Consciousness and the Paranormal — Part 7

[Randall]

Oh that old trick! I call it R5...because its the fifth most often used one in your bag of tricks ... YOU prove it. ;-)

If proof is evidence that is sufficient to justify belief, then I have already proved it to my satisfaction, first by independent logical deduction, and secondly by verification through the research done by others. If that same evidence isn't sufficient for you, I'd be curious to know what would be?

 

[Randall]

Go see Searle.

Searle's not here and his presence is not required, though it would certainly be more than welcomed ;-)

 

[smcder]

If proof is evidence that is sufficient to justify belief, then I have already proved it to my satisfaction, first by independent logical deduction, and secondly by verification through the research done by others. If that same evidence isn't sufficient for you, I'd be curious to know what would be?

And that is R6... Right on time. I guess you'll have to just be curious.



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[smcder]

Searle's not here and the reason you gave, and my counterpoint don't require him to be here.

I'm busy building robots. Go away. If you want to read and learn and discuss I'll be here. If you want to whirl a bunch of empty rhetoric around the room ... Then I'll go build robots with Searle.

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[Randall]

I'm busy building robots. Go away. If you want to read and learn and discuss I'll be here. If you want to whirl a bunch of empty rhetoric around the room ... Then I'll go build robots with Searle.

Your reply is "empty rhetoric". It has no substance at all. But it is entertaining. Have you got any operational robots yet?

 

[smcder]

Your reply is "empty rhetoric". It has no substance at all. But it is entertaining. Have you got any operational robots yet?

I'm too old for these tricks Randall. Not enough time left, sorry.

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[Randall]

I'm too old for these tricks Randall. Not enough time left, sorry.

Time left? What are you talking about?

 

[smcder]

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[smcder]

I prefer complex machines or automata or ... Because robots, like God, are wonderfully useful words that are wonderfully and fearfully misused.

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[smcder]

I know that some neurophenomenologists such s Thompson have suggested that so-called dreamless sleep is not sans consciousness. (Thompson holds an emergentist approach to consciousness btw.)

However, the dissolution of consciousness during anesthesia and more so it's apparent absence and subsequent emergence as the fetus develops into a child still hold. Certain vegetative states can be noted as well.

Memory ...

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[smcder]

Soupie these discussions bring us to issues about training the attention. Thompson discusses valuing sleep states ... Practicing mindfulness in these states and looking at or exploring reports from those who do. In this discussion there has been a tendency to prejudice personal experience over such reports. "I only remember so far back ..." ... By the way how do you know you have dreamless sleep? But those who train the awareness have different reports.

Your response?

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[smcder]

Searle on Rationality:
John Searle - Wikipedia

Cf the post above from Pearle on the computational advantages of the illusion of free will ... Or how to stop worrying and learn to build soccer playing robots.

To me the interesting thing IS the difference in human and machine intelligences.


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[Constance]

Engines of Evidence | Edge.org
This is a good discussion underlining a key division in AI and relevant to consciousness: Bayesian/probabilistic "deep learning, Causality

See also: bayesianism and causality, or, why i am only a half ... - UCLA Computer Science ... PDF
(sorry link didn't come through)

I'm delighted to see that Steve has regenerated discussion in this thread. I'm about to read "Engines of Evidence" at Edge, and also want to read the second link highlighted in blue in his post above, which apparently didn't come through. Steve, can you access and post that link when you get a chance to do so? Thanks. Many thanks.

 

[smcder]

In what respect do you see what I was saying as unfalsifiable? You mean this:

That has no bearing. Rational verification doesn't have to be in real-time. It can be done after-the-fact, and is usually done after-the-fact, which is why it's called "verification".

But THAT rational verification is itself preceded by unconscious processes ... liopy!

See Searle's comment that rationality presupposes free will.

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[smcder]

Searle thinks whether we really have free will or not is an open question, but considers its absence highly unappealing because it makes the feeling of freedom of will an epiphenomenon, which is highly unlikely from the evolutionary point of view given its biological cost. He also says: " All rational activity presupposes free will ".[49]

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[Randall]

Searle thinks whether we really have free will or not is an open question, but considers its absence highly unappealing because it makes the feeling of freedom of will an epiphenomenon, which is highly unlikely from the evolutionary point of view given its biological cost. He also says: " All rational activity presupposes free will ".[49]

Sure, but that still brings us back to what he means by "free will". Given a brain based model for decision making, it's still a fact that the choices we become conscious of are formed before we become conscious of them. But I'm more curious about your comment on not having the time to discuss things? Is that for positive reasons, like you've found a new job and stuff to do? What is taking up your time these days?

 

[smcder]

Sure, but that still brings us back to what he means by "free will". Given a brain based model for decision making, it's still a fact that the choices we become conscious of are formed before we become conscious of them. But I'm more curious about your comment on not having the time to discuss things? Is that for positive reasons, like you've found a new job and stuff to do? What is taking up your time these days?

Don't be nosey. And I meant to tell you the whole pop psy/religious thing you so cleverly "didn't go into" won't fly ... We're well past Skepticism 101.



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[smcder]

Sure, but that still brings us back to what he means by "free will". Given a brain based model for decision making, it's still a fact that the choices we become conscious of are formed before we become conscious of them. But I'm more curious about your comment on not having the time to discuss things? Is that for positive reasons, like you've found a new job and stuff to do? What is taking up your time these days?

Here:

John Searle

Searle is caught out using your:

"it's a scientifically proven fact, Andy!"



To bring a little Quantum Qraziness to the table.



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[Soupie]

Soupie these discussions bring us to issues about training the attention. Thompson discusses valuing sleep states ... Practicing mindfulness in these states and looking at or exploring reports from those who do. In this discussion there has been a tendency to prejudice personal experience over such reports. "I only remember so far back ..." ... By the way how do you know you have dreamless sleep? But those who train the awareness have different reports.

Your response?

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Sometimes when i wake up i recall having dreamed; sometimes when i wake up i dont recall having dreamed. Im making the assumption that when i dont recall having dreamed, then i havent dreamed. Or that if i did dream, i wasnt conscious while dreaming.

Are there any reports of people remaining conscious while under anesthesia? I will google it.

 

[smcder]

Sometimes when i wake up i recall having dreamed; sometimes when i wake up i dont recall having dreamed. Im making the assumption that when i dont recall having dreamed, then i havent dreamed. Or that if i did dream, i wasnt conscious while dreaming.

Are there any reports of people remaining conscious while under anesthesia? I will google it.

Why assume? REM studies suggest we dream when we don't remember. But there are also nonREM periods, I think.

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