Consciousness and the Paranormal

[Burnt State]

The problem is that the subject matter is tainted, so are the results and the discoveries are minimal or non-existent. Radin's advice makes perfect sense.

Sorry, I missed it - what is the advice by Radin you are referring to here?

That's a misquote. It should read Hansen, not Radin, re: his wariness exprsessed towards "budding parapsychologists."

 

[Constance]

Two months of research over a 100 year or so history is pretty slack. It's not a wonder that parapsychology is poked at like it's Swiss cheese. While it may have a lengthy history, if those RV'ers charging exorbitant fees for learning protocols etc. were productive then we would see a lot more of those training facilities making $$$ and we would also see a lot of skewed corporate warfare. But we don't because internet attacks are much more useful. I don't believe corporations have their own private witches or soothsayers, though it presents an interesting alternate reality more in keeping with a history of the Shawman left in the dust. I think, like UFO research, it is more money and time needed. There's a similar quote about how much time has been invested in UFO research and I think it's about 6 months. The problem is that the subject matter is tainted, so are the results and the discoveries are minimal or non-existent. Radin's advice makes perfect sense.

I gather what you meant to say is that what's been 'slack' has not been paranormal research but the institutional scientific refusal to engage it? But perhaps not. Your meaning is not clear, so would you clarify what you've written there?

 

[Constance]

The abstracts for the papers presented at the Endophysics conference I cited above (with reference to the Jahn and Dunne paper presented there) are available at this scribd link and provide an overview of some of the new physical theory being developed which recognizes the observer, subjectivity, and consciousness in approaching the question of the nature of reality.

Endophysics, Time, Quantum

The papers themselves have been published in the volume linked below, priced at a level that requires most of us to obtain library copies. It is well worth the time required to explore these newer developments in physical theory since it has, of course, been the standard reductivist premises of preceding physical theory that have underwritten the failure of science to investigate 'paranormal' experience and capabilities.


Note that the order of the presentations differs between the order of the volume's table of contents, which likely represents the actual order of presentations at the conference. The link I have to the abstracts themselves seems to have been provided as the conference was being organized.

 

[Tyger]

After Constance indicating that Ufology's 'critical thinking' website was 'fishy' the more one investigates it, Ufology's response was this -

Although the FFCA website isn't the only resource out there for critical thinking, it does appear to be among the best, and if you have some problem with it, I suggest you contact the organization and inform them.

Do you read, Ufology? Constance - and Steve - have done some 'due diligence' on the site you are always promoting and they have turned up what has all the earmarks of a bogus site.

Personally, I don't find the fact that they promote critical thinking or charge for books, seminars and courses to be particularly offensive, nor am I surprised that a few things on the website may need updating, that's just the nature of most websites.

It goes far beyond 'updating'. The information itself appears 'lifted', scrambled and the new 'omelette' being served up for cash money appears dubious.

You are minimizing what has been disclosed. You have said on this thread that the website you are promoting is 'a recognized independent source of the highest caliber.' Not so - it is neither 'recognized' (by who - can you say?) nor is it 'of the highest calibre'. It appears to be a carefully constructed website intended to ensnare the innocent and unwary - emptying their pockets of money. (Just like the Psychic 800 numbers you like to go on about, Ufology - just btw. Scamming is a negative trait of human nature - indulged by 'so-called psychics' as by 'so-called scientists/academicians').

You had brought up the issue of criteria for critical thinking. I responded with criteria from a recognized independent source of the highest caliber. It was a perfectly valid response, no need for you to be so snippy.

You avoided answering Constance's request -

I now doubt that you've read the site yourself since you're unable to outline or summarize its major claims. I have read some sections of the site on two occasions in the past when you similarly waved your hands, spoke the phrase 'critical thinking', and linked the site, and I found nothing of consequence there. Tell us what you find there that relieves you of the obligation to learn more about the topics and subjects you persistently dismiss in this discussion and its predecessor. In other words, not to put too fine a point on it, please put up or shut up.

"Tell us what you find there that relieves you of the obligation to learn more about the topics and subjects you persistently dismiss in this discussion and its predecessor."

The question stands: what do you find on the critical thinking website that relieves you of the obligation to learn more about topics and subjects you persistently dismiss?

 

[smcder]

Although the FFCA website isn't the only resource out there for critical thinking, it does appear to be among the best, and if you have some problem with it, I suggest you contact the organization and inform them. Personally, I don't find the fact that they promote critical thinking or charge for books, seminars and courses to be particularly offensive, nor am I surprised that a few things on the website may need updating, that's just the nature of most websites. Here's something else for you to consider: https://www.theparacast.com/forum/threads/philosophy-science-and-the-unexplained.14196/page-43#post-180360

Do you have any financial ties to the FFCA website? Do you sell, teach or promote the material for payment or receive any financial benefit of any kind from the organization?

 

[Burnt State]

I gather what you meant to say is that what's been 'slack' has not been paranormal research but the institutional scientific refusal to engage it? But perhaps not. Your meaning is not clear, so would you clarify what you've written there?

sorry, for the lack of clarity - i get slack myself sometimes as i try to squeeze in semi-sensible comments into this ongoing, diligent discussion. i meant to imply that the lack of engagement has been slack and that the two months doesn't add up to much at all. the same issue plagues UFO research. none of these areas will produce results until they are accepted academically as reasonable areas of pursuit and then are well-funded; because, the new frontiers of learning and discovery that they offer are just staggering - and pretty damn exciting - right? these fields offer up so much for the imaginative thinker, but without funding you're just killing time, or desperately seeking a sugar daddy, or momma, with a paranormal sweet tooth. it seems that when someone with $$$ did take a serious interest in the phenomenon a la skinwalker ranch, the man with the purse strings kept all the data to himself. he took the ball and left the field and nothing has been shared with anyone.

what's interesting about Utts' material and the engagement with Hyman is that the stringent requirements are being defined and that's a great first step and it does highlight that the initial testing and experimental legacy of parapsychology is something that's been in devlopment for a long time.

i recall some of Radin's theories on Greg Bishop's show and his explanations around how time worked seemed to be taking us back to the SRI model of the universe is a hologram and you can access all of it at any slice. that's grossly simplifying the discussion but that's about as graspable as it got. I'm sure that the papers are much more defined. i will be staying tuned.

 

[smcder]

. . .

what's interesting about Utts' material and the engagement with Hyman is that the stringent requirements are being defined and that's a great first step and it does highlight that the initial testing and experimental legacy of parapsychology is something that's been in devlopment for a long time.

. . .

tired from work but quick comment:

what's interesting about Utts' material and the engagement with Hyman is that the stringent requirements are being defined and that's a great first step and it does highlight that the initial testing and experimental legacy of parapsychology is something that's been in devlopment for a long time.

Not sure if it's your exact point but I wonder if what has been learned about tightening controls in parapsychology experiments has transferred over to experimental design in other fields? If so, the skeptics and the para-pyschologists get credit!

 

[smcder]

Just listened to this today:

Cosmic Habituation - Radiolab

good and relevant to this thread . . . but I don't care for the style of the podcast, but it is short at least!

 

[Burnt State]

but, hey, @ufology , why are we slowing down the discussion with counterposting on what open-mindedness is and discussion on critical thinking? that's not a diligent use of time. everyone here is pretty bright and thoughtful and they are reading some pretty lengthy, academic content and wade through the tough stuff. what gets posted by way of summation and analysis demonstrates some pretty decent critical thinking no? i think a good tact to take is to also read through that content to see what, if any gains, can be made through these more recent investigations into paranormal phenomenon. at the very least it offers opportunities to parallel new thoughts and creative ideas on your favourite topic - the UFO! all this banter is slowing down the progress and not fulfilling the goal of the thread. i know you like to be devil's advocate and there have been many times that i have valued this position of yours and even shocked, by what you are are willing to defend or even believe, in a pleasantly surprising way. but in this thread it's not pushing things forward and these people are labouring out here so lend a hand and a shovel or watch from the sidelines (like me) and see where they get instead of impeding progress. the content that they are unearthing appears to be the latest cutting edge material along with a clear historical line into a field given even less time than UFO's. i think that deserves more celebration and less molasses in their tracks. just a thought.

 

[Tyger]

Just listened to this today:

Cosmic Habituation - Radiolab

good and relevant to this thread . . . but I don't care for the style of the podcast, but it is short at least!

Aw, really? I lurve Radiolab. And weren't they the cutest thing? About the chickadees 'getting wind' of the 'short feather' stuff - a hoot. And then observing to get the statistics back up. This is the way it is when you get science-types together - it is so much fun! Ideas just roll.

The idea of creation - that we create what we see is very important - this is key. I have an interview video I'd like to link to that is pertinent to this idea but I'll have to do it on the weekend. Needs some context, too. This is exciting stuff - this is what I am really interested in. It's an idea that is beginning to emerge in general - and it's a tough one for many people, because just like was said in the Radiolab piece, we live with the belief, the assumption, that reality is somehow 'solid', dependable.

A bit of a curve - it may be dependable but not in the solid way we think. Those who have been able to do certain inner work have the experience of a 'shortening' between what one thinks and what happens. This is key imo.

 

[smcder]

Aw, really? I lurve Radiolab. And weren't they the cutest thing? About the chickadees 'getting wind' of the 'short feather' stuff - a hoot. And then observing to get the statistics back up. This is the way it is when you get science-types together - it is so much fun! Ideas just roll.

The idea of creation - that we create what we see is very important - this is key. I have an interview video I'd like to link to that is pertinent to this idea but I'll have to do it on the weekend. Needs some context, too. This is exciting stuff - this is what I am really interested in. It's an idea that is beginning to emerge in general - and it's a tough one for many people, because just like was said in the Radiolab piece, we live with the belief, the assumption, that reality is somehow 'solid', dependable.

A bit of a curve - it may be dependable but not in the solid way we think. Those who have been able to do certain inner work have the experience of a 'shortening' between what one thinks and what happens. This is key imo.

It may have just hit me the wrong way this morning . . . I have several more episodes on my player to listen to, so I'll give them another chance!

A bit of a curve - it may be dependable but not in the solid way we think.

Intriguing - I want to hear more about that.

Those who have been able to do certain inner work have the experience of a 'shortening' between what one thinks and what happens.

Sometimes I have the sense that I am experiencing that, my sense of that is very subjective of course.

 

[smcder]

sorry, for the lack of clarity - i get slack myself sometimes as i try to squeeze in semi-sensible comments into this ongoing, diligent discussion. i meant to imply that the lack of engagement has been slack and that the two months doesn't add up to much at all. the same issue plagues UFO research. none of these areas will produce results until they are accepted academically as reasonable areas of pursuit and then are well-funded; because, the new frontiers of learning and discovery that they offer are just staggering - and pretty damn exciting - right? these fields offer up so much for the imaginative thinker, but without funding you're just killing time, or desperately seeking a sugar daddy, or momma, with a paranormal sweet tooth. it seems that when someone with $$$ did take a serious interest in the phenomenon a la skinwalker ranch, the man with the purse strings kept all the data to himself. he took the ball and left the field and nothing has been shared with anyone.

. . .

I don't want to lose sight of Hansen's Trickster theory in regard to this - but one question I have about his theory is if the liminal, the marginal shifts - he notes that in times of de-structuring, political instability like when the USSR broke up - there is a re-surgence of paranormal phenomena, but the line always seems to be the same, in other words I don't understand him to say that the paranormal topics we discuss today will become mainstream some day and then the margins will be pushed back and we'll have new paranormal topics, a new margin to deal with but these phenomena will behave the same way - rather it seems by his theory the specific paranormal topics, the scope of the paranormal seems perennial. Our relationship to it varies with the structure of society. So he seems to predict that 1) there will be no mainstream academic acceptance and 2) no matter how rigorous the controls and how many replications and how strong the results, it will be rejected - even if this requires alterations in very basic aspects of science . . .

 

[smcder]

This page describes the Bem research and related theoretical issues:

h+ Magazine | Covering technological, scientific, and cultural trends that are changing human beings in fundamental ways.

fascinating graphs on belief in ESP by demographics . . . also, Bem is a stage magician! (@Tyger) . . .

 

[smcder]

sorry, for the lack of clarity - i get slack myself sometimes as i try to squeeze in semi-sensible comments into this ongoing, diligent discussion. i meant to imply that the lack of engagement has been slack and that the two months doesn't add up to much at all. the same issue plagues UFO research. . . .

i meant to imply that the lack of engagement has been slack and that the two months doesn't add up to much at all.

Have a look at the article Constance posted:

h+ Magazine | Covering technological, scientific, and cultural trends that are changing human beings in fundamental ways.

the bit on the "file drawer effect" - to see how lack of funding and research in parapsychology has an up side . . .

 

[smcder]

The abstracts for the papers presented at the Endophysics conference I cited above (with reference to the Jahn and Dunne paper presented there) are available at this scribd link and provide an overview of some of the new physical theory being developed which recognizes the observer, subjectivity, and consciousness in approaching the question of the nature of reality.

Endophysics, Time, Quantum

. . .

I'm trying to find my way in to the theory side - reading the "theory" section of
Radin's site: www.deanradin.com/evidence - observational theory and the Copenhagen interpretation keep coming up there and in your links Constance . . . I've never really tried to get much into Quantum Mechanics, but looks like it's unavoidable! From Radin's theory section, this is a great place for folks to start:

http://deanradin.com/evidence/Henry2005Nature.pdf

maybe learning a bit of theory will help as I read the research . . .

 

[smcder]

Although the FFCA website isn't the only resource out there for critical thinking, it does appear to be among the best, and if you have some problem with it, I suggest you contact the organization and inform them. Personally, I don't find the fact that they promote critical thinking or charge for books, seminars and courses to be particularly offensive, nor am I surprised that a few things on the website may need updating, that's just the nature of most websites. Here's something else for you to consider: https://www.theparacast.com/forum/threads/philosophy-science-and-the-unexplained.14196/page-43#post-180360

That's a good suggestion - I'm interested in the critical thinking material and may purchase one of the books from Amazon to read . . . and I will log in (I got a free membership) to the Foundation and see if I can find a contact and ask them if they have any comment on how the lawsuit may affect their business (I don't want to sign up for a course if they aren't going to be around) and also ask if they can refer me to any independent assessment of their work. I'll report back to the thread what response I get. - . . . OK, I just sent an e-mail to their feedback form (I couldn't find a specific e-mail on the website - do you have one?) the form allows subjects:

billing
online membership
ordering an item
technical problems
other

so I chose "other" - indicating where I heard about the foundation and asking for independent review of their work and also asked them if they have a statement on the future integrity and solvency of the organization in light of the lawsuit.

 

[Burnt State]

i meant to imply that the lack of engagement has been slack and that the two months doesn't add up to much at all.

Have a look at the article Constance posted:

h+ Magazine | Covering technological, scientific, and cultural trends that are changing human beings in fundamental ways.

the bit on the "file drawer effect" - to see how lack of funding and research in parapsychology has an up side . . .

Thanks, this was a very good overview of the subject matter including the features of experimntation and doubt, or skeptical thinking. This was the most intriguing quote for me, "May and Spottiswoode’s conclusion? 'AC [anomalous cognition] performance is modulated by a parameter which varies with solar activity.'" If true, this is at least indicative of other interactions taking place that help psi effects along and would offer more clues to understanding the mechanism.

And while I'm no statistician, and the article even spoke to this, the 53% anticipatory erotica stimulus effect does not shake my tail. And again, without replication there's not a lot to work with or to help convince others. If there are truly gifted people then they should be the test subjects. These test subjects should not be allowed to Swann the tests and start working with the testers to redefine the test due to personal boredom.

It's also interesting to note that parapsychology does exist globally as a phenomenon that is studied. However my favourite title was, " Mental Radio," very poetic that. It conjures up images of being able to tune in voices from elsewhere with ease, the way I imagine contactees do it, or so they believe.

Re: Your other point about how in times of destructuring, psi phenomenon goes on an upswing: Chris O'Brien has alluded to similar ideas previously where somehow the populous is some kind of unconscious participant in the manifestation of the phenomenon. I'm highly intrigued by these ideas that something outside of us is also a part of us. Like our separation from nature that promoted our literary selves to make the linguistic magic of metaphor to help us feel more a part of things, I wonder at the strange possibility of our minds manifesting orbs, linking through all points in time, seeing ghosts etc.. Of course I have zero proof of such things, only the anecdotal evidence of the waves of sightings during high points of human interaction i.e. war and foo fighters.

 

[smcder]

Thanks, this was a very good overview of the subject matter including the features of experimntation and doubt, or skeptical thinking. This was the most intriguing quote for me, "May and Spottiswoode’s conclusion? 'AC [anomalous cognition] performance is modulated by a parameter which varies with solar activity.'" If true, this is at least indicative of other interactions taking place that help psi effects along and would offer more clues to understanding the mechanism.

And while I'm no statistician, and the article even spoke to this, the 53% anticipatory erotica stimulus effect does not shake my tail. And again, without replication there's not a lot to work with or to help convince others. If there are truly gifted people then they should be the test subjects. These test subjects should not be allowed to Swann the tests and start working with the testers to redefine the test due to personal boredom.

It's also interesting to note that parapsychology does exist globally as a phenomenon that is studied. However my favourite title was, " Mental Radio," very poetic that. It conjures up images of being able to tune in voices from elsewhere with ease, the way I imagine contactees do it, or so they believe.

Re: Your other point about how in times of destructuring, psi phenomenon goes on an upswing: Chris O'Brien has alluded to similar ideas previously where somehow the populous is some kind of unconscious participant in the manifestation of the phenomenon. I'm highly intrigued by these ideas that something outside of us is also a part of us. Like our separation from nature that promoted our literary selves to make the linguistic magic of metaphor to help us feel more a part of things, I wonder at the strange possibility of our minds manifesting orbs, linking through all points in time, seeing ghosts etc.. Of course I have zero proof of such things, only the anecdotal evidence of the waves of sightings during high points of human interaction i.e. war and foo fighters.

And while I'm no statistician, and the article even spoke to this, the 53% anticipatory erotica stimulus effect does not shake my tail.

I won't put a humorous spin on that comment . . . but I could! ;-) Can you unpack this for me, 53% isn't a sufficient effect size or . . . ? If it's effect size - at least two articles posted on the thread (Utts and Radin) discuss this - I can try to pull out their arguments for discussion.

 

[Tyger]

Relevant to this thread how exactly? I loved the summing up, to paraphrase: "Maybe we should just study the decline effect and it will just go away."

If you seriously are asking this question then it is clear you have not been able to follow what is being discussed here. You need to start reading the links supplied, methinks - and less seek to have others 'perform' for you. Valid questions - yes, but questions stemming from just sheer laziness, or a desire to take up someone's time, no. You've got to start trying to access higher order thinking.

Better, because this question suggests that you are perhaps either clueless or don't think there is a relevance - could you flesh out your thoughts here. Instead of just asking a 6 word question that puts the onus on another to think something through for you - do the lay-out yourself. Explain why or how it is that you are befuddled.

Do you have any financial ties to the FFCA website? Do you sell, teach or promote the material for payment or receive any financial benefit of any kind from the organization?

I am interested in your answer to this question, Ufology.

 

[Randall]

Do you have any financial ties to the FFCA website? Do you sell, teach or promote the material for payment or receive any financial benefit of any kind from the organization?

No. But here's another short exposé on critical thinking: Philosophy, Science, and the Unexplained | Page 44 | The Paracast Community Forums