Clifford Clift - Jan 23

[softbeard]

Clifford Clift said it himself {I paraphrase from memory}: The former MUFON director was becoming too skeptical (of some UFO-related events that were claimed to have happened, I assume). This former director was taking MUFON in a direction that wasn't good for MUFON. I got the message that, under Mr. Clift's direction, MUFON is to start 'believing" again. That direction, I think, is the begining of the end for MUFON, if allowed to follow its natural course.
Aside, from that, the old fella didn't make much sense most of the time...

 

[Apocalypto]

The point is to not be too skeptical or too believing, but to try to understand what things are as they are.The central goal of a great UFO organization is to use intelligent policies and procedures to achieve excellent results in the analysis of UFO data. Clift appears to be attempting to steer MUFON towards that goal. One thing that struck me in the interview was his focus on the importance of COMMUNICATION amongst MUFON members.

In order to attain any sustained research on the subject, this is a huge requirement - and I applaud his resolve in the matter.

Another point: If I judged the United States by the character of its Presidents, I would have written the whole place off by now! Clearly I would be judging a book by its cover. I would be prejudging an entire nation by the actions of one man.

Let's get real, folks.

 

[trainedobserver]

This former director was taking MUFON in a direction that wasn't good for MUFON.

Also, as former member of military intelligence Jame Carrion spoke about how the UFO community is monitored, infiltrated, and influenced by various intelligence agencies. Here's an example. I think he was/is very cognizant of the fact that the business of UFOs and Intelligence are intimately linked. Was that subject covered in the interview with Clift? I don't recall if it was.

 

[tyder001]

Let me say this since military intelligence was mentioned. My wife was in intelligence in the army. She doesn't talk about specifics even though it's been over 8 years. However, I was always kidding about ufo's. Finally, she did say this (and I know it's not conclusive because everybody doens't know everything about any organization.) But, she said there was "absolutely no military involvement in ufo's that she ever heard of." She feels the government isn't hiding anything about Mork from Ork (my words) and that there is no way a government could hide something that big for that long.

Now, let me say that no it doesn't prove space and bolts ufo's are not out there (although I highly doubt it.) But, it does add to my growing doubt about all these "trace samples" and "landing indentions" and other stuff that folks "cling" to in order to beleive in the space brothers.

 

[trainedobserver]

...and that there is no way a government could hide something that big for that long.

What secret? Some might argue that the cat has been out of the bag for sometime now. Also, the history of the Intelligence community's involvement with UFOs is highly documented and pretty much undeniable at this point. If you look at the literature, they have been running this Punch and Judy show since day one.

 

[dyingsun]

We all are just seekers here..

 

[tyder001]

Also, the history of the Intelligence community's involvement with UFOs is highly documented and pretty much undeniable at this point.

Nope! Opinions and hear say. Not that I don't agree (as I've said many times before) but proof? No, not really. Not absolute undeniable proof. Then again not much in this world is "proven" beyond a shadow of a doubt. But, to really find the smoking gun that nobody can deny would indeed be a turning point. Hasn't happened yet nor do I expect it.

---------- Post added at 05:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:58 PM ----------

We all are just seekers here..

Very true and if people could only realize that they would have much better blood pressure. I'm reading "Gods of Eden" now and it is full of documentation. None of it provable and none of it has thouroughly convinced me. But, it is interesting. One thing I find is that everybody wants concrete proof of everything in this world. Truth is not often quite as cut and dried as people on any side of any issue would like it to be. Still, (to quote an old favorite show of mine) "The truth is out there."

 

[trainedobserver]

Nope! Opinions and hear say.

What? Have you read the literature? The Paul Bennewitiz affair is just one example, there are many, many others. Just opinions and hear-say huh? Good grief.

 

[tyder001]

Yep! he said, she said. Many, many others? Allrighty then. I'm all in! I'm sure the U.S. Military can account for all ufo events.

Thing is I do agree there may be military involvement. I don't beleive in nuts and bolts spacemen/women. But, I try to keep an open mind and nothing is proven as of yet.

---------- Post added at 05:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:34 PM ----------

I gotta be honest here cause I'm kind of light hearted when it comes to u.f.o's. I don't beleive they are a threat to mankind. I don't beleive aliens from another world are going to take over the earth. I do beleive that the miltary does have something to do with reports and I did read Greg Bishops excellent book on the Bennewittinz affair. Much food for thought there. But, I'm not sure I agree with Vallee or Jacobs or Freidman. I would more than likely look more at the work of Vallee as he seems to embrace more of the history of things. I personally think the abduction experience is much more interesting than the ufo myth. I don't know if abduction is a spritual or purley psychological event or a little of both. It could even be a chemical imbalance for all I know. But it does speak to our deepest ideas about what it is to be human and to be on the earth. It's a very, very wide and interesting field. I don't mean to belittle anybodies opionions or honest belief as to what they feel is behind it. But, no I don't really and truly feel any threat be it alien or military on a personal level.

 

[Will Penguin]

Gene (and Chris)- since crop circles have been brought up... have you ever considered having Colin Andrews on? I think it'd make for a very interesting episode and some lively discussion on the forums.

 

[trainedobserver]

Yep! he said, she said. Many, many others? Allrighty then. I'm all in! I'm sure the U.S. Military can account for all ufo events.

Then that would be your assertion not mine.

If you'll read what I actually posted I said, "Also, the history of the Intelligence community's involvement with UFOs is highly documented and pretty much undeniable at this point." If you read the early literature tyder, from Rupplet and Keyhoe to Vallee you will see serious accounts of Intelligence operations related to UFOs and the UFO community. Are you denying that?

I also said, "If you look at the literature, they have been running this Punch and Judy show since day one." I did not mean to imply that the Intelligence community created or staged all UFO activity. What I said, and what I have been saying, is that the Intelligence community has had a hand in shaping public opinion about UFOs from the very beginning. The Intelligence community has always been interested in UFO groups. Just look at who some of the main players were in those groups were. The Intelligence community has been interested in what people see in the sky and what they think it is since before the U2.

Yes tyder, it is proven that the U.S. Intelligence community as well as those of foreign nations, have been concerned with UFOs and UFO groups in relationship to the overflight of spy-planes and creation of subversive influences since the 1950s.

Just to be clear. I'm thinking at this point that the only thing we know about UFOs is what their effect has been on society. That they (or simply the belief in them) are a tool being used by someone is pretty clear. One of their documented uses is the obfuscation of classified and or covert Intelligence and military activity. I think there is a core phenomena that is of an unknown origin however I think the belief in this core phenomena is used by Intelligence for their own purposes. Hiding the existence of the U2 spy-plane is one documented historical instance of employing the UFO myth. I think everything Ufology thinks it knows about UFOs, aliens, or multi-dimensional beings is highly suspect and should be consigned to speculation at best. You have to ask the question, "Where did the story come from?" It is an important thing to ask I think.

 

[tyder001]

What I said, and what I have been saying, is that the Intelligence community has had a hand in shaping public opinion about UFOs from the very beginning. The Intelligence community has always been interested in UFO groups. Just look at who some of the main players were in those groups were. The Intelligence community has been interested in what people see in the sky and what they think it is since before the U2.


We agree on this point. The other points I still maintain a healthy skepticm and open mind on.

---------- Post added at 06:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:49 PM ----------

Like I've said before. I don't take the nuts and bolts ufo myth all that serioulsy. If the military is doing black ops then they are wasting alot of money. Most mainstream media and everyday citizens could care less about the reality of u.f.o.'s. So, how does it benifit the military to keep on perpetuating a myth that nobody outside of a hollywood movie pays that much attention to? I enjoy the back and forth and as I've said abduction may be more interesting than the space bros at least it is to me. But, I'm not really convinced of anything in ufology at this time.

 

[plumbbob12]

I got to throw my 2 cents worth in on this topic. We are giving the Federal Government way too much credit on the UFO topic. Having worked for the Feds for 6 years, (that is all I could take, and I only had a secret clearance, which is next to nothing), I know that half of the fed employees only want to stick it out until there retirement comes through. The administrative branch only wants to scam as much appropriated moneys they can get, and could do nothing without the aid of the technical series employees. I personally think that the Feds know just about as much as we do, and do not want to rock the boat by having a lot of congressional hearings asking “why don’t you have control of our skies”.
As far as James C., the ex- head of MUFON’s idea of the government using some kind of advanced technology, this is utter bunk. One of the jokes we have in high energy technology is the line, “we have the right propulsion system, but we just do not have an extension cord long enough to get it anywhere”. This applies to electro-magnetic, ion, and plasma drive systems. Although these engines have been around for some time, and would make a trip to Mars 80% faster than the chemical rocket engines, we do not have an energy system to support these technologies. So the idea that we have some sort of technology that can move a craft larger than a football field is crazy. Look up the research being done on monopole magnets at CERN and Fermi lab, (see: Magnetic monopole experiment at CERN could rewrite laws of physics) . We are still in the Stone Age. The only caveat I would use is the idea of nuclear rocket engines, which were developed in the 60’s and were about 10K more energetic than chemical rockets. pb

 

[tyder001]

One problem with some folks is they are so "eat up" with the idea that everything has to be nuts and bolts and conform to our limited knowledge of the universe. So, Super ESP becomes preferable to life after death. Space aliens who seeded the planet becomes more "scientific" than interdimensional reality or the possibiltiy of it. The allignment of the planets by chance and the myth of the primordial soup becomes more "reasonalble" than purpose and conscience intent. I don't know what u.f.o.'s are. I do know the U.S. military has not been around as long as reports of u.f.o.'s and lights in the sky have been. I don't know what the abduction expereince is. I do keep an open mind. It's kind of funny to me. I honestly "Don't know" but have my own intuition and expereince and I search when it comes to the paranormal. Yet, I'm called "illogical" by some. While the true "belivers" come on here and talk about "trace landings" and "proof" that just hasn't been revealed yet. The other true believers (pesudo skeptics) come on and talk about Venus or hallucinations or the black ops did it. But they are "scientific" don'tcha know?

 

[PararealitySaint]

Did anyone feel as though Clifford made it sound like MUFON had proof positive that Extra-Terrestrial life was a fact and that they might have "evidence" in the area of either metal or some physical object that the organization is keeping from the public? I don't have time to listen to the broadcast again today but I could have sworn that when he was on the subject he began to discuss how this was the case...Perhaps bits and pieces of some metal or crash or something?

Sorry if I misunderstood his intention or what he said but for some reason I thought he sounded rather definite about the organization possessing superior definitive proof above that which the usual retro-hypnotists and mediums have.

He stated something during the broadcast right around the time there was a mention of "landing on the White House lawn."

 

[Ezechiel]

LOL Christmas trees and Ufos.... Yup! that pretty much defines in a broad stroke the depth of this episode

Maybe Gene and Chris should have spent more time asking about his duties as manager of Mufon and initiatives/plans for the coming year rather than the actual subject of Ufos. He came across as more of an administrator than a UFO enthusiast

 

[Gene Steinberg]

LOL Christmas trees and Ufos.... Yup! that pretty much defines in a broad stroke the depth of this episode

Maybe Dave and Chris should have spent more time asking about his duties as manager of Mufon and initiatives/plans for the coming year rather than the actual subject of Ufos. He came across as more of an administrator than a UFO enthusiast

That's something highlighted throughout the interview, but the fine managerial details can also be extremely boring. You have to strike a balance.

The reason we open up our forums for questions is to allow you to second guess the hosts and come up with questions we might not have on our agenda. You may think a three hour show offers a lot of time, but there's always a lot we can never cover.

 

[plumbbob12]

The discussion of some new form of physical evidence has been around for the last few months, and from what I have heard, it pertains to some real material that was supposed to be from a spaceship. It was to be tested in a metallurgical lab somewhere, and the results are forthcoming.
The problem here is a direct problem with our lack of a robust scientific educational system. I have heard debunkers, and even the general public state, that unless they found some form of new element that was not found on earth, they would not believe that the material was alien. What most of these folks don’t know is that the universe seems to have all the same physical properties that we have on earth, and hence they would have the same periodical element table, with iron, aluminum, cobalt, etc, along with most of the isotopes. Now an alien material might have some advanced combination of elements, or nano particles, but for the “new elements”, I doubt that they would be using anything new on their basic aircraft skin. With that said, they might have found heaver elements that have remained undiscovered here on earth, but these very heavy elements would probably be used in there propulsion system, and they would be very radioactive. Remember the 1894 (I think??) Aurora Texas UFO crash into a local Judges windmill. They found strange combinations of aluminum material, which would make total sense, and support the idea of an alien spacecraft, but they had no “unknown” elements, because the universe has the same laws of chemistry and physics that we have here, and there sun which would go nova, would produce the same elements using H and He and gravitational collapse, the same way our previous sun did here several billion years ago... zp

 

[Ezechiel]

That's something highlighted throughout the interview, but the fine managerial details can also be extremely boring. You have to strike a balance.

The reason we open up our forums for questions is to allow you to second guess the hosts and come up with questions we might not have on our agenda. You may think a three hour show offers a lot of time, but there's always a lot we can never cover.

This guest was a hard call for questions. I think your line of questions made it clear that MUFON chose him for his administrative skills rather than his indept grasp of the ufo subject. More of a hobby to complement his christmas tree business. The show was enlightening in that respect.

 

[mike]

For a different take on this program, I was somewhat depressed upon hearing the Star Team story about the farmer spotting the lights, and then the Star team coming out and having an up-close and personal experience with a real EBE. While I do not want to make fun of anyone who might experience overwhelming fear, (those who do make fun of this kind of fear, have never experienced it), so I believe that when these folks saw the little guy standing by their truck, they lost it, and ran.
What is depressing about the story, that if true, our investigation of aliens is doomed. After all, these Star Team guys are driven to find the truth about what is out there. If these people, upon seeing the one thing they have spent the majority of their lives searching for, run screaming like little girls, then our human psychic cannot hope to cope with this reality. No wonder most people block out any memory of seeing a craft, much less an EBE. I know that most of us on this forum think that we would keep our calm, and walk up the little gray and say something profound, but until it really happens to us, we do not know how we will react, and IF this story about the Star Team is truthful, our hope of ever connecting with this other life form is hopeless.

I think the fear is induced, when it happened to me, the fear was unlike any ive ever experienced and i had asked for contact, was ready for it.
But as soon as i clapped eyes on the entity, my humanity was stripped from me leaving me in a state i can only describe as primal.
Like i had been reduced to an animal state, my response seemed to come from the primative part of my cortex.
Ive been in situations where ive been deliberatly frightened, and even situations where i thought i was going to die.
In retrospect the fear itself was "alien", and thus i suspect it was externally induced, and not a natural reaction

---------- Post added at 11:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 AM ----------

Anyone who uses the phrase "too complex for human beings to have made" is totally and completely off-base. Human beings can put men on the moon, write incredibly complex and beautiful music, but they cannot make geometric patterns in a field of crops? His statement that there are "too many" to have be made by humans is absolutely absurd as well. He bases this on what I wonder?

There are videos available that teach you how to recognize the human origins of crop circles and how to make them yourself at Matthew Williams youtube channel.

There is also Cropcirclemakers TV. The following page has a test show and their first show on livestream. Find the first show down at the bottom of the page. The guests are a couple of the makers of the large dragonfly formation.
CirclemakersTV - live streaming video powered by Livestream

Here is their blog with some more information:
About CirclemakersTV

Complex Crop Circles are made by human artists. They are exploited by misinformed, delusional, or just plain opportunistic "Crop Circle Researchers." While some "saucer nests" or "trace evidence" may have anomalous origins it has been shown that the origins and propagation of Complex Crop Circles are human. The evidence is there for anyone who wants to review it. Right now Crop Circle makers are talking and people interested in the true origins of crop circles should listen to them.

Several years ago when I decided to look into the evidence surrounding Crop Circles I was completely opened minded about it, that is to say I didn't care which side the truth fell on. And at the time I was looking into crop circles I was a strong preponent of the ETH. I fell for some the B.S. myself for a while. However, I am convinced that once a person seriously starts listening to the confessed Crop Circle makers as opposed to the Crop Circle researchers, the truth will become remarkably clear. Complex Crop Circles are human works of art. They aren't "hoaxed" they are "created" by artists.

And yet if you click on the 4th link down here
http://www.circlemakers.org/perpetrators.html

even they have weird stuff happening

http://www.circlemakers.org/weird_shit.html

---------- Post added at 11:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:10 AM ----------

The lack of those photos, plus the stuff from Ted Phillips and Marley Woods as a matter of fact, frustrates me beyond belief.

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