Clifford Clift - Jan 23

[CapnG]

Sorry if I misunderstood his intention or what he said but for some reason I thought he sounded rather definite about the organization possessing superior definitive proof above that which the usual retro-hypnotists and mediums have.

I don't think that was the case. As I recall he said he thought that MUFON would essentially be THE organization to present the world with the "smoking gun" (if and when such a thing is possible) but in no way did I get the impression that they either had such proof or were ready to present it.

 

[Thabtos]

alrightly---I'll amend to 'laughable'. ;>

Hey, do you know anything about the sighting (and I guess contact) last year in TN? I'm a journalist in West TN and I haven't heard anything about it.

 

[Sean Elifritz]

Hey, do you know anything about the sighting (and I guess contact) last year in TN? I'm a journalist in West TN and I haven't heard anything about it.

Nothing surprising about that. The media typically doesn't care about UFO stories. Try looking it up on the net. Don't know if there's anything or not but there might be.

 

[tyder001]

I have heard debunkers, and even the general public state, that unless they found some form of new element that was not found on earth, they would not believe that the material was alien. What most of these folks don’t know is that the universe seems to have all the same physical properties that we have on earth, and hence they would have the same periodical element table, with iron, aluminum, cobalt, etc, along with most of the isotopes. Now an alien material might have some advanced combination of elements, or nano particles, but for the “new elements”, I doubt that they would be using anything new on their basic aircraft skin.

This caused me to have a "Doh" moment. I had never (and I thought I wuz smart) thought of this. Now I still am not convinced that we are being visited by space aliens. But, it does give reason to think about the old debunker "Why wouldn't the material be alien" line. I've used that line myself. Also, what "material" could be alien? How would our mind (if you think we are part of the concsience universe) or our brain(if you think we are meatbots)even be able to process or put something like that into perspective? So, if we do have visitors then this is a great point. The elements would (from the pyhsical universe) be the same.

 

[CapnG]

The elements would (from the pyhsical universe) be the same.

Except they're not though. I'm not a metallurgist but my understanding of this (and anyone who knows better, please jump in and correct me if I'm wrong) is that metals on earth are rarely-if-at-all pure, there's always some evidence of contamination, oxidization or whatever. Metals mined and/or manufactured in space on the other hand would have fewer/none of these impurities. More importantly though, with the right equipment we can detect that. So while ET may build his ships out of aluminium and not zardmium12 it's still not going to be like the aluminium we're used to on earth and that in-and-of-itself would be enough of a smoking gun to raise some eyebrows...

 

[tyder001]

I follow you but I think plumbob is saying that the base elements will be the same and not a completely different material. That's the part that I had never really considered until now.

 

[Thabtos]

Nothing surprising about that. The media typically doesn't care about UFO stories. Try looking it up on the net. Don't know if there's anything or not but there might be.

A out of the ordinary story sells.

Local UFO Sightings on the Rise | MyFox Memphis | Fox 13 News

There were supposedly 30 sightings in Tennessee last year, the case Clift mentioned seems to be the most interesting. Most sightings are reported in urban areas, obviously because there are more people in the vicinity. I am personally interested in the rural sightings because there is less likelihood for someone mistaking a streetlight or commercial/military aircraft for a ufo.

If anyone has any more information about the case Clift mentioned MUFON investigated, please share it with me!

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

Gene (and Chris)- since crop circles have been brought up... have you ever considered having Colin Andrews on? I think it'd make for a very interesting episode and some lively discussion on the forums.

Good idea! If not Colin maybe another top croppie... Then we'll ask Mathew Willaims or John Lundgren or one of the other talented hoaxers and do a debate/roundtable...

 

[trainedobserver]

Then we'll ask Mathew Willaims or John Lundgren or one of the other talented hoaxers and do a debate/roundtable...

The use of the term hoaxer implies that they create crop circles and attempt to pass them off as being created by non-human means. This is not the case, at least not that I am aware of. The people who make outlandish claims about crop art are the researchers not the crop circle makers themselves. If anyone is hoaxing it is the crowd promoting them as other than man-made crop art. Whose that?

If such a show were to materialize I'd think it would be interesting for those who think crop circles are other than man-made to pick out a crop circle for Williams or some other confessed crop circle maker to provide a quick analysis of.

 

[tyder001]

It would also be interesting for the dubunkers and fakers to answer some folks who "think" they know the legit from the fake. I am very skeptical of crop circles but at the same time willing to listen.

 

[softbeard]

I follow you but I think plumbob is saying that the base elements will be the same and not a completely different material. That's the part that I had never really considered until now.

The chemical elements in a sample of non-earth ('alien') origin would be the same, but the ratios of isotopes in that element sample would likely be radically different. Though, the differing isotope ratios wouldn't be conclusive proof of alien origin, since there is some variation even here on earth in isotope ratios for elements depending where they are mined or sampled. Still, a large difference in isotopic ratios in a sample from the normal ratios found on earth would certainly raise some eyebrows.

 

[tyder001]

So, I guess we really will have to have a craft land on national t.v. to really be sure. Well, even then you couldn't be sure. I really doubt we are being visited by aliens but it's an intersting discussion.

 

[pong]

I'm impressed with Clifford Clift, impressed on a number of levels. I think he deserves to pilot MUFON for a while and I hope he has a good flight.

What does a MUFON director need to do? The same things most CEOs need to do: be enthusiastic, manage well and encourage the volunteer force, maintain high integrity, oversee finances with skill and look for innovative ways to foster and grow the organization. Based on Mr. C's Paracast interview, he seems to have all these skills.

Cliff is a very personable guy, is easy to talk to, has a great sense of humor and doesn't take himself too seriously. That's refreshing. He has his own personal beliefs about UFOs--some of which he shared on the show--but he doesn't force them down your throat. He's also open to the possibility that UFOs are somehow related to other paranormal events. Happily, Jacques Vallee's research has not gone unnoticed.

On crop formations, which may be related somehow to UFOs, I think Cliff has the right take: most are hoaxes but, like UFOs, it's not logical that every single one, on every continent, is a hoax. Some are genuinely anomalous and I personally think that fact can be scientifically proven.

When Cliff mentioned that the B2 Bomber seems to use anti-gravity technology, Gene's curiosity was peaked. For the record, though, this idea did not originate with MUFON. Cliff cited the reporting of Jane's Information Group (in the UK) in particular. Also, Dr. Paul LaViolette wrote a book on the subject and cited many engineering facts that point to the conclusion that yes, anti-grav technology is at work. Retired Lockheed engineer Boyd Bushman has also intimated the military is dabbling with anti-gravity. Many years may pass before we know for sure.

Maybe the thing I like most about Cliff is his candid manner. You just have the sense that he tells it like he sees it and has no interest in political intrigue. Ufology needs more straight-shooters like Clifford who don't get entangled with dogma, ego trippers or turf wars. Most importantly, Cliff said several times that ufology has to become integrated with mainstream science if it hopes to succeed. Bob Bigelow feels the same way and it's too bad his efforts at involving universities with ufology have so far been rebuffed.

The question came up: Could the US military reverse-engineer parts of an ET craft? Given decades of time and billions of dollars, I think the answer is yes and I think I heard Cliff agree with me. That brings to mind one of the most intriguing remarks every made by a military officer regarding UFOs. That was a comment made by General Wesley Clark, former commander of NATO. Speaking briefly to David Rudiak in 2004, he said, "There are things going on. But we will have to work out our own mathematics." Work on the mathematics? The mathematics of reverse-enginnering? The math of dimensional travel? What exactly was the general referring to? I have a feeling this four-star general could tell us a lot about what the military has learned--if only he was permitted to.

Regarding MUFON investigators in a cornfield who run away when they finally encounter that which they seek, there's a certain irony here, maybe even comedy. This is not the first time, though, that people have confronted "them" and became overwhelmed with fear. This is a common theme in close encounter stories. The "fight or flight" instinct in humans takes over and most of the time you and I will run. At least our intrepid UFO investigators had the courage to suck it up and go back.

Story Musgrave to keynote at the MUFON Symposium? That's a home run. Repairman for the Hubble Space Telescope, he's one of the most accomplished astronauts NASA ever produced.

Finally, at an age when most men are slowing down and entertaining the grandkids, it's inspiring to see people like Clifford Clift and Ted Phillips head "off to work" each day with more enthusiasm than ever. There's a lesson there for all of us.

- - - -

Is everyone supporting The Paracast and GCN to the fullest extent? I know I am. At this moment I'm rocked back in my easy chair smoking an electronic cigarette, occasionally sipping some high-alkaline water and all the while slowly stroking the supple, rich Corinthian leather of the new holster for my concealed handgun. Stay thirsty my friend.

​

 

[Will Penguin]

Is everyone supporting The Paracast and GCN to the fullest extent? I know I am. At this moment I'm rocked back in my easy chair smoking an electronic cigarette, occasionally sipping some high-alkaline water and all the while slowly stroking the supple, rich Corinthian leather of the new holster for my concealed handgun. Stay thirsty my friend.

You're killing me here!

I mean, even more so than this acidic water that BURNS HOLES IN MY BODY.

 

[Sean Elifritz]

The use of the term hoaxer implies that they create crop circles and attempt to pass them off as being created by non-human means. This is not the case, at least not that I am aware of. The people who make outlandish claims about crop art are the researchers not the crop circle makers themselves. If anyone is hoaxing it is the crowd promoting them as other than man-made crop art. Whose that?

If such a show were to materialize I'd think it would be interesting for those who think crop circles are other than man-made to pick out a crop circle for Williams or some other confessed crop circle maker to provide a quick analysis of.

Interesting to me that you call sneaking onto someone's property and destroying property "art." More like vandalism to me.

 

[trainedobserver]

Interesting to me that you call sneaking onto someone's property and destroying property "art." More like vandalism to me.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I agree, it is vandalism. It is a form of graffiti. My calling it art isn't to argue its merits but to point out that the motivation for creating them is something other than trying to pass them off as alien messages of some sort. I agree that it is unethical to destroy someone else's property to create your art. I don't defend crop circle makers destroying property. I do however support their efforts to tell the truth about the origins of crop circles.

 

[DisownedSky]

Too bad James Carrion isn't still the MUFON director.

I agree. Clift is a huge disappointment. Carrion is thoughtful, well spoken and a proper skeptic, and had the potential to move MUFON on the path to respectability. Not Clift.

 

[pong]

I wrote a rather glowing review of Mr. Clift right after his appearance on the Paracast. After listening to the recent interview with Jim Carrion, though, I think I'm now in the same boat with many others--I have real questions about the ethical conduct of the MUFON board. To accuse Mr. Carrion of financial malfeasance is a serious charge, especially since it appears that Jim did his level best to upgrade and improve MUFON's bookkeeping.

I think we all have the responsibility to keep watch on the MUFON board now and hold them up to better scrutiny than we might have in the past. If the board acted in inappropriate ways toward Jim Carrion then I think they owe Jim and the UFO community an apology. We need transparency, as some President once said. We certainly need it from the MUFON board members.

 

[softbeard]

I guess the gallery has decided. Not Clift.

---------- Post added at 02:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:17 PM ----------

Interesting to me that you call sneaking onto someone's property and destroying property "art." More like vandalism to me.

Destroying property? What are you getting at, Wickerman1972?