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Consciousness and the Paranormal — Part 12

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I’m not letting him off the hook for claiming the ipsundrun is proto phenomenal.

This is like saying nature is not phenomenal. Brains are proto phenomenal. And representations are phenomenal.

how do we get from non phenomenal to protophenomenal?

He's not claiming the ipsundrum is proto phenomenal in the way that the panpsychist claims nature is proto phenomenal. It's a different use of the word "proto". Proto here is used as a precursor. Proto in the way panpsychists use it is "primitive" or "original".

Playing with this, I could say "the absence of ether is protophenomenal". ;-)
 
This is akin to Bach’s statement that organisms aren’t conscious, simulations are conscious.

Humphrey is saying the ipsundrum isn’t conscious, the representations it manifests are conscious.

Dennett would say the same. Brains manifest representations that have phenomenal qualities.

Whereas Humphrey says these phenomenal qualities are real (albeit non physical) Dennett and Bach would say they are illusory.

I don't know. And I'm not sure about the language "the representations it manifests" here is what he says:

  • "It’s true that the ipsundrum, as such, does not have phenomenal properties, and what you read into it does have them."
  • The phenomenality emerges only when this brain activity is read by an inner observer with a sense of consciousness who gets the sensation."

So, if pressed, I would say the phenomenality is with the inner observer, if that's the same as "the representations it manifests" then ok. Also, how much that is Dennett saying the same I will leave to you.
 
I don't know. And I'm not sure about the language "the representations it manifests" here is what he says:

  • "It’s true that the ipsundrum, as such, does not have phenomenal properties, and what you read into it does have them."
  • The phenomenality emerges only when this brain activity is read by an inner observer with a sense of consciousness who gets the sensation."

So, if pressed, I would say the phenomenality is with the inner observer, if that's the same as "the representations it manifests" then ok. Also, how much that is Dennett saying the same I will leave to you.

Excellent discussion. Looking up the 'ipsundrum', the first item in my search was this dual book-review by Raymond Tallis entitled "A Mind of One's Own" --

Extract: "The theoretical psychologist Nicholas Humphrey's Soul Dust: the Magic of Consciousness is extremely ambitious. He claims to have solved "the hard problem" of consciousness: how it is that a piece of matter such as a human organism (or its brain) can have conscious experiences, items that do not seem of a nature that can be conjured out of matter alone. His "explanation" is confused and confusing, not the least for his conclusion that consciousness is "a magical mystery show that you lay on for yourself", a "self-created entertainment for the mind", staged by one part of the brain to influence another part of the brain. He concedes that he does "not expect everyone to be convinced it is a good idea just yet". You bet. "Laying on a show", rather than offering an explanation, is precisely the kind of thing that has to be explained; indeed, it seems a somewhat late, higher-level or sophisticated mode of consciousness that presupposes, rather than helps us to understand, more basic modes of awareness such as sensation.

The idea of consciousness as a “show” is ultimately derived from the bankrupt representational theory of the mind - a notion that things are present to us by virtue of being “represented” or “modelled” in the brain. You cannot get to representation, however, without prior (conscious, first-order) presentation, so the latter cannot explain the former. Neuroscientists of consciousness try to elude this obvious objection by asserting that representations are not (necessarily) conscious. In fact, all sorts of aspects of consciousness are not conscious after all. According to Humphrey, “before consciousness ever arose, animals were engaged in some kind of inner monitoring of their own responses to sensory stimulation”. What is “inner” about unconscious processes, material events in the material brain? And how can they amount to monitoring? These questions are not silenced by the author’s reassurance that consciousness is “the product of some kind of illusion chamber, a charade”. Nor does Humphrey tell us how he awoke from his consciousness to discover that it is an illusion. {note, I've picked up from one of @smcder's quotations from Humphrey that Humphrey does not claim that consciousness is an illusion.}

He elaborates his theory of mind with the assistance of opaque concepts such as “sentition” and “ipsundrum”. Sentition is “a privatised expressive activity”, whereby the sensation of the redness of a tomato, for example, means nothing other than for you to observe your own active “redding”. Make of that what you will. As for the ipsundrum, this is the seed of the self, analogous to illusory or impossible objects such as the Penrose triangle, which somehow generates the illusion of a world out there corresponding to a me “in here”, though it still has to be “‘seen’ by an internal observer”. It is, we are told, a “mathematical object”, “a complex pattern of dynamic activity in neural circuits”. This is hardly the kind of thing on which you could hang your hat, much less your biography.

Consciousness is “the set of brain events that occur when the subject observes, from a certain privileged position, his own ipsundrum which is the integral of the activity in a special kind of feedback loop”. Observes? Who or what observes? Privileged position? Privileged by virtue of what? How can there be privileged positions in the material world of which the brain is a part? Humphrey describes these ideas as “nice”. I beg to differ. I looked in vain for evidence to support them and was not surprised to find none. . . ."

A mind of one's own
 
Excellent discussion. Looking up the 'ipsundrum', the first item in my search was this dual book-review by Raymond Tallis entitled "A Mind of One's Own" --

Extract: "The theoretical psychologist Nicholas Humphrey's Soul Dust: the Magic of Consciousness is extremely ambitious. He claims to have solved "the hard problem" of consciousness: how it is that a piece of matter such as a human organism (or its brain) can have conscious experiences, items that do not seem of a nature that can be conjured out of matter alone. His "explanation" is confused and confusing, not the least for his conclusion that consciousness is "a magical mystery show that you lay on for yourself", a "self-created entertainment for the mind", staged by one part of the brain to influence another part of the brain. He concedes that he does "not expect everyone to be convinced it is a good idea just yet". You bet. "Laying on a show", rather than offering an explanation, is precisely the kind of thing that has to be explained; indeed, it seems a somewhat late, higher-level or sophisticated mode of consciousness that presupposes, rather than helps us to understand, more basic modes of awareness such as sensation.

The idea of consciousness as a “show” is ultimately derived from the bankrupt representational theory of the mind - a notion that things are present to us by virtue of being “represented” or “modelled” in the brain. You cannot get to representation, however, without prior (conscious, first-order) presentation, so the latter cannot explain the former. Neuroscientists of consciousness try to elude this obvious objection by asserting that representations are not (necessarily) conscious. In fact, all sorts of aspects of consciousness are not conscious after all. According to Humphrey, “before consciousness ever arose, animals were engaged in some kind of inner monitoring of their own responses to sensory stimulation”. What is “inner” about unconscious processes, material events in the material brain? And how can they amount to monitoring? These questions are not silenced by the author’s reassurance that consciousness is “the product of some kind of illusion chamber, a charade”. Nor does Humphrey tell us how he awoke from his consciousness to discover that it is an illusion. {note, I've picked up from one of @smcder's quotations from Humphrey that Humphrey does not claim that consciousness is an illusion.}

He elaborates his theory of mind with the assistance of opaque concepts such as “sentition” and “ipsundrum”. Sentition is “a privatised expressive activity”, whereby the sensation of the redness of a tomato, for example, means nothing other than for you to observe your own active “redding”. Make of that what you will. As for the ipsundrum, this is the seed of the self, analogous to illusory or impossible objects such as the Penrose triangle, which somehow generates the illusion of a world out there corresponding to a me “in here”, though it still has to be “‘seen’ by an internal observer”. It is, we are told, a “mathematical object”, “a complex pattern of dynamic activity in neural circuits”. This is hardly the kind of thing on which you could hang your hat, much less your biography.

Consciousness is “the set of brain events that occur when the subject observes, from a certain privileged position, his own ipsundrum which is the integral of the activity in a special kind of feedback loop”. Observes? Who or what observes? Privileged position? Privileged by virtue of what? How can there be privileged positions in the material world of which the brain is a part? Humphrey describes these ideas as “nice”. I beg to differ. I looked in vain for evidence to support them and was not surprised to find none. . . ."

A mind of one's own

Thanks for bringing Tallis back into this! I find his writing and McGilchrist's very refreshing. A tonic.
 
Humphrey's invention of 'the ipsundrum' is clearly an effort to minimize, distance, and distort the ipseity (sense of self-reference, of 'mineness', in lived experience) that is widely recognized in analytical and phenomenological philosophy of mind and consciousness studies as well as in psychology and psychotherapy. This paper adds to our understanding of the nature of ipseity.

Self-disorders and Schizophrenia: A Phenomenological Reappraisal of Poor Insight and Noncompliance
Mads G. Henriksen*,1,2 and Josef Parnas 1 , 2

Extract:
". . .The notion of disordered self as the core disturbance of schizophrenia appears in all foundational texts on schizophrenia (eg, Kraepelin, Bleuler, Minkowski, Jaspers, and Schneider) but was only recently revived in contemporary psychiatry.18–24 The experience of being a self, which is what here is at stake, signifies that we live our (conscious) life in the first-person perspective, as a self-present, single, temporally persistent, bodily, and bounded subject of experience. Phenomenology25 and neuroscience26 operate with the notion of “minimal” or “core” self to define a formal structure of experience that necessarily must be in place in order for us to have any experiences at all. The minimal self refers to the first-personal articulation of experience, typically called “mineness,” “myness,” “for-me-ness” or ipseity.27 It is a sense of “I-me-myself” that implicitly (prereflectively) permeates our experiences across the flux of time and changing modalities of conscious life. Ipseity is a condition of the so-called radical self-identification, which means that I am always already aware of “I-me-myself” and have no need for self-observation or self-reflection to assure myself of being myself. Ipseity thus conveys the very basic, persisting identity core, upon which more rich and complex feelings of identity and of being a person emerge and are created throughout our life.

The basic sense of minimal selfhood goes together with an automatic, unreflected immersion in the shared-social world (variously called, eg, “common sense” [Blankenburg], “sense of reality” [Jaspers] or “fonction du réel” [Janet]). The world is always pregiven, ie, tacitly grasped as a self-evident background of all experiencing and meaning. One is not only self-present but also present in the midst of the world of which one is partaking. This tacit and foundational self-world structure manifests itself as our ordinary “natural ontological attitude”: the world is pregiven as real, mind-independent, and constrained by the principles of space, time, causality, and noncontradiction, essentially making it reliable, predictable, and ontologically secure.

This basic self-world structure is disturbed in schizophrenia spectrum disorders, ie, it is constantly challenged, unstable, and oscillating, resulting in alarming and alienating anomalous self-experiences (also termed “self-disorders”), typically occurring already in childhood or early adolescence.24 The patients feel ephemeral, lacking core identity, profoundly, yet often ineffably different from others (Anderssein) and alienated from the social world. There is a diminished sense of existing as a bodily subject, distortions of the first-person perspective with a failing sense of “mineness” of the field of awareness (eg, “it feels as if the thoughts aren’t really mine”), and a deficient sense of privacy of the inner world. There is a significant lack of attunement and immersion in the world, inadequate prereflective grasp of self-evident meanings (perplexity), and hyper-reflectivity (eg, “I only live in my head” and “I always observe myself”). Although patients often suffer from self-disorders, the latter are usually lived in an ego-syntonic way, as modes rather than as objects, of the patients’ experience, ie, often affecting more the “how” than the “what” of experience. What is important to emphasize at this point is that the self-disorders, reflecting the unstable basic self-world structure, destabilize the natural ontological attitude and may throw the patient into a new ontological-existential perspective, an often solipsistic framework, no longer ruled by the “natural” certitudes concerning space, time, causality, and noncontradiction. Unconstrained by these certitudes, the world may appear as only apparent or staged, ontologically mind-dependent, prone to noncausal relations, and the patient may experience a unique access to deeper layers of reality, which are inaccessible to others. Often, these experiences evoke a specific sense of grandiosity, leaving others to be seen as oblivious to the true nature of reality and only concerned with everyday trivialities. . . ."

Self-disorders and Schizophrenia: A Phenomenological Reappraisal of Poor Insight and Noncompliance
 
Why not a nascent capacity initially enabled in primordial forms of life (or if you prefer, 'in living matter')? Even Erwin Schrodinger asked this question -- 'what is life?' -- and wrote a book with this title in the heady era of the discovery of quantum mechanics.

Perhaps, as Wallace Stevens, the modern poet par excellence, wrote in the late 1940s, "The spirit comes from the body of the world" and carries forward the expression, the elaboration, of the world as lived.

The whole poem is here: Consciousness and the Paranormal — Part 9

Which is why I said "...rather than"-- I agree with you wholeheartedly.
 
To be clear, I was rephrasing what I said as an clarification to something I said while answering another question which I've already forgot...

"Rather than Consciousness from nothing invades "unthinking" matter... "

Rephrased: [i.e. ] Consciousness as something fundamentally different from matter invading and taking control...like a spirit taking "possession" of something alien to itself
 
Technically correct

Illusion (noun)
A thing that is or is likely to be wrongly perceived or interpreted by the senses.


So...
A mind trying to percieve it's own methods of doing the same may be something like your head standing in the way of a vanishing point of recursive images reflected between two mirrors facing each other.

From this point of view an illusion just means it's not what you think...but that doesn't mean "unreal"
 
Amusing

"""
Call this the “contraction principle”:

(CP) “Phenomenality” is a property of certain integrated, global brain states. The brains of neurotypical human beings misrepresent this objectively given property of phenomenality by contracting it into a transparent conscious self-model, which then forms the origin of a first-person perspective.
"""
 
I had written in response to a previous post by MA:

"Why not a nascent capacity initially enabled in primordial forms of life (or if you prefer, 'in living matter')? Even Erwin Schrodinger asked this question -- 'what is life?' -- and wrote a book with this title in the heady era of the discovery of quantum mechanics.

Perhaps, as Wallace Stevens, the modern poet par excellence, wrote in the late 1940s, "The spirit comes from the body of the world" and carries forward the expression, the elaboration, of the world as lived," to which MA replied:

Which is why I said "...rather than"-- I agree with you wholeheartedly.

It seems we both need to work toward clearer expressions of what we understand to be the seeds or roots of consciousness since we do not "agree" at all about what they are. You seem to have read Stevens's stratement that "the spirit comes from the body of the world" as confirming your agreement with Metzinger's hypothesis that consciousness arises not from our embodiment as sensing beings open to and responsive to direct experience in and of the world in which we are biologically embedded, but rather that consciousness responds to "self-modeled epistemic spaces" turning up in the brain alone and presenting us with representational models of 'self' and 'world'.

I've now read several papers by Metzinger identified in his reference notes to the paper @Soupie linked and am beginning to understand the radical nature of his proposals. Interestingly he continues to use the term 'phenomenology' but only in his restricted and I think falsifying way. I do find some of his claims to be interesting, if wrong, and recognize that he is a system-builder par excellence. The question each consciousness researcher needs to ask himself or herself, once recognizing what he is claiming, is 'how can I make sense of my own experience within Metzinger's system?' Perhaps you can still persuade us that we should attempt to do so? If so, I think you need to work at being a clearer expositor of what he writes.
 
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continuing to MA . . . I have a few questions to ask based on your response to the paper @Soupie linked:


Amusing

"""
Call this the “contraction principle”:

(CP) “Phenomenality” is a property of certain integrated, global brain states. The brains of neurotypical human beings misrepresent this objectively given property of phenomenality by contracting it into a transparent conscious self-model, which then forms the origin of a first-person perspective.
"""

My first question is why you find the paper "amusing"? Or were you referring to something else, and if so what is/was it?

My second question is what Metzinger means in the underscored statement above? Is he implying, without stating, that neuro-diverse human beings correctly represent "this objectively given property of phenomenality"? And if so, why and how do they do so? Is there some source available in which Metzinger makes the case he is only implying in this paper? Since you are the only person here who follows and propounds Metzinger's hypotheses, we will have to look to you for clarifications. :)
 
Further information re Metzinger and his followers' working hypothesis can be found in this current call for papers announced at the 'brain blog'. There appears to be a Manifesto for this working group, which is linked at this site. I reached this site by searching for this reference from the notes to one of Metz's papers: "Metzinger, T., & Millière, R. (2020). Special Topic: Radical disruptions of self-consciousness" which opens here:

CFP: Selfless Minds: Radical Disruptions of Self-Consciousness
 
What is a person? Potentially relevant to the notion of creating consciouness without understading it.

A thought experiement:

Humans have the techlogical ability fully replicate humans. They can be authentic (biological) and synthetic (artificial) replications.

If both claim to be conscious, then what? If one or the other claims to be conscious, then what?


"The reason there are two concepts of book is that books are easy to copy. There was a time when copying books rarely occurred. We can imagine debates, in that ancient time, about the identity of books. The potential confusion between the two concepts of book is illustrated by the little story with which I began this post.

There is more to that story than confusion of two concepts with the same name. The old librarian’s confusion lay in losing sight of what is important about books. What is important about a book continues to exist as long as at least one copy of the book exists. Any copy will do.

I suggest that when persons become easy to copy, as they will when we develop the scanning/replicating technology that supports teleportation, we will start to distinguish between two kinds of entities that we now tend to conflate. We use the word “person” for both. One kind has the identity conditions of human organisms; indeed, a ‘person’ in this sense is (identically) a biological organism. The other kind of ‘person’ is the sort of thing that can cross spatio-temporal gaps, and can branch. This sort of person can survive teleportation and duplication. Like a book, this sort of person can survive destruction of one ‘copy’ if another ‘copy’ exists, or can be constructed on the basis of stored information. And most of what is important about persons will be true of this sort of person. Because this concept captures what is most important about persons, I recommend using the word “person” to refer to this kind of (potentially gappy, potentially branching) entity, rather than to the biological organism.

Persons are, I claim, like books (the intellectual work, not the bound volume) in that a good copy preserves what is most important. A book can exist in one or several copies, in one medium or different media. It is only destroyed if all copies are destroyed.

Books are, of course, unlike persons in many ways. Books are not conscious. Neither are they alive. They do not change, much. The fact that a book does not change, much, after it comes into existence makes it relatively easy for us to answer questions of the form, “Is a the same book as b?” If a and b have the same author, and the same, or almost the same, word content, then a and b are the same book. The concept of a book does allow for some changes, including typographical corrections and the modest addenda that may be found in successive editions. If the differences between editions are important to us, we have no difficulty in making ourselves clear. (“I am in the market for a first edition, signed by the author.” “The passage I quoted is on p. 394 of the 1990 edition.”) But for most of our book-related questions, like “Have you read Moby Dick?”, edition doesn’t matter."
 
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