Butch Witkowski/ Human Mutilations.

[Ezechiel]

The soft-tissue organs that are generally excised are the youngest and fastest regenerating tissues in the body. They are also the organs and areas of the body where humans most often develop cancers. I think this fact may be important, but I've seen little mention of these facts by other investigators.

The fact that these carcasses are returned indicates to me that whomever is doing this knows that if they don't return the carcass, it will be a reported as stolen head of livestock and be therefore, a crime. By returning them, they nullify most official law enforcement involvement because a crime hasn't officially been committed. Plus, very few ranchers will spend money to determine cause of death as they have already lost their investment— why throw good money after bad? Its a self-nullifying mystery that is ingenious in its fiendishness. It really sucks for the victimized rancher. Maybe Oprah should do a show on this uhh (NOT!)

From a human point of view, your explanation for 'carcass return' is very pertinent and would be normal behavior if the perpetrator wanted continue his soft tissue extraction activities and minimize police interference.

IMHO, what really needs to be confirmed here is whether the 'laser' cuts and tissue extractions can be duplicated with current known technologies. If these actions can't be duplicated, it then becomes normal to start speculating about external intent.

Is this still a mystery or has the operation been duplicated in some lab somewhere ?

 

[fahrusha]

This was a very interesting episode. Mr. Witkowski seemed very personable and down to Earth. I was astounded by the number of missing persons that there apparently are! I wonder if there are statistics available that would explain the demographics on that. Perhaps it would be enlightening.
About the Todd Sees case: I first heard of it at the Atlantic UFO Conference in 2008 which took place in Atlantic City. Peter Davenport of NUFORC gave a lot of information he had gleaned about what happened to the unfortunate Mr. Sees. Frightening end to come to, no matter who was the perpetrator.
In terms of the cattle mutilations, I find it very hard to form an opinion, because there is such disagreement on the facts and evidence. Probably as Christopher O'Brien stated, there is more than one source. I don't know of any Satanic ritual that would require just those body parts (but I am not a Satanic ritual expert). Practice of ritual magic would vary from place to place, but often requires blood. Helicopters could be black-ops government guys checking out what happened. A non-human returning the body to its original location could have a meaning to them which is unfathomable to us.
Might be interesting to have a panel show in which persons who have researched human and cattle mutilations and come to different conclusions speak about what those conclusions are. It would be best if the participants could argue their points diplomatically so we could all become more enlightened.

 

[Schuyler]

I tried to do a little research on missing persons and became very frustrated. The numbers reported are astronomical, but I suspect they are nowhere near real. My daughter goes missing. I report it. She's counted as a statistic. She shows up the next day hungry. I have not yet found a reliable statistic that shows how many people go missing and STAY missing, those who are flat out gone permanently. I fear we are being misled by statistics here. The country could not tolerate the number of missing persons being actually reported. Something is amiss here and I just haven't figured it out.

 

[Gareth]

I tried to do a little research on missing persons and became very frustrated. The numbers reported are astronomical, but I suspect they are nowhere near real. My daughter goes missing. I report it. She's counted as a statistic. She shows up the next day hungry. I have not yet found a reliable statistic that shows how many people go missing and STAY missing, those who are flat out gone permanently. I fear we are being misled by statistics here. The country could not tolerate the number of missing persons being actually reported. Something is amiss here and I just haven't figured it out.

I suspect that to get real numbers one would have to be affiliated with some sort of agency, and have 'access'.

 

[The Pair of Cats]

I suspect that to get real numbers one would have to be affiliated with some sort of agency, and have 'access'.

I tried to do a little research on missing persons and became very frustrated. The numbers reported are astronomical, but I suspect they are nowhere near real. My daughter goes missing. I report it. She's counted as a statistic. She shows up the next day hungry. I have not yet found a reliable statistic that shows how many people go missing and STAY missing, those who are flat out gone permanently. I fear we are being misled by statistics here. The country could not tolerate the number of missing persons being actually reported. Something is amiss here and I just haven't figured it out.

I suspect you are right about the ones who go missing and show up later. Does their statistic get revoked? Do their families bother to advise the relevant agencies? it would seem almost impossible to gather a reliable stat.

 

[Kevin Daly]

I've just had a further thought.
I'm not sure what to make of this issue, or whether there's anything truly anomalous at the bottom of it.

But one thing Butch said struck me - I'm pretty sure he mentioned a human mutilation in New Zealand in the '90s.
This is of interest to me since that's where I'm from and that's where I currently am.
More importantly, some of the usual explanations wouldn't apply in New Zealand, given for instance our lack of any large terrestrial predators and the fact that our armed forces wouldn't be able to afford the fuel to have black helicopters whizzing about.
So I'd be very interested if anyone has any information about this case.

On the other hand, w'eve got Keas (very intelligent, very inquisitive alpine parrots with beaks like bolt cutters, the demeanour of teenaged delinquents and an alleged taste for sheep liver).
Don't trust the little buggers

 

[NTS]

I tried looking here for missing persons info:

NCIC Missing Person and Unidentified Person Statistics for 2007

As you say, very frustrating. But it seems as though the vast majority reported turn up eventually. Of the ones who don't we may never have any idea what happened to them. When you consider a population (in the U.S.) of 300 million even very low probability occurrences could involve thousands of people.

Oddly enough I had a distant family member (in-law of an in-law) who disappeared. His car was found parked next to a river so it was assumed that he fell in and drowned, but his body was never found. His wife eventually had him declared dead (a very drawn-out process) so that she could at least move on with her life. A difficult thing to deal with under any circumstances.

 

[Schuyler]

Thanks for that link, NTS. I've been looking through the stats. It looks to me that in 2007, the number of entries into the system was 814,957 and the number of deletes from the system was 820,212. In other words, as we suspected, while the number of people reported missing is astronomical, the number of people deleted from the system indicates a net total of approximately minus 5,000 people in 2007. They found more than they entered. The total number of active entries in the system at any one time, covering all years starting from 1983 (when the system itself started) is approximately 105,000.

Juveniles are BY FAR the largest portion of entries with 626,636 entries and, more cancellations at 630,450, i.e.: For 2007 they found more kids than they entered. In terms of endangered adults you see a similar pattern with 94,090 reported and 95,200 canceled. The category of 'Involuntary' is 21,747 entered and 21,675 cleared. There's also a category for people with disabilities and people involved in a disaster (like we're seeing in Haiti right now.)

Notice the categories. "Endangered" or "Involuntary" indicates to me that the authorities have some reason to suspect foul play. Many juvenile abductions, for example, are custody battles, not to mention runaways. The disabled category to me means Alzheimer's, primarily.

We don't have full information about these statistics, so I'm not claiming complete knowledge of the process, but what I think we have here are missing persons statistics that vastly overstate the issue. And in 'abduction research' these statistics are misused to lead you to believe that millions of people worldwide are abducted and never seen again.

We are left with a handful of people we can not account for on a yearly basis and a near zero reason for invoking alien abductions as the cause. I'm not claiming it has never happened, but insofar as declaring an epidemic of alien abductions, I'm thinking that's total B.S.: Hyperbolic nonsense.

 

[NTS]

Agree, Schuyler. And I suspect that if bizarrely mutilated human bodies were found, far from being concealed the events would be national news in no time.

 

[Decker]

Agree, Schuyler. And I suspect that if bizarrely mutilated human bodies were found, far from being concealed the events would be national news in no time.

NTS, I am not sure I can agree with that. Having investigated homicides which were run of the mill (if you could say that about any homicide) someone that is shot, strangled, stabbed, etc. is one thing, but a body that has been mutilated similar to a cattle mute is something else. The authority's would and have suppressed evidence in the past for a lot of reasons. A fear of public panic is one that comes to my mind right away. IF, and remember I am saying if, a body is discovered mutilated in a way similar to a cattle or animal mutilation ... well this falls well outside of the norm. I remember when the "Green River Killer" was active in Washington State (and as an aside some of these murders were included in my original request via my detective buddy who filed my first NCIC request when I was starting my mutilation research) there were facts about some of these murders that were suppressed. Then my conversation with Phil Imbrogno comes to mind. When I spoke to Phil all those years ago and he turned me onto a couple of unexplained deaths that occurred during the Hudson Valley flap, he informed me that Federal Agents took away the investigation from the local cops.

If (and remember I am saying if) the case was strange enough and the Feds became involved, I have no doubt in my mind that they would suppress the information. Don't kid yourself, if they feel they have a "hot potato" on their hands, you will never hear a peep. For What It's Worth.

Decker
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[Kieran]

Well every country on this planet has citizens who are reported missing for a number of reasons. Some of those missing people are found through Interpol and other's turn up after a certain period of time and some people are still listed as missing. If non/humans have an agenda of abducting Humans and then killing them for parts of their anatomy. Then why is it" there is not more cases reported. Since it came up in the show. The bodies were returned as if they couldn't care less. I'm not sure my point is that incisive. But, would it not be reasonable to assume. Such actions would be repeated on a larger scale. If this was a non/human agenda. I guess we have to focus on the case's that are bizarre. And see, if there could be other reasons, for why they looked like they did. It's frightening, even to have this type of thoughts in your mind, be it true or not true. That an advanced race, advanced more than us in technology was murdering humans in such a manner for whatever purpose, and later dumping them with not care in the world. Scary.

 

[NTS]

OK, I'm not in law enforcement and have never been involved in a homicide investigation. And of course I've heard that the authorities may conceal certain details to aid in identifying potential suspects etc.

But (to use one of your examples) the Green River murders were matters of public record, indeed of wide publicity. The general facts were well known. It just seems to me that the same thing would be true of any strange or unusual death. Also, I do have a friend who used to be a homicide investigator. He told me that one thing the general public doesn't realize is the complexity of homicide investigations and the number of agencies involved. Not only the police, but the medical examiner's office, prosecutor, etc. And what about the victim's family? Can they all be counted on to shut up while their loved one's death is concealed? We aren't living in a dictatorship. All it takes is one relative filing a lawsuit or talking to a reporter, and the whole thing is blown wide open.

Call me skeptical.

 

[Decker]

But (to use one of your examples) the Green River murders were matters of public record, indeed of wide publicity. The general facts were well known. It just seems to me that the same thing would be true of any strange or unusual death. Also, I do have a friend who used to be a homicide investigator. He told me that one thing the general public doesn't realize is the complexity of homicide investigations and the number of agencies involved. Not only the police, but the medical examiner's office, prosecutor, etc. Call me skeptical.

NTS, allow me to suggest you go back to my last post and re-read what I wrote. I said "some aspects of the Green River murders were suppressed, not all of it." Of course there are a lot of officials involved in these types of cases, however I am hear to tell you that if certain aspects are deemed too sensitive to let out to the public from a case, these can be and will be suppressed. I am not saying forever, but things of criminal cases are suppressed all the time. Hey, I am just relaying things I have personally witnessed in my own career. If you chose to not believe it, okay. But, all I can tell you is that I know what I know.

best;
Decker

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[NTS]

I'm not disputing your personal experience. I just think it's a bit of a leap from that to believing that the government (or whoever) could get away with concealing an entire class of murders. Especially when so many ugly facts about serial killings here in the U.S. (and political murders in other countries) eventually do come out. Hearing about those, I'm less scared of aliens than I am of some of my fellow human beings.

 

[Xylo]

It would be cool to get a biologist, feed him the list of spare parts these ETs seem to be interested in and ask him why these components would be significant. And also why the remaining parts left in the carcass would have less value.

These mutilations look like automated scientific experimentation and sampling. Like a cheap low-budget unmanned probe we'd send to a newly discovered earth-like planet.

.... Get the data I don't care who gets killed

I've been thinking about that very same thing. The majority of speculation is, of course, DNA sampling. My thoughts are along the same line but a bit divergent. I think that any "testing" that is being done is done with reference to either the immune system or mitochondrial DNA. My reasoning for both is as follows: IF I were an advanced civilization and were planning on some sort of rendezvous on an inhabited planet, I would like to find out what diseases I might be subjected to, but also if those inhabitants might have any immuno response to any of the normal bacteria that are associated with my particular species. If mitochondrial DNA, that is a great way to record movement and bloodlines of any particular species; in other words, it's our built in tracker.
/speculation

With reference to the show, and this thread in particular; ( I didn't read any of this before I listened to the show.) I just finished listening to the show this afternoon. Chuck is an interesting fellow, and the subjects covered were a bit more disturbing than most of the subjects on The Paracast. But an interesting subject, indeed.

The Todd Sees case is very interesting, however I cannot believe that 30,000 people a year go missing and are thusly unaccounted.

All thanks to Don Ecker for following up on the B52 case, which I thought was a bit fishy to begin with. If someone's memory is "erased" I don't think that the drugs just "wear off" after 30 or 40 years. And those that are in the "know" also know how to eliminate those involved-especially if it was during a hot war, and in-country so that the effects don't wear off.

David mentioned something in this show about speculation-and I heard a great deal of speculation from Mr. Witkowski, some of which I thought was well over the top and overreaching, but generally he seems like a person that is open to all possibilities and not afraid to change course if he were to meet a dead end. I would love to hear him on the show again.

With reference to cattle mutilations: I don't believe that they are ALL done by humans, nor do I believe that they are alleasily attributed to any one particular source. I think there is a strong possibility that mutilations of any kind are a combination of non-humans, humans and animal actions. I would love to hear a panel of researchers talk about this topic in an attempt to debunk the "one source" myth.

 

[ZombieOctopus]

Excellent show Gene and Dave, had me on the edge of my seat. And thanks for clarifying some things Decker, that Vietnam story threw me for a loop but you set it straight.

Looking forward to tomorrows show, now that I've gone through the entire archive, new episodes never seem to come soon enough

 

[Ezechiel]

I've been thinking about that very same thing. The majority of speculation is, of course, DNA sampling. My thoughts are along the same line but a bit divergent. I think that any "testing" that is being done is done with reference to either the immune system or mitochondrial DNA. My reasoning for both is as follows: IF I were an advanced civilization and were planning on some sort of rendezvous on an inhabited planet, I would like to find out what diseases I might be subjected to, but also if those inhabitants might have any immuno response to any of the normal bacteria that are associated with my particular species. If mitochondrial DNA, that is a great way to record movement and bloodlines of any particular species; in other words, it's our built in tracker.

It works both ways, with either contact or invasion intents. Invading without taking into account earths biological infrastructure (crude macro level attack) leads to the H.G. Wells scenario (War of the Worlds) where the aliens get infected and die off .

Giving the benefit of doubt that some aliens are biological creatures, you'd kind of assume that they would understand that contacts between alien species are potentially toxic (easy example: impact on North American aboriginal populations upon first European contact) . Each having been forged in closed environments for millions of years by a genetic 'survival of the fittest' game.

IMHO, Evaluating mitochondrial DNA and bacterial constructs... would be the TOP priority prior any one to one contact or invasion idea. In the eyes of any intelligent biological ET we are a potential biological weapon regardless of the advancement of our technology (should we start migrating to other solar systems).

.... this assuming that all biological entities in the universe emanate from the same primordial soup

 

[Ezechiel]

If they truly needed human bodies, for whatever reason, they probably wouldn't grab some poor schmuck out on a hunting trip and leave his shoe 70 feet up in a tree and his naked body in a bush... Unless maybe the alien that grabbed him was a klutz and let him slip off the UFO's platform?

//crazy speculation start:

Cheap alien automated drone mistook an ATV (four wheels) with a human passenger for a lost cow. Upright biological entities are assumed to be higher up in the evolutionary sequence and usually off limits.

Poor passenger got the cow processing treatment.... When the data gets back to home world, 25 to 50 years from now, some scientist will be screaming: 'Oh shit we have to modify our algorithm'.

// crazy speculation stops.

Lesson of the day: If you're on an ATV and you see a UFO.... Get off your ATV LOL

 

[The Pair of Cats]

Excellent show. Thanks guys!!!

 

[Tommy Allison]

Where Cattle Mutilations are concerned, if the government was behind it, we'd never know it, because they could buy their own cows with OUR tax money.

I find it interesting that as humans, we have technology that allows us to scan people, and animals for various maladies, and sample their DNA that are non-invasive.

One would think that with super technologies such as faster than light travel, Interdimensional Travel, and the kinds of flying abilities their craft have, that they would have little or no trouble doing the same kinds of things we humans could do.

Yet, they resort to killing people, and animals.

Why do people kill animals? More often than not, to eat them.

I would wager that this isn't about science, but about eating the parts of animals and people that might be tastier to an alien species than any DNA sampling.

I had this epiphany after paying a medical bill.

Needless to say, this isn't about hybridizing, nor does it seem even remotely benign.