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Consciousness and the Paranormal — Part 10

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State of the field: Are the results of science contingent or inevitable? - PubMed - NCBI

I read the abstract at your link just after reading the paper on Wittgenstein's ideas concerning "aspect seeing" that I link below. These papers seem to address the same issues concerning the contingency and relativity of what we see and of what we think. You will be capable of understanding much more than I can in this following paper, and I look forward to hearing what you have to say about it:

On Being Surprised: Wittgenstein on Aspect-Perception, Logic, and Mathematics
Juliet Floyd

Extracts

". . . By 1929 Wittgenstein had surrendered this aspiration to completeness. Although the notation of truth-tables was all right in its place, it worked for only a fragment or one aspect of language, not the whole: one could not see in the general propositional form the logic of language. The Tractatus’s recursive specification of the general propositional form, and of the grammar of number words, was too “nebulous” ( PR 131 [§109]). As Russell pointed out in his introduction to the Tractatus, the mathematics of the higher infinite had not been diagrammed, but only gestured at, in Wittgenstein’s remarks on mathematics. As Ramsey emphasized, the method of truth-tables could not help with the more fine-grained needs of mathematical logicians. Ordinary statements of color, measurement, degree, and continuity could not be seen in the method of truth-table diagramming either. And the idea that the needs of natural science, perhaps of cosmology, would be decisive in determining the particular choice of notational system came to seem to Wittgenstein a cop out. It was both too much of a concession to promissory scientism, and too little engaged with the task of seeing aspects of grammar and notation in the small. It also held philosophy hostage to the deliverances of the empirical as it would be understood in physics."

"Wittgenstein replaced his reliance on the idea of the independence of the elementary propositions, as well as the primacy of the truth-table notation as part of a specification of a complete general form of proposition, with an image of Satzsysteme, systems of propositions exhibiting grammatical variety, autonomy, and distinctive internal character or physiognomy. While he continued to emphasize the importance of the calculational aspect of mathematical activity, everywhere we see aspect-perception and the dawning of new ways of seeing systems lifting his account beyond the limits of this way of seeing logic. Like Peirce, he seems to have regarded our ability to shift our way of seeing a given diagram, projecting it into a new dimension, as a mark of what makes human mathematical reasoning distinct from anything codifiable in deductive formal logic alone, or solvable by mechanical means. 26

In leaving behind part of his perspective, Wittgenstein did not surrender his reliance on aspect-perception; he instead increased and intensified it, precisely so as to retain the underlying idea that in philosophy there are no (deeper than aspectual) surprises (necessities, possibilities). He extended and refined his appeals to the seeing (and failing to see) of one system in another, applying them to a wide range of mathematical and logical examples – including the Sheffer Stroke itself (BT 477–78). Aspect-perception lay behind not only his idea that proofs by induction in arithmetic are schematic pictures, rather than proofs consisting of sequences of sentences with sense, but also his idea that consistency and impossibility proofs for systems are similarly a matter of embedding one system inside another, as well as his idea that because proofs of elementary sums written out in the prose of Principia Mathematica would require us to apply arithmetic to the formalism – counting variables to check the proofs – the claim that Russell’s foundation of arithmetic provided a substantial epistemic foundation is like the claim that the painted rock is the foundation of the painted tower (again, an analogy with aspects of puzzle-pictures; cf. RFM VII, §16). This allowed Wittgenstein to retain and deepen his earlier idea that in logic and mathematics there are no surprises – no discovery of facts or of possibilities construed on the model of properties or facts – but instead activities, trains of thought and arrangements of grammar that strike us.

The grammars of different “systems” can cross and so change our ways of looking at each of them. This forms a nascent but significant element in articulating what was to become a crucial theme in Wittgenstein’s later philosophy: namely, his critique of the idea that human thought and language is everywhere governed by grammatical rules in the same way, his insistence that the evolution of language, in general, and of mathematics and logic in particular, is both open-ended and unforeseeable in general. This makes itself felt in the fact that Wittgenstein’s discussions of figurative or “secondary” meaning, as Cavell puts it so well in The Claim of Reason, takes place in regions where “there is no antecedent agreement on criteria” and that “this is itself a grammatical remark.”27 Surprises are ineradicable in mathematics, in logic, and in philosophy. Part of what it is to command language is to incorporate into it, case by case, the unforeseen and the interesting. That is the beauty and the importance of looking at how to arrange it. 28"

http://www.bu.edu/philo/files/2011/01/KrebsDay.pdf
 
It was a hard thing to undo this knot.

It was a hard thing to undo this knot.
The rainbow shines, but only in the thought
Of him that looks. Yet not in that alone,
For who makes rainbows by invention?

And many standing round a waterfall
See one bow each, yet not the same to all,
But each a hand's breadth further than the next.

The sun on falling waters writes the text
Which yet is in the eye or in the thought.
It was a hard thing to undo this knot.

Gerard Manley Hopkins
 
Links to further reading concerning Wittgenstein's aspect-seeing:

http://centurylink.net/search/index.php?q=Wittgenstein,+Aspect-Seeing+&context=search
 
Two cantos from Wallace Stevens's "An Ordinary Evening in New Haven" ~~


XII

The poem is the cry of its occasion,
Part of the res itself and not about it.
The poet speaks the poem as it is,

Not as it was: part of the reverberation
Of a windy night as it is, when the marble statues
Are like newspapers blown by the wind. He speaks

By sight and insight as they are. There is no
Tomorrow for him. The wind will have passed by,
The statues will have gone back to be things about.

The mobile and immobile flickering
In the area between is and was are leaves,
Leaves burnished in autumnal burnished trees

And leaves in whirlings in the gutters, whirlings
Around and away, resembling the presence of thought
Resembling the presences of thoughts, as if,

In the end, in the whole psychology, the self,
the town, the weather, in a casual litter,
Together, said words of the world are the life of the world.

...

XXVIII

If it should be true that reality exists
In the mind: the tin plate, the loaf of bread on it,
The long-bladed knife, the little to drink and her

Misericordia, it follows that
Real and unreal are two in one: New Haven
Before and after one arrives or, say,

Bergamo on a postcard, Rome after dark,
Sweden described, Salzburg with shaded eyes
Or Paris in conversation at a café.

This endlessly elaborating poem
Displays the theory of poetry,
As the life of poetry. A more severe,

More harassing master would extemporize
Subtler, more urgent proof that the theory
Of poetry is the theory of life,

As it is, in the intricate evasions of as,
In things seen and unseen, created from nothingness,
The heavens, the hells, the worlds, the longed-for lands.
 
Here are links to two SEP articles that can extend the breadth of our discussion of perception, experience, and consciousness:

The Contents of Perception (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Perceptual Experience and Perceptual Justification (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
Related Entries
consciousness: representational theories of | constructive empiricism |epiphenomenalism | Indian Philosophy (Classical): perceptual experience and concepts | justification, epistemic: coherentist theories of | justification, epistemic: foundationalist theories of | justification, epistemic: internalist vs. externalist conceptions of | meaning: normativity of | mental content |mental content: causal theories of | mental content: externalism about |mental content: narrow | mental content: nonconceptual | mental content: teleological theories of | perception: epistemological problems of |perception: the contents of | perception: the problem of | qualia | qualia: inverted | qualia: knowledge argument | reasoning: defeasible | relativism |religious experience | science: theory and observation in | sense-data |skepticism | skepticism: and content externalism | time: the experience and perception of
 
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All excellent comments and questions. I will try to address.


Okay, on (soupie's) conscious realism monism, when we say "physiological" change, we understand that physiological change is what humans perceive and conceptualize when something changes in mind-independent reality. Physiological = phenomenal (what we perceive and/or conceive) which corresponds to change in "noumenal" reality, i.e. Mind-independent reality.

At the same time, we understand that the phenomenal is a subset of the noumenal. That is, minds are systems within noumenal reality.


Yes, the above account is essentially what I meant about more going on. I.e., not every physiological change would play a role (hard to find good language) in conscious perception, only certain sufficient physiological change.

However, the other big issue for CR is—as I've touched in before—if consciousness is fundamental, shouldn't all physiological change be conscious? Why does only certain physiological change play a role in conscious perception?

This is where I make an important distinction between consciousness (feeling) and subjective experience. (Or we could say experience and subjective experience.)

What I am arguing is that consciousness (feeling) as substrate is fundamental (in relation to matter) and evolves into systems capable of subjective experience. (It is subjective experience that many commonly equate with consciousness (feeling).)

From the 3rd person perspective, this is known as the process of living organisms evolving from non-living matter.

A very, very simplistic metaphor might be whirl pools forming in a pond (yes, a pond again). The pond would correspond to a human organism in this case.

One very large, particularly complex whirlpool might correspond to a stream of consciousness, subjective experience, within this pond. All around this large whirl pool are little whirl pools, sometimes they get pulled into the stream of consciousness (SE) sometimes not.

All the whirlpools and pond exist within this consciousness (feeling) as substrate, but only sufficiently organized (for lack of a better term) systems of this substrate are subjective experience.

This SE can go away, change, etc.


No, there is no strong emergence. Matter does not strongly emerge from consciousness (feeling) as substrate.

I would use the langue above but reverse it: matter is a property of consciousness (feeling) arranged in certain ways.

But with a big caveat that you might not want to let me have.

Feeling isn't the only property that consciousness (feeling) as substrate has. It must have other properties, some of which we do consider material properties.

For one, consciousness (feeling) as substrate must be able to interact and differentiate. (Whether these are intrinsic or extrinsic properties I'm not sure.)

By saying that on my CR, consciousness (feeling) as substrate must have these properties, it may be that my view is captured by Russelian panpsychism or Strawson's real physicalism.

The one difference I maintain is that many of the properties of matter that we think of as objective and mind-independent are likely not.


Whether one is a physicalist, idealist, or dualist, there is no escaping the fact that whatever substrate one looks at, it must have the properties of interaction and differentiation.

Thus, the perceiving mind is a diverse system, and when it looks at itself it sees this diverse system as a diverse physical system we call a brain.

As I understand it, you claim your view avoids the hard problem by holding that consciousness is fundamental. But then you say:

This is where I make an important distinction between consciousness (feeling) and subjective experience. (Or we could say experience and subjective experience.)

What I am arguing is that consciousness (feeling) as substrate is fundamental (in relation to matter) and evolves into systems capable of subjective experience. (It is subjective experience that many commonly equate with consciousness (feeling).)


How do you respond to Nagel in WILTBAB?

"But fundamentally an organism has conscious mental states if and only if there is something that it is to be that organism—something it is like for the organism." - WILTBAB

"I have chosen bats instead of wasps or flounders because if one travels too far down the phylogenetic tree, people gradually shed their faith that there is experience there at all."
 
As I understand it, you claim your view avoids the hard problem by holding that consciousness is fundamental. But then you say:

This is where I make an important distinction between consciousness (feeling) and subjective experience. (Or we could say experience and subjective experience.)

What I am arguing is that consciousness (feeling) as substrate is fundamental (in relation to matter) and evolves into systems capable of subjective experience. (It is subjective experience that many commonly equate with consciousness (feeling).)


How do you respond to Nagel in WILTBAB?

"But fundamentally an organism has conscious mental states if and only if there is something that it is to be that organism—something it is like for the organism." - WILTBAB

"I have chosen bats instead of wasps or flounders because if one travels too far down the phylogenetic tree, people gradually shed their faith that there is experience there at all."
I would say that a "conscious mental state" is akin to subjective experience. Consciousness (feeling) in a non-subjective experience form would not be a "conscious mental state."

All subjective experience is constituted of consciousness (feeling), but not all consciousness (feeling) constitutes subjective experience.
 
This paper is exceptionally insightful regarding subjective-objective relations and the structure of consciousness, and it is very clearly written:

Phenomenal Objectivity and Phenomenal Intentionality
In Defense of a Kantian Account
Farid Masrour

https://philpapers.org/archive/MASPOA-4.pdf

Abstract: "Perceptual experience has the phenomenal character of encountering a mind-independent objective world. What we encounter in perceptual experience is not presented to us as a state of our own mind. Rather, we seem to encounter facts, objects, and properties that are independent from our mind. In short, perceptual experience has phenomenal objectivity . Phenomenal objectivity distinguishes perceptual experience from those types of experience, for example mood experiences, that have the phenomenal character of presenting to one only the states of one’s own mind. An account of phenomenal objectivity would be useful to believers in phenomenal intentionality—a form of intentionality that is constituted by phenomenality. This chapter proposes and defends a Kantian account of phenomenal objectivity.

Introduction

Some experiences, such as moods, emotions, nausea, and dizziness present our own states to us. We can call these experiences self-presenting experiences. 1 In contrast to self-presenting experiences, perceptual experiences typically present external things to us. We can say that perceptual experience belongs to the class of other-presenting experiences. 2

The distinction between self-presenting and other-presenting experiences is, in my view, a phenomenological distinction. Self-presenting and other-presenting experiences differ not only with respect to what they typically present, but also with respect to their phenomenal character. 3 There is a general phenomenological feature in virtue of whose presence/absence experiences are other-presenting/self-presenting. I call this feature phenomenal objectivity. The claim that perceptual experiences typically have phenomenal objectivity is a substantive claim and I shall say more in its defense later in the chapter. At this stage, however, I shall take it for granted. 4

This chapter outlines and defends a phenomenological account of phenomenal objectivity. By this I mean an account that offers a reduction of phenomenal objectivity to allegedly more fundamental phenomenal features. 5 I believe that this account would be beneficial for the phenomenal intentionalist. Let me explain why.

Phenomenal intentionalists typically hold that there is a kind of intentionality that is constituted by phenomenality. 6 This idea implies that the conditions that a state needs to satisfy in order to count as a state with phenomenal intentionality are phenomenal conditions. One task for the phenomenal intentionalist is thus to provide an account of the phenomenal conditions that constitute phenomenal intentionality. We can call this the constitution problem. One way to solve the constitution problem is to equate the conditions for phenomenal intentionality with the conditions for phenomenal objectivity. It is easy to see why one might be tempted to do so. Note that experiences with phenomenal objectivity have other-presenting phenomenal character. One might regard this feature as constituting the core of phenomenal intentionality. It is in virtue of having this phenomenal directedness toward the other that experience has phenomenal intentionality. So it is in virtue of having phenomenal objectivity that experience has phenomenal intentionality. Thus a theory that explains the phenomenal conditions in virtue of which experience has phenomenal objectivity would thereby explain the phenomenal conditions in virtue of which experience acquires phenomenal intentionality. In this construal, explaining phenomenal objectivity would be at the core of any phenomenal intentionality research program by providing a solution to the constitution problem.

The phenomenal intentionalist might, however, refrain from equating the phenomenal-intentional with the phenomenal-objective. The phenomenal intentionalist might hold that some states that possess phenomenal intentionality lack phenomenal objectivity. For example, in some views, self-presenting states, such as mood experiences, display phenomenal intentionality. One who assumes this will not look at a theory of phenomenal objectivity as a theory of phenomenal intentionality. Nevertheless, she can regard such a theory as a theory of other-presenting phenomenal intentionality. This theory would not explain the phenomenal conditions that are constitutive of phenomenal intentionality. Rather, it would explain the phenomenal conditions in virtue of which phenomenal intentionality is differentiated into other-representing and self-representing types. We can call the problem of providing an account of the phenomenal conditions in virtue of which phenomenal intentionality gets divided into its main types the division problem. Assuming that self-presenting and other-presenting forms of phenomenal intentionality are its main types, we can conclude that a theory of phenomenal objectivity would solve the division problem.

An account of phenomenal objectivity can thus be beneficial to the phenomenal intentionalists by solving either the constitution problem or the division problem. I hold that a theory of phenomenal objectivity solves the constitution problem. But for the purposes of this chapter I shall not defend this idea against the alternative reading, which claims that a theory of phenomenal objectivity solves only the division problem. The reader can decide how she or he wants to look at this issue. In either choice, an account of phenomenal objectivity is important for the phenomenal intentionalist.

The view that I will be offering in this chapter is primarily inspired by my reading of Kant’s Critique of Pure Reason. Thus, I regard it as a Kantian view. The next section explains the view and clarifies why I call it Kantian. The second section connects the view to contemporary psychology of perception and provides a preliminary motivation for it. The last section provides an argument for the view. In the remainder part of this section, I say more about what I mean by a phenomenological account.

The account offered in this chapter aims at answering the following question: what are the phenomenal facts in virtue of which perceptual experience has phenomenal objectivity? This question is a phenomenological question. In saying this, I want to insist that an answer to this question should appeal to phenomenological facts. For example, an explanation in terms of the sub-personal mechanisms that distinguish experiences with phenomenal objectivity from those that lack it would not do. Such an answer, insofar as it leaves out matters at the personal level, is not a phenomenological answer. 7 Similarly, one could not answer this question by appealing to the fact that the brain processes that underlie perceptual experience track external facts while the brain processes that underlie other experiences, such as emotions, only track the conditions of the brain and the body. For appealing to tracking relations is appealing to facts that fall outside what is given at the personal level. In general, a phenomenological question seeks an answer at the personal or phenomenological level. Thus, it can only be satisfactorily answered by appealing to how things are given in, or to, phenomenal consciousness. 8

Obviously, such remarks do not offer a positive characterization of a phenomenological answer. They only explain what would not count as one. So let me say a few words by way of a positive characterization. As I’m using the term, phenomenological answers are given in terms of instantiations of phenomenal properties. Such answers sometimes appeal to the instantiation of primitive monadic phenomenal properties. For example, if you ask how visual experience presents redness, a short answer could be that it does so in virtue of instantiating a monadic phenomenal property that some call phenomenal red. If one is a primitivist about phenomenal red then one’s phenomenological explanation ends here, because in the primitivist account the most fundamental phenomenal fact that explains the phenomenal character associated with experiences of red is the instantiation of phenomenal redness.

However, phenomenological explanations can sometimes be reductive. For example, one might reduce phenomenal redness to more primitive phenomenal properties such as phenomenal hue, saturation, and brightness. Such a reductivist would hold that phenomenal hue, saturation, and brightness are more fundamental than phenomenal redness. Thus the instantiation of phenomenal redness is metaphysically explained in terms of instantiations of these more fundamental phenomenal properties. This would be a case where a phenomenological explanation is informative for being reductive.

Other examples of this strategy are Hume’s reduction of the impression of necessary connection to the “determination of the mind” to move from one idea (or impression) to another and Berkeley’s view, which according to some commentators, reduced experiences of spatial relations to expectations involving tactile or proprioceptive experiences. 9

The account that I shall be offering here is reductive in this sense. I shall argue that phenomenal objectivity is constituted by the instantiation of more fundamental properties. Explaining what these properties are requires some stage setting. This is what I shall do in the next section.

1. The Kantian Thesis

There is strong textual evidence that a decade before the publication of the first Critique Kant had become interested in what we nowadays call the problem of intentionality. In a famous letter to Herz, he writes about this problem and its significance:

"I noticed that I still lacked something essential, something that in my long metaphysical studies I, as well as others, had failed to pay attention to and that, in fact, constitutes the key to the whole secret of hitherto still obscure metaphysics. I asked myself, namely: What is the ground of the relation of that in us which we call ‘representation’ to the object?" (Correspondence, Letter to Herz, 1772, emphasis mine)

Kant’s formulation of the problem of metaphysics changes in the first Critique. There, he describes the problem as that of explaining the possibility of synthetic a priori cognition. Arguably this change in formulation does not mark a radical change in Kant’s conception of the problem. Rather, it indicates his realization that a solution to the problem will also show how we can have a type of cognition that is both a priori (independent from experience) and synthetic (not determined only by conceptual relations).

There are still passages in the Critique, however, where Kant explicitly talks about the problem of the relationship between representations and objects. For example, in the Second Analogy, after remarking that pure representations are “inner determinations of our mind in this or that temporal relation,” he asks:

"Now how do we come to post an object for these representations, or ascribe to their subjective reality, as modifications, some sort of objective reality?" (CPR, A197/B243)

The answer comes in the same paragraph:

"If we investigate what new characteristic is given to our representations by the relation to an object, . . . we find that it does nothing beyond making the combination of representations necessary in a certain way, and subjecting them to a rule; and conversely that objective significance is conferred on our representations only insofar as a certain order in their temporal relation is necessary." (CPR, A197/B243) 10

Kant’s question is how representations that are mere modifications of the mind acquire “objective significance.” His answer seems to be that representations acquire their objective significance in virtue of necessary temporal connections between them. In the Schematism section that precedes the Analogies, Kant has already argued that this necessary temporal connection depends on synthetic activities that somehow involve the schemas of the pure concepts of understanding or categories.

My contention is that both Kant’s question and his answer can be read in a phenomenological-cum-psychological way. Accordingly, to ask how representations acquire “objective significance” is to ask how representations acquire phenomenal objectivity, and to say that “objective significance is conferred to our representations only insofar as a certain order in their temporal relation is necessary” is to say that representations acquire their objective significance in virtue of having the phenomenology of being combined in time in accordance with schematic rules. Schemas, in the interpretation that I wish to propose, embody the rules that guide the mental activity of synthesis. This activity unifi es the members of the manifold of representations in time, and the phenomenology of combining mental representations in time in accordance with schematic rules is what confers objective significance to our representations which without this will be mere modifications of the subjective states of the mind and thus at best only self-presenting.

This interpretation can of course be challenged. First, Kant’s notions of objective significance and the necessary combinations of representations can both be interpreted non-phenomenologically. Second, the relationship between synthetic activities and the combination of representations can be understood in different ways. Should we understand Kant’s idea of combination as a by-product of an act of synthesis, or should we understand combination as identical with an ongoing activity? In the first interpretation, acts of synthesis produce a complex relational structure in our representational manifold, where the relationship between the act and the structure is analogous to the relationship between the activity of building and the structure that results from it. In the second interpretation, synthetic activity constitutes the relational structure in the manifold. In this view representations are related to each other in virtue of the fact that an ongoing synthetic activity in time somehow incorporates them. My proposed interpretation attributes to Kant the second type of view.

There are also important interpretational puzzles about Kant’s account of schemas. In some passages, Kant writes as though schemas are rules that ground the activities of synthesis. 11 It is tempting to rely on these passages and equate schemas with a type of representation that guides the activity that constitutes or produces combinations among other representations in time. However, there are passages in which Kant seems to equate schemas with the structure that is produced or constituted by synthetic activities. 12 These passages suggest that “schema” is just Kant’s fancy term for talking about combination in time. My interpretation attributes to Kant the view that schemas are representations that guide activities of synthesis.

A related puzzling issue is the relationship between schemas and concepts, in particular the relationship between transcendental schemas and the categories. Before the Schematism section Kant often speaks as though the categories furnish the rules that guide the activities of synthesis. However, in the Schematism section this role seems to be assigned to transcendental schemas. 13 There are at least three ways to resolve this tension. One option is to equate the transcendental schemas with the categories. The other is to equate transcendental schemas with the structure that results from or is constituted by the activity of synthesis and assign pure concepts the role of the rules that guide these activities. A third option is to equate schemas with the guiding rules and interpret Kant’s earlier talk about the relation between the categories and the rules as presupposing schematic mediation. Here, my interpretational choice has been the third one.

Another important feature of Kant’s view is his idea that schemas are neither sensible nor intellectual. In this view, a schema is a specific type of representation that is intermediary between conceptual and non-conceptual representations and belongs to the faculty of imagination. 14 Kant’s account of imagination has been the subject of intense exegetical controversy partly because of its apparent incompatibility with his division of mental faculties into sensibility, understanding, and reason. I want to claim here, again without argument, that Kant’s notion of a schematic representation can be equated with perceptually encapsulated innate knowledge. My interpretation attributes to Kant a set of phenomenological and psychological theses based on the mentioned interpretational choices. All of these interpretational choices require careful exegetical defense. However, this chapter is not the place to do so. Thus, rather than claiming that the view that I am describing is Kant’s, I shall call it a Kantian view.

My main aim is to defend the phenomenological component of the Kantian view. As a first approximation, the thesis is that phenomenal objectivity is constituted by the phenomenology of a necessary combination of representations in time. I have explained what I mean by phenomenal objectivity before. Let me use an example to explain how I understand the idea of the phenomenology of a necessary combination of representations. . . . ."

https://philpapers.org/archive/MASPOA-4.pdf
 
I would say that a "conscious mental state" is akin to subjective experience. Consciousness (feeling) in a non-subjective experience form would not be a "conscious mental state."

All subjective experience is constituted of consciousness (feeling), but not all consciousness (feeling) constitutes subjective experience.

All subjective experience is constituted of consciousness (feeling), but not all consciousness (feeling) constitutes subjective experience.

What would "consciousness (feeling) in a non-subjective experience form" be? What would a "non-subjective experience form" be? What is experience without a subject?


Panexperientialism: Experience and the subject

"Despite the apparent misdirectedness of Kind’s argument, I think there is some intuitive appeal to what she calls “the problem of the subject and the problem of experiential unity” in relation to panexperientialism. Our experiences are necessarily unified and belong to a subject, so how on earth can this be reconciled with talk of experiences at the molecular or subatomic level?

Some assistance in this matter can be found in this link is dead paper, another one by Galen Strawson, on the relation between an experience, the subject of the experience and the content of the experience. It’s been too long since I studied formal logic for me to follow the paper completely but I found a lot of resonances in it with what Whitehead had to say.

*One of the premises that Strawson starts with is that it is a necessary truth that “there cannot be an experience without a subject”, because experience is necessarily for someone or something.

Strawson moves on to distinguish various conceptions of the subject. Roughly explained, these are the thick subject (human beings or animals considered as a whole), the traditional inner conception of the subject (the persisting self) and the thin subject.
According to the conception of the thin subject, which is Strawson’s focus, a subject of experience does not and cannot exist unless it is having experience at that time.
Strawson notes that thin subjects are not an assumption but a “terminological rule” that picks out whatever portion of reality constitutes the existence of an experiencing subject.

Whilst thin subjects are unitary wholes, longevity and sustained persistence in time are not essential to them. Strawson speculates that they last for a maximum of three seconds in the human case. He also contends that thin subjects could be conceived as objects, as long as objects themselves are thought of as dynamic processes and matter itself is thought of as “process-stuff”. Strawson suggests that our experience consists of “one transient subject-constituting (and equally experience-constituting) synergy of process-stuff after another”. Thus, on this view rather than a persisting inner self there is a constant succession of thins subjects/experiences of short duration which together gives rise to one’s “stream of consciousness”.

Strawson goes on, after arguing at length, to say that the relationship between the experience, the subject and the content of the experience is one of identity. The existence of the experience is the existence of the subject which is also the content of the experience. Although experiences are necessarily “for” a subject , the two are in fact the same (to my mind, the term “subject” could therefore be redundant but I think this a terminological issue which I needn’t address here).

I won’t attempt to simplify Strawson’s arguments any more, but I think the conclusion he reaches, like the conclusion of Whitehead and others, is one which can address the intuitive qualms which surface when one considers talk of subjects and unified experience at the level of subatomic particles or below.

At such level there is no need to contemplate a persisting self which is the subject of continuous experience. Rather, the conception of brief, discrete processes or occasions of experience in which there is no subject distinct from the experience seems to me to be intuitively acceptable."

I think this is the paper:

What is the relation between an experience, its subject, and its content

In contrast, your view posits a "non-subjective experience form" (NSEF - it's dangerous to give you an acronym!) as a substrate.
 
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All subjective experience is constituted of consciousness (feeling), but not all consciousness (feeling) constitutes subjective experience.

What would "consciousness (feeling) in a non-subjective experience form" be? What would a "non-subjective experience form" be? What is experience without a subject?

Panexperientialism: Experience and the subject

"Despite the apparent misdirectedness of Kind’s argument, I think there is some intuitive appeal to what she calls “the problem of the subject and the problem of experiential unity” in relation to panexperientialism. Our experiences are necessarily unified and belong to a subject, so how on earth can this be reconciled with talk of experiences at the molecular or subatomic level?

Some assistance in this matter can be found in this link is dead paper, another one by Galen Strawson, on the relation between an experience, the subject of the experience and the content of the experience. It’s been too long since I studied formal logic for me to follow the paper completely but I found a lot of resonances in it with what Whitehead had to say.

*One of the premises that Strawson starts with is that it is a necessary truth that “there cannot be an experience without a subject”, because experience is necessarily for someone or something.

Strawson moves on to distinguish various conceptions of the subject. Roughly explained, these are the thick subject (human beings or animals considered as a whole), the traditional inner conception of the subject (the persisting self) and the thin subject.

According to the conception of the thin subject, which is Strawson’s focus, a subject of experience does not and cannot exist unless it is having experience at that time.

Strawson notes that thin subjects are not an assumption but a “terminological rule” that picks out whatever portion of reality constitutes the existence of an experiencing subject.

Whilst thin subjects are unitary wholes, longevity and sustained persistence in time are not essential to them. Strawson speculates that they last for a maximum of three seconds in the human case. He also contends that thin subjects could be conceived as objects, as long as objects themselves are thought of as dynamic processes and matter itself is thought of as “process-stuff”. Strawson suggests that our experience consists of “one transient subject-constituting (and equally experience-constituting) synergy of process-stuff after another”. Thus, on this view rather than a persisting inner self there is a constant succession of thins subjects/experiences of short duration which together gives rise to one’s “stream of consciousness”.

Strawson goes on, after arguing at length, to say that the relationship between the experience, the subject and the content of the experience is one of identity. The existence of the experience is the existence of the subject which is also the content of the experience. Although experiences are necessarily “for” a subject , the two are in fact the same (to my mind, the term “subject” could therefore be redundant but I think this a terminological issue which I needn’t address here).

I won’t attempt to simplify Strawson’s arguments any more, but I think the conclusion he reaches, like the conclusion of Whitehead and others, is one which can address the intuitive qualms which surface when one considers talk of subjects and unified experience at the level of subatomic particles or below.

At such level there is no need to contemplate a persisting self which is the subject of continuous experience. Rather, the conception of brief, discrete processes or occasions of experience in which there is no subject distinct from the experience seems to me to be intuitively acceptable."

In contrast, your view posits a "non-subjective experience form" (NSEF - it's dangerous to give you an acronym!) as a substrate.
Physiological change y within the organism presents the organism with a GUI of external stimulus Y?

The important thing is (1) perception involves the organism undergoing a physiological change, and (2) this change corresponds to an external stimulus (thus it does not fully capture the stimulus and is distinct from the stimulus).

Thus perception (physiological change within the organism) is a subset within the super set of reality.

I agree with Steve's objections early in and at the end of what appear to be @Soupie's lengthy comments in this post. The quoted material from @Soupie in this post seems to be transcription from a number of S's posts, so before I respond to all this I will c&p separately the text of what appear to be statements already made in various places in our current discussion. Not just now, but later tonight.
 
I agree with Steve's objections early in and at the end of what appear to be @Soupie's lengthy comments in this post. The quoted material from @Soupie in this post seems to be transcription from a number of S's posts, so before I respond to all this I will c&p separately the text of what appear to be statements already made in various places in our current discussion. Not just now, but later tonight.

I found the Strawson paper and linked it. At issue, I think is @Soupie 's claim that a non-subjective experience form (NSEF) is the substrate from which subjective experience arises.
 
I found the Strawson paper and linked it. At issue, I think is @Soupie 's claim that a non-subjective experience form (NSEF) is the substrate from which subjective experience arises.

Yes, I think you correctly describe @Soupie's claim, and I'm very glad you found a link to the missing Strawson paper. In coming back this morning to your previous post I realized that what you quoted at length there was not commentary by @Soupie but the bulk of the Panexperientialism blog at

Panexperientialism: Experience and the subject

I'll read with interest the Strawson paper (draft) you found, and look forward to hearing responses to the paper I linked yesterday by Farid Masmour on "Phenomenal Objectivity and Phenomenal Intentionality."

https://philpapers.org/archive/MASPOA-4.pdf
 
Quoting again from the Masmour paper to suggest again its responsiveness to questions we are pursuing here currently:

". . . 1. The Kantian Thesis

There is strong textual evidence that a decade before the publication of the first Critique Kant had become interested in what we nowadays call the problem of intentionality. In a famous letter to Herz, he writes about this problem and its significance:

"I noticed that I still lacked something essential, something that in my long metaphysical studies I, as well as others, had failed to pay attention to and that, in fact, constitutes the key to the whole secret of hitherto still obscure metaphysics. I asked myself, namely: What is the ground of the relation of that in us which we call ‘representation’ to the object?" (Correspondence, Letter to Herz, 1772, emphasis mine)

Kant’s formulation of the problem of metaphysics changes in the first Critique. There, he describes the problem as that of explaining the possibility of synthetic a priori cognition. Arguably this change in formulation does not mark a radical change in Kant’s conception of the problem. Rather, it indicates his realization that a solution to the problem will also show how we can have a type of cognition that is both a priori (independent from experience) and synthetic (not determined only by conceptual relations).

There are still passages in the Critique, however, where Kant explicitly talks about the problem of the relationship between representations and objects. For example, in the Second Analogy, after remarking that pure representations are “inner determinations of our mind in this or that temporal relation,” he asks:

"Now how do we come to post an object for these representations, or ascribe to their subjective reality, as modifications, some sort of objective reality?" (CPR, A197/B243)

The answer comes in the same paragraph:

"If we investigate what new characteristic is given to our representations by the relation to an object, . . . we find that it does nothing beyond making the combination of representations necessary in a certain way, and subjecting them to a rule; and conversely that objective significance is conferred on our representations only insofar as a certain order in their temporal relation is necessary." (CPR, A197/B243) 10

Kant’s question is how representations that are mere modifications of the mind acquire “objective significance.” His answer seems to be that representations acquire their objective significance in virtue of necessary temporal connections between them. In the Schematism section that precedes the Analogies, Kant has already argued that this necessary temporal connection depends on synthetic activities that somehow involve the schemas of the pure concepts of understanding or categories.

My contention is that both Kant’s question and his answer can be read in a phenomenological-cum-psychological way. Accordingly, to ask how representations acquire “objective significance” is to ask how representations acquire phenomenal objectivity, and to say that “objective significance is conferred to our representations only insofar as a certain order in their temporal relation is necessary” is to say that representations acquire their objective significance in virtue of having the phenomenology of being combined in time in accordance with schematic rules. Schemas, in the interpretation that I wish to propose, embody the rules that guide the mental activity of synthesis. This activity unifies the members of the manifold of representations in time, and the phenomenology of combining mental representations in time in accordance with schematic rules is what confers objective significance to our representations which without this will be mere modifications of the subjective states of the mind and thus at best only self-presenting. . . . ."
 
I found the Strawson paper and linked it. At issue, I think is @Soupie 's claim that a non-subjective experience form (NSEF) is the substrate from which subjective experience arises.
@smcder @Constance

I agree with both of you that the concept of "non-subjective experience" is oxymoronic (and some might just go with moronic).

Trying to separate subjective and experience is a bad idea. However keep in mind that I'm still stumbling for the best wording, and there are so many meanings for consciousness that confusion is inevitable.

I think the terms I like best are noumenal and phenomenal. I hesitate to use them because they are Kants terms and I believe they already have multiple meanings, so me using them would just create more confusion. Having said that, I do think they are the easiest to grok.

Let's try it.

Noumenal = mind-independent, consciousness (feeling) as substrate

Phenomenal = phenomenal consciousness; subjective experience; conscious mental states; etc.

Finally, I want to circle back around to experience and subjective experience:

I love the autopoeitic model. It is the best and most elegant model I know of (not saying much) to explain how subjectivity could (weakly) emerge within physical, 3rd person reality.

However, the model cannot and does not provide a mechanistic explanation, nor a functional role, for consciousness (feeling).

However, we assume that subjectity involves experience, subjective experience. So whence the experience? To me, this is an indication that consciousness (feeling) precedes the emergence of subjectivity.

Again, I agree that "non-subjective experience" is a clunky, confusing concept, but by using it, I was trying to capture the concept that consciousness (feeling) must precede the emergence of subjectivity.
 
Extract from the Strawson paper [draft]. (Question: did he ever publish this paper?)

". . .
3 Terms and assumptions

To introduce the notion of a thin subject is not—not yet—to make any assertion about the nature of reality that can be sensibly disputed. It is simply to introduce a certain way of talking about something whose existence is not in question. The way of talking may be disliked or thought unhelpful. Attachments to linguistic and theoretical habits can be as intense as attachment to dietary prohibitions, and can incorporate a conviction that other habits (of linguistic or theoretical idiom, or diet) are intrinsically wrong. True—but the phenomenon I refer to in speaking of thin subjects is indisputably real and utterly commonplace. It is the subject of experience understood in precisely the sense in which it is true to say that there is a subject of experience in the L-reality only when (and whenever) there is experience in the L-reality. To claim that this is an unnatural or perverse way to section reality even when doing metaphysics is simply to reveal one’s habituation to those natural notions of the subject of experience that allow that a subject of experience can persist through times of experiencelessness. The thick or traditional use is certainly more basic in ordinary thought, but this is no reason to disallow the thin use.

The existence of thin subjects is not an assumption, then. I am making certain assumptions: I have assumed that materialism is true, and I am now going to assume that human thin subjects are relatively short-lived entities. I am going to take it, in other words (and contrary to Descartes), that it is an empirical fact about the human process of consciousness that it is non-continuous in a certain way. I believe, in fact, that it is non-continuous in such a way that there are many subjects of experience in the L-reality in any normal waking day. Others, perhaps, believe that it is continuous in any waking day but interrupted at night.

An outright temporal gap in consciousness in the L-reality is obviously sufficient for non-continuity, but is not necessary, on the present view: an experientially unitary period of experience or ‘pulse’ of thought (in William James’s terminology) may succeed another in a temporally seamless way and yet count as a discontinuity for the purposes of counting subjects.[24]

Let me also register my view (it is as much a terminological decision as an assumption) that subjects of experience are happily thought of as objects, even when they are thinly understood, as here. Let me make this conditional: if one is going to talk of objects at all in one’s metaphysics, then it is I think not hard to show that thin subjects have at least as good a claim to be called objects as anything else.[25] For very briefly, all concrete reality is substance (this view will be supported by the discussion of the object/property distinction in §9); [ii] whatever objects or individual substances are, they are physical unities of a certain sort; and [iii] there are no more indisputable physical unities than subjects of experience.[26]

That said, I think matter is best thought of as what one might call ‘process-stuff’, and that all physical objects are best thought of as processes, even if the converse is not true. And I take it this to be true on a three-dimensionalist (3D) view of objects as much as on a four-dimensionalist (4D) view.[27] We have to combat an intense staticism in our thought about matter and objects. Matter is essentially dynamic: essentially in time and essentially changeful.[28] All reality is process, as Whitehead was moved to observe by his study of twentieth-century physics, and as Heracleitus and others proposed long ago. Perhaps we would do better to call matter ‘time-matter’, or at least ‘matter-in-time’, so that we never for a moment forget its essential temporality. We think of matter as essentially extended, but we tend to think only of extension in space—something that can, we intuitively feel, be given to us as a whole at an instant. But space and time are interdependent. They are aspects of spacetime, and all concrete spatial extension is extension in spacetime.[29]

It follows from this interdependence alone, I think, that there is no ontologically weighty distinction between objects and processes given which objects are not truly said to be processes, although there is for many purposes a perfectly respectable distinction to be made between them. ‘From this alone’: there is in fact no need to invoke the spacetime of relativity theory, for even if relativity theory is false in its account of the essential interdependence of space and time there is no metaphysically defensible conception of a physical object—a ‘spatio-temporal continuant’, as philosophers say—that allows one to distinguish validly between objects and processes by saying that the latter are essentially dynamic or changeful phenomena in some way in which the former are not.[30] The source of the idea that there might be some metaphysically deep distinction between objects and processes lies in natural everyday habits of thought that are ordinarily harmless and indeed useful, and yet are disabling—almost perfectly unhelpful—in certain theoretical contexts. It seems to me that we philosophers continue to be very severely hampered by this habit of thought even when we have, in the frame of theoretical discussion, fully agreed and, as we think, deeply appreciated, that objects are entirely creatures of time, process-entities.[31] Later on I will pick up a similar point about the distinction between objects and properties.

Certainly the brevity of human thin subjects should not count against their claim to be objects, and, hence, physical objects. ‘The prejudice that the real is the persistent must be abandoned’,[32]and the everyday human temporal scale has no special validity. If W-particles and Z-particles are fundamental particles then they will presumably count as objects in almost any serious materialist metaphysics that countenances objects at all, and they are considerably more ephemeral entities than thin subjects; and 10–34th of a second, a very short time by human standards, ‘seems by the standards of early-universe physics as interminable as an indifferent production of Lohengrin’.[33]

Thin subjects certainly exist, then, and are to be counted among the objects, on the present scheme of things; although objects are processes, wholly constituted out of time-matter, process-stuff, and although ‘subjectivity’ may turn out to be helpful alternative to ‘subject’, in certain contexts, by the time I have finished. I take it, as a materialist, that all thin subjects are entirely constituted out of process-stuff in the brain. Cerebral process-stuff is constantly being recruited or corralled into one transient subject-constituting (and, equally, experience-constituting) piece or synergy of process-stuff after another. This, I propose, is what the conscious life of a human being consists in. (I will say more about ‘synergy’ shortly.)

My (empirical) bet is that thin subjects last for a maximum of about three seconds, in the human case,[34] with many being much shorter. I think that there is always some complete interruption of consciousness in any longer period of time, although this is not phenomenologically accessible to most people in normal life. There may either be a straightforward temporal gap, as already remarked, or there may be a new experience, with a new subject, following seamlessly on from the previous one. The next experience may even overlap the previous one temporally, as one recruitment or neurons gathers pace and peaks in consciousness before the previous one has died to nothing.[35]There is no particular difficulty in the idea (whether or not it happens is an empirical issue).

These experiences—these experiences-with-subjects—are I propose primitive unities (they are of course physical unities, on the materialist view). They are ‘indecomposable unities’, in William James’s terms, in the sense that no subpart of one such experience-with-subject can be said to be itself a whole experience-with-subject.[36] One experience-pulse means one subject. If overlap of the sort just imagined occurs in the L-reality then there are for a brief time two experiences-with-subjects in the L-reality; this is what the consciousness of Louis consists in, at this time. But neither of the two (thin) subjects that are numerically distinguishable at time t on this view of experiences as successive neuronal recruitments is aware of there being two subjects at t; nor is Louis the whole human being considered as a (thick) subject of experience aware of this at t. The phenomenology of experience may be and usually is of continuous experience.[37]

I will elaborate this view as I go along. Let me stress that ‘thin’ carries no implication of brevity. The basic definition of thin subjects allows that they might last for hours or days, even if they cannot do so in our case. In some creatueres they might cease to exist only when very rare periods of complete experiencelessness occur—only in dreamless sleep, say. One could even suppose, with Descartes (on one reading), that thin subjects are immortal.

—So what is the relation of a thin subject to a human being? What is the relation of this putative thin subject s in the L-reality to Louis the human being?

I take it that it is a completely straightforward part-whole relation, like the relation between Louis the whole human being and one of his toes or transient spots. s is a spatiotemporally bounded piece of process-stuff which one may call ps, Louis considered as a whole is also a spatiotemporally bounded piece of process-stuff which one may call pL, and ps is ontically distinct from pL in the way in which any (proper) part of an object that is itself correctly thought of as an object (a cell, a hand, a finger, depending on your view) is ontically distinct from the larger object of which it is a part. s is also not ontically distinct from Louis in any sense in which such a part of Louis is not ontically distinct from Louis.[38]

I take [s = ps] to be a simple identity claim, not a constitutive identity claim—if, that is, a constitutive identity claim is one that allows that the constituter can possibly exist in the absence of the constitutee, or conversely. On this view, neither ps nor s can exist without the other—unlike the statue of Pegasus and the lump of bronze out of which it is made (to take a familiar example), on most accounts of the relation between them. s could not possibly have consisted of anything other than the particular synergy of process-stuff ps and ps could not possibly have existed without s existing.[39]

In the same spirit I take it that the identity conditions of subject-constituting synergies of process-stuff are a strict function of their parts, in whatever sense they have parts: add or subtract one single subject-constituting ‘particle’ or ‘string’ or ‘field’ or ‘physical simple’ or ultimate, as I will call the ultimate constituents of reality, whatever they are, and you no longer have the same synergy or the same subject.[40]

This decision runs contrary to common intuitions about the conditions under which something (e.g a subject of experience) can be correctly said to remain the same thing. I will consider some counterfactuals later.

I hope the word ‘synergy’ does some work against the staticist tendencies of our natural picture of objects. It is not wrong, nor even particularly unclear, to say that s (or e) consists of a piece or bit or segment of process-stuff, for the essentially temporal, dynamic nature of what is in question has already been strongly marked by the term ‘process-stuff’. But a piece of process-stuff could be dynamic in every part (every piece of physical process-stuff is dynamic in every part, every atom is essentially in internal uproar) without necessarily being synergetic in any very interesting way, let alone synergetic in the way required for it to be a subject or an experience.[41] It is the synergy of process-stuff ps that constitutesis—s. It is not as if the piece of process-stuff, involving 1010ultimates, say, already wholly constitutes s, and it is then a further fact about ps that it is synergetic in a certain way. It is a portion of synergetic process-stuff that constitutes/is s—the physical object that is the subject of experience. . . . ."
 
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Extract from the Strawson paper [draft]. (Question: did he ever publish this paper?)

The answer is yes; he published it twice, once in the revised version at the philpapers link below [with Abstract] and again as "substantially revised" in his book Real Materialism and Other Essays (2008).

First published version described here:

Galen Strawson, What is the relation between an experience, the subject of the experience, and the content of the experience? - PhilPapers

"Abstract: This version of this paper has been superseded by a substantially revised version in G. Strawson, Real Materialism and Other Essays (OUP 2008) I take 'content' in a natural internalist way to refer to occurrent mental content. I introduce a 'thin' or ‘live’ notion of the subject according to which a subject of experience cannot exist unless there is an experience for it to be the subject of. I then argue, first, that in the case of a particular experience E, its content C, and its (thin) subject S, [C ↔ E ↔ S]; and, second, that the metaphysical fact that underlies this (strong modal) equivalence is in fact identity: [E = S = C]. I suggest that the effort of thought required to grasp this is deeply revealing of the nature of reality. On the way I raise a doubt about the viability of the traditional object/property distinction."

Is anyone here so taken with Strawson's speculations in the draft we have that they think it's necessary for us to seek out an online copy of the most recent version published in his collection of papers? If so, I hope it will be found and posted, though I'm not so impressed by the unpublished draft we're working with that I plan to search out an online copy of the book chapter version. I also wonder whether Strawson's core hypothesis might have changed since the publication of the book version in 2008. There is a vast literature on the 'thickness'/'thinness' issue. I'll link a few more papers on this subject.
 
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Re 'thickness/thinness' of consciousness and its contents, here is a paper that might be useful as we begin to deal with this issue:

Richard Hine, Attention as Experience: Through ‘Thick’ & ‘Thin’

Extract: "...Leaving aside any further worries about theory neutrality, then, and assuming that we’re on the same page, so to speak, regarding the phenomenon under discussion, I propose that we use ‘conscious’and ‘experience’ interchangeably, thereby dropping the modifier ‘conscious’ from ’conscious experience’. But what should we say about‘awareness’?

Schwitzgebel argues that this is potentially more problematic for our project, equivocating, as it does, between, ‘an epistemic sense of “awareness”… [and]… a phenomenal, experiential sense’. . . . ."

Attention as experience: Through 'thick' and 'thin'

Hine develops his paper in terms of a critique of a paper or papers by Schwitzgebel, which we should also find and read.

Farid Masrour also has a paper concerning the thinness/thickness issue entitled "Is Perceptual Phenomenology Thin?" noted at this philpapers link:

Farid Masrour, Is Perceptual Phenomenology Thin? - PhilPapers

I've written to Masrour to ask if he will make this paper available at academia.edu since it's not currently available online.

There's much more to explore concerning this critically important issue through further links provided at philpapers.org from the pages linked above.
 
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Farid Masrour, Is Perceptual Phenomenology Thin? - PhilPapers

I've written to Masrour to ask if he will make this paper available at academic/edu since it's not currently available online.

Masrour has emailed me back with a link to all his published papers to date at wordpress. Here's the link to the paper on 'thinness' of perceptual phenomenology:

https://fmasrour.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/thin.pdf

Here's the wordpress link to the whole set of papers, published and in process:

Papers

Link to Masrour's CV:

https://fmasrour.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/masrour-cv1.pdf
 
@smcder @Constance

I agree with both of you that the concept of "non-subjective experience" is oxymoronic (and some might just go with moronic).

Trying to separate subjective and experience is a bad idea. However keep in mind that I'm still stumbling for the best wording, and there are so many meanings for consciousness that confusion is inevitable.

I think the terms I like best are noumenal and phenomenal. I hesitate to use them because they are Kants terms and I believe they already have multiple meanings, so me using them would just create more confusion. Having said that, I do think they are the easiest to grok.

Let's try it.

Noumenal = mind-independent, consciousness (feeling) as substrate

Phenomenal = phenomenal consciousness; subjective experience; conscious mental states; etc.

Finally, I want to circle back around to experience and subjective experience:

I love the autopoeitic model. It is the best and most elegant model I know of (not saying much) to explain how subjectivity could (weakly) emerge within physical, 3rd person reality.

However, the model cannot and does not provide a mechanistic explanation, nor a functional role, for consciousness (feeling).

However, we assume that subjectity involves experience, subjective experience. So whence the experience? To me, this is an indication that consciousness (feeling) precedes the emergence of subjectivity.

Again, I agree that "non-subjective experience" is a clunky, confusing concept, but by using it, I was trying to capture the concept that consciousness (feeling) must precede the emergence of subjectivity.

"I was trying to capture the concept that consciousness (feeling) must precede the emergence of subjectivity."

OK, let's start there because I think what you are saying now is no more logically possible than saying "non-runner running" or that running must precede the emergence of runners. So maybe you have something else in mind.

When you claim "that consciousness (feeling) must precede the emergence of subjectivity." what is it that is going on in your head? We have get at a conception that you can communicate when you make this claim.
 
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