Consciousness and the Paranormal — Part 12

[Soupie]

Is there a necessary set of cells or even number of cells required for consciousness or could it be somewhat fractal, so that the structure for consciousness can be instantiated in a dwindling number of cells, atoms or whatever? In other words, how do you know only one child would ever be conscious? Maybe I can lose a whole bunch of cells by count without a change in consciousness.

That’s a very good question and one that we all likely disagree on. Does human consciousness arise at the level of atoms, molecules, cells, multicellular, or neural networks. I lean toward neural networks.

But that means organisms without NNs don’t have minds?

 

[smcder]

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/227839.pdf

According to this some atoms stay with us for a long time. Maybe a lifetime? Still searching.

by the way, i am making you a Lord Russell action figure

 

[Soupie]

stop searching, answer questions!!

lord vader commands

What questions?

 

[smcder]

That’s a very good question and one that we all likely disagree on. Does human consciousness arise at the level of atoms, molecules, cells, multicellular, or neural networks. I lean toward neural networks.

But that means organisms without NNs don’t have minds?

you're stalling ... ;-)

 

[smcder]

What questions?

there are probably a dozen up there, do you not read my posts, thoroughly?? ;-)

 

[smcder]

I have to go in and eat dinner now, maybe I can come out later.

 

[Soupie]

there are probably a dozen up there, do you not read my posts, thoroughly?? ;-)

Put them all in one post please. Sometimes the lybseem rhetorical.

 

[smcder]

 

[Soupie]

Put them all in one post please. Sometimes the lybseem rhetorical.

I’m trying to see how quarrels my papaya can be and you can still red them

 

[smcder]

Put them all in one post please. Sometimes the lybseem rhetorical.

Nope, too much work.

 

[smcder]

I’m trying to see how quarrels my papaya can be and you can still red them

Well, you have your answer.

 

[Soupie]

That’s a very good question and one that we all likely disagree on. Does human consciousness arise at the level of atoms, molecules, cells, multicellular, or neural networks. I lean toward neural networks.

But that means organisms without NNs don’t have minds?

These “things” (thinks) May all be human concepts and not true carvings of nature.

 

[smcder]

These “things” (thinks) May all be human concepts and not true carvings of nature.

Me thinks you are mixing your carvings and your joints.

 

[Soupie]

Me thinks you are mixing your carvings and your joints.

My brain has a habit of doing that. I’m not taking the blame for it.

 

[Randall]

Atomic Tune-Up: How the Body Rejuvenates Itself

For most people, a makeover means losing weight and getting new clothes, hairstyle and makeup. But the body does its own extreme makeover each year, regularly replacing 98 percent of its atoms. The atomic makeover prompts a more philosophical question: Are people still themselves if their atoms...

www.npr.org

But what they may not know is that the body does its own extreme makeover regularly. In fact, 98 percent of the atoms in the body are replaced yearly.

Okay. Now we're getting down to the level of atoms instead of cells. This is where things get fuzzier. I would contend that once a person's biological systems take possession of new building blocks at the atomic or molecular level, then they become part of the person, and therefore, when they are used by the person's system's to repair or add to existing structures, the resulting structures are still 100% made of the the person's own materials, and therefore continuity of personhood in every respect is retained.

I suppose the question then becomes, at what level of complexity are we to suppose that a person's systems can take custody of something? The Darth Vader ( ship of Theseus ) allusion above is a really good example of that particular problem. But let's suppose the ship of Theseus is something much more complex, something capable of absorbing seawater and turning it into replacement parts all by itself on a microscopic scale. What then? At what point does the ship become the sea?

 

[Soupie]

Keep going ... because the interesting questions lie in how you know what to copy. How would you know you had built an exact matter duplicating machine? How would you know it duplicated all matter? How do we know we have detected all matter? Suppose there are gagabluons(tm) that we know nothing about and we copy everything but the gagabluons and ... either 1) what a mess or 2) evil Kirk? or 3) Zombie Kirk.

On your view, how do you know?

My view is that we don’t know, at all. Our perceptions are models of what-is. I think our models are very course grained. So we probably would leave stuff out.

The questions is levels though. If we can copy what we need at a course grained level, then we’re fine. If our course grain copying misses fine grained important stuff, then we’re not. We don’t know. I agree.

They would be valuable to the extent that there are no other copies (i.e. if we suddenly found copies where we thought none existed) One is invaluable, two is very very very valuable, etc. See the Dead Sea Scrolls which in a very short time were available in mass edition paperback for a $1.25.

My argument is not about value. My argument is that a copy of the pattern is what’s important, not what the pattern is embodied in. A copy of a book from LOA is just as objectively valuable as the original.

And that's an interesting case. I can argue life extension here but the judges will recognize consequences in other kinds of cases. However, they still have to deal with the identical person as an individual, what is he entitled to? What do you think? How long would he live though if he is an identical copy to a dying man?? ;-)

The man is dying because he slipped on a banana peel.

Why wouldn't destroying the original be ethical?

Also, why isn't aging a grounds for divorce? When you get a divorce the lawyer asks for cause - it really can be anything, but if I said, well, sir, I married my wife seven years ago today and today everything in her body, which is everything she is, has been replaced and I am certainly not going to remain married to a stranger!

It’s unethical for the same reasons murder is unethical.

I’d love to see someone make that argument in court.

It’s not unlike the joke about the man who approaches another man on the street and says: “hey bill, you’ve gotten taller. And shaved your head. You wear glasses now!”

“My name’s Sam!”

“I’ll be, you even changed your name!”

@Soupie this is in relation to my questions above:

1. if we apply this process to a cup of hot coffee, is the copy also hot?
2. do we know that an atom or quark by quark replacement process will carry over that which maintains the pattern?

This is a very important problem and one that our dear technicians may not be able to overcome. I’m not sure that the direction and momentum of a quark in an atom in a molecule in a cell in an organ in a body can e copied. But then again I’m not sure it couldn’t.

Could a cup of hot coffee even be copied, yes, good question. It may turn out to be more complex in its own way then a brain.

 

[Soupie]

And that's an interesting case. I can argue life extension here but the judges will recognize consequences in other kinds of cases. However, they still have to deal with the identical person as an individual, what is he entitled to? What do you think? How long would he live though if he is an identical copy to a dying man?? ;-)

Based on the laws we have today, he’s be entitele to nothing. However if copying ever became a thing, I’m sure there would be legal and social rules for entitlement.

 

[Soupie]

And that's an interesting case. I can argue life extension here but the judges will recognize consequences in other kinds of cases. However, they still have to deal with the identical person as an individual, what is he entitled to? What do you think? How long would he live though if he is an identical copy to a dying man?? ;-)

The very wealthy have a copy of themselves backed up every hour or so.

 

[smcder]

The very wealthy have a copy of themselves backed up every hour or so.

So the last copy is < hour before his death?? Or can he go back to previous backup?Backups(?) so that he can contest his own will?

 

[smcder]

Based on the laws we have today, he’s be entitele to nothing. However if copying ever became a thing, I’m sure there would be legal and social rules for entitlement.

Now he's a lawyer ... ;-)