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Consciousness and the Paranormal — Part 2

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Pharoah wrote: . . .
6. reaching concrete conclusions?... I think the only way to find out if this is possible, would be to give it a go. If you give me some text, or a concept, I would look at it and make some suggestions about what could be done with it. I have not done this kind of thing with a group before but hey ho, I'd give it a go.

I'd rather that you present an exemplary text from which you are able to draw the kind of concrete conclusions you look for.

Or, if you don't wish to do that, why not use this first section of the SEP article Steve cited today concerning prereflective self-awareness. Here it is:


"1] In line with Edmund Husserl (1959, 189, 412), who maintains that consciousness always involves a self-appearance (Für-sich-selbst-erscheinens), and in agreement with Michel Henry (1963, 1965), who notes that experience is always self-manifesting, and with Maurice Merleau-Ponty who states that consciousness is always given to itself and that the word ‘consciousness’ has no meaning independently of this self-givenness (Merleau-Ponty 1945, 488), Jean-Paul Sartre writes that pre-reflective self-consciousness is not simply a quality added to the experience, an accessory; rather, it constitutes the very mode of being of the experience:

This self-consciousness we ought to consider not as a new consciousness, but as the only mode of existence which is possible for a consciousness of something (Sartre 1943, 20 [1956, liv]).

The notion of pre-reflective self-awareness is related to the idea that experiences have a subjective ‘feel’ to them, a certain (phenomenal) quality of ‘what it is like’ or what it ‘feels’ like to have them. As it is usually expressed outside of phenomenological texts, to undergo a conscious experience necessarily means that there is something it is like for the subject to have that experience (Nagel 1974; Searle 1992). This is obviously true of bodily sensations like pain. But it is also the case for perceptual experiences, experiences of desiring, feeling, and thinking. There is something it is like to taste chocolate, and this is different from what it is like to remember what it is like to taste chocolate, or to smell vanilla, to run, to stand still, to feel envious, nervous, depressed or happy, or to entertain an abstract belief. Yet, at the same time, as I live through these differences, there is something experiential that is, in some sense, the same, namely, their distinct first-personal character. All the experiences are characterized by a quality of mineness or for-me-ness, the fact that it is I who am having these experiences. All the experiences are given (at least tacitly) as my experiences, as experiences I am undergoing or living through. All of this suggests that first-person experience presents me with an immediate and non-observational access to myself, and that consequently (phenomenal) consciousness consequently entails a (minimal) form of self-consciousness. To put it differently, unless a mental process is pre-reflectively self-conscious there will be nothing it is like to undergo the process, and it therefore cannot be a phenomenally conscious process.

The mineness in question is not a quality like being scarlet, sour or soft. It doesn't refer to a specific experiential content, to a specific what; nor does it refer to the diachronic or synchronic sum of such content, or to some other relation that might obtain between the contents in question. Rather, it refers to the distinct givenness or the how it feels of experience. It refers to the first-personal presence or character of experience. It refers to the fact that the experiences I am living through are given differently (but not necessarily better) to me than to anybody else. It could consequently be claimed that anybody who denies the for-me-ness of experience simply fails to recognize an essential constitutive aspect of experience. Such a denial would be tantamount to a denial of the first-person perspective. It would entail the view that my own mind is either not given to me at all — I would be mind- or self-blind — or is presented to me in exactly the same way as the minds of others.

There are also lines of argumentation in contemporary analytical philosophy of mind that are close to and consistent with the phenomenological conception of pre-reflective self-awareness. Alvin Goldman provides an example:

[Consider] the case of thinking about x or attending to x. In the process of thinking about x there is already an implicit awareness that one is thinking about x. There is no need for reflection here, for taking a step back from thinking about x in order to examine it…When we are thinking about x, the mind is focused on x, not on our thinking of x. Nevertheless, the process of thinking about x carries with it a non-reflective self-awareness (Goldman 1970, 96).

A similar view has been defended by Owen Flanagan, who not only argues that consciousness involves self-consciousness in the weak sense that there is something it is like for the subject to have the experience, but also speaks of the low-level self-consciousness involved in experiencing my experiences as mine (Flanagan 1992, 194). As Flanagan quite correctly points out, this primary type of self-consciousness should not be confused with the much stronger notion of self-consciousness that is in play when we are thinking about our own narrative self. The latter form of reflective self-consciousness presupposes both conceptual knowledge and narrative competence. It requires maturation and socialization, and the ability to access and issue reports about the states, traits, dispositions that make one the person one is. To claim that every kind of self-consciousness is conceptual is overly cognitive. Bermúdez (1998), to mention one further philosopher in the analytic tradition, argues that there are a variety of nonconceptual forms of self-consciousness that are “logically and ontogenetically more primitive than the higher forms of self-consciousness that are usually the focus of philosophical debate” (1998, 274; also see Poellner 2003). This growing consensus across philosophical studies supports the phenomenological view of pre-reflective self-consciousness.
That pre-reflective self-awareness is implicit, then, means that I am not confronted with a thematic or explicit awareness of the experience as belonging to myself. Rather we are dealing with a non-observational self-acquaintance. Here is how Heidegger and Sartre put the point:

Dasein [human existence] as existing, is there for itself, even when the ego does not expressly direct itself to itself in the manner of its own peculiar turning around and turning back, which in phenomenology is called inner perception as contrasted with outer. The self is there for the Dasein itself without reflection and without inner perception, before all reflection. Reflection, in the sense of a turning back, is only a mode of self-apprehension, but not the mode of primary self-disclosure (Heidegger 1989, 226 [1982, 159]).

In other words, every positional consciousness of an object is at the same time a non-positional consciousness of itself. If I count the cigarettes which are in that case, I have the impression of disclosing an objective property of this collection of cigarettes: they are a dozen. This property appears to my consciousness as a property existing in the world. It is very possible that I have no positional consciousness of counting them. Then I do not know myself as counting. Yet at the moment when these cigarettes are revealed to me as a dozen, I have a non-thetic consciousness of my adding activity. If anyone questioned me, indeed, if anyone should ask, “What are you doing there?” I should reply at once, “I am counting.” (Sartre 1943, 19–20 [1956, liii]).

It is clarifying to compare the phenomenological notion of pre-reflective self-consciousness with the one defended by Brentano. According to Brentano as I listen to a melody I am aware that I am listening to the melody. He acknowledges that I do not have two different mental states: my consciousness of the melody is one and the same as my awareness of perceiving it; they constitute one single psychical phenomenon. On this point, and in opposition to higher-order representation theories, Brentano and the phenomenologists are in general agreement. But for Brentano, by means of this unified mental state, I have an awareness of two objects: the melody and my perceptual experience.

In the same mental phenomenon in which the sound is present to our minds we simultaneously apprehend the mental phenomenon itself. What is more, we apprehend it in accordance with its dual nature insofar as it has the sound as content within it, and insofar as it has itself as content at the same time. We can say that the sound is the primary object of the act of hearing, and that the act of hearing itself is the secondary object (Brentano 1874, 179–180 [1973, 127–128]).

Husserl disagrees on just this point, as do Sartre and Heidegger: my awareness of my experience is not an awareness of it as an object.[2] My awareness is non-objectifying in the sense that I do not occupy the position or perspective of a spectator or in(tro)spector who attends to this experience in a thematic way. That a psychological state is experienced, “and is in this sense conscious, does not and cannot mean that this is the object of an act of consciousness, in the sense that a perception, a presentation or a judgment is directed upon it” (Husserl 1984a, 165 [2001, I, 273]). In pre-reflective self-awareness, experience is given, not as an object, but precisely as subjective experience. For phenomenologists, intentional experience is lived through (erlebt), but does not appear in an objectified manner. Experience is conscious of itself without being the intentional object of consciousness (Husserl 1984b, 399; Sartre 1936, 28–29). That we are aware of our lived experiences even if we do not direct our attention towards them is not to deny that we can direct our attention towards our experiences, and thereby take them as objects of reflection (Husserl 1984b, 424).

To have a self-experience does not entail the apprehension of a special self-object; it does not entail the existence of a special experience of a self alongside other experiences but different from them. To be aware of oneself is not to capture a pure self that exists separately from the stream of experience, rather it is to be conscious of one's experience in its implicit first-person mode of givenness. When Hume, in a famous passage in A Treatise of Human Nature, declares that he cannot find a self when he searches his experiences, but finds only particular perceptions or feelings (Hume 1739), it could be argued that he overlooks something in his analysis, namely the specific givenness of his own experiences. Indeed, he was looking only among his own experiences, and seemingly recognized them as his own, and could do so only on the basis of that immediate self-awareness that he seemed to miss. As C.O. Evans puts it: “[F]rom the fact that the self is not an object of experience it does not follow that it is non-experiential” (Evans 1970, 145). Accordingly, we should not think of the self, in this most basic sense, as a substance, or as some kind of ineffable transcendental precondition, or as a social construct that gets generated through time; rather it is an integral part of conscious life, with an immediate experiential character.

One advantage of the phenomenological view is that it is capable of accounting for psychological self-identity, that is, the experience of self-identity through time, without actually having to posit the self as a separate entity over and above the stream of consciousness (see the discussion of time-consciousness in section 3 below). Although we live through a number of different experiences, the experiencing itself remains a constant in regard to whose experience it is. This is not accounted for by a substantial self or a mental theater. There is no pure or empty field of consciousness upon which the concrete experiences subsequently make their entry. The field of experiencing is nothing apart from the specific experiences. Yet we are naturally inclined to distinguish the strict singularity of an experience from the continuous stream of changing experiences. What remains constant and consistent across these changes is the sense of ownership constituted by pre-reflective self-awareness. Only a being with this sense of ownership or mineness could go on to form concepts about herself, consider her own aims, ideals, and aspirations as her own, construct stories about herself, and plan and execute actions for which she will take responsibility."

Phenomenological Approaches to Self-Consciousness (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

 
@Steve, do you remember what first sparked your interest in phenomenology in Part 1 of this thead (some extract, or post, or linked paper)? I'm asking because I'm trying to think of a text that might draw Pharoah into phenomenology.

I'll try to have a look back and see ...

I know I made several attempts and failed, and really only with Heidegger - reading Being and Time and commentaries AND listening to Dreyfus did I just recently start. to have aha moments.

But that's how it is with me, it was like that with mathematics ... I really grope around in the dark with a new subject, especially reading - I do better hearing it or in dialogue ... But the more I can set aside any assumptions and just take it in on its own terms the quicker I can come to bear on it.
 
I'm not aware that anyone has explained "why and how the first- person perspective must exist, etc." What have I missed?

Re the underscored clause, a phenomenologically trained psychologist or psychiatrist might be concerned to understand the nature of a particular patient's operative, characteristic, 'first-person perspective' on particular problems in his/her life and/or toward life in general. Such a practitioner would seek to explore the life experiences that have led the patient to take his/her dominant approach to others and/or to his/her own life situation. And such a practitioner would also be aware of the effects of subconscious ideations and issues influencing the patient's perceptions, understanding that many of our motivations, fears and anxieties, and dysfunctions lie beneath the level of waking consciousness.

By contrast, phenomenologists pursuing an understanding of the nature of consciousness through philosophical insights and deliberations are not in the business of analyzing the consciousness of particular individuals in order to 'explain' their first-person perspectives. Merleau-Ponty, the most brilliant and satisfying phenomenological philosopher in my opinion, wrote his dissertation at the Sorbonne on the subject of child psychology, opposing then-dominant Behaviorist psychology by employing the insights of Gestalt psychology. The diss. was published under the title Structures of Behavior. He then wrote the Phenomenology of Perception pursuing the nature of perception in a world in which we interact with the phenomenal appearances of things (and others) which provide our access to understanding the nature of lived reality, including the nature of consciousness itself. The works that followed developed all of his ideas more deeply and more intricately.

Right. We couldn't account at all for a given atom's first-person perspective or generalize at all about how atoms sense, feel {are affected by}, and 'think' their world and their being in it (if they have these capacities). By contrast, we have access to numberless representations/expressions of the ways in which humans have experienced their lived realities in the history of our species. As individuals we can comprehend the ways in which we personally experience our own lived reality and we can recognize both differences and similarities in the ways in which those around us experience the same or similar situations. The 'stream of consciousness' that arose in modern fiction developed alongside the development of phenomenology as a means of expressing the complex interior life of human characters carried out in relation to their embedded relationships with others existing in their social, cultural, political mileau. Phenomenology is as much about the lived worlds of humans as it is about their conscious (and subconscious) participation in them. Phenomenological analyses of consciousness as lived in the actual world we exist in have led to the ability to identify and distinguish 'authentic' behavior from inauthentic behavior. From this you might get an idea of the concerns of phenomenological philosophy, but for an understanding of the epistemologies and ontologies it has produced you would need to immerse yourself in some of the major texts.

I hope my brief remarks above help to clarify why your question does not actually 'make sense' as applied to the philosophy and methodologies of phenomenology.

Would you restate what you see as "different problems"? You might have identified them in an earlier post but I'm not remembering where.

This answer, is an example of a passage that could be scrutinised.
a) First paragraph is fine except perhaps it supports my notion that there is a distinction between first-person explanation (why and how) and explanations of the particularity of the individuated self.
b)Second paragraph is fine except:
i)I would explore the idea, that "interacting with the phenomenal appearances..." is assuming a first-person stance through the eyes of an individual stance (which I recognise is not how you see it but is scrutinisable and relatable to particular passages of writing)
ii) "provide our access to understanding the nature ... of consciousness itself". The nature of consciousness is more understood. Understood as explained or described or what? (exploring the understanding that arises from this approach)
c) the third paragraph further supports my notion that phenomenology is not on the same track as an attempted reductive explanation of first-person perspective and therefore of the phenomenon of experience. (another debatable topic)
 
ps: one of the SEP entries concerning phenomenology presents its project as identifying 'structures of consciousness', which is a good orientation with which to begin a reading of phenomenological philosophy.
The structure of consciousness and its description is fine and important. This is not what I understand to be what an explanation is about.
 
Pharoah wrote:

1. btw. I like this article on reductive explanation:
Serious Metaphysics and the Vindication of Reductions | Janice Dowell - Academia.edu

I'd seen that title and will read the paper.


5. What would I like to see discussed? I don't think I should choose something because I am more peripheral that others and I am obsessed with HCT. I am intrigued by Soupie's idea that information is relevant to consciousness and it is something I feel strongly about. You Constance, most probably could find a phenomenology passage (or even one line) that would get the ideas and questions flowing. I am sure people on this forum have expressed ideas that have not been reviewed in the kind of detail that could be instructive.

I'd like to see you try a post (a longish one if necessary) in which you summarize the reasons why you pursue a hierarchical construct theory rather than one of the other theories pursued in the CS field. It could clarify what you reject and what you accept relative to those other approaches. It would certainly help me out, for one.

Re the application of information theory to consciousness, no question it's relevant. But there's more than one kind of information theory and more than one interpretation of what constitutes 'information' and how information works in nature in general and specifically how it accounts for consciousness. This is obviously an approach that needs development and definition.

I've asked Steve if he can identify what citations or extracts I posted in part 1 of this thread that first interested him in pursuing phenomenology. I'm doing a personal brain search now to see if I can recall a passage/passages that first stimulated my own interest in phenomenology, but there's no guarantee that it would do the same for you or Soupie.


6. reaching concrete conclusions?... I think the only way to find out if this is possible, would be to give it a go. If you give me some text, or a concept, I would look at it and make some suggestions about what could be done with it. I have not done this kind of thing with a group before but hey ho, I'd give it a go.

I'd rather that you present an exemplary text from which you are able to draw the kind of concrete conclusions you look for.
A long post summarizing HCT vs others. HCT is the most coherent theory by a long margin. I am continually working on the clarification and comparative evaluation of HCT vs others. It is what I do all day long lol.
Information is too broad a subject for discussion... that is a good call.
Exemplary texts... sections from my comparative evaluation of Dennett, Tye and Searle are starting points perhaps.
 
Can you tell more about mastermind groups? That sounds interesting. I was reading something on Socratic dialogue -

http://phiorg.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Examined-Life.pdf

Starting at the Fourth paragraph ... just describing the Socratic dialogue, the yes/no method you describe sounds like the "modified" Socratic method they used on us in law school. But not exactly ... the point is I'm also interested in methods and so I want to know more about mastermind groups as well as your own methods and I like the idea of focusing on one topic here on the thread.

"I prefer to close in on ideas and hack them till they can't move."

... sounds like the patient dies in this case too! ;-)

I can relate to the taking ages to read and write ... I struggle with this too and have long thought I have some kind of dyslexia or other difficulty.

1. MasterMind groups:
Business communities do mastermind groups. They are private and confidential. They discuss members' business strategies and implementations etc. They have a chairperson, regular meetings online and in person, they pay for administrators to arrange meetings and finance resources for the group. They can cost 10s of thousands to join because they work. They are supportive, analytical, connecting.

2. the yes/no method:
peer review is a rubbish way to do philosophy, as are conferences. The ancient Greeks had something better, that is for sure. You see Dennett being quizzed by Hameroff at the Tuscon conference and he is allowed to wriggle away from questions. I would want to take one of DD's statements, get the best philosophers on the planet to drill down on the statement - in a room together! - Yes no prevents wriggle. That is the kind of philosophical masterminding I would expect the Greeks to have been up to. Everyone on equal terms, open immediate dialogue, focal analytical consideration, openness to new ideas and disciplines. I don't know what I am talking about really, but it is worth thinking about.

The patent dies and goes to heaven - but a better person and looking a bit better for it ;)

Dyslexia is a short term memory disability for many. If organising life is a problem, if you are above average intelligence, if your eyes have to re-read lines/words over and over (eyes moving from side to side) then maybe you are laterally gifted like all dyslexics.
 
So where and when does the physical "input" become or get "translated into" subjective experience? You seem to be suggesting that it does.

My contention is that the "pattern" of input is the phenomenal experience.

Did you try the experiment?

Your first question is the $64 question.y point is just that we shouldn't be surprised that we can get an electrical impulse to feel like an arm ... but also remember there is active participation by the person, they know it's not their arm and so their attitude toward it has some effect, you make that point about the arbitrariness of qualia. You get used to things, you forget how things were and you get a new normal.
 
Or, if you don't wish to do that, why not use this first section of the SEP article Steve cited today concerning prereflective self-awareness. Here it is:


"1] In line with Edmund Husserl (1959, 189, 412), who maintains that consciousness always involves a self-appearance (Für-sich-selbst-erscheinens), and in agreement with Michel Henry (1963, 1965), who notes that experience is always self-manifesting, and with Maurice Merleau-Ponty who states that consciousness is always given to itself and that the word ‘consciousness’ has no meaning independently of this self-givenness (Merleau-Ponty 1945, 488), Jean-Paul Sartre writes that pre-reflective self-consciousness is not simply a quality added to the experience, an accessory; rather, it constitutes the very mode of being of the experience:

This self-consciousness we ought to consider not as a new consciousness, but as the only mode of existence which is possible for a consciousness of something (Sartre 1943, 20 [1956, liv]).

The notion of pre-reflective self-awareness is related to the idea that experiences have a subjective ‘feel’ to them, a certain (phenomenal) quality of ‘what it is like’ or what it ‘feels’ like to have them. As it is usually expressed outside of phenomenological texts, to undergo a conscious experience necessarily means that there is something it is like for the subject to have that experience (Nagel 1974; Searle 1992). This is obviously true of bodily sensations like pain. But it is also the case for perceptual experiences, experiences of desiring, feeling, and thinking. There is something it is like to taste chocolate, and this is different from what it is like to remember what it is like to taste chocolate, or to smell vanilla, to run, to stand still, to feel envious, nervous, depressed or happy, or to entertain an abstract belief. Yet, at the same time, as I live through these differences, there is something experiential that is, in some sense, the same, namely, their distinct first-personal character. All the experiences are characterized by a quality of mineness or for-me-ness, the fact that it is I who am having these experiences. All the experiences are given (at least tacitly) as my experiences, as experiences I am undergoing or living through. All of this suggests that first-person experience presents me with an immediate and non-observational access to myself, and that consequently (phenomenal) consciousness consequently entails a (minimal) form of self-consciousness. To put it differently, unless a mental process is pre-reflectively self-conscious there will be nothing it is like to undergo the process, and it therefore cannot be a phenomenally conscious process.

The mineness in question is not a quality like being scarlet, sour or soft. It doesn't refer to a specific experiential content, to a specific what; nor does it refer to the diachronic or synchronic sum of such content, or to some other relation that might obtain between the contents in question. Rather, it refers to the distinct givenness or the how it feels of experience. It refers to the first-personal presence or character of experience. It refers to the fact that the experiences I am living through are given differently (but not necessarily better) to me than to anybody else. It could consequently be claimed that anybody who denies the for-me-ness of experience simply fails to recognize an essential constitutive aspect of experience. Such a denial would be tantamount to a denial of the first-person perspective. It would entail the view that my own mind is either not given to me at all — I would be mind- or self-blind — or is presented to me in exactly the same way as the minds of others.

There are also lines of argumentation in contemporary analytical philosophy of mind that are close to and consistent with the phenomenological conception of pre-reflective self-awareness. Alvin Goldman provides an example:

[Consider] the case of thinking about x or attending to x. In the process of thinking about x there is already an implicit awareness that one is thinking about x. There is no need for reflection here, for taking a step back from thinking about x in order to examine it…When we are thinking about x, the mind is focused on x, not on our thinking of x. Nevertheless, the process of thinking about x carries with it a non-reflective self-awareness (Goldman 1970, 96).

A similar view has been defended by Owen Flanagan, who not only argues that consciousness involves self-consciousness in the weak sense that there is something it is like for the subject to have the experience, but also speaks of the low-level self-consciousness involved in experiencing my experiences as mine (Flanagan 1992, 194). As Flanagan quite correctly points out, this primary type of self-consciousness should not be confused with the much stronger notion of self-consciousness that is in play when we are thinking about our own narrative self. The latter form of reflective self-consciousness presupposes both conceptual knowledge and narrative competence. It requires maturation and socialization, and the ability to access and issue reports about the states, traits, dispositions that make one the person one is. To claim that every kind of self-consciousness is conceptual is overly cognitive. Bermúdez (1998), to mention one further philosopher in the analytic tradition, argues that there are a variety of nonconceptual forms of self-consciousness that are “logically and ontogenetically more primitive than the higher forms of self-consciousness that are usually the focus of philosophical debate” (1998, 274; also see Poellner 2003). This growing consensus across philosophical studies supports the phenomenological view of pre-reflective self-consciousness.
That pre-reflective self-awareness is implicit, then, means that I am not confronted with a thematic or explicit awareness of the experience as belonging to myself. Rather we are dealing with a non-observational self-acquaintance. Here is how Heidegger and Sartre put the point:

Dasein [human existence] as existing, is there for itself, even when the ego does not expressly direct itself to itself in the manner of its own peculiar turning around and turning back, which in phenomenology is called inner perception as contrasted with outer. The self is there for the Dasein itself without reflection and without inner perception, before all reflection. Reflection, in the sense of a turning back, is only a mode of self-apprehension, but not the mode of primary self-disclosure (Heidegger 1989, 226 [1982, 159]).

In other words, every positional consciousness of an object is at the same time a non-positional consciousness of itself. If I count the cigarettes which are in that case, I have the impression of disclosing an objective property of this collection of cigarettes: they are a dozen. This property appears to my consciousness as a property existing in the world. It is very possible that I have no positional consciousness of counting them. Then I do not know myself as counting. Yet at the moment when these cigarettes are revealed to me as a dozen, I have a non-thetic consciousness of my adding activity. If anyone questioned me, indeed, if anyone should ask, “What are you doing there?” I should reply at once, “I am counting.” (Sartre 1943, 19–20 [1956, liii]).

It is clarifying to compare the phenomenological notion of pre-reflective self-consciousness with the one defended by Brentano. According to Brentano as I listen to a melody I am aware that I am listening to the melody. He acknowledges that I do not have two different mental states: my consciousness of the melody is one and the same as my awareness of perceiving it; they constitute one single psychical phenomenon. On this point, and in opposition to higher-order representation theories, Brentano and the phenomenologists are in general agreement. But for Brentano, by means of this unified mental state, I have an awareness of two objects: the melody and my perceptual experience.

In the same mental phenomenon in which the sound is present to our minds we simultaneously apprehend the mental phenomenon itself. What is more, we apprehend it in accordance with its dual nature insofar as it has the sound as content within it, and insofar as it has itself as content at the same time. We can say that the sound is the primary object of the act of hearing, and that the act of hearing itself is the secondary object (Brentano 1874, 179–180 [1973, 127–128]).

Husserl disagrees on just this point, as do Sartre and Heidegger: my awareness of my experience is not an awareness of it as an object.[2] My awareness is non-objectifying in the sense that I do not occupy the position or perspective of a spectator or in(tro)spector who attends to this experience in a thematic way. That a psychological state is experienced, “and is in this sense conscious, does not and cannot mean that this is the object of an act of consciousness, in the sense that a perception, a presentation or a judgment is directed upon it” (Husserl 1984a, 165 [2001, I, 273]). In pre-reflective self-awareness, experience is given, not as an object, but precisely as subjective experience. For phenomenologists, intentional experience is lived through (erlebt), but does not appear in an objectified manner. Experience is conscious of itself without being the intentional object of consciousness (Husserl 1984b, 399; Sartre 1936, 28–29). That we are aware of our lived experiences even if we do not direct our attention towards them is not to deny that we can direct our attention towards our experiences, and thereby take them as objects of reflection (Husserl 1984b, 424).

To have a self-experience does not entail the apprehension of a special self-object; it does not entail the existence of a special experience of a self alongside other experiences but different from them. To be aware of oneself is not to capture a pure self that exists separately from the stream of experience, rather it is to be conscious of one's experience in its implicit first-person mode of givenness. When Hume, in a famous passage in A Treatise of Human Nature, declares that he cannot find a self when he searches his experiences, but finds only particular perceptions or feelings (Hume 1739), it could be argued that he overlooks something in his analysis, namely the specific givenness of his own experiences. Indeed, he was looking only among his own experiences, and seemingly recognized them as his own, and could do so only on the basis of that immediate self-awareness that he seemed to miss. As C.O. Evans puts it: “[F]rom the fact that the self is not an object of experience it does not follow that it is non-experiential” (Evans 1970, 145). Accordingly, we should not think of the self, in this most basic sense, as a substance, or as some kind of ineffable transcendental precondition, or as a social construct that gets generated through time; rather it is an integral part of conscious life, with an immediate experiential character.

One advantage of the phenomenological view is that it is capable of accounting for psychological self-identity, that is, the experience of self-identity through time, without actually having to posit the self as a separate entity over and above the stream of consciousness (see the discussion of time-consciousness in section 3 below). Although we live through a number of different experiences, the experiencing itself remains a constant in regard to whose experience it is. This is not accounted for by a substantial self or a mental theater. There is no pure or empty field of consciousness upon which the concrete experiences subsequently make their entry. The field of experiencing is nothing apart from the specific experiences. Yet we are naturally inclined to distinguish the strict singularity of an experience from the continuous stream of changing experiences. What remains constant and consistent across these changes is the sense of ownership constituted by pre-reflective self-awareness. Only a being with this sense of ownership or mineness could go on to form concepts about herself, consider her own aims, ideals, and aspirations as her own, construct stories about herself, and plan and execute actions for which she will take responsibility."

Phenomenological Approaches to Self-Consciousness (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

That is a long passage of text.
First thing is to divide it into sections and number them.
What then are the key questions arising from any given section, i.e. the questions people want to ask of it? Or the things people want others to take from it?
 
What's so scary about explanation?
I can understand why it was a problem for the early church; threatening the fabric of religious doctrine.
But in a secular society, what is the motivation for the denial of explanation? - perhaps hankering for something to believe in...
This forum excels in the art of avoiding critical analysis. Everytime it gets remotely close, it swerves off. It is like the footballer running toward the goal and missing because the excitement of trying is more compelling that achieving the aim. Is the bond of running around the pitch together excitedly greater than realising the purpose of the activity?
One of the techniques I have employed with myself is to ask questions with only a yes or no answer, and from that developed a train of thought from which there could be no divergence - a disciplined way of thinking about something to deny distracting vicissitudes. Where is this forum discussion going? In a way it is like a master mind group, but without a direction, a chair, a means of assessing or measuring progress. If it were an operating theatre, all the doctors would be slashing at the body in various places saying, 'here looks like a good place to operate... or perhaps here, or here... this bit looks interesting, look'. Yep... but the patient is going to be dead. :)

"But in a secular society, what is the motivation for the denial of explanation? - perhaps hankering for something to believe in ... "

I haven't heard that term in a while, "hankering" ...

I didn't know there was a denial of explanation? Explanation of what is being denied and by whom?

You don't want to go there though, belief, not with an admitted obsession for HCT! Got to be dispassionate.

"belief" gets thrown out as an argument stopper as does where are you going? What are you trying to accomplish? At the end of the day what have you done? All those questions your folks probably asked when you were sixteen ... ;-) so the paternalistic voice is still there but coming from another institution now, well just from the secular establishment in a diffuse form - but coercion is coercion. Religion got blamed for a lot of what is just human nature. Is Scientism a morally self correcting philosophy? Is it even the dominant philosophy - is it what makes up the "secular society"? Or is that a blend of faith in progress, remnants of humanism and consumerism? If you don't have time for questions like that you don't know whose agenda you are serving.

"If it were an operating theatre, all the doctors would be slashing at the body in various places saying, 'here looks like a good place to operate... or perhaps here, or here... this bit looks interesting, look'. Yep... but the patient is going to be dead. :)"

How is consciousness like a patient we are trying to operate on or save? It's an idea and we can poke prod walk around the idea all day long and no harm comes of it. better metaphor might be mapping or exploring. Some get impatient and jump in wanting answers explanations and certainty (or something to believe in? ;-) and that is great ... has to be done ... others can't wait to see what's around the next turn and the next. Different kinds of minds - it's a good thing.

The view also depends on how you see consciousness: as something in a little bone box or something generated, a field or a force ... or as something pervasive. It's not neutral either like magnetism because how you see it affects how you see yourself others and everything else - because it's your view of the view.
 
"But in a secular society, what is the motivation for the denial of explanation? - perhaps hankering for something to believe in ... "

I haven't heard that term in a while, "hankering" ...

I didn't know there was a denial of explanation? Explanation of what is being denied and by whom?

You don't want to go there though, belief, not with an admitted obsession for HCT! Got to be dispassionate.

"belief" gets thrown out as an argument stopper as does where are you going? What are you trying to accomplish? At the end of the day what have you done? All those questions your folks probably asked when you were sixteen ... ;-) so the paternalistic voice is still there but coming from another institution now, well just from the secular establishment in a diffuse form - but coercion is coercion. Religion got blamed for a lot of what is just human nature. Is Scientism a morally self correcting philosophy? Is it even the dominant philosophy - is it what makes up the "secular society"? Or is that a blend of faith in progress, remnants of humanism and consumerism? If you don't have time for questions like that you don't know whose agenda you are serving.

"If it were an operating theatre, all the doctors would be slashing at the body in various places saying, 'here looks like a good place to operate... or perhaps here, or here... this bit looks interesting, look'. Yep... but the patient is going to be dead. :)"

How is consciousness like a patient we are trying to operate on or save? It's an idea and we can poke prod walk around the idea all day long and no harm comes of it. better metaphor might be mapping or exploring. Some get impatient and jump in wanting answers explanations and certainty (or something to believe in? ;-) and that is great ... has to be done ... others can't wait to see what's around the next turn and the next. Different kinds of minds - it's a good thing.

The view also depends on how you see consciousness: as something in a little bone box or something generated, a field or a force ... or as something pervasive. It's not neutral either like magnetism because how you see it affects how you see yourself others and everything else - because it's your view of the view.

Who says an obsession has to be a belief? Don't answer that.
There is a denial of explanation. It is the most blatantly obvious thing about this threading forum.
I hope I didn't say consciousness is like a patient.
"Different kinds of minds - it's a good thing." Not necessarily. It can be a very bad thing.
 
Not necessarily: Space may be a result of 3D matter. Especially if space is infinitely small and large. If there is no 3D matter, do we really have 3-dimensional space? Same with time: If matter existed but did not move and/or change, how might an observer know that time had passed, again assuming an infinite universe. We couldn't.


There are many people apparently who do not think information is physical/material.

One way of thinking about it is to think of the concept of five.

5, five, V, cinco

If we "look" for five in the symbols above will we find? Is "five" in the symbols? The pixels? The colors? The computer? Where is five? Five is immaterial. Five exists - it is real - but it needs something material or physical to "embody" it.

This is how I think of the mind: qualia, thoughts, and sense of self.

What is 3d matter? Carries space around as a property? You don't seem to be able to avoid adding things ... but now as properties. That's ok it just may be that it's easier to think of space as out there because it's how we naively see the world ... or maybe the mathematics is easier in terms of bodies moving in space. But I think that shows that "What it's really like" is partly a matter of what we want to do with it - back to the cave with you!

Not sure your point overall is here? Again looks like everything reduces to matter ... which is no problem information can be immaterial in a material world - that's semantics ... but you can run it the other way around as in my example above ...
 
Who says an obsession has to be a belief? Don't answer that.
There is a denial of explanation. It is the most blatantly obvious thing about this threading forum.
I hope I didn't say consciousness is like a patient.
"Different kinds of minds - it's a good thing." Not necessarily. It can be a very bad thing.

Now we're getting somewhere ! Let's find out what's important and why. As I've said nobody gets worked up over a theory of consciousness.

What explanation has been denied? Be very specific.

Why should I not answer about belief and obsession? For me - an obsession involves beliefs and a certain insistence, on what I'm not always sure - but figuring that out usually helps me end the obsession. Why is HCT an obsession for you? What do you want to get out of it?

Tell me how different kinds of minds can be a bad thing? Which kind of mind needs to be in charge of deciding when different kinds of minds can be a "very bad thing"?
 
1. MasterMind groups:
Business communities do mastermind groups. They are private and confidential. They discuss members' business strategies and implementations etc. They have a chairperson, regular meetings online and in person, they pay for administrators to arrange meetings and finance resources for the group. They can cost 10s of thousands to join because they work. They are supportive, analytical, connecting.

2. the yes/no method:
peer review is a rubbish way to do philosophy, as are conferences. The ancient Greeks had something better, that is for sure. You see Dennett being quizzed by Hameroff at the Tuscon conference and he is allowed to wriggle away from questions. I would want to take one of DD's statements, get the best philosophers on the planet to drill down on the statement - in a room together! - Yes no prevents wriggle. That is the kind of philosophical masterminding I would expect the Greeks to have been up to. Everyone on equal terms, open immediate dialogue, focal analytical consideration, openness to new ideas and disciplines. I don't know what I am talking about really, but it is worth thinking about.

The patent dies and goes to heaven - but a better person and looking a bit better for it ;)

Dyslexia is a short term memory disability for many. If organising life is a problem, if you are above average intelligence, if your eyes have to re-read lines/words over and over (eyes moving from side to side) then maybe you are laterally gifted like all dyslexics.

You are looking for absolutes:

Yes/no
No wriggle
Drill down

Aggressive language, black and white, that's a kind of mind and it's good for certain things.

I definitely get your point but Yes/no can cut a thing in half.

In law school this was used all the time and it didn't necessarily get at the truth

Have you stopped bearing your wife Mr Pharoah? ... Yes ... or no ... answer the question, Mr Pharoah.

it shaped your thinking to produce lines of thought that survive yes/no questions regardless of their veracity ... not what you want in philosophy.

Socrates is sly ... a simple man, knows nothing - but before you know it his innocent questions make you out the damn fool you are - and he went for those who claimed to be experts, claimed to have the answers.

And ... look what they did to him.

Why is asking questions and not accepting explanations so very dangerous? Well, they seemed to think his kind of mind was a very bad thing.

People raise him up now for any given cause as if he'd be on their side - Buddy Socrates - but I've a hunch if he were here now he'd be a gadfly to those very people.

If you read some of the dialogs I'd like to hear your thoughts.

What does "laterally gifted" mean?
 
@Pharoah

The Dyslexic Advantage - gifteddyslexic

"Non-dyslexic brains display the order, stability and efficiency of train tracks; they work along logical lines. Dyslexic brains store information like murals or stained glass, connect ideas like spider webs and jump from one thought to another,” the authors say. “They are better at learning from maps and illustrations rather than texts.” On the other side, early in school they are likely to struggle with reading, spelling and handwriting, and they tend to find basic arithmetic and rote memory for maths harder. At least half have significant problems with procedural learning (acquiring a skill through repeated performance and practice), are slower to master any rule-based skills and tend to forget them faster. They also show difficulties with time awareness, but as adults are good at multi-tasking."

-----

"Dyslexic brains store information like murals or stained glass, connect ideas like spider webs and jump from one thought to another,”

That sounds like me!

"Non-dyslexic brains display the order, stability and efficiency of train tracks; they work along logical lines."

That sounds like what you are expressing in terms of yes/no drill down?
 
Now we're getting somewhere ! Let's find out what's important and why. As I've said nobody gets worked up over a theory of consciousness.

What explanation has been denied? Be very specific.

Why should I not answer about belief and obsession? For me - an obsession involves beliefs and a certain insistence, on what I'm not always sure - but figuring that out usually helps me end the obsession. Why is HCT an obsession for you? What do you want to get out of it?

Tell me how different kinds of minds can be a bad thing? Which kind of mind needs to be in charge of deciding when different kinds of minds can be a "very bad thing"?

Obsessions can involve beliefs, therefore all obsessions involve beliefs?
Explanation as a methodology has been avoided consistently. I think of Soupie as someone looking for explanation, and having intuitions that are positive... this is a small group I grant you. I think of you and Constance as being opposed to explanation. "Be very specific"? I can't trawl through the comments looking for where people have avoided advancing a thread in the pursuit of inquisitive enquiry.
Why is HCT an obsession? Obsession is perhaps the wrong word. I haven't heard any valid critique. The day someone points out where it is flawed is a day I would celebrate - and I mean that.
"How different minds can be a bad thing" It isn't that. It is rejoicing in diversity for diversity's sake. Not standing up for what is 'right' is a bad thing.
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)
If all kinds of minds are fine and dandy, then when are you going to be compelled to stand up to the ideas that are 'bad'.
Furthermore, a lot of grant money gets channelled to research that would otherwise be best spent on other projects. Treating all ideas as equally useful for discussion and research, for example, is not optimal and therefore can be bad. Lots of examples in history.
 
You are looking for absolutes:

Yes/no
No wriggle
Drill down

Aggressive language, black and white, that's a kind of mind and it's good for certain things.

I definitely get your point but Yes/no can cut a thing in half.

In law school this was used all the time and it didn't necessarily get at the truth

Have you stopped bearing your wife Mr Pharoah? ... Yes ... or no ... answer the question, Mr Pharoah.

it shaped your thinking to produce lines of thought that survive yes/no questions regardless of their veracity ... not what you want in philosophy.

Socrates is sly ... a simple man, knows nothing - but before you know it his innocent questions make you out the damn fool you are - and he went for those who claimed to be experts, claimed to have the answers.

And ... look what they did to him.

Why is asking questions and not accepting explanations so very dangerous? Well, they seemed to think his kind of mind was a very bad thing.

People raise him up now for any given cause as if he'd be on their side - Buddy Socrates - but I've a hunch if he were here now he'd be a gadfly to those very people.

If you read some of the dialogs I'd like to hear your thoughts.

What does "laterally gifted" mean?
Aggressive language. Sorry.
"bearing my wife?"... Is this a trick question?
Yes and no doesn't work for lots of things...
Laterally gifted is thinking non-linearlly. Seeing different layers to problems or seeing a problem in a 3 dimensional rather than 1 dimensional manner.
 
I want to apologise to everyone for my recent posts.
I have overstepped the mark.
I do respect different ways of thinking and l think the forum serves a very good purpose. I need to step back from things a bit and just read threads for a while
 
Obsessions can involve beliefs, therefore all obsessions involve beliefs?
Explanation as a methodology has been avoided consistently. I think of Soupie as someone looking for explanation, and having intuitions that are positive... this is a small group I grant you. I think of you and Constance as being opposed to explanation. "Be very specific"? I can't trawl through the comments looking for where people have avoided advancing a thread in the pursuit of inquisitive enquiry.
Why is HCT an obsession? Obsession is perhaps the wrong word. I haven't heard any valid critique. The day someone points out where it is flawed is a day I would celebrate - and I mean that.
"How different minds can be a bad thing" It isn't that. It is rejoicing in diversity for diversity's sake. Not standing up for what is 'right' is a bad thing.
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)
If all kinds of minds are fine and dandy, then when are you going to be compelled to stand up to the ideas that are 'bad'.
Furthermore, a lot of grant money gets channelled to research that would otherwise be best spent on other projects. Treating all ideas as equally useful for discussion and research, for example, is not optimal and therefore can be bad. Lots of examples in history.

"Obsessions can involve beliefs, therefore all obsessions involve beliefs?"

Where did I say that? Clearly you have things you believe in some sense of the word? There is reasoned belief as well as blind belief. If you have a better word that's fine.

" I think of Soupie as someone looking for explanation, and having intuitions that are positive... "

I do too and that's why I take time to respond and ask questions. I can try to rephrase so that comes across less critical - but I grew up with that kind of language and having to justify my thinking so I don't think of questions as opposing explanation, I think of them as trying to get better explanations. It's a show of respect to ask hard questions, if the theory is good it will survive if not as you say it dies looking better. I don't see the difference here and your example of pinning Dennett down with yes/no? If something doesn't make sense or I see a hole, I'm supposed to sit quiet?

"this is a small group I grant you. I think of you and Constance as being opposed to explanation. "Be very specific"? I can't trawl through the comments looking for where people have avoided advancing a thread in the pursuit of inquisitive enquiry."

If nothing sticks out enough as an example then I'm not going to worry about it ... But If you do find an example or one comes up point it out please and let's go through it and see what we can do, ok?

"Why is HCT an obsession? Obsession is perhaps the wrong word. I haven't heard any valid critique. The day someone points out where it is flawed is a day I would celebrate - and I mean that."

It sounds like you may have to spend most of your time "selling" the idea. It works the same way in academics as any where else, but if it's a good idea someone will recognize it. A champion is usually someone older who isn't tied up with their own work and still has status among their peers. Collaboration works because they can get credit too.

I agree completely with the last part and I've been there done that, so again I need examples as to why you brought it up?

The flip side is when good work is ignored.

This is a paranormal forum and I spent a considerable amount of time reading Dean Radin's collection of peer reviewed published work in Psi.

The work is there, the scientific method is followed, good experimental design and protocol, skeptics are engaged and responded too, the statistics are rigorous (see esp. Jessica Utts) yet the work is completely ignored by the mainstream.

Thomas Kuhn discusses why in The Structure if Scientific Revolutions ... no paradigm and science, as it should be, is very conservative.

You are experiencing this now with HCT.

To my mind the evidence for psi has to be

1. Dismissed - not easy to do if you look objectively at the work, it's especially difficult to dismiss for methodological reasons
2. Integrated into an existing paradigm , ie explained away
3. Dealt with on its own terms even if that means a new paradigm
 
Aggressive language. Sorry.
"bearing my wife?"... Is this a trick question?
Yes and no doesn't work for lots of things...
Laterally gifted is thinking non-linearlly. Seeing different layers to problems or seeing a problem in a 3 dimensional rather than 1 dimensional manner.

Lol should be "beating" sorry old law school example ... Kind of crass on my part. It's not funny of course.

How about:

Do you walk to school or carry your lunch?
 
I want to apologise to everyone for my recent posts.
I have overstepped the mark.
I do respect different ways of thinking and l think the forum serves a very good purpose. I need to step back from things a bit and just read threads for a while

Not as far as I'm concerned!

I appreciate the candor - you've raised many good points and I'm examining my own thinking and responses in light of the criticism. I can see where I can make some changes.

You're not gong to hurt my feelings and if you do I'll probably get over it. I probably should get over it.

I like the idea of focusing the thread and I'm open to doing so.
 
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