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Consciousness and the Paranormal — Part 10

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Does a sentient being know that it is sentient? I think the term is being used quite loose. If something is aware, what is it aware of? or what is a conscious thing conscious of? I assume sentience relates to sensing... sensing the world, or having a sense of the world.. two very different things.. not sure sentience is necessarily feeling the world..
The Emmeche paper looks like its up my street :) Thanks for the link @smcder
Good stuff.

I tried to capture this quandary w/ my post above. We can say there are organisms/robots that "sense" the world—bc they behave as such.

But when can we know that an organism/robot senses the world in the sense we're after—phenomenally/mentally?

Question for @Pharoah : can a fully determined, automata, mechanistic organism ever be said to have a mind? If so, why would it need a mind?

Does mind begin where mechanism ends?
 
Does a sentient being know that it is sentient? I think the term is being used quite loose. If something is aware, what is it aware of? or what is a conscious thing conscious of? I assume sentience relates to sensing... sensing the world, or having a sense of the world.. two very different things.. not sure sentience is necessarily feeling the world..
The Emmeche paper looks like its up my street :) Thanks for the link @smcder

Another Emmeche paper, may be more useful.

Levels, Emergence, and Three Versions of Downward Causation
 
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Good stuff.

I tried to capture this quandary w/ my post above. We can say there are organisms/robots that "sense" the world—bc they behave as such.

But when can we know that an organism/robot senses the world in the sense we're after—phenomenally/mentally?

Question for @Pharoah : can a fully determined, automata, mechanistic organism ever be said to have a mind? If so, why would it need a mind?

Does mind begin where mechanism ends?
I puzzle over this quite a bit. I once thought that HCT indicated that artificial consciousness was possible, and with it, sentience... (in theory HCT says yes, but in practise I am more confident the answer is negative). Certainly, HCT indicates you have to go deeper than the artificial neural level. That being said, the artificial neural level will be able to produce behaviours that pass the Turing test imo.
If I came face to face with an AC robot that appeared as if it had sentience, I would apply the Intentional Stance in my attitidue to it because the dangers of assuming no sentience has worse consequences than assuming sentience... or maybe assuming sentience has significantly more dangers than assuming otherwise?... "so... you actually have a mind... how quaint!" [robot to human in the bar] "don't let that spoil the fun" [human to robot]
 

Quoted:

"The problem, as I see it, concerns causation. To say that thoughts arise from physical actions is to say that physical actions cause thoughts. But this entails a conceptual leap from ‘material physicalism’ to the ephemeral notion of ‘thought’, the assumption being that there is a direct connection from one to the other in mechanistic causal terms."​

I don't have a problem with the idea that thoughts arise from physical actions or that physical actions cause thoughts. I would however say that there doesn't need to be a "conceptual leap", because ontologically, the existence of material things is just as mysterious as the existence of thoughts, so the fact that one can give rise to and influence the other isn't any surprise ( to me anyway ).
 
Merleau-Ponty's Human-Animality Intertwining and the Animal Question
Louise Westling, University of Oregon

Abstract: Maurice Merleau-Ponty's late work locates humans within a wild or brute being that sustains a synergy among life forms. His Nature lectures explored the philosophical implications of evolutionary biology and animal studies, and with The Visible and the Invisible describe a horizontal kinship between humans and other animals. This work offers a striking alternative to Heidegger's panicky insistence on an abyss between humans and other animals that Derrida questions but cannot seem to discard. For Merleau-Ponty, literary works probe the invisible realm of wildness that is our only environment, a realm full of language and meaningfully experienced by all animals.

Maurice Merleau-Ponty's late work defines a chiasmic ontology in which human
experience is part of a wild or brute being that sustains all life and provides a synergy among its distinct forms. His Nature lectures at the Collège de France explored the philosophical implications of modern science, including evolutionary biology and animal studies, and together with the unfinished manuscript of The Visible and the Invisible gestured toward a horizontal kinship between humans. This work offers a striking alternative to Heidegger's panicky insistence on the abyss between humans and other animals, an abyss that Derrida questions but cannot seem to discard in The Animal that Therefore I Am.
Matthew Calarco wonders why Derrida would resolutely refuse to abandon the human/animal distinction and "why he would use this language of ruptures and abysses when the largest bodies of empirical knowledge we have concerning human beings and animals strongly contest such language."1 But Derrida explicitly resists any claims of "biological continuism, whose sinister connotations we are well aware of . . . ."2 As a Jew he might have been particularly aware of the cruel history of Social Darwinism, eugenics and animal coding for abjecting human groups during the twentieth century. However, accepting a continuum between our species and

1 Zoographies: The Question of the Animal from Heidegger to Derrida (New York: Coumbia U P, 2008) pp. 145, 147. Further citations will be in parentheses in the text.
2 The Animal That Therefore I Am, ed. Marie-Louise Mallet and trans. David Wills (New York: Fordham University Press, 2008), pp 30-31.


other creatures need not lead to extremes such as Social Darwinism or some of the excesses of sociobiology and Neo-Darwinism which include humans within mechanistic and reductionist descriptions of organic behavior. A continuum would instead imply that many kinds of consciousness and perception evolved over the hundreds of millennia of life's emergence. Human sentience would then be understood as one of many kinds of animal awareness, as the work of Jakob von Uexküll asserts. Neither humans nor other animals could then be dismissed
deterministically as mechanisms; instead they would have to be recognized as active participants shaping the many meanings of the biological community. This is the minority position voiced so strongly in the Renaissance by Montaigne in "The Apology for Raymond Sebond" and by Darwin in The Descent of Man in the nineteenth century.3

Evolutionary biology, recent archeological finds, and empirical animal studies have
erased much of the distance between homo sapiens and our coevolved animal relatives such as the great apes, dolphins, elephants, and even parrots.4 The Humanist tradition of insistence on our separateness from the rest of the animal community seems increasingly absurd, in ways that Merleau-Ponty's proto-ecological philosophy anticipated. Although he acknowledged the
distinctive qualities of human communication and art, he saw them as having developed from gestural meaning that is fully enmeshed in the phenomenal world. The varieties of human

3 Calarco sees Derrida's position as a solution to a false dilemma, a choice between extremes of complete separation between humans and other animals, or reductive homogeneity, Zoographies, p. 149.
4 See for example Lynn Margulis, Symbiotic Planet: A New Look at Evolution (New York: Basic Books, 1998); Nicholas Wade, Before the Dawn: Recovering the Lost History of Our Ancestors (New York: Penguin, 2006); Stephen Mithin, After the Ice: A Global Human History (Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard U P, 2004); Sue Savage-Rumbaugh, "Chapter 1: Bringing Up Kanzi" in Apes, Language, and the Human Mind. Sue Savage-Rumbaugh, Stuart G. Shanker, and Talbot J. Taylor (New York: Oxford U P, 1998), pp. 3-74; Frans De Waal, The Ape and the Sushi Master: Cultural Reflections of a Primatologist (New York: Basic Books, 2001); Caitlin O'Connell. The Elephant's Secret Sense: The Hidden Life of the Wild Herds of Africa (Chicago: U Chicago P, 2008); and Irene Pepperberg, Alex and Me (New York: Barnes and Noble, 2008).


speech are our particular ways of "singing the world."5 For him, literary works probe the invisible realm of wildness that is our only environment, a realm that he saw as full of language and meaningfully experienced by all animals. Strangely Merleau-Ponty is rarely mentioned by most participants in the recent spate of critical animal studies stimulated by Derrida's reevaluation of Heidegger's position.6 In these
writings, only Donna Haraway, Matthew Calarco, and Cary Wolfe have seriously challenged Derrida's resistance to the idea of biological continuism. Why might that be, when Merleau-Ponty's work so closely accords with much postmodern theory as well as with the concerns of present environmental and animal studies debates? Already in the 1950s he was moving beyond human exceptionism and seriously exploring the philosophical consequences of biological and ethological research. Taylor Carman and Mark Hansen believe one reason is that Merleau-Ponty's premature death prevented the full development of his philosophical project. They also suggest that his reputation fell victim to the radical spirit of 1968 which led a younger generation including Derrida, Lacan, and Foucault to lump Merleau-Ponty together with Husserl and Sartre and to accuse phenomenology of humanist focus on consciousness, or subjectivism.7

That charge could not have been made if his late writings and lectures had been well
known. Not only did he reject that kind of focus on human consciousness, but his lifelong engagement with science took him well beyond the positions of other phenomenologists.8 His attitude toward scientific thought was not uncritical,

5 Phenomenology of Perception. Trans. Colin Smith (London: Routledge, 2000), pp. 179, 187.
6 See for example, Giorgio Agamben, The Open: Man and Animal (Stanford, Stanford U P, 2004); Kelly Oliver, "Stopping the Anthropological Machine: Agamben with Heidegger and Merleau-Ponty." PhaenEx 2 (Fall/Winter 2007): 1-23; Donna Haraway, When Species Meet (Minneapolis: U of Minnesota P, 2008); Timothy Morton, "Ecologocentrism: Unworking Animals." SubStance 117 (2008): 73-96; Calarco, Zoographies, see Note 1 above; and the PMLA special "Animal Studies" series in Vol. 124 (March 2009): 472-575, especially Cary Wolfe's contribution, "Human, All Too Human: 'Animal Studies' and the Humanities," 564-575.
7 Introduction, The Cambridge Companion to Merleau-Ponty. Ed. Taylor Carman and Mark B. N. Hansen (New York: Cambridge U P, 2008) p. 22.
8 Merleau-Ponty's position on human-animal relations in this late work is complicated by its unfinished quality. The posthumously published manuscript of The Visible and the Invisible was relatively polished and carefully worked out as far as it went, but as translator Robert Vallier explains, the Nature lectures are preserved only in an anonymous student's notes and Merleau-Ponty's own scribbled notes for the final course of 1959-1960. See "Translator's Introduction," Nature: Course Notes from the Collège de France, compiled and with notes by Dominique Sélgard and trans. Robert Vallier (Evanston: Northwestern U P, 2003) p. xiv. Even so, the notes show Merleau-Ponty testing out the meaning of specific research in the life sciences and exploring their philosophical consequences.


however, for he believed it to be limited by objectivism and its failure to acknowledge its situatedness within culture. For him, "classical science is a form of perception which loses sight of its origins and believes itself complete;"9 its theories and schematizations are "an abstract and derivative sign-language, as is geography in relation to the countryside in which we have learnt beforehand what a forest, a prairie or a river is."10 But he also saw that scientists provided the most carefully regulated available attention to the natural world. All through his career he closely connected his arguments to relevant scientific research. In particular he relied upon Gestalt psychology and the disciplines of neuroscience during the 1930s and 1940s; and explored physics, animal studies, human physiology, and evolutionary biology in the 1950s. He saw philosophy and science as complementary explorations of the world and thus necessarily engaged in productive dialogue with one another.

The Visible and the Invisible is unequivocal in asserting the essential wildness of Being and the intertwining or chiasmic relationships among all creatures and things in the dynamic unfolding of reality through evolutionary time. Human beings, like all other living things, are immersed in this flesh of the world, within "a spatial and temporal pulp where the individuals are formed by differentiation."11 Within this flesh, species and individual organisms manifest not only formal resemblances but also identical constituting substances, i. e. atoms, molecules, and microorganisms that embody or mirror biological macrocosms. Heidegger would be horrified to think that each human or other animal body was itself a symbiotic community of many tinier bodies. Yet this new understanding would not have troubled Merleau-Ponty, who asked, "Why would not the synergy exist among different organisms, if it is possible within each? Their landscapes interweave, their actions and their passions fit together exactly . . . ."12 When Alphonso Lingis describes the hundreds of bacteria inhabiting our mouths to neutralize plant toxins or those digesting the food in our intestines,13 he is extending this point to recent discoveries about the genetic and cellular make-up of our bodies which came long after Merleau-Ponty's death but which show that the symbiotic intertwinings within each organism do indeed mirror those outside them. But Merleau-Ponty's concepts of écart and dehiscence account for distinctions among living creatures at the same time that there is kinship and continuism. The analogy he uses to explain this situation is that of our two hands both touching and being touched by each other, both parts of the same body but also distinct from each other. As it is with our two hands, so it is also between our conscious awareness of our body and its inaccessible inner thickness, between our movements and what we touch, and between us and other kindred creatures. This is a synergy of "overlapping and fission, identity and difference."14

In the Nature lectures, Merleau-Ponty acknowledged biological continuism by
considering the meaning of new work in evolutionary biology and discussing the silent emergence of humans and their horizontal relationship to other species that Teilhard de Chardin had defined in The Phenomenon of Man . . . ."

continue at:
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/49ba/77e030c3eec09b5b44a56de7725f4d1a9049.pdf

Margulis Symbiotic Planet overview of the main ideas in the book.
 
Quoted:

"The problem, as I see it, concerns causation. To say that thoughts arise from physical actions is to say that physical actions cause thoughts. But this entails a conceptual leap from ‘material physicalism’ to the ephemeral notion of ‘thought’, the assumption being that there is a direct connection from one to the other in mechanistic causal terms."​

I don't have a problem with the idea that thoughts arise from physical actions or that physical actions cause thoughts. I would however say that there doesn't need to be a "conceptual leap", because ontologically, the existence of material things is just as mysterious as the existence of thoughts, so the fact that one can give rise to and influence the other isn't any surprise ( to me anyway ).
strong emergence
[strah-n-ga ih-mur-juh ns]
noun
  1. the act or process of shit appearing from out of nowhere.

  2. an outgrowth, as a prickle, on the surface of a plant, capable of picking up heavy stuff.
It's just fine to say that consciousness just does emerge from some physical processes and to also say we just don't and just can't know why.

But then if that's the case one still must explain what this ontologically new stuff causally does in the physical world (overdetermination) and how, causally, it does so (downward causation).

It can be argued that the science of physics is merely descriptive and not explanatory. And thus we "simply" need a psychophysical physics which can rigorously describe the "causal" relationship between mind and body. (Something that @smcder and @Pharoah have mentioned many times via Nagel.)
 
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Quoted:

"The problem, as I see it, concerns causation. To say that thoughts arise from physical actions is to say that physical actions cause thoughts. But this entails a conceptual leap from ‘material physicalism’ to the ephemeral notion of ‘thought’, the assumption being that there is a direct connection from one to the other in mechanistic causal terms."​

I don't have a problem with the idea that thoughts arise from physical actions or that physical actions cause thoughts. I would however say that there doesn't need to be a "conceptual leap", because ontologically, the existence of material things is just as mysterious as the existence of thoughts, so the fact that one can give rise to and influence the other isn't any surprise ( to me anyway ).

There is a more direct way to penetrate the "mysteries" you refer to as the existence of both 'material things' and 'thoughts', and that is through the exploration of the evolution and learning-based development of protoconsciousness (prereflective) and consciousness (reflective) as our species experiences these stages of being. This path requires scuttling the belief/presupposition that 'reality' can only be described in what Pharoah refers to above as "mechanistic causal terms."
 
@Pharoah, I'm halfway through my second reading of your paper "The Emergence of Qualitative Attribution: Phenomenal Experience and Being" and will finish this reading later tonight or tomorrow morning. I have taken some notes to share with you, along with links to several papers that support your thinking and will post those after I've finished this reading. I think this paper is brilliant and that the journal Biosemiotics should publish it if they haven't already done so.
 
There is a more direct way to penetrate the "mysteries" you refer to as the existence of both 'material things' and 'thoughts', and that is through the exploration of the evolution and learning-based development of protoconsciousness (prereflective) and consciousness (reflective) as our species experiences these stages of being. This path requires scuttling the belief/presupposition that 'reality' can only be described in what Pharoah refers to above as "mechanistic causal terms."
I see reality as that which exists in either a subjective or objective context, and it looks to me ( and many other people ) like the subjective arises out of the objective, and therefore it can be fairly said that objective reality appears to play a causal role in the emergence of subjective reality. So perhaps when the ingredients are mixed just right, we can identify a sort of hierarchy that exists within our realm. But that still doesn't change the situation that existence itself on a fundamental level defies any sort of explanation, and that is what I was driving at.

If we cannot explain the fundamental existence of anything, what's the point of trying to explain the fundamental existence of particular things? The best we can hope for is some utilitarian outcome whereby we come to understand how relationships between finite sets of things works. When we do that the concepts of cause and effect become immediately apparent. So abandoning that realization would seem to be a step backward in any pragmatic sense. Without it there would never have been a Renaissance, an industrial revolution, a space race, the rise of technology, improvements in medicine. It's a very powerful thing. I'm not so sure that discarding it is a step in the right direction.
 
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@Pharoah, I'm halfway through my second reading of your paper "The Emergence of Qualitative Attribution: Phenomenal Experience and Being" and will finish this reading later tonight or tomorrow morning. I have taken some notes to share with you, along with links to several papers that support your thinking and will post those after I've finished this reading. I think this paper is brilliant and that the journal Biosemiotics should publish it if they haven't already done so.
I look forward to any specific feedback. I am pleased you like it so far. This version is in large part a product of this forum's discussions... you can see each contributors influences dotted about. Biosemiotics take 3 months unforunately... if the editor actually puts it up for review. Another editor recommended I send it to Nous or Phil quarterly which was helpful advice. One of thewe days I might even get the thumbs up.
 
Levels, Emergence, and Three Versions of Downward Causation

"In level theories, the concept of entity is used as a designation for the unit that is constitutive for a given level. A level is thus characterized by a certain primary entity possessing the emergent property defining the level. Hence, the specific conception of this entity is crucial as regards the kind of level theory for which one opts.

1 a Constitutive reductionism

Ontologically or materially, a higher level entity (for instance a biological cell) consists of entities belonging to the lower level (the cell consists of molecules). These lower level entities are constituents of the higher level and are organized in a certain way that yields the higher level entity (the cell). This does not mean that the higher level can be reduced to the lower (in which case no levels would be relevant), but that the higher level does not add any substance to the entities of the lower level.

1 b Constitutive irreductionism
Ontologically or materially, a higher level entity is constituted by the lower level, but even if the lower level entities are a necessary condition for the higher level, this higher level cannot be reduced to the form or organization of the constituents. Thus, the higher level must be said to constitute its own substanceand not merely to consist of its lower level constituents.

2 a Formal realism of levels
The structure, organisation or form of an entity is an objectively existent and irreducible feature of it. The specific form characterizing a higher level entity (organizing its lower level constituents) cannot be reduced to lower level forms or substances.

2 b Substantial realism of levels
A higher level entity is defined by a substantial difference from lower level entities. The morphological or organizational aspect is a necessary but not sufficient condition of a higher level entity. Through emergence, an ontological change in substance takes place.

These hypotheses are related in such a way that 1a and 2a are often connected in a given argument, as are 1b and 2b. Most theories of downward causation can be //p. 17/ placed under one of these two headlines, depending on whether it is the first or the second set of assumptions which (most often implicitly) founded the theory.
 
The "full house" argument from Gould's The Spread of Excellence 1996

Full House: The Spread of Excellence from Plato to Darwin - Wikipedia

"In the second example, Gould points out that many people wrongly believe that the process of evolution has a preferred direction—a tendency to make organisms more complex and more sophisticated as time goes by. Those who believe in evolution's drive towards progress often demonstrate it with a series of organisms that appeared in different eons, with increasing complexity, e.g., "bacteria, fern, dinosaurs, dog, man". Gould explains how these increasingly complex organisms are just one end of the complexity distribution, and why looking only at them misses the entire picture—the "full house". He explains that by any measure, the most common organisms have always been, and still are, the bacteria. The complexity distribution is bounded at one side (a living organism cannot be much simpler than bacteria), so an unbiased random walk by evolution, sometimes going in the complexity direction and sometimes going towards simplicity (without having an intrinsic preference to either), will create a distribution with a small, but longer and longer tail at the high complexity end."

Reviews
Full House: The Spread of Excellence from Plato to Darwin - Wikipedia

also

Evolution of biological complexity - Wikipedia
  • there is also selective pressure on simplicity and to dispense of unnecessary traits
  • complexity can be dispensed when a particular complex trait merely provides no selective advantage in a particular environment
  • even in the absence of any gain - the loss may be fixed by mutations in the population - Mutations causing loss of a complex trait occur more often than mutations causing gain of a complex trait.
What drives complexity?
  • co-evolution (hosts and pathogens)
  • co-evolution between an organism and the ecosystem of predators, prey and parasites to which it tries to stay adapted: as any of these become more complex in order to cope better with the diversity of threats offered by the ecosystem formed by the others, the others too will have to adapt by becoming more complex, thus triggering an ongoing evolutionary arms race[9] towards more complexity.[11] This trend may be reinforced by the fact that ecosystems themselves tend to become more complex over time, as species diversity increases, together with the linkages or dependencies between species.
Evolution of biological complexity - Wikipedia
  • Indeed, some computer models have suggested that the generation of complex organisms is an inescapable feature of evolution
  • However, the idea of increasing production of complexity in evolution can also be explained through a passive process.[13] Assuming unbiased random changes of complexity and the existence of a minimum complexity leads to an increase over time of the average complexity of the biosphere.[4] This involves an increase in variance, but the mode does not change. The trend towards the creation of some organisms with higher complexity over time exists, but it involves increasingly small percentages of living things.
That last is Gould's idea.

"In this hypothesis, any appearance of evolution acting with an intrinsic direction towards increasingly complex organisms is a result of people concentrating on the small number of large, complex organisms that inhabit the right-hand tail of the complexity distribution and ignoring simpler and much more common organisms. This passive model predicts that the majority of species are microscopic prokaryotes, which is supported by estimates of 106 to 109 extant prokaryotes[16]compared to diversity estimates of 106 to 3·106 for eukaryotes.[17][18] Consequently, in this view, microscopic life dominates Earth, and large organisms only appear more diverse due to sampling bias.

Genome complexity has generally increased since the beginning of the life on Earth.[19][20]"

How dependent is HCT is how dependent on "inevitability" and "tendency"

Abstract: I argue that the physiological, phenomenal and conceptual constitute a trichotomous hierarchy of emergent classes. I claim that each class employs a distinctive type of interactive mechanism that facilitates a meaningful class of environmental discourse. I advocate, therefore, that each have a causal relation with the environment through physical interaction, but that their specific class of mechanism qualifies distinctively the meaningfulness of that interaction and subsequent responses to it. Consequently, I argue that the causal chain of physical interaction feeds distinctive axiological constructions that are ontologically distinct for each class. Within the limitations of the interactive mechanisms of each class, increasingly sophisticated forms tend to evolve. The increase in sophistication in each class inevitably leads to the emergence of the novel mechanism particular to the next class in the hierarchy. In essence, there is an emergent hierarchy of evolving classes delineated by the nature of their mechanism of environmental engagement. Specifically, I argue that biochemical mechanisms have a tendency to evolve meaningfully, specifically in a way that is both qualitatively relevant and responsive to environmental particulars. I explain that these mechanisms set in play an organizational imperative that leads to the emergence of the capacity to evaluate and prioritize qualitative biochemical assimilations which, inevitably, generates a subjectively individuated experience phenomenon. I then relate this to the novel characteristics of the human perspective.

Generally it feels like there is room for this within the parameters of the arguments of evolution of complexity as outlined above - but in some cases: e.g.
  • The increase in sophistication in each class inevitably leads to the emergence of the novel mechanism particular to the next class in the hierarchy.
I'm not so sure ... That may be one of the more radical things HCT contends - but if we balance that against what I understand @Constance to be saying in MP's work on animality and recent articles I've read on bacterial and plant intelligence - then I question the inevitability - particularly the idea that there is a fixed progression of hierarchies as some of the imagery seems to indicate:

hct-hd-infographic-consciousness-hierarchical-construct.jpg

... and that there is a stage to come.
 
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@Pharoah writes:

http://fqxi.org/data/essay-contest-files/Pharoah_fqxi_23-02-17.pdf


" ... the desire to communicate through language was the motivational impetus that would have led to the evolution of specialized language centres in the brain: the compulsive desire to speak came first, and the physiology gradually evolved to realize the potential benefits of that discursive capability."


over and against earlier "evo/devo" ideas and Lamarkism ...

Evolution of biological complexity - Wikipedia
(but see also: Lamarckism - Wikipedia)

History[edit]
Further information: Orthogenesis
In the 19th century, some scientists such as Jean-Baptiste Lamarck (1744–1829) and Ray Lankester (1847–1929) believed that nature had an innate striving to become more complex with evolution. This belief may reflect then-current ideas of Hegel (1770–1831) and of Herbert Spencer (1820–1903) which envisaged the universe gradually evolving to a higher, more perfect state.

This view regarded the evolution of parasites from independent organisms to a parasitic species as "devolution" or "degeneration", and contrary to nature. Social theorists have sometimes interpreted this approach metaphorically to decry certain categories of people as "degenerate parasites". Later scientists regarded biological devolution as nonsense; rather, lineages become simpler or more complicated according to whatever forms had a selective advantage.[21]


smcder
... again, though, if this is what is radical about HCT - then I say flaunt it - anticipating the critique - that is, IF HCT argues for an evolutionary trend or inevitable rise in complexity ... and doesn't just fit within the possibilities of biological complexity as we understand it currently, but then it wouldn't be as radical.
 
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@Pharoah writes:

"If the humans can be justified in believing in the particular facts pertaining to Edna and her environment, it would seem their knowledge relies exclusively on Edna’s biochemical mechanisms as revealed by her eDNA. The knowledge the scientists accrue has not been compiled from disparate disciplines; they did not collate their knowledge, for example, from geologists, climatologists, archaeologists, chemists, biologists and so on. Rather, their knowledge has been compiled from only one source. This one source—Edna’s eDNA—contains all the necessary information. Therefore, is it not the case that the human geneticists derive all their conceptually constructed knowledge about Edna and her environment solely from the study and interpretation—interpretation being analogous to translation—of Edna’s physiologically constructed knowledge which was accurately and responsively informed by the environment in which her species replicated and evolved? If so, can it be true that there is such a thing as physiological knowledge, which is in some way distinct from conceptual knowledge?

smcder
I would say the knowledge of disparate disciplines (including empirical knowledge) is implicit in the scientists' knowledge and technology - and ask if it it is possible to get all the knowledge out of the DNA, the whole DNA and only the DNA ... ? Or if it is even all IN the DNA?

columbo.jpg

For one thing ...

epigenetics.jpg

And I think a lot of information is stored in the environment.

I am not sure that no matter how sophisticated a knowledge of DNA one has, that all of this could be pulled out of only a sample of DNA? I'm not sure everything is coded in DNA - there is lots of information in the environment - and species move into novel environments - if you were given the DNA of an ancient mammal with a wide range (say a hominid) would you be able to tell everything about it? I don't think you would be able to say where it lived in that wide range?

but I don't think you have to base your argument that there is a physiological kind of "knowledge" ... in fact, I'm not sure you need the whole line of arguing for it being a kind of knowledge, or that you couldn't simply say "knowledge" (in quotes) anytime you need to.
 
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@Pharoah

It was plant-like having seed, growth and reproductive phases, each responding to very different environmental conditions and triggers. For each phase they are able to reconstruct a three-dimensional graphic illustration of what Edna would have looked like. They are also able to determine all the interrelated biochemical details of this unique organism. Her biochemistry indicates how she created energy for respiration, how she reproduced, her reliance on insects for pollination and on hairy animals for seed dispersal, and so on.

smcder
this is "alien" DNA so how would you determine "insects"? Would the DNA look substantially different for insects vs something with a long tail and an insect-shaped prehensile tip that "floated" along above its quintuped owner pollinating EDNAs? Same with "hairy animals" - as opposed to (aliens) with a glue-like secretion on the outer hide that carried the seeds and then rubbed them off on the Glub-glub tree? Or were eaten and then the seeds dispersed from there by various means?

Again, I am not sure that's important to your argument.
 
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Two other thoughts on this: (I can't decide whether to spell your name @Pharoah or Pharaoh ... as my grandmother said "treat all mistakes as love" ;-)

@Pharoah

writes:

"Individuals that are actively seeking awareness of the conscious state have exceptional communicational intent. Such individuals are compelled to formulate any suitable framework that can effectively communicate their conceptualization of the world. That universally suitable framework, for all languages, is a grammar that adequately differentiates the character of the concepts that the individual seeks to impart. Consequently, from infancy, an individual’s languages develop as a response to its maturing concepts. In evolutionary terms, the desire to communicate through language was the motivational impetus that would have led to the evolution of specialized language centres in the brain: the compulsive desire to speak came first, and the physiology gradually evolved to realize the potential benefits of that discursive capability."


let's have that in instant-replay:
In evolutionary terms, the desire to communicate through language was the motivational impetus that would have led to the evolution of specialized language centres in the brain: the compulsive desire to speak came first, and the physiology gradually evolved to realize the potential benefits of that discursive capability.

smcder 2 thoughts

1. that is a phrase that will be used in cases of ambiguity "did he means this or that" and the reviewer will go back to this and say "remember he said that .... so ..." because, if I read it write, it's radical ...

2. parsimony the standard theory would say something like human language came out of the (physiological) variability of various ways of communicating and some kind of mutation - or the physiology was there at some point and there was a new understand of how to use it ... now the physiology may have been there and continued to evolve and that may be what you are saying (?) - but to say that the physiology evolved as a result of the "compulsive desire" qua "compulsive desire" ... would be a departure, something more like Lamarckism ... but also we would need a "how" and would need to see if this is a parsimonious explanation ... at the species level would there be only one "compulsive desire"? Does it make sense in the light of what you may mean by this statement to ask "why didn't we evolve the physiology to fly?" as that also seem a compulsive desire ... or, since we have the compulsive desire to communicate directly with another person, why did we not develop ESP? (maybe we did!) ... why does language seem to have so much in common with the "languages" or "communications" of other animals - why aren't more and more species evolving it?

Now, I will go back and ask myself "How would HCT answer these questions?" !
 
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