smcder
Paranormal Adept
Does Consciousness Cause the Cosmos? | Closer to Truth
Around 5 min in, Hoffman discusses "taste" and "elegance"
Around 5 min in, Hoffman discusses "taste" and "elegance"
NEW! LOWEST RATES EVER -- SUPPORT THE SHOW AND ENJOY THE VERY BEST PREMIUM PARACAST EXPERIENCE! Welcome to The Paracast+, eight years young! For a low subscription fee, you can download the ad-free version of The Paracast and the exclusive, member-only, After The Paracast bonus podcast, featuring color commentary, exclusive interviews, the continuation of interviews that began on the main episode of The Paracast. We also offer lifetime memberships! Flash! Take advantage of our lowest rates ever! Act now! It's easier than ever to susbcribe! You can sign up right here!
The "stream of consciousness" is the mind, so while it is confusing, it's not incoherent."There's no doubt that how our body interacts with the world effects our stream of consciousness. But I'm talking about the body on the level of cells, molecules, and atoms. The body beyond the level generally perceptible to the naked eye."
But its all consciousness right? So isn't it confusing to maintain talk about the body effecting stream of consciousness.
Yes, but what you are not seeing is that this isn't any different than what physics is currently doing.Don't we need to talk in terms of CAs or one conscious process effecting another?
The "stream of consciousness" is the mind, so while it is confusing, it's not incoherent.
But yes, it is all consciousness. (Easier to think of as being.)
The confusion arises when perception enters the picture and there appears to be a duality between our stream of consciousness (mind) and our body (a perceptual icon of our mind).
Yes, but what you are not seeing is that this isn't any different than what physics is currently doing.
A "conscious process" is simply a process within being. What quantum and classical physics are attempting to do is talk about processes effecting one another.
Stop thinking of consciousness as mind—affect, concept, perception, etc. Consciousness (feeling) is not mind.
Also, stop thinking of CR only in the manner that Hoffman frames it.
Did you see the post where I said that Dennett's approach was essentially panpsychism. To which Michael Allen liked and perhaps agreed?
Being and consciousness are one and the same. Consciousness (feeling) is not something that emerges from some physical mechanism.
My approach to CR is more like Strawson panpsychism in that I think being/consciousness has properties that allow it to interact and evolve.
When physicists are researching these properties, they are researching being/consciousness.
The trick is that our perceptual minds—which are constituted of being/consciousness—are our Interface with being/consciousness.
So how do we know which properties are properties of being/consciousness and which are properties of our minds (complex structure within being).
We. Don't. Know.
Right. He's not denying consciousness exists so much as he's denying it exists as an ontologically distinct thing/object/substance.
This take on Hegel comes to mind again:
"What Hegel argues is that what seems to us as given in immediate sensation is anything but; to focus on a "bit" of sensation, say a patch of color or a flavor, is not to grasp an object-like thing, but to actually experience an underlying process. Colors and tastes change in intensity; so do all of our sensory perceptions and concepts in thought. What seems to us as a fixed and orderly Being is unmasked as a deeper process of historically-unfolding becoming."
My issue with Dennet's position is the stance that the Q domain is really real while everything else we experience is a phenomenon. The line he draws seems arbitrary. I think Hoffman's stance as far as where the line is (i.e. there is no line) makes more sense.
Anyhow I also agree with Strawson who says we don't know enough about this stuff we call the physical to say it isn't inherently conscious.
In a way this fits with Dennet, although he wouldn't see it this way: If he doesn't believe consciousness emerges nor is a distinct substance, then... consciousness just is primary?
Eh, panpsychism?
Good question me it's something I've been wanting to get to."The "stream of consciousness" is the mind."
(no unconscious?)
"Stop thinking of consciousness as mind—affect, concept, perception, etc. Consciousness (feeling) is not mind."
Let's do that again ...
The "stream of consciousness" is the mind."
"Stop thinking of consciousness as mind—affect, concept, perception, etc. Consciousness (feeling) is not mind."
"Consciousness (feeling) is not mind." : "The "stream of consciousness" is the mind."
Well, that's clear ...
Right. Everything is a process in being. Including minds.What does it mean to say something is a process in being? What else would it be a process in?
It doesn't "explain" them. It approaches them in the same manner as main stream science. We make discovers via experimentation and observation. However as above we must discern between mind independent and mind dependent processes. I feel we are in the infancy of doing this.How does your version of CR explain matter, the fundamental forces, the Big Bang, the genesis and structure of space-time, the laws of physics, evolution by natural selection, and the many neural correlates of consciousness?
Good question me it's something I've been wanting to get to.
One of the conceptual challenges with the notion of CR is discontinuity vs continuity.
How can consciousness be fundamental if it goes away when I sleep, die, or under go anesthesia?
The answer is that the mind goes away (dissipates), not consciousness.
But if consciousness/feeling is fundamental shouldn't I always feel like something, even in those circumstances above where "I" refers to my body.
The answer is that you (your body) may always feel like something but that you (your mind) may not always remember it later.
This is essentially the difference between mind and consciousness.
This relates to he unconscious as well. And other questions I've asked. Why are some processes of our body correlated with our stream of consciousness (mind) at any given moment while others are not.
My answer is that while consciousness as a substrate is continuous and fundamental, minds (streams of consciousness) are discontinuous, emergent, and temporal.
Right. Everything is a process in being. Including minds.
The distinction I'm trying to make is between mind independent processes and mind dependent processes.
It doesn't "explain" them. It approaches them in the same manner as main stream science. We make discovers via experimentation and observation. However as above we must discern between mind independent and mind dependent processes. I feel we are in the infancy of doing this.
Yes, I will try to write something up.
Honestly, I'm in the camp that says we can't yet distinquish between mind-dep and mind-in processes. I do believe there is a mind-in reality external to my stream of consciousness. I do believe there are others minds and a real, palpable world.
But I have bought into the notion that our perceptions of reality are an entirely human perspective. A la if horses had gods that would look like horses. I do believe we have evolved over billions of years. We and world in which we exist is infinitely (?) complex.
As I've noted it would be helpful to us as a species to have another intelligent species to "prune our bush" as Pederson put it.
When an American travels to another country we realize differences that we didn't know existed. If we interfaces with an alien species would they help reveal our billions of years evolved human way of knowing the world?
I don't think I can come up with a falsifiable claim per se, but maybe there is a thought experiment like chalmers conceivavility argument that could help people grok (not agree with per se) this approach.
Good grief. The phenomenological philosophers I've been reading for years are unrecognizeable in this extract from Harman. I doubt that he's read phenomenological philosophy in any depth at all.
Lots of declarations and claims here but no answers to my questions.
Hoffman: "There are of course many other critiques of an approach that takes consciousness to be fundamental: How can such an approach explain matter, the fundamental forces, the Big Bang, the genesis and structure of space-time, the laws of physics, evolution by natural selection, and the many neural correlates of consciousness?
These are non-trivial challenges that must be faced by the theory of conscious agents. But for the moment we will postpone them and develop the theory of conscious agents itself."
"The fact that neurons, at some level, have needs and aims of their own may ground a kind of ‘nano-intentionality’ that provides a basis for human cognition."
There's just no short-cut or substitute. I'll pull out my copy of Being and Time tonight.