer ruled Walton truthful. After allegations aired by critics, Walton's mother and brother also took and passed polygraph tests administered by Pfeifer."


So we have Travis and his crew passing multiple polygraphs. If you want to believe that polygraphs are a useful tool in gaining any credibility then one would say Travis et al had passed. Polygraphs however are controversial to say the least, and pinning ones hopes as to whether the passing or not passing of them constitutes truth or lies is purely up for debate. In this case it seems that Klass, McCarthy and the Enquirer have the much weaker of the cases.
 
The best treatment I've read for the Walton case is Jerome Clark's entry in his UFO Encyclopedia series. It's too bad more people don't have access to that. He goes over all of the skeptical arguments one at a time and dismantles many of them, especially the allegations by Ground Saucer Watch. I've also read a chapter on the case in Kevin Randle's book, The Randle Report: UFOs in the 90s, where he presents a skeptical argument. Having went over both of these (And each are much better and more detailed than the stuff you'll find online) I am more swayed by Clark's argument. That's not to say a skeptical argument can't win me over. I went through a similar routine with the Gulf Breeze case. Clark presented a favorable treatment of it and Randle's version was skeptical. In that instance I found Randle's argument to be the more sound.
 
Can I just say that Travis Walton is a liar and he just wanted to gain some notoriety? That's pretty much what i think at this point.
Until I see an actual alien abduction that is completely documented with physical evidence, I'll continue to think that abductees have either confused a pshycological episode, or they are flat out lying.
This week's episode of The Skeptics Guide to The Universe pretty much dismantled that case of the guy that had sex with the blonde amazon lady from outer space. It's a pretty elaborate way of getting out of cheating on your wife.
 
the blonde amazon lady from outer space.


Hmmmmm, blonde amazon from outer space :)

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Whooo hooo!
 
Can I just say that Travis Walton is a liar and he just wanted to gain some notoriety? That's pretty much what i think at this point.
Until I see an actual alien abduction that is completely documented with physical evidence, I'll continue to think that abductees have either confused a pshycological episode, or they are flat out lying.
This week's episode of The Skeptics Guide to The Universe pretty much dismantled that case of the guy that had sex with the blonde amazon lady from outer space. It's a pretty elaborate way of getting out of cheating on your wife.

No, you can't say that.

By the blonde woman from outer space thing I assume you mean the Khoury case? Let's guess, they said something like, "It's not true because I say it isn't" and that meant case-closed to you.
 
No, you can't say that.

By the blonde woman from outer space thing I assume you mean the Khoury case? Let's guess, they said something like, "It's not true because I say it isn't" and that meant case-closed to you.

Why can't I think that Walton is a liar? There's no way he can prove what he says he saw and that what happened actualy happened. Same thing goes for the Alagash people.
About the Khoury case, they brought up the point that this guys' proof of an alien was the analysis of the hair that proved it was HUMAN DNA - rare human DNA, but human DNA none the less. If it was alien DNA it would have been alien, no? I just think that there's more to this than saying, yeah, it was an alien visitor. He saw them when he was in bed. Can you say hypnagogic state? Wikimedia Error

That is a far more likely explanation than any kind of alien abduction.
 
Can I just say that Travis Walton is a liar and he just wanted to gain some notoriety? That's pretty much what i think at this point.
Until I see an actual alien abduction that is completely documented with physical evidence, I'll continue to think that abductees have either confused a pshycological episode, or they are flat out lying.
This week's episode of The Skeptics Guide to The Universe pretty much dismantled that case of the guy that had sex with the blonde amazon lady from outer space. It's a pretty elaborate way of getting out of cheating on your wife.

I had a listen. I was expecting to hear information that was both provocative and dramatic. I was of course naive! The whole experience was a classic example of a Hypnonpompic hallucination according to one host.. The show did not dismantle this case Angel, opinions were given. Google the meaning of the word "Opinion" and the word "Prove" This case has physical evidence, what are you on about!
 
I had a listen. I was expecting to hear information that was both provocative and dramatic. I was of course naive! The whole experience was a classic example of a Hypnonpompic hallucination according to one host.. The show did not dismantle this case Angel, opinions were given. Google the meaning of the word "Opinion" and the word "Prove" This case has physical evidence, what are you on about!

They dismantled it in the sense that they showed how silly it is to automatically think that it has anything to do with aliens. If you want to continue to think that a giant blond alien banged this guy, you may. I think it's absolutely ridiculous. That is my OPINION.
 
They dismantled it in the sense that they showed how silly it is to automatically think that it has anything to do with aliens. If you want to continue to think that a gint blonde alien banged this guy, you may. I think it's absolutely ridiculous. That is my OPINION.

I heard the show, opinions were given, your opinion exactly.
 
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