"via the (scientific) intersubjective approach."
Would you define 'the (scientific) intersubjective approach' or link us to a source that explicates it? Thanks.
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"via the (scientific) intersubjective approach."
You can have phenomenal perception sans quality? Is that what you’re saying?
Or are you saying we can perceive qualities; ie we can literally, directly see, say, the color blue that someone is experiencing?
Or are you saying we can perceive qualities; ie we can literally, directly see, say, the color blue that someone is experiencing?
I think the enactive approach is wonderful, I really do. Of course our emotions, sensations, thoughts, etc involve our entire bodies, and is not done passively, etc.This paper and the next one I'll link might help others here to see where @Pharoah and I are coming from . . . .
"The brain as part of an enactive system"
Gallagher, S., Hutto, D., Slaby, J. and Cole, J. (2013). The brain as part of an enactive system. Behavioral and Brain Sciences, 36 (4), 421-422.
Abstract: The notion of an enactive system requires thinking about the brain in a way that is different from the standard computational- representational models. In evolutionary terms, the brain does what it does and is the way that it is, across some scale of variations, because it is part of a living body with hands that can reach and grasp in certain limited ways, eyes structured to focus, an autonomic system, an upright posture, etc. coping with specific kinds of environments, and with other people. Changes to any of the bodily, environmental, or intersubjective conditions elicit responses from the system as a whole. On this view, rather than representing or computing information, the brain is better conceived as participating in the action.
https://ro.uow.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1927&context=lhapapers
I think the enactive approach is wonderful, I really do. Of course our emotions, sensations, thoughts, etc involve our entire bodies, and is not done passively, etc.
But people have vivid conscious experiences while sleeping in their dark rooms with their motor systems frozen every night. And people have vivid (indeed more vidid than normal waking consciousness) when under the influence of chemicals like lsd and DMT.
How we are and normal, everyday conscious experience certainly involve the entire body, but ultimately the activity of the entire body is not necessary for conscious experience. Just the brain.
Furthermore, enactive approaches to not solve nor resolve the HP.
But I’m not looking for an argument. I’m not. You and Pharoah are welcome to forge forward with weak/strong emergence. It seems a wild goose chase to me. I am certainly open to findings or new ideas that push the discussion in that direction.
On the other hand, the intrinsic nature approach and indirect realism—while as radical as all get out—resolve a lot of the mysteries for me, and do so while being perfectly in line with QFT.
At this point I don’t expect anyone to consider these radical ideas. It’s enough for me that others understand them as don’t misrepresent them. No dung piles contemplating tea at noon here please. Haha.
Second, the motor system is frozen I think only for certain periods (REM?) and even if frozen, this doesn't mean there isn't connection to the limbs and brain. Perhaps a brain and some connections to these limbs is sufficient for experience of some kind, but I wouldn't give much for the quality of experience and development of someone who had only these inputs from birth.
My daughter and I always knew when our Chows were dreaming {especially the male, Miles} while they were sleeping on the floor of the room where we did schoolwork and projects. Miles would move his legs as if running after some prey, eyelids blinking (REM sleep), and often vocalizing. Dogs also have purely aesthetic responses to their natural surroundings, especially outside when the season is changing or the air is moving, carrying scents of plants and flowers or the sea.
Our dogs do this too - sometimes Lucky seems so upset while dreaming that I wake him - we rescued him near death and I am afraid he is reliving something awful from that time.
How we are and {in?] normal, everyday conscious experience certainly involve the entire body, but ultimately the activity of the entire body is not necessary for conscious experience. Just the brain.
But I’m not looking for an argument. I’m not. You and Pharoah are welcome to forge forward with weak/strong emergence. It seems a wild goose chase to me. I am certainly open to findings or new ideas that push the discussion in that direction.
On the other hand, the intrinsic nature approach and indirect realism—while as radical as all get out—resolve a lot of the mysteries for me, and do so while being perfectly in line with QFT.
The thing is. One of the most tried and true methods of comprehending different perspectives is by understanding each other's argument. Argument is in and of itself not offensive in the least. Rather it is how arguments are conducted that gives them their character.I agree, no need to argue, but a need to comprehend our different perspectives ...
The thing is. One of the most tried and true methods of comprehending different perspectives is by understanding each other's argument. Argument is in and of itself not offensive in the least. Rather it is how arguments are conducted that gives them their character.
How To Argue
A true classic I just realized I have chairs exactly like those in my kitchen !So...You're starting an argument about whether or not to have an argument?
No.That’s actually not a bad example haha. So what do you think explains the brain-mind nexus?
My understanding is that you believe the brain causes the mind, correct?
It’s not meant as an argument but rather as a criticism. My point is that even if you say qualities are brain or mind independent then you still have to come up with a language and an explanation for those differences that various creatures attribute to things that we would formerly have referred to as qualitative. The smell of dung for me as opposed to a dung beetle is not a qualitative difference (on your account) but a... [!?] difference.That’s not an argument mate.
No neither.... this is hard!You can have phenomenal perception sans quality? Is that what you’re saying?
Or are you saying we can perceive qualities; ie we can literally, directly see, say, the color blue that someone is experiencing?
No I don’t. Re 1 It makes no sense (as I tried to point out re space/ time/quality) to say that quality emerges from space. Think about an impressionist painting and a line draw perspective drawing of a corridor. The colours create spatial imagery in the former but the corridor does not create qualities of colour in the latter.Pharoah if you want to overcome the intrinsic nature argument, you need to:
1) explain how quality emerges from spatial relationships
2) explain how non-brain states are fundamentally different from brain states as it pertains to their qualitative nature