Clifford Clift - Jan 23

[Sean Elifritz]

Clift was asked about the MUFON journal. He said that they can be found on MUFON's website but he didn't bother mentioning that they are for a fee (Kinda' important detail, don't ya' think?). The ones at TBV are free. That was the whole point of the question, lol. But I'll take his answer as "There won't be anymore free digital copies online."

As far as Zukowski goes that question was pretty much danced around as well. The point I was trying to make is that the STAR team has been promoted as a best of the best, elite sort of thing. I'm not just talking about the name implying that idea, I've heard it referred to in that way. Over and over again I've been told that many of the best at MUFON are involved with it. So lets' compare it to the NBA all-star game. That would make Zukowski like a Lebron James, Kobe Bryant, or Dwyane Wade of Ufology. Sorry, but not being able to recognize Romanek for the hoaxer he is seems like bench player behavior to me, probably even D-league. I'm well aware that UFOs are an ambiguous subject and nobody can be right all the time. But that one is so easy (And I wonder if his stance on Romanek isn't financially motivated, a way of attracting media attention. It seems impossible to me that anyone aware of the facts could honestly believe Stan's claims are genuine)! A journalist looking at things might say, "OK, according to the largest UFO group in the country this guy is one of the best. They even went and gave him a spot on their most prestigious investigative team. Yet he cannot identify this kindergarten-level hoax for what it is. He's obviously a shameless carnival barker (My personal best guess), or pitifully naive. If that's the best imagine what their average members must be like."

 

[Simone_m]

Too bad James Carrion isn't still the mufon director.

 

[pixelsmith]

global warming was mentioned yet again. thank you for keeping this scam in the minds of our viewers!

 

[trainedobserver]

Clift's comments about Crop Circles and what "hoaxers" can and cannot do were incredibly uninformed for a director of MUFON. Sheesh.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Clift's comments about Crop Circles and what "hoaxers" can and cannot do were incredibly uninformed for a director of MUFON. Sheesh.

Let's have the details, OK?

---------- Post added at 12:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 PM ----------

global warming was mentioned yet again. thank you for keeping this scam in the minds of our viewers!

Let's not go there. We've debated that issue to death already.

 

[plumbbob12]

For a different take on this program, I was somewhat depressed upon hearing the Star Team story about the farmer spotting the lights, and then the Star team coming out and having an up-close and personal experience with a real EBE. While I do not want to make fun of anyone who might experience overwhelming fear, (those who do make fun of this kind of fear, have never experienced it), so I believe that when these folks saw the little guy standing by their truck, they lost it, and ran.
What is depressing about the story, that if true, our investigation of aliens is doomed. After all, these Star Team guys are driven to find the truth about what is out there. If these people, upon seeing the one thing they have spent the majority of their lives searching for, run screaming like little girls, then our human psychic cannot hope to cope with this reality. No wonder most people block out any memory of seeing a craft, much less an EBE. I know that most of us on this forum think that we would keep our calm, and walk up the little gray and say something profound, but until it really happens to us, we do not know how we will react, and IF this story about the Star Team is truthful, our hope of ever connecting with this other life form is hopeless.

 

[trainedobserver]

Let's have the details, OK?

Anyone who uses the phrase "too complex for human beings to have made" is totally and completely off-base. Human beings can put men on the moon, write incredibly complex and beautiful music, but they cannot make geometric patterns in a field of crops? His statement that there are "too many" to have be made by humans is absolutely absurd as well. He bases this on what I wonder?

There are videos available that teach you how to recognize the human origins of crop circles and how to make them yourself at Matthew Williams youtube channel.

There is also Cropcirclemakers TV. The following page has a test show and their first show on livestream. Find the first show down at the bottom of the page. The guests are a couple of the makers of the large dragonfly formation.
CirclemakersTV - live streaming video powered by Livestream

Here is their blog with some more information:
About CirclemakersTV

Complex Crop Circles are made by human artists. They are exploited by misinformed, delusional, or just plain opportunistic "Crop Circle Researchers." While some "saucer nests" or "trace evidence" may have anomalous origins it has been shown that the origins and propagation of Complex Crop Circles are human. The evidence is there for anyone who wants to review it. Right now Crop Circle makers are talking and people interested in the true origins of crop circles should listen to them.

Several years ago when I decided to look into the evidence surrounding Crop Circles I was completely opened minded about it, that is to say I didn't care which side the truth fell on. And at the time I was looking into crop circles I was a strong preponent of the ETH. I fell for some the B.S. myself for a while. However, I am convinced that once a person seriously starts listening to the confessed Crop Circle makers as opposed to the Crop Circle researchers, the truth will become remarkably clear. Complex Crop Circles are human works of art. They aren't "hoaxed" they are "created" by artists.

 

[JD Thompson]

I thought this was a sad episode.
If this fellow represents the 'cutting edge' of ufology, and the group he represents is among the best out there, then the field may as well shut down, or give itself over whole-hog to the crazies.
Honestly, his A-level team went on site, supposedly saw ET, and ran away? Please. That's pitiful. He accepts someone's validity as a (pseudo) scientific investigator because she used to work for DoD? That's rich. In what capacity? With what clearance? Think about the level of competence exhibited by the last Federal employee you came into contact with.
I laughed out loud when he said that at least some crop circles are unexplainable. The subject has been so thoroughly and completely debunked, it's simply a joke. Truly, I waited for our hosts to plow into him, and nothing happened.
Must confess I couldn't get through this episode.

 

[plumbbob12]

I could not agree more with your post, except the idea about how "pitiful" it was for this Star Team to run away from our little buddy. As I had said in the past, one cannot understand blind fear unless he or she has experienced it for themselves, and one must be careful to judge one’s own reaction until that fear is experienced firsthand. I do feel that MUFON has become a "tin-foil" hat organization, and being a one time member, I am a little sad that it has come to such a sad state.
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[JD Thompson]

alrightly---I'll amend to 'laughable'. ;>

 

[Gene Steinberg]

I trust y'all realize that we're not able to ask every conceivable question, nor is it always practical to stop on a single point and dig it into the ground. Clifford may be a little too trusting for some of you, but that's his viewpoint, and you should take away from it what you will. Also, a single officer, even the head of a UFO group, doesn't necessarily reflect the viewpoint of the entire organization. One hopes MUFON has a diversity of opinions.

 

[dyingsun]

I thought it was an ok interview, he seemed like a nice guy (his parents must have had a nice sense of humour naming him Cliff )and was coherent, I wish those 'portal' pictures of the Skinwalker or rather 'Bigelow' Ranch would be produced somehow....Bigelow/"Massive Dynamics"(Fringe, tv series) comparisons are in order at this point.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

I thought it was an ok interview, he seemed like a nice guy (his parents must have had a nice sense of humour naming him Cliff )and was coherent, I wish those 'portal' pictures of the Skinwalker or rather 'Bigelow' Ranch would be produced somehow....Bigelow/"Massive Dynamics"(Fringe, tv series) comparisons are in order at this point.

The lack of those photos, plus the stuff from Ted Phillips and Marley Woods as a matter of fact, frustrates me beyond belief.

 

[dyingsun]

Ted Phillips' I can somewhat understand or rather comprehend, he had that one website since 2004 (I believe?) and made it inherently clear on it he wasn't going to 'disclose' the location nor all of his findings before his teams investigations weren't finished (if I remember it right). Why he wouldn't want to do that is anyones guess, probably because he was on to something really interesting or this odd thing that people don't want to share their research in this field (for fame and glory... ).I still give him the benefit of a doubt. It'd rather be earth shattering though.

 

[exo_doc]

I enjoyed the show, but I just wasn't thrilled with Cliff, even though he seemed really nice. Maybe his nerves were just getting the better of him making him seem somewhat ill informed.
And I too find it maddening when someone purports to have evidence of some kind, but find all kinds of reasons not to share it. If you're not going to share it, why on earth would you even mention it?????
It was still a decent show.

 

[Sean Elifritz]

The lack of those photos, plus the stuff from Ted Phillips and Marley Woods as a matter of fact, frustrates me beyond belief.

Y'know, people refer to Ted's "thousands" of soil samples all the time and I use to just accept that without stopping to think about it in depth. But some of the criticism expressed on this forum got me to thinking about it in a more critical way. How many of those thousands of samples have actually been analyzed? Judging by the thin funding Ufology operates on I'm guessing not very many at all. And considering how many he has I also wonder how many he personally collected and how many might have been simply mailed to him. Seems financially impossible that he would be traveling around the world collecting them himself. The situation could be that the vast majority of his collection has never been analyzed and many of the claims unverified (After all, if he never traveled to personally view the landing site it's entirely possible that the person was just spinning a yarn and mailed him dirt from their flower garden). And if that is the case although the sheer numbers sound impressive on the surface does that really stand up as good evidence?

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Mr Clifford Clift ,

Gave it his best shot and Gene & Chris were professional as usual. Mr Clift is also running a business and giving his free time I gather which would be more than some out there who listen to podcast of this nature regards paranormal investigations? Its good to see some form of network to report UFO sightings (legwork) such as MUFON. Furthermore, it easy to be critical of those who seek out some explaintion of what hell is going in these UFO events. Also those who investigated need to sort the wheat from the chaff in this crazy field. More science and acdemic investigators is big direction for MUFON.

Peace,
BF

 

[CapnG]

Overall I think it was a good show if a little dull. Interesting to examine the challenges and trials facing MUFON and gauge their probable reactions. I think my brain got knocked out of alignment when Chris mentioned something about British intelligence using satellites to create crop circles though.

 

[Brian Now]

I felt a little iffy about some of the stuff he said (like about cropcircles) but all in all it was interesting to listen to, though there wasn't that much new material, with one exception.
The Paracast is very good at examining the past of ufology. I doubt there's any other similar podcast or radio show out there (ok, maybe Don Decker's) where one of the host's has that many contacts and institutional knowledge. And that's all fine and good, it even helps current research to see the evolution of how people look at this stuff. But I think we're mostly in this for the events themselves, especially the new ones right?

After all, these Star Team guys are driven to find the truth about what is out there. If these people, upon seeing the one thing they have spent the majority of their lives searching for, run screaming like little girls, then our human psychic cannot hope to cope with this reality.

Well here you go! Here's a new event. I admit rolling my eyes when these "UFO researchers" with equipment and gumption actually stumbled upon a strange humanoid creature and somehow, surprise surprise, we get no evidence of it at all. But my cynicism aside, this is a fresh event! Gold! Gene I hope you and Christopher seriously consider getting those involved on for an interview!

 

[Greg M]

An interview with those people would be interesting indeed ( after all, it was more than a one person event).

---------- Post added at 11:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:13 PM ----------

I think Cliff needs a chance... He sounds like is more open to thinking about other lines of thought and that sounds much better than everything being swamp gas or Venus! It's a start!