Burning Books

[Ron Collins]

Which is code for: They're scary so we should kiss their asses. Lol, I love the internet, never get to hear this shit at home.

No, that is not what he is saying. This was not an attack from all of Islam. It was as much a geo-political statement as a religious one. In fact probably more. The cultural aspect is to show that we understand the difference between fundamentalist militant whack jobs and regular Muslim people.

 

[Sean Elifritz]

No, that is not what he is saying. This was not an attack from all of Islam. It was as much a geo-political statement as a religious one. In fact probably more. The cultural aspect is to show that we understand the difference between fundamentalist militant whack jobs and regular Muslim people.

Ha ha, do you believe for a minute that it's "moderate" Muslims that want to build that mosque in that location? C'mon, man. There is absolutely nothing normal about it. Whomever is behind it has got to be a radical, twisted bastard to want to put it there.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Ha ha, do you believe for a minute that it's "moderate" Muslims that want to build that mosque in that location? C'mon, man. There is absolutely nothing normal about it. Whomever is behind it has got to be a radical, twisted bastard to want to put it there.

I honestly can't tell if you're joking. I hope that you are.

 

[trainedobserver]

funny we can have laws against hate crimes and that isn't covered, somehow...

How is burning a book you own on your own property a "hate crime?" What someone else's beliefs about the object or what it represents is entirely irrelevant. I think the best you could do would be to get him for inciting a riot through the public spectacle. The only reason anyone is paying attention to this guy is because of the reaction to his "plan." Remember, all this guy has done is talk so far. If the reaction weren't so incredibly disproportionate to the actual act it wouldn't be news and no one would give the guy the time of day. I think the whole hubbub is a symptom of a larger problem with religion/ ideology and their accepted role and status in society.

Burning things in effigy is a old political practice meant to unify one group while enraging another. Its just a mind thing. Threatening to burn other people's property and riot in reaction to it is completely irrational and should be completely intolerable. The guy in Florida is moot at this point. So many other rational, reasonable individuals like that nut-job from Westboro Baptist Church and some other guy in Tennessee have decided to pick up the torch if you will.

To be clear, I find the whole affair repugnant in the utmost. I do however understand that anyone has the right to burn his own book or other property, if he cares to or build on land he legally owns as long he complies with building codes. What anyone, including myself, "believes" or "gets upset" about doesn't enter into it legally. We are nation governed by laws not of irrational, emotional, knee-jerk reactions of the moment. One of the repercussions of that is that sometimes even if something doesn't appear to be appropriate and common sense would seem to dictate another path, people still have the right to behave stupidly within in the law.

 

[Sean Elifritz]

I honestly can't tell if you're joking. I hope that you are.

Of course I'm not kidding! Are you flippin' kidding me? Look at all the real-estate in America. There's a billion places that center could go. If you're trying to pretend that the location isn't politically motivated you're breathtakingly naive, astonishingly dense, or living in a fairy tale.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

It is motivated by trying to create cultural unity. What Ron said

The cultural aspect is to show that we understand the difference between fundamentalist militant whack jobs and regular Muslim people

makes a lot of sense.

 

[Sean Elifritz]

It is motivated by trying to create cultural unity. What Ron said makes a lot of sense.

Cultural unity, eh? If that place actually gets built I suspect that there might end up being more fistfights outside that place than the roughest biker bar in the country. Seriously, it takes giant kahunas to put it in that location and they wouldn't be willing to take all that potential flak if it were not motivated by powerful ideology. I know that you get this. You have the ability to spell so you have to. You're just feigning ignorance to back up your own political ideology.

 

[trainedobserver]

The cultural aspect is to show that we understand the difference between fundamentalist militant whack jobs and regular Muslim people.

I imagine that regular Muslim people wouldn't give a hoot, or if they did they would respect this fellows legal rights, and go about their day with nothing more than a civil protest. Irrational demands, violence or the threats of violence would certainly be the purview of fundamentalist militants. I wouldn't have believed so much death and destruction would result from the cartoon affair, however the fundamentalist militants manged to get people killed over that. I'm thinking its past time the regular Muslim people did something about the fundamentalist militants tainting their names. Denunciations and condemnations are in order. Clerics promoting violence need to disposed ,etc., etc., etc.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Cultural unity, eh? If that place actually gets built I suspect that there might end up being more fistfights outside that place than the roughest biker bar in the country. Seriously, it takes giant kahunas to put it in that location and they wouldn't be willing to take all that potential flak if it were not motivated by powerful ideology. I know that you get this. You have the ability to spell so you have to. You're just feigning ignorance to back up your own political ideology.

You're associating an entire culture with the act of a militant terrorist group that uses religion as a reason to kill people. How is that fair? That's what I don't get.

 

[trainedobserver]

Oh ...where are the aliens when you need them? If Reagan's "threat from out there" would show up maybe we'd forget about the differences between what we "believe" and deal with reality for a change. Or maybe not. They'd be worshiped by some and seen as demons by others. It'd just still be total chaos. What was I thinking?

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Something awesome: The ad on this page for me is Muslim Matrimony.

 

[Sean Elifritz]

You're associating an entire culture with the act of a militant terrorist group that uses religion as a reason to kill people. How is that fair? That's what I don't get.

Angelo, you keep pretending to not get the point but you have to because you're not fucking stupid! I have no problem with cultural unity, I haven't assaulted nor even said anything nasty to any Muslim or Arab since 9/11 happened. And most other Americans haven't either. But damn it, putting that mosque in that location is a HIGHLY provocative thing to do. It's like taunting. There is absolutely no doubt that if it gets built it will be the most dangerous mosque for any Muslim to be at in the United States. That's common sense. Of course they know that! Yet they want to do it anyway. The very fact that they are looking to build it there despite the risks (And I just saw a news report a few days ago where several moderate, normal Muslims were speaking out against it. They know it's like pouring salt on an open wound. Radical Muslims are the ones wanting it there) just goes to show the strong ideology that must be driving it. It will not promote cultural unity, it will fan the flames.

 

[stphrz]

You're going at it from a completely different perspective than I am. I just don't see what the big deal is. If the burning of a stack of Bibles isn't newsworthy or worth throwing a bitch about than neither should a pile of Qur'ans. Why does one garner no attention and the other one does? Sure, I know what the answer is: Because violence won't erupt over burned Bibles but it may over burned Qur'ans. That's entirely the wrong reason to place more emphasis on it. Special attention like that actually rewards the violent behavior. The people of this country are getting so ridiculously PC, yuppified, and polarized that it's approaching hilarity. We've become a nation that can't stop arguing over dumb shit (I hate you because you watch Fox News! Well, I hate you because you watch MSNBC!) yet we'll tie ourselves in knots to kiss the asses of people that want to kill us. Surreal.

Who are these "people that want to kill" and who is "us?"

Angelo, you keep pretending to not get the point but you have to because you're not fucking stupid! I have no problem with cultural unity, I haven't assaulted nor even said anything nasty to any Muslim or Arab since 9/11 happened. And most other Americans haven't either. But damn it, putting that mosque in that location is a HIGHLY provocative thing to do. It's like taunting. There is absolutely no doubt that if it gets built it will be the most dangerous mosque for any Muslim to be at in the United States. That's common sense. Of course they know that! Yet they want to do it anyway. The very fact that they are looking to build it there despite the risks (And I just saw a news report a few days ago where several moderate, normal Muslims were speaking out against it. They know it's like pouring salt on an open wound. Radical Muslims are the ones wanting it there) just goes to show the strong ideology that must be driving it. It will not promote cultural unity, it will fan the flames.

And publiicly announcing the burning of the Koran in the name of anti-terrorism isn't a highly provocative thing to do? It's not pouring salt on an open wound? It will not fan the flames instead of promoting cultural unity? If you don't see what the big deal is about burning a book, can you understand why I might not see why building a mosque/cultural center a couple blocks from the WTC site is a big deal? Especially since the motive for the book burning is absolutely to insult and degrade while the building of the mosque requires you to project your own prejudices on it for it to convey the same.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Who are these "people that want to kill" and who is "us?"

It's the unfortunate us vs. them mentality that is the basis for the opposition of the Islamic cultural center at Ground Zero.

 

[Sean Elifritz]

It's the unfortunate us vs. them mentality that is the basis for the opposition of the Islamic cultural center at Ground Zero.

Lol, whatever. This is like talking to a wall. I know damned well that if a lion ate your mother you wouldn't want a lion farm built right next door to you, even if it didn't harbor the particular lion that choked her down. This shit is common sense and I refuse to believe that you don't get it.

---------- Post added at 03:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:02 PM ----------

Who are these "people that want to kill" and who is "us?"

Lol, that reminded me of a debate I got into with my English professor and the rest of the class when I was going to college. The subject was NAMBLA and whether or not they should be permitted to speak on campus. One of the guys in the back of the room said something like, "If it wasn't called molestation than it wouldn't be molestation." Your comment was very similar so thanks for the memory.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Lol, whatever. This is like talking to a wall. I know damned well that if a lion ate your mother you wouldn't want a lion farm built right next door to you, even if it didn't harbor the particular lion that choked her down. This shit is common sense and I refuse to believe that you don't get it.

Perhaps it is common sense to you, but it isn't to me. Common sense to me is not blaming an entire belief system for the acts of a terrorist group that perverts those beliefs to fit into their twisted view of the world.
Since you're using ridiculous analogies, let me use one as well. McDonald's can be considered a symbol of the American way - work hard and build an enormous business. There's a McDonald's in Hiroshima. An American institution in a city destroyed by that very culture!!! Terrible analogy, but it seems to fit the way your are looking at this.

 

[trainedobserver]

You know, I've often wondered what the reaction to the public burning of "Behold a Pale Horse" would be.

 

[stphrz]

Lol, that reminded me of a debate I got into with my English professor and the rest of the class when I was going to college. The subject was NAMBLA and whether or not they should be permitted to speak on campus. One of the guys in the back of the room said something like, "If it wasn't called molestation than it wouldn't be molestation." Your comment was very similar so thanks for the memory.

Just letting you know you replied to my post before I edited it so you have a chance to respond to my addtional comments.

 

[Sean Elifritz]

Perhaps it is common sense to you, but it isn't to me. Common sense to me is not blaming an entire belief system for the acts of a terrorist group that perverts those beliefs to fit into their twisted view of the world.
Since you're using ridiculous analogies, let me use one as well. McDonald's can be considered a symbol of the American way - work hard and build an enormous business. There's a McDonald's in Hiroshima. An American institution in a city destroyed by that very culture!!! Terrible analogy, but it seems to fit the way your are looking at this.

Whatever Angelo, go ahead and turn it into some intellectual pie-in-the-sky wish fulfillment and ignore reality if you want to. People are not the emotionless computers you're hoping they are. It doesn't matter if the mosque is populated by Al-Qaeda or not. That it is a mosque at Ground Zero will be enough to work over peoples' emotions, especially relatives of victims of 9/11. If I were to kill your sister (If you have one) and my brother (I don't have one) were to move in next door to you and was the nicest guy in the world I know it would make you uneasy. That wouldn't make you a brainless caveman, it's just typical human behavior. Ignoring the human condition in favor of whimsical "I wish people were like this instead" imaginings doesn't put you on some majestic intellectual high-ground. It's juvenile dreaming and totally inconsistent with the real world.

 

[stphrz]

Whatever Angelo, go ahead and turn it into some intellectual pie-in-the-sky wish fulfillment and ignore reality if you want to. People are not the emotionless computers you're hoping they are. It doesn't matter if the mosque is populated by Al-Qaeda or not. That it is a mosque at Ground Zero will be enough to work over peoples' emotions, especially relatives of victims of 9/11. If I were to kill your sister (If you have one) and my brother (I don't have one) were to move in next door to you and was the nicest guy in the world I know it would make you uneasy. That wouldn't make you a brainless caveman, it's just typical human behavior. Ignoring the human condition in favor of whimsical "I wish people were like this instead" imaginings doesn't put you on some majestic intellectual high-ground. It's juvenile dreaming and totally inconsistent with the real world.

You haven't thought you position through very well. It's the seemingly complete inability to question why certain things make us uneasy is the reason the world is in the state that it's in. Just how much of this is human behaviour and just how much is human habit. Bad habit.

Racisim is horrible, yet it is a part of of typical human behaviour. Does that mean it should be accepted as just the way things are? Our impulse to kill our own kind is also part of the human condition. Again should we accept is as just a part of our nature and not work to change?

Was MLK an emotionless computer? Was Ghandi an emotionless computer? Are all the people who speak out against the horrible side of humanity and call for us to think deeply about the reasons we hold the veiws we hold and do the things we do emotionless computers?

Why do you think that hope of becoming better than we are is a negation of reality?