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Consciousness and the Paranormal — Part 4

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@Constance I am not sure that we are quite seeing eye to eye here... my focus is on that unique Being that is me: unique in the entire expanse of the universe's totality of time and space; an essence that is not subject to generalisations of any description because it defies all generalities. And it does so, not because my experiences are unique to me as it is outside the phenomena of interactive experience. So the question 'why' does not address this issue imo.
@smcder no. I do not know about eternal recurrence nor K-pax. I will look up.
Moral realist? That is complicated. I should not have used the term 'moral'. I have written about 'choice in action' on my website and of the evolution of morality. In my recent journal submission which I posted in the threads, section 9 is about the metaphysical/ epistemiological blur of observer-dependence. The realism I speak of is one where the individual is not embedded in reality but is a dynamic aspect to reality. Action comes out of that and a human rationale identifies good action through principles of conceptual judgement. Each hierarchical level has cause to action and the processes of each do conflict. That is reality, but it is not rigid. The next hierarchical level will fundamentally influence cause to action.

Moral realism isn't complicated:

Moral Realism (or Moral Objectivism) is the meta-ethical view (see the section on Ethics) that there exist such things as moral facts and moral values, and that these are objective and independent of our perception of them or our beliefs, feelings or other attitudes towards them.

So do you believe there exists such things as moral facts and values, objective and indepdent of our perception of them or our beliefs, feelings or other attitudes towards them?
 
Yes Pharoah, I remember discussing with you in part 3 your idea about the uniqueness of your personal being {?} or identity {?}, but it's good that you bring this forward again and attempt to give us a clearer sense of what you are claiming in terms of your independence from being and Being. I join Steve in asking you for a clearer exposition of your concept and its grounds.

This text by Heidegger may be useful to you in understanding the relevance of his thinking to your own:



A very helpful summary posted at amazon:

"Thinking the ground of metaphysics...
By Brian C. on April 3, 2011

This is a very short book composed of two essays (The Principle of Identity and The Ontotheological Constitution of Metaphysics). The actual text of the English translation is only around fifty pages which means the text is very dense and terse in formulation even by Heidegger's standards. In order to understand what Heidegger is up to in this text you either have to already be in possession of a basic understanding of Heidegger's later philosophy (especially Heidegger's understanding of the 'truth of Being', 'event of appropriation', and the belonging together of thought and Being) or you will have to find a good secondary source that deals with this text (there is a short but enlightening discussion of the two essays in this book in a book by Otto Poggeler titled Martin Heidegger's Path of Thinking). While this is a very interesting book the fact that it is so short does not make it a good stand alone text, or a good general introduction, to Heidegger's late philosophy. I will attempt to summarize, to the best of my limited abilities, the two essays contained in this work. Anyone choosing to read my summaries should bear in mind that I am by no means an expert in Heidegger (yet) so these summaries should be taken as very provisional. If anyone spots what they consider to be errors in my interpretation please feel free to respond under the comments section of this review.

In the first essay Heidegger attempts to think through the principle of identity (A is A) which is often considered the highest principle of thought. This principle is not, however, merely the highest law of thought, the principle to which all thought must conform in order to be coherent, it is also supposed to say something about the Being of beings, namely: every being is in such a way that it is identical to itself. If beings were not encountered in their identity with themselves something like science would not be possible. The principle of identity as it applies to Being is, therefore, a necessary presupposition for something like science. But is this the most profound understanding of identity? Heidegger does not think so. Heidegger believes there is a more profound form of identity which underlies our ability to encounter beings in terms of the identity they bear towards themselves. In order to elucidate this more profound notion of identity Heidegger turns to one of his favorite sayings of Parmenides "For the same perceiving (thinking) as well as being" (pg27). This is a strange translation but what is being asserted here is an identity between perceiving (thinking) and being. This identity is no longer the identity which we represent as a characteristic of the Being of beings since Being is one of the terms of this identity (it cannot, therefore, ground the identity). Heidegger interprets this identity as a belonging together of man and Being. Being only is within the clearing that man provides while man is only the response to Being. Heidegger believes that Being becomes present to man today primarily in the form of technology. Beings present themselves as what is manipulable or representable. The most difficult aspect of Heidegger's later thought is that he no longer conceives this as a projection of man. In Being and Time Heidegger analyzed what he believed was an inherent tendency of Dasein to misunderstand the world in terms of merely present-at-hand things. This tendency could still be overcome, however, by providing a deeper ontology of Dasein and Dasein's various modes of comportment. But the later Heidegger (the Heidegger after the turn) no longer believes that things are quite this simple when he writes, "Technology conceived in its broadest sense and in its manifold manifestations, is taken for the plan which man projects [which would be the standpoint of Being and Time]...Caught up in this conception, we confirm our own opinion that technology is of man's making alone. We fail to hear the claim of Being which speaks in the essence of technology" (pg34). Reducing technology to a projection of man is itself part of the technological worldview which views everything in terms of its origin in the subject. Heidegger is attempting to understand how man is 'delivered over' to such a worldview which he calls the frame while not being the origin of this understanding. The frame, according to Heidegger, is "more real than all of atomic energy and the whole world of machinery" (pg35) but we are not aware of the frame because the frame itself determines the Being of beings as presence and the frame itself is not something that is present. It is not too difficult to understand the notion of an impersonal conceptual framework that determines our relation to beings (similar in its own way to Kuhnian paradigms). What is difficult to understand is Heidegger's insistence that this frame is a claim of Being which man is delivered over to in what Heidegger calls the event of appropriation (I believe that some of the post-Heideggerians attempt to overcome what might be called Heidegger's mystical understanding of the 'sendings of Being' by connecting these impersonal frameworks to more material structures like social practices and institutions and language). Heidegger does believe there is a way out of this impasse. If we are able to think technology and metaphysics in terms of the history of Being then we can pass onto an experience of the 'event of appropriation' which is the belonging-together of man and Being. We can, to some degree, free ourselves from the thinking which takes what is representable by the human subject as the measure of what is real and remain open to the mystery that is necessarily a part of every unconcealment of Being (since concealment belongs necessarily to every unconcealment). We can do this by thinking the more profound identity between thinking and Being which lies behind identity as a characteristic of the Being of beings. The goal of the first essay is precisely to think this more profound identity as the 'event of appropriation'.

In the second essay Heidegger attempts to determine the nature of metaphysics as onto-theo-logical thought which is itself grounded in the oblivion of the ontological difference (the difference between Being and beings). Metaphysics does think the difference between Being and beings but it thinks it in terms of the difference between 'what-a-thing-is' and 'that-it-is', or as Otto Poggeler writes, "the true world of the permanent what-it-is is distinguished from the apparent world of the vanishing and transitory that-it-is" (pg120). Metaphysics thinks the Being of beings in terms of constant presence which serves as a ground for the transitory existence of beings. Plato, for example, thinks of the Being of beings as Idea, that which remains identical beyond the transitory and fleeting world of sense-perception. But as Poggeler observes this winds up destroying the unity between beings and Being (which is why Platonism winds up positing another transcendent world of Being in contrast to the world of becoming) and this difference remains merely ontic (a difference between two beings rather than a difference between Being and beings). Heidegger is attempting to rethink the ontological difference in a way that does not lead to the positing of another, true realm of reality in contrast to the world that we actually live in (he is, therefore, carrying forward a project of Nietzsche, namely, the overturning of Platonism, though he attempts to overturn Platonism in a way that is not a mere reversal of terms which is what he thinks Nietzsche does). For Heidegger the Being of beings is not a true Being that is separate from beings; rather, "the Being of beings means Being which is beings" (pg64). Heidegger argues that the 'is' in this sentence must be understood transitively. In other words, not in the sense of identity (Being is beings in the sense that they are identical which would obliterate the ontological difference), but in the sense that Being becomes present in the transition to beings (as a sidenote: this terse discussion by Heidegger of the nature of the 'is' as transitive when it relates Being to beings is a key to understanding Heidegger's discussion of Schelling and his relation to pantheism in his book on Schelling). This is a difficult thought to grasp but I think we can understand this thought with an example. The table that lies in front of me 'is', it has Being. But the table itself is not Being (it is not identical to Being, and this is the meaning of the ontological difference). On the other hand, Being (though different from beings) is not something that lies in another realm beyond the realm in which we live. The Being of the table is right in front of us; it does not reside in some inaccessible realm that we can only reach through thought (nor is Being a logical category which we can manipulate in thought). Being is the unconcealment of Being and is present as beings and yet it is not identical to beings nor is it a being (Lee Braver, in his book on Heidegger's later writings, expresses this by saying that Being is an adverb rather than a noun; it expresses a way Being, or a how, rather than a substantive Being; in this work Heidegger argues it is "impossible to represent Being as the general characteristic of particular beings," since, "there is being only in this or that historical character: phusis, logos, en, idea, energeia, substantiality, objectivity..." (pg66); these are the great epochal understandings of Being which determine the how of how we encounter beings; it is impossible to find a single, general concept of Being which would underlie all of these understandings of Being). This is what Heidegger means when he says that "the Being of beings means Being which is beings" (pg64) and that the 'is' in that sentence must be understood transitively. Being is always the Being of beings but it is also always a particular way of understanding beings which both reveals and conceals. This contrasts with metaphysics which attempts to think the Being of beings in the unity of what is general (ontology as the science of what is common to all beings, or, of being as being) and in the unity of the ground of Being (theology which conceives of the ground as God or the divine) (pg58). This is a circular dance according to Heidegger since we seek to ground beings in the general nature of Being and then wind up grounding the general nature of Being on a being (the highest cause). Metaphysics is lead into this circle because it follows the logos which is understood as the process of providing grounds, securing reasons, etc. (which ultimately leads to Hegel's Science of Logic in which Being is conceived as this movement of thought itself, or thought thinking itself; and it should be pointed out that Hegel's Science of Logic is the starting point of the second essay in this work). Heidegger, in other works, attempts to uncover a more original understanding of the logos as unconcealment which will move him away from metaphysics and logic (the giving of grounds, or the grounding of knowledge claims) towards poetry (the saying which uncovers the truth). It should be pointed out that metaphysics, for Heidegger, is inherently onto-theo-logy to the degree that it attempts to provide grounds for beings whether or not any particular metaphysical system winds up having recourse to an ultimate being in the sense of a self-caused being. Metaphysics is inherently onto-theo-logical whether or not it is explicitly theistic. The overcoming of onto-theo-logy is not, therefore, of necessity atheism but only the overcoming of a certain understanding of the divine in terms of a First Cause. But as Heidegger remarks, "Before the causa sui, man can neither fall to his knees in awe nor can he play music and dance before this god. The god-less thinking which must abandon the god of philosophy, god as causa sui, is thus perhaps closer to the divine God" (pg72). This opens up the possibility of a new understanding of religion and the divine which, I might add, remains largely immune to the criticisms leveled against religion by the new atheism since it does not posit a highest being as the ground of Being.

In summary, this book is a very condensed discussion of some of the fundamental notions of Heidegger's later philosophy (the frame, the ontological difference, the essence of metaphysics as onto-theo-logy, etc.). While it is not necessarily the best introduction to these aspects of Heidegger's later thought due to its length and terse formulations it will prove a very enlightening text for anyone who already has some familiarity with Heidegger's later philosophy."
 
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1. The eternal recurrence... I have seen a short film where a man wakes and lives exactly the same over and over.
2. K-pax: seen half of it.
3. I thought I would make no attempt to avoid obscurity to see if that leant me anymore credibility—apparently not.
4. "Moral Realism (or Moral Objectivism) is the meta-ethical view that there exist such things as moral facts and moral values, and that these are objective and independent of our perception of them or our beliefs, feelings or other attitudes towards them."
moral facts: the trouble is I don't think facts exist beyond the constructs that relate to them, so that does complicate things. However, that morality is merely a conceptual construct about correct action derived from the reality of the hierarchical organisation of physical interqction is not to say it is not real and it is not to say that it is an inevitable condition that a physical universe must realise. It is real, but it is not rigidly designated outside of this intractive conplexity.
5. @Constance. Nagel articulates my thoughts about unique identity very well in "The view from nowhere" and is the only philosopher that I know to have done so satisfactorily (particularly first >100 pages). But even Nagel seems confused by the concept sometimes and admits to that in his email to me. If you want I can try to address this again and try to put my point across... perhaps I should quote and comment Nagel's chapter 4 whilst doing so.
 
1. The eternal recurrence... I have seen a short film where a man wakes and lives exactly the same over and over.
2. K-pax: seen half of it.
3. I thought I would make no attempt to avoid obscurity to see if that leant me anymore credibility—apparently not.
4. "Moral Realism (or Moral Objectivism) is the meta-ethical view that there exist such things as moral facts and moral values, and that these are objective and independent of our perception of them or our beliefs, feelings or other attitudes towards them."
moral facts: the trouble is I don't think facts exist beyond the constructs that relate to them, so that does complicate things. However, that morality is merely a conceptual construct about correct action derived from the reality of the hierarchical organisation of physical interqction is not to say it is not real and it is not to say that it is an inevitable condition that a physical universe must realise. It is real, but it is not rigidly designated outside of this intractive conplexity.
5. @Constance. Nagel articulates my thoughts about unique identity very well in "The view from nowhere" and is the only philosopher that I know to have done so satisfactorily (particularly first >100 pages). But even Nagel seems confused by the concept sometimes and admits to that in his email to me. If you want I can try to address this again and try to put my point across... perhaps I should quote and comment Nagel's chapter 4 whilst doing so.

1. La Jetee
2.

3. see #4
4. ?
5. can you do so while attempting to avoid obscurity?
 
5. @Constance. Nagel articulates my thoughts about unique identity very well in "The view from nowhere" and is the only philosopher that I know to have done so satisfactorily (particularly first >100 pages). But even Nagel seems confused by the concept sometimes and admits to that in his email to me. If you want I can try to address this again and try to put my point across... perhaps I should quote and comment Nagel's chapter 4 whilst doing so.

Yes, please do address that again. I never did receive a copy of Nagel's email to you and would very much like to read it. Quoting from View from Nowhere would also be a great help. Thanks. I'm very interested in understanding what you and Nagel are thinking.
 
@Constance I am not sure that we are quite seeing eye to eye here... my focus is on that unique Being that is me: unique in the entire expanse of the universe's totality of time and space; an essence that is not subject to generalisations of any description because it defies all generalities. And it does so, not because my experiences are unique to me as it is outside the phenomena of interactive experience. So the question 'why' does not address this issue imo.

I am not sure that we are quite seeing eye to eye here... my focus is on that unique Being that is me: unique in the entire expanse of the universe's totality of time and space; an essence that is not subject to generalisations of any description because it defies all generalities. And it does so, not because my experiences are unique to me as it is outside the phenomena of interactive experience. So the question 'why' does not address this issue imo.

(the) unique Being that is me is:

1. unique in the entire expanse of the universe's totality of time and space
2. is not subject to generalisations of any description because it defies all generalities
3. not because my experiences are unique to me as it is outside the phenomena of interactive experiences

I think is a very good description of the hard problem, @Soupie if you are still around, this is why it's hard for me to sign off on "the mind is green" mainly because of #3, then #2

@Pharoah essence is very interesting word choice here (please don't regret it later) I am curious how you first put your finger on it or was this sense always there?
 
I've read that Thomas was psychically gifted. There is a fascinating passage in the Gospel of Thomas (or perhaps in other recorded statements of his while traveling in another country) concerning what Christ experienced at the time he left the body. I came across it some years ago while doing research on the Shroud of Turin. The experience was an anomalous doubling of Christ's vision of himself in the tomb or crypt.

addendum:
I wish I could find this quotation from Thomas again. It suggested that Christ saw himself seeing himself in the tomb, saw himself from two perspectives, one from within the body and the other from outside the body. There was also an element of immense light and mirroring in the experience, perhaps caused by whatever source of powerful light/energy produced the image on the Shroud (which cannot yet be explained by physical scientists despite decades of trying).

I'd like to see the quotation, I serched the Gospel of Thomas:

The Gospel of Thomas Collection -- Translations and Resources

but didn't find something I thought matched that description ... I'll look for other Thomas texts, let us know if you find it.
 
1. The eternal recurrence... I have seen a short film where a man wakes and lives exactly the same over and over.
2. K-pax: seen half of it.
3. I thought I would make no attempt to avoid obscurity to see if that leant me anymore credibility—apparently not.
4. "Moral Realism (or Moral Objectivism) is the meta-ethical view that there exist such things as moral facts and moral values, and that these are objective and independent of our perception of them or our beliefs, feelings or other attitudes towards them."
moral facts: the trouble is I don't think facts exist beyond the constructs that relate to them, so that does complicate things. However, that morality is merely a conceptual construct about correct action derived from the reality of the hierarchical organisation of physical interqction is not to say it is not real and it is not to say that it is an inevitable condition that a physical universe must realise. It is real, but it is not rigidly designated outside of this intractive conplexity.
5. @Constance. Nagel articulates my thoughts about unique identity very well in "The view from nowhere" and is the only philosopher that I know to have done so satisfactorily (particularly first >100 pages). But even Nagel seems confused by the concept sometimes and admits to that in his email to me. If you want I can try to address this again and try to put my point across... perhaps I should quote and comment Nagel's chapter 4 whilst doing so.

moral facts: the trouble is I don't think facts exist beyond the constructs that relate to them, so that does complicate things. However, that morality is merely a conceptual construct about correct action derived from the reality of the hierarchical organisation of physical interqction is not to say it is not real and it is not to say that it is an inevitable condition that a physical universe must realise. It is real, but it is not rigidly designated outside of this intractive conplexity.

Does

the trouble is I don't think facts exist beyond the constructs that relate to them

mean your trouble is with this:

independent of our perception of them or our beliefs, feelings or other attitudes towards them

part of this definition:

"Moral Realism (or Moral Objectivism) is the meta-ethical view that there exist such things as moral facts and moral values, and that these are objective and independent of our perception of them or our beliefs, feelings or other attitudes towards them."

?

Removing the double negative and merely ... is not to say construction (us from this:

However, that morality is merely a conceptual construct about correct action derived from the reality of the hierarchical organisation of physical interqction is not to say it is not real and it is not to say that it is an inevitable condition that a physical universe must realise. It is real, but it is not rigidly designated outside of this intractive conplexity.

I get

... morality is real and an inevitable condition that a physical universe must reali(s)e. It is real but not rigidly designated. (but inevitable)

So the "inevitable" part of this is what makes it tricky for me. So while not independent of our perception, beliefs, feelings, attitudes ... morality is real and and an inevitable condition?

Sounds pretty real to me? Or have I misunderstood?
 
{quoting Pharoah} "I am not sure that we are quite seeing eye to eye here... my focus is on that unique Being that is me: unique in the entire expanse of the universe's totality of time and space; an essence that is not subject to generalisations of any description because it defies all generalities. And it does so, not because my experiences are unique to me as it is outside the phenomena of interactive experience. So the question 'why' does not address this issue imo."

(the) unique Being that is me is:

1. unique in the entire expanse of the universe's totality of time and space
2. is not subject to generalisations of any description because it defies all generalities
3. not because my experiences are unique to me as it is outside the phenomena of interactive experiences

I think is a very good description of the hard problem, @Soupie if you are still around, this is why it's hard for me to sign off on "the mind is green" mainly because of #3, then #2

@Pharoah essence is very interesting word choice here (please don't regret it later) I am curious how you first put your finger on it or was this sense always there?

I agree with Steve's comment that what Pharoah is claiming concerns the hard problem. It seems to me that Pharoah is simply denying the reality of the hard problem. This is why we need you, @Pharoah, to be specific in explicating and supporting your claims that the HP can be dismissed by your theory.

Here again as Steve quoted them are your essential claims:

(the) unique Being that is me is:

1. unique in the entire expanse of the universe's totality of time and space
2. is not subject to generalisations of any description because it defies all generalities
3. not because my experiences are unique to me as it is outside the phenomena of interactive experiences

These are my questions at this point:

Re 1., I think it's reasonable to claim, even obvious, that you, Mark Pharoah, an Englishman writing in the early 21st century, experience your own consciousness in numerous ways that cannot be identical with the ways in which any other extant human being experiences his or her consciousness, either at every new moment of awareness or in the personal integration of past lived experience in the world that every consciousness accumulates and refers to. My first objection is that the recognizable individuality of human consciousnesses does not obviate the fact that there are basic characteristics/structures of consciousness shared among all humans, as demonstrated in phenomenological analysis of consciousness. My second objection is that Mark Pharoah's consciousness in this lifetime might not remain the same if the 'essence' of Mark Pharoah is or has been reincarnated in another lifetime in the stream of universal time and evolution. You seem to be claiming an essence that has formerly been referred to as the 'soul', a permanent entity that seems in numerous cases investigated by reincarnation researchers to return to a temporal lifetime in another body (indeed another biographical identity), pursuing another, separate, lifetime in the time and place of its reincarnation. Reincarnation research must be considered in thinking about the possibility of one temporally embodied identity maintaining permanent Being that transcends experience {edited:} in the continually changing and evolving world in which life and consciousness is necessarily situated historically, temporally, and geographically.

re 2., if your current experience of the world as available to your own consciousness cannot be in part generalized as similar to the experience of others both in situations similar to yours in England and in thousands of other concurrently lived situations on planet earth, how is it that you can identify with the problems, struggles, and feelings of your contemporaries elsewhere? How is it possible for you to empathize with any others anywhere, even those living closest to you (your family, your friends, even your llamas)? Do you really think that your lived experience and awareness of it is not coherent with what's called 'the human situation' in our time and even the situation of non-human but sentient animals living in our time?

re 3., the point needs further clarifying. Here is what you wrote: "3. not because my experiences are unique to me as it is outside the phenomena of interactive experiences." First question: does the pronoun 'it' refer to your experiences? {EDIT to add: Or does it refer to the personal, essential, timeless Being you think you possess?} Second question, and the most interesting one for me: on what basis do you conclude that your own "unique Being" has nothing to do with the interaction of your current biographical consciousness with the 'world' in which you presently live, the historical situation you currently occupy with its factical limitations on what you can think, how you can act, how you experience your temporal being?
 
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Yes, please do address that again. I never did receive a copy of Nagel's email to you and would very much like to read it. Quoting from View from Nowhere would also be a great help. Thanks. I'm very interested in understanding what you and Nagel are thinking.
@Constance I am sorry you did not get the email... drop me your email and I'll give it another attempt.
I haven't written up my notes from Nagel's book yet, so I'll do so tonight. I can relate this topic to B&T too which might be interesting (or confounding!)
@smcder: you may remember the comments of a reviewer to my AJP submission... that I confused the metaphysical with the epistemiological through my use of the terms 'information' and 'fact' in the same sentence.
Now... I reject the notion that there is such a thing as observer-independent facts. This view may be misconstrued as implying that I am an idealist—that i am of the view that facts are (mind) dependent in some way. But this is not the case.
Morality concerns itself with the evaluation of actions and the determination of principles underlying Good action. To try and find such rigid designations—i.e., moral facts—is to believe there are principles: to believe there are indomitable moral ideals (heaven forbid ideologies).
But from my stance, morality relates to action: it relates to responding to the world. Morality is a necessary evolutionary consequence of the hierarchical constructs. Each construct reacts to interactions:
Good reaction to enviornment in replicating organisms ensures the survival of species; phenomenal experience is qualitative: it has good and bad qualities which mitigate behavioural response; the conceptualising human looks to principles underlying the good and bad of experience.
HCT says something of the origin of morality—of the 'cause to act' and our conceptual contemplation of 'principles of action'. But this morality is of the world to: it has to exist in the physical world whether we know of it or not. HCT explains that morality had to have evolved by accident... by trial and error. The next hierarchical level will transcend this (by extrapolation this must be the case)
So am I a moral realist? Yes and no I think.
 
OFFS please let us not get onto HP again. It is a hard problem, but it is NOT "The" Hard Problem as articulated by DC. It just isn't!!

@Constance will respond to your points in due course
 
But from my stance, morality relates to action: it relates to responding to the world. Morality is a necessary evolutionary consequence of the hierarchical constructs. Each construct reacts to interactions:

The question is, how does each 'construct' [yet to be defined] understand interactions between organisms (along a spectrum of protoconsciousness...consciousness) so as to "react to them"?

Good reaction to enviornment in replicating organisms ensures the survival of species; phenomenal experience is qualitative: it has good and bad qualities which mitigate behavioural response; the conceptualising human looks to principles underlying the good and bad of experience.

"Phenomenal experience" is the term that requires definition; there are many different definitions of 'phenomenal experience' in the POM and consciousness studies literature {including neuroscientific definitions of various sorts as well as philosophical differences in the philosophical literature}. How do you define or describe 'phenomenal experience'? Re your concluding statement -- "the conceptualising human looks to principles underlying the good and bad of experience" -- does HCT recognize that the formation of what you call 'principles' is grounded in preconceptual experiences and reactions of human beings?


HCT says something of the origin of morality—of the 'cause to act' and our conceptual contemplation of 'principles of action'. But **this morality is of the world to[o]: it has to exist in the physical world whether we know of it or not. HCT explains that morality had to have evolved by accident... by trial and error.**

Our principles have to be developed in the world because we exist in the world as we experience it locally. I do not think you or any materialist can defend the claim that "morality had to have evolved by accident." You seem to equate 'trial and error' to 'accident', but trial and error are part of learning, at each stage of learning, in our species and others. Trial and error involves the recognition of error and behavioral choices that follow that recognition by avoiding the error that has been understood. Learning has gone in living species for eons of time and led to increasing refinements of understanding and self-determination [and collective determinations] of mutually, socially, and ethically appropriate and acceptable behaviors toward others. A variety of ouro species' historically established 'principles' and 'codes' of behavior have been and continue to be found wanting. On what basis? Surely on the basis of understandings built out of lived experience of our own and of others as we increasingly become aware of others and the conditions in which we live. So we are still in the process of formulating 'principles' that will be adequate to the nature of lived reality -- our own and that of others. This process stands in the way, imo, of the distinction you have argued for between stage 2 and stage 3 of your construct theory.

Regarding the 'transcendent' stage 4 you postulate, what will it transcend? The complexity of the demands made upon all of us by the needs and claims of innumerable others with whom we share this world, demands not just for economic justice but for the protection we owe all of them from other kinds of repression and harm exercised by racists, classists, sexists, etc., that deny their innate subjectivity and individual rights?
 
OFFS please let us not get onto HP again. It is a hard problem, but it is NOT "The" Hard Problem as articulated by DC. It just isn't!!

You'll have to do better than simply saying that, Pharoah. Your making an enormous argument that needs considerable exposition and support.

@Constance will respond to your points in due course[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure what 'points' you think I will respond to. While I've been writing my last few posts I've not caught up with simultaneous recent posts.
 
@Constance I am sorry you did not get the email... drop me your email and I'll give it another attempt.
I haven't written up my notes from Nagel's book yet, so I'll do so tonight. I can relate this topic to B&T too which might be interesting (or confounding!)
@smcder: you may remember the comments of a reviewer to my AJP submission... that I confused the metaphysical with the epistemiological through my use of the terms 'information' and 'fact' in the same sentence.
Now... I reject the notion that there is such a thing as observer-independent facts. This view may be misconstrued as implying that I am an idealist—that i am of the view that facts are (mind) dependent in some way. But this is not the case.
Morality concerns itself with the evaluation of actions and the determination of principles underlying Good action. To try and find such rigid designations—i.e., moral facts—is to believe there are principles: to believe there are indomitable moral ideals (heaven forbid ideologies).
But from my stance, morality relates to action: it relates to responding to the world. Morality is a necessary evolutionary consequence of the hierarchical constructs. Each construct reacts to interactions:
Good reaction to enviornment in replicating organisms ensures the survival of species; phenomenal experience is qualitative: it has good and bad qualities which mitigate behavioural response; the conceptualising human looks to principles underlying the good and bad of experience.
HCT says something of the origin of morality—of the 'cause to act' and our conceptual contemplation of 'principles of action'. But this morality is of the world to: it has to exist in the physical world whether we know of it or not. HCT explains that morality had to have evolved by accident... by trial and error. The next hierarchical level will transcend this (by extrapolation this must be the case)
So am I a moral realist? Yes and no I think.

Are you responding with a larger audience in mind? It seems to me when I ask you a specific question and I do try to narrow it down, I get a broad re-hash with a lot of things you said but it doesn't feel like to me you are responding to my question. Some times it seems you don't read them closely. I may need to re-word them for clarity though.
 
OFFS please let us not get onto HP again. It is a hard problem, but it is NOT "The" Hard Problem as articulated by DC. It just isn't!!

@Constance will respond to your points in due course

The more I've thought about this the more I think that why I am me is implicit in the hard problem, as far back as you'd like to go.

But you can discuss or not whatever you are comfortable with.
 
@Constance I am sorry you did not get the email... drop me your email and I'll give it another attempt.
I haven't written up my notes from Nagel's book yet, so I'll do so tonight. I can relate this topic to B&T too which might be interesting (or confounding!)

Thanks. I'll message you my email address again. Would you also copy in the material and questions you asked Nagel to which he responded in email? It would also be very good to have your notes concerning the View from Nowhere and the relation of your ideas to B&T? I want to understand how you see all of this.

Above you wrote in response to Steve: "I thought I would make no attempt to avoid obscurity to see if that leant me anymore credibility—apparently not." I think you have plenty of credibility with Steve and you certainly do with me.
 
I'm rereading the last few pages of the thread and want to quote this very clear statement made yesterday by Pharoah:

On Being and God:
I stand to be corrected, but it seems to me that there is a close if not intimate relation between phenomenology and Being. An adoption of one for the other. However, I see Being as extending beyond phenomena: that one's phenomenological description and interpretation of Being is particular of man but never of a particular man - it is false to confine Being to-the-world. And so I view existentialism is eliminativist: denying the reality of particular-Being (namely, in my case, my particular Being - for everyone speaks of their own: this is not my Being about which they speak. It is not even Their own) and in doing so can claim the death of God. But in me, a spirit can but live, though everywhere else, through our contemplations, this spirit we call God might be lost, provoking a powerfully intellectual anti-thesim. The intellectual eliminativist stance is always powerful and deeply so, for it denies the dialogue: it proclaims and rejoices in its ignorance [bother! I'm beginning to sound like a phenomenologist]

I want to declare my complete agreement with this: "The intellectual eliminativist stance is always powerful and deeply so, for it denies the dialogue: it proclaims and rejoices in its ignorance." Not only phenomenologists recognize this. It is one of the major problems of our time given the propagation and trickling down of half-thought and undefended presuppositional claims dominant in scientific materialism and in materialism in general.
 
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moral facts: the trouble is I don't think facts exist beyond the constructs that relate to them, so that does complicate things. However, that morality is merely a conceptual construct about correct action derived from the reality of the hierarchical organisation of physical interqction is not to say it is not real and it is not to say that it is an inevitable condition that a physical universe must realise. It is real, but it is not rigidly designated outside of this intractive conplexity.

This is also interesting and bears further exploration, reflection, and discussion. At this point I want to respond only to the last sentence:


"It [morality] is real, but it is not rigidly designated outside of this intractive conplexity."

As the existence we know takes place (to our knowledge) only *inside* this interactive complexity, I don't see where we find obvious grounds on which to entertain what might exist in terms of morality *outside* this situated existence -- except that grounds yet to be fully explored and articulated appear to exist in psychic and parapsychological investigations and research (as well as in the spiritual philosophies developed in the East) that bear on the full nature of human being with moral implications that can be pursued.. That's how this thread got its name and why consciousness cannot be understood without including the exploration of what has been learned in those disciplines.
 
@Constance I am sorry you did not get the email... drop me your email and I'll give it another attempt.

I haven't written up my notes from Nagel's book yet, so I'll do so tonight. I can relate this topic to B&T too which might be interesting (or confounding!)

@smcder: you may remember the comments of a reviewer to my AJP submission... that I confused the metaphysical with the epistemiological through my use of the terms 'information' and 'fact' in the same sentence.

Now... I reject the notion that there is such a thing as observer-independent facts. This view may be misconstrued as implying that I am an idealist—that i am of the view that facts are (mind) dependent in some way. But this is not the case.

Morality concerns itself with the evaluation of actions and the determination of principles underlying Good action. To try and find such rigid designations—i.e., moral facts—is to believe there are principles: to believe there are indomitable moral ideals (heaven forbid ideologies).
But from my stance, morality relates to action: it relates to responding to the world. Morality is a necessary evolutionary consequence of the hierarchical constructs. Each construct reacts to interactions:

Good reaction to enviornment in replicating organisms ensures the survival of species; phenomenal experience is qualitative: it has good and bad qualities which mitigate behavioural response; the conceptualising human looks to principles underlying the good and bad of experience.
HCT says something of the origin of morality—of the 'cause to act' and our conceptual contemplation of 'principles of action'. But this morality is of the world to: it has to exist in the physical world whether we know of it or not. HCT explains that morality had to have evolved by accident... by trial and error. The next hierarchical level will transcend this (by extrapolation this must be the case)
So am I a moral realist? Yes and no I think.

Morality concerns itself with the evaluation of actions and the determination of principles underlying Good action.

To try and find such rigid designations—i.e., moral facts—is to believe there are principles: to believe there are indomitable moral ideals (heaven forbid ideologies).

Good reaction to enviornment in replicating organisms ensures the survival of species; - what relationship does this have to morality?

phenomenal experience is qualitative: it has good and bad qualities which mitigate behavioural response; the conceptualising human looks to principles underlying the good and bad of experience.

Can you give an example of such principles?

Morality concerns itself with the evaluation of actions and the determination of principles underlying Good action. To try and find such rigid designations—i.e., moral facts—is to believe there are principles: to believe there are indomitable moral ideals (heaven forbid ideologies).

Not sure yet about the (quick path) from moral facts to indomitable moral ideals to ideologies - although it feels like "heaven forbid ideologies" is taking an ideological stance on your part?

Does HCT give you, personally, the tools with which to make moral decisions?
 
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Strawson on naive moral realism and mathematical truths

@Pharoah - yes I remember what you said about Strawson ...
 
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