Consciousness and the Paranormal

[boomerang]

It seems in this thread like in all threads they degenerate into ego battles, blind contradiction and confused definitions based on the loaded expectations and personal interpretations people have on language. thus in part due to how we see the world through words.

Yes. First people debate over how many angels can sit on the head of a pin. Then they wind up sprouting imaginary wings and duking it out over seating space.

Somebody wake me when the alter call begins so I can silently sneak out the back way.

 

[trainedobserver]

You don't seriously believe that do you?
Isn't that the point of scientific enquiry?

Yes, and what I was talking about were spiritual pursuits encouraged by religious myth, not scientific inquiry. The promises laid out by supernatural claims of human perfection, ascension to higher plains of existence, and communion with higher "spiritual" beings are pie in the sky dead ends.

Scientific inquiry on the other hand, seems to me to be the best attempt yet to deal with things as they are to better the human condition rather than pursuing something hoped for but ultimately unrealizable as presented in religious and spiritual myth.

The Arts are human spirituality in my book. The inner life of the mind and the interplay of our emotions with our surroundings constitutes spiritual life to me. The supernatural other-worldly ethereal realm notion of spirit and spirituality is a false interpretation and representation of this inner life of the mind fostered by superstition, delusion, and downright chicanery in my estimation.

Anyway the real talk about consciousness and the only science making any new discoveries that are exciting and important and at all relevant is neuroscience .

Absolutely.

Great post. That's the most I've seen out of you in a while.

 

[trainedobserver]

Yes. First people debate over how many angels can sit on the head of a pin.

Pfffft! Everyone knows the answer is 9 unless you're using pigmy angels, then you can manage an even dozen. I've got a photograph around here somewhere ...

 

[manxman]

depends on the size of the pin m8, and the angels, its a grey area imo.

 

[nameless]

Yes, and what I was talking about were spiritual pursuits encouraged by religious myth.....
Absolutely

Great post. That's the most I've seen out of you in a while.

Agh trained man , you know how it is . Often getting quite disillusioned on here. Same old same old.

I mean why are we here . I mean the paracast . Why do we come on here? Is it entertainment , new insights , spout an opinion and gain something. I 'd like to think people come here because we are all cool people with different perspectives with new things to say and aren't taken in by mediocrity and challenge the status quo.

 

[nameless]

Because if 6o years of ufology and hundred years of parapsychology has taught us anything it's we ain't close to any real answers.

If all it's worth is data collection, then let's expand the limits of data. Qualitative as well as quantative.

 

[nameless]

We can throw out some models and create or accept new ones

 

[Wade]

You don't seriously believe that do you?

Isn't that the point of scientific enquiry?

we don't see things "as they are". Nor do we all see the same things. We can only observe things through the limitation of our senses. We can't see X-rays or dark matter or 90 % of the observable universe but we use our imagination to invent systems and devices to observe these things but still can only see data through the limitation of our senses. I'm not going to go into Hume and phenomenal variability.

If we are using our mind wether it's kooky religious explanations, occult science or general scientific endeavour , then the starting point is how do we explain our selves first and consciousness? and as far as the scientific community is concerned (quantum neuropsychology aside)it is yet to explain or make headway into explaining consciousness. If we are going to start talking about the stuff which is not in our material plain like the stuff in our heads then the best people at explaining consciousness and it's effects and the human condition is Art and Artists, writers, musicians Etc.. And if you want to be pedantic then application of the scientific method in art and the science and art of causing change to occur in conformity to will is the realm of occult tradition which even to the laymen cannot be generalised and put in the same lot as religious doctrine or mediums and witch doctors but the realms of Greco-roman mystery schools, Christian and Jewish cabalists and all those Indo/Asian mathematic cults. While people were waging wars and praying to gods, it was the secret schools which had to occult ideas such as mathematics and alchemical chemistry in the face of a fascist paradigm .

It is worth to bear in mind that the enemy here is a dogmatic belief and a rigid enforced paradigm. We have to be open to ideas but understand that those that have gone before have created maps to consciousness and have given us methodology to test ideas.
Unfortunately some people have a convoluted highly misplaced idea of what science is and what it can achieve, it isn't about truth or hard facts, facts themselves have a half life anyway , science just sets up a model of the world as a best guess and sees if the world matches it . Be more humble. Unfortunately this is seen as failing and an "in" on the part of religious creationist nut jobs and pseudo science quantum esp coast2coast types .


It seems in this thread like in all threads they degenerate into ego battles, blind contradiction and confused definitions based on the loaded expectations and personal interpretations people have on language. thus in part due to how we see the world through words. Some see religion as a made up twisted doctrine enforcing power control and masochism of catholic priests some may see it as the belief in something else a tool to get me through a dense fog a guiding light help and solace in the Dave if the unknowable . Is there a way or rules or tried and tested methods to interpret the words which construct reality? I leave that up to however you set your filters and how you learn to spell and load those words .


Ironically we all base our interpretation of this reality at present via language. When people start talking about religion and science I get scared and I see a battle between Darwinists and creationists. I know that this isn't the issue at present but it is real and present danger in our classrooms. If I keep this in mind then this may color my view and belief. Ironically it is a spiritual path which when properly adhered to allows for the introspection and checking of ones ego and prejudices .


Anyway the real talk about consciousness and the only science making any new discoveries that are exciting and important and at all relevant is neuroscience .

Great Post nameless, your feelings appear to be closer to mine. Although I have no great love for "organized religion" I do recognize that it....just like any other concept...can be used to either Persue an agenda or provide a answer or direction or both. I would Argue that even if there was no such thing as religion people would use psuedo science or even science itself to furthur their means, be it good or bad. It's the way of man and maybe alien, because if there is such thing as an alien race that is visiting us I wouldn't count on the fact that their advanced science doesn't mean that they wouldn't have a nefarious agenda.

It's funny that you mentioned nueroscience, maybe even a coincidence. because I recently contacted the ucla school of nueroscience to see if they need any guinea pigs. I want to find out about me if possible, if they take outside subjects. I don't know if the department would share their findings or just throw you a few dollars for your time, I'm not interested in the money, I want to find out what makes me tick, specifically my dopamine levels.

The one thing I would always go to bat for in the field of paranormal concepts is synchronicity. I've talked about it many times,when I was young I would always tell my mom I could predict the future because I would think of something and it would happen. Other things I have always "experienced" is what I can only refer to is an enhanced realization of time, vivid dreams that I can recall with ease and interact with and to a lesser degree, deja vu. As a kid from what I can remember I did experience a few paranormal experiences that people are family with ghosts, shadow people and such but that hasn't happened in decades. I bring this up because too much dopamine can bring on schizophrenia which is a condition that can bring on such experiences, I now wonder if I flirted with being a border line schizophrenic but something had reset, I know I had only then undiagnosed conditions I.e. adhd and such.

From what I understand the one thing that ties all this together Is a healthy supply of dopamine, and so I know need to know what my load is. I know there are simple tests for this but I need feedback not just numbers. I hope I can achieve this. The thing is, I still am open minded about many things and not at all threatened by the fact that all this "spookiness" I've experienced over the years may just come down to being constantly drugged. I'll even open myself up to maybe just maybe, like our ideas of dmt, maybe it's not so much being drugged as much as being more open or perceptive to such experiences. Either way, whatever the results I'm good with it. I hope I do have a surplus level of dopamine in my system and I hope it stays that way forever. Even if it takes me away from the paranormal field I'm ok with that because there is a history of both parkinsons and Alzheimer's in my recent family tree and a good supply of dopamine is what would hold that off.

 

[trainedobserver]

We can throw out some models and create or accept new ones

On a personal level, I have already tried the "spiritual model" and found its variations as I've described. It is a very old model of the universe that has more to do with the imagination and exploitation than investigation and exploration of hidden realms beyond the human keen or whatever.

 

[Randall]

It seems to me that consciousness must be in place before we can experience the paranormal ( or anything else for that matter ). Therefore in the set of things that we're discussing, first we have consciousness, and then we have the things it perceives, which has been divided into the classes of the normal and the paranormal. Now if we believe that both normal and paranormal phenomena are objective and external to our personal selves, then we're also assuming that they can exist on their own terms independently of our consciousness, which means that for all we know, they both existed prior to our consciousness entering the picture. If that is the case, then our whole perception of what is normal versus paranormal is skewed. It could just as easily be argued that prior to our consciousness entering the picture, there was no distinction between the normal and the paranormal, and that rather than being divided into groups, both constituted a unified set of all things in the universe. In this respect, the paranormal and the normal are nothing more than arbitrary sets of experiences created by the limitations of our consciousness to perceive them as a unified whole.

 

[Constance]

That's an interesting post that could present a new opening or starting point for discussion in this thread. It takes us into epistemology. Phenomenology has presented a turn in philosophy that has centered epistemological questions in what we can learn -- and the limits of what we can know -- in our embodied experience. It has shown us both a) the limits of our perception (i.e., that what we encounter are phenomena: the phenomenal appearances of things rather than the things in themselves) and b) the nature of our perception as developing from its ponderable primordial beginnings to the recognition of how perception necessarily develops within a context shaped by what we think we know. Many things that we as a species have thought we knew have been placed on the trash heap of rejected (because disproved) 'knowledge'; many others can be and will be as our species' history as "thinkers without final thoughts" continues as long as it continues; and many ideas might well have been placed on that trash heap presumptively, without actually being disproved. In the meantime, it seems to me, we traffic in hypotheses and theories about the nature of reality.

As for ourselves (how we should live, what we should do), phenomenological philosophers and others see implicit guidelines for behavior in what we can surmise from our own experience about our own nature and what, on that basis, we owe to others in general and inclusively.

 

[Constance]

Among other statements in ufology's post, I like this one:

Now if we believe that both normal and paranormal phenomena are objective and external to our personal selves, then we're also assuming that they can exist on their own terms independently of our consciousness, which means that for all we know, they both existed prior to our consciousness entering the picture.

I think the underlined portion of the statement might become clearer or more tractable if instead of saying 'objective and external to our personal selves' we were to substitute the phrase 'have a source outside consciousness/mind'. What do you think about that substitution, ufology?

 

[Burnt State]

Michael Allen posted this idea previously on the forum in another 8 mile thread discussion. We're so used to seeing things in simple binaries, so always wanting to be oppositional and aggressive instead of seeing spectrums and unified fields.

There's nothing 'para' about our reality but we've certainly trained everyone over history to think of seeing 'alternate' experiences as abnormal, unreal, something that's on the other side of the veil. And those who saw such things were 'touched' and labelled as a bit 'off'. We've held onto that narrative pretty tightly, scared that if we accept these things as part of a regular conscious experience reality will fall apart.

I wonder if we trained our society to be more accepting of altered experiences how we would see and think differently?

 

[Burnt State]

I mean why are we here . I mean the paracast . Why do we come on here? Is it entertainment , new insights , spout an opinion and gain something. I 'd like to think people come here because we are all cool people with different perspectives with new things to say and aren't taken in by mediocrity and challenge the status quo.

I'm here because I can indulge my brain with all manner of new ideas, contemplations of UFO lore and other screwy, uncertain & moral musings with a bunch of folk that are way smarter than me. Sometimes you can even get that cool brain tingly feeling of new ideas settling in, like you got in school when learning was fun.

 

[Tyger]

When I think of the word spiritual I think of this

dipsy Hippychick

warning above vid could cause a boner, handle with care.

Manxman wrote: "When I think of the word spiritual I think of this"

Since we are with Sarah Brightman, here is her exquisite rendering of Ennio Morricone's 'Nella Fantasia' -

"Love is for us [humanity] the most important fruit of human experience in the sensory world. If you penetrate the nature of love, or compassion, you will discover how the spiritual expresses its truth in the sensory world. I have already said that it is in the nature of the suprasensory to transform itself into something else. If the spiritual in physical human life transforms itself in such a way that the sense of self is muted, and then rises up as love, then the spiritual remains true to its own elemental laws. We can say that, with suprasensory consciousness, the human soul awakens in the spiritual world. But we must also say that, through love, the spirit awakens in the sensory world. Wherever love and compassion are active in life, we can perceive the magic breath of the spirit blowing through the sensory world."

I find the last sentence particularly elegant: "Wherever love and compassion are active in life, we can perceive the magic breath of the spirit blowing through the sensory world."


Moving to a point brought up by another poster that I wish to address generically: as long as we approach the task as one of finding 'authority', the reaction will be disillusionment and rebellion. We will be the eternal adolescent rebelling against the 'father' - pointing out the errors as well as lack of integrity. We are stuck in our adolescence. (Conversely, if our ego-pride is not muted, we will seek to be the authority - another pot-hole on the road).

Fact is the world is full of error - full of striving and consequently error. It is what it is.

We can learn from each other: [Ancient text]: "Do not fancy you can stand aside from the bad man or the foolish man. They are yourself, though in a less degree than your friend or your master. But if you allow the idea of separateness from any evil thing or person to grow up within you, by so doing you create Karma, which will bind you to that thing or person till your soul recognizes that it cannot be isolated. Remember that the sin and shame of the world are your sin and shame; for you are a part of it; your Karma is inextricably interwoven with the great Karma. And before you can attain knowledge you must have passed through all places, foul and clean alike. Therefore, remember that the soiled garment you shrink from touching may have been yours yesterday, may be yours tomorrow. And if you turn with horror from it, when it is flung upon your shoulders, it will cling the more closely to you. The self-righteous man makes for himself a bed of mire. Abstain because it is right to abstain — not that yourself shall be kept clean."

And: "All those beings among whom you struggle on are fragments of the Divine. And so deceptive is the illusion in which you live, that it is hard to guess where you will first detect the sweet voice in the hearts of others. But know that it is certainly within yourself. Look for it there, and once having heard it, you will more readily recognize it around you."

The language is elegant poetry but it is as exact and uncompromising as any scientific 'law' - more so, in fact. Lovelessness and lack of empathy and compassion is a denial of the spiritual world. What is being referenced here is not emotion, not sentimentality (though they are the beginnings on the continuum) - but feeling - of a definite kind, refinement. The terms employed in occult training - the path of knowledge - are quite precise - but they cannot be used precisely until substantial experience has been acquired and the concepts developed over time.

"Wherever love and compassion are active in life, we can perceive the magic breath of the spirit blowing through the sensory world."

 

[manxman]

damn you, i had gotten her, and dust in the wind out of my head.

now its echo'ing all around the house, and ive a boner you could hang a manx flag on..



she really was a looker 25 yrs ago, but she is ageing gracefully as the say, i loved the dipsy hippychick character she portrayed herself as, but she was quite smart really and quite ambitious, and she made it.

she has to be 45+ yrs old in this version.

 

[Tyger]

"If you want to find the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequency and vibration." - Nikola Tesla

 

[trainedobserver]

"If you want to find the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequency and vibration." - Nikola Tesla

Tesla certainly was not attributing any "spiritual" or pseudo-scientific meaning to those words, I can assure you.

 

[Tyger]

Tesla certainly was not attributing any "spiritual" or pseudo-scientific meaning to those words, I can assure you.

Do you see? It makes no sense to define any word. All the verbiage and explanations and yet still you will continue to use a word the way you originally did so. Square one. A tape-loop. Spinning wheels. It's not really a conversation.

We can throw out some models and create or accept new ones

Exactly so. I like this. It's all exploration, after. I play with ideas - some more than others. I find some tend to be very 'elegant' in the mathematical sense - a lot of loose ends get 'explained'. However, that said, one has to be willing to drop it all in an instant - there can be no sticky-fingers.

In my reading this evening - I was perusing a text on 'spiritual science' and came across this little gem: "Unlike natural science, spiritual science is not based upon sensory facts, hypotheses, and experiences. Rather, it is upon a profound and differentiated exploration of states of consciousness." The method, the path of consciousness, is universal and human, but the content is particular to an individual. An interesting idea, not so? Do I accept that? That's not what I am interested in - rather, I ask: "How must I move my attention in such a way that the text makes sense?" This goes for people. The 'text' is everywhere, not just in a book. It's the person who thinks they are a reincarnation of Cleopatra. How blithely we dismiss a 'nutcase' - some of the most amazing mysteries of existence are contained therein.

We get diverted by content - when it is the activity that is interesting and is of significance. What care I where a man walks but that he walks - state of consciousness, calibre of consciousness.

 

[Randall]

I was perusing a text on 'spiritual science' and came across this little gem: "Unlike natural science, spiritual science is not based upon sensory facts, hypotheses, and experiences. Rather, it is upon a profound and differentiated exploration of states of consciousness."

What exactly does that mean?