COVID-19 News

[Randall]

... sure a zoonotic origin hasn't been proven, but man it has very small genetic variations from ones we know have come from bats, and it may in fact have intermediate hosts (such as pangolins) in play.

Nature is complicated, but the math to me says that if it looks almost identical to a bat virus, it probably came from bats.

If you've been following the evidence, you'd know that the issue of whether or not bats are involved is completely beside the point. Also, the lab hypothesis doesn't require as many assumptions. Therefore when doing "the math", the lab hypothesis should come out on top. Given all the variables, the zoonotic hypothesis is nothing more than a technicality that provides the CCP with plausible deniability. And isn't that just perfect for them.

 

[Randall]

From information released early on I had the impression that the evidence of this virus in pangolins was solid, and also that it had been found elsewhere in Civet Cats.

Initially, I went with those same reports and was relieved it didn't come from a lab. You can probably even hear me say something to that effect on one of our shows early in the pandemic. I was also appalled to learn about wet markets. Now as more evidence has come to light, I really don't want the situation to be what it suggests, but I can't ignore the variables in favor of an argument just because I don't personally want it to be that way.

 

[marduk]

From information released early on I had the impression that the evidence of this virus in pangolins was solid, and also that it had been found elsewhere in Civet Cats.

I agree - one of the binding amino acids is only one gene off of the binding protein for a similar virus in pangolins, so an intermediate infection step may be involved.

 

[Randall]

I agree - one of the binding amino acids is only one gene off of the binding protein for a similar virus in pangolins, so an intermediate infection step may be involved.

There are a lot of animals with coronavirus. That being the case, all the coronaviruses will be very closely related. However to be transmissible to humans, the virus requires a specific protein that can bind to human receptors. No pangolin or any other animal has been found that has a coronavirus matching COV-SARS-2.

However ( and how many times does this need to be said before it sinks in ). The same virus SARS-COV-2 is believed to have mutated from that is found in the bats that are believed to be the most likely source, was under study at the Wuhan lab ( along with such bats ) and the purpose of those studies according to published scientific papers by the virologist working there, was transmissibility to humans, for which the key was found.

Now, we can make the long reach on assumptions about possibilities without the actual evidence, or go with known variables that match the needed criteria, including proximity to ground zero and the claims of a cover-up by the CCP which has since been proven true, all except for outright admission that the virus did come from the lab. So why believe that denial in the face of the rest of their lies?

There is really no contest here. A zoonotic route is possible, but only serves to provide the CCP with plausible deniability. Will we ever know with 100% certainty? I doubt it. In the meantime, I personally need better evidence in support of the zoonotic route before I'd believe it to be responsible. But if you guys want to trust the CCP on this, hey who am I to tell you who to vote for as most likely culprit

 

[marduk]

There are a lot of animals with coronavirus. That being the case, all the coronaviruses will be very closely related. However to be transmissible to humans, the virus requires a specific protein that can bind to human receptors. No pangolin or any other animal has been found that has a coronavirus matching COV-SARS-2.

However ( and how many times does this need to be said before it sinks in ). The same virus SARS-COV-2 is believed to have mutated from that is found in the bats that are believed to be the most likely source, was under study at the Wuhan lab ( along with such bats ) and the purpose of those studies according to published scientific papers by the virologist working there, was transmissibility to humans, for which the key was found.

Now, we can make the long reach on assumptions about possibilities without the actual evidence, or go with known variables that match the needed criteria, including proximity to ground zero and the claims of a cover-up by the CCP which has since been proven true, all except for outright admission that the virus did come from the lab. So why believe that denial in the face of the rest of their lies?

There is really no contest here. A zoonotic route is possible, but only serves to provide the CCP with plausible deniability. Will we ever know with 100% certainty? I doubt it. In the meantime, I personally need better evidence in support of the zoonotic route before I'd believe it to be responsible. But if you guys want to trust the CCP on this, hey who am I to tell you who to vote for as most likely culprit

Not trusting China with much, however math is math and governments mostly bungle, China included. That's my logic.

What do you think of the new mask requirement Randall?

 

[Randall]

Not trusting China with much, however math is math and governments mostly bungle, China included. That's my logic. What do you think of the new mask requirement Randall?

I have no problem using math to help in decision making. In fact, as stated in past posts, there is a more reasonable mathematical argument to made than those being used to propagate the wide scale fear, which in-turn is being used to justify the behavioral control, including fines. Start with the fact that the symptoms for COVID-19 are often so mild that 30% ( or thereabouts ) of those with it don't even know they have it.

The vast majority of the rest recover fine, and most of the small percentage with complications also recover. Those who don't recover are usually in high-risk groups with preexisting conditions, often in long-term care facilities, not wandering around in public. They are most probably going to die anyway from complications to their underlying condition, and if COVID-19 isn't the final straw, something else would be. That's just life.

Also when it comes to the math, the vast majority of the tens of millions of dollars in fines that have been collected have come from three other provinces. No wonder some bureaucrats here finally decided we better join the club. The City is rife with corruption and kickbacks. Do you really think it's sheer coincidence that the mask bylaw came into effect as soon as a supply of mask handouts paid for by taxpayers came along?

We're now living in an era of enforced germaphobia that has destroyed livelihoods, economies, rights, and our overall quality of life. At first the concern was justifiable because we didn't have enough information. Now we do. It's just not as bad as the all the fear mongering has made it out to be. Germs are everywhere. We've lived with them for millions of years, and this particular one just isn't so bad that it justifies such sweeping measures.

 

[Randall]

40% - 60% of us may already have natural
immune system defenses specific to COVID-19​

​

"When researchers tested blood samples taken years before the pandemic started, they found T cells which were specifically tailored to detect proteins on the surface of COVID-19. This suggests that some people already had a pre-existing degree of resistance against the virus before it ever infected a human. And it appears to be surprisingly prevalent: 40-60% of unexposed individuals had these cells."​

The people with hidden immunity against Covid-19

While the latest research suggests that antibodies against Covid-19 could be lost in just three months, a new hope has appeared on the horizon: the enigmatic T cell.

www.bbc.com

This might explain why around 40% of the people who are infected with COVID-19 don't even know they have it. It's also more evidence that the sweeping social control measures being taken to combat COVID-19 aren't necessary. COVID-19 has become a biopolitical tool for bureaucrats bent on using fear to restrict individual rights and freedoms. Sorry all you young people, but no dancing and no freedom of assembly to protest. See you all at The Underground.

 

[Constance]

40% - 60% of us may already have natural
immune system defenses specific to COVID-19​

​

"When researchers tested blood samples taken years before the pandemic started, they found T cells which were specifically tailored to detect proteins on the surface of COVID-19. This suggests that some people already had a pre-existing degree of resistance against the virus before it ever infected a human. And it appears to be surprisingly prevalent: 40-60% of unexposed individuals had these cells."​

The people with hidden immunity against Covid-19

While the latest research suggests that antibodies against Covid-19 could be lost in just three months, a new hope has appeared on the horizon: the enigmatic T cell.

www.bbc.com

This might explain why around 40% of the people who are infected with COVID-19 don't even know they have it. It's also more evidence that the sweeping social control measures being taken to combat COVID-19 aren't necessary. COVID-19 has become a biopolitical tool for bureaucrats bent on using fear to restrict individual rights and freedoms. Sorry all you young people, but no dancing and no freedom of assembly to protest. See you all at The Underground.

 

[Constance]

I'm unable to understand why these numbers seem to lead you to take the position that the 60 percent of humans potentially not immune to infection by Covid-19 should be left to sicken and die in large numbers, which will happen without their receiving extreme and costly medical intervention available only in some parts of the world. Many people are treated for months in intensive care units and survive but in highly compromised conditions physically, neurologically, and mentally. How can you personally justify writing them off? As well as all those risking and losing their lives to help save them? In the US, 126 nurses have died from coronavirus to date because of insufficient personal protection in the hospitals. And we are just one country that has been brought to its knees by this pandemic. It's a planetwide human problem that will not just disappear if it is ignored or minimized.

 

[Constance]

One more question: what kinds of freedom do you imagine we still have in America? See this:

DHS threatens Netflix filmmakers to keep damning footage from airing before the election: report

 

[Randall]

I'm unable to understand why these numbers seem to lead you to take the position that the 60 percent of humans potentially not immune to infection by Covid-19 should be left to sicken and die in large numbers ...

The numbers don't seem to lead me to take the position that the 60 percent of humans potentially not immune to infection by Covid-19 should be left to sicken and die in large numbers. Your assumptions led you to assume I take that position, when in fact I don't.

... which will happen without their receiving extreme and costly medical intervention available only in some parts of the world. Many people are treated for months in intensive care units and survive but in highly compromised conditions physically, neurologically, and mentally. How can you personally justify writing them off?

I don't personally write-off anyone. You would need to have read through my previous posts to fully understand my position, which is to actually save more lives along with more livelihoods and reduce suffering all at the same time. It's only the superficial numbers, fear, and biopolitics, that the average person has been inundated with that leads them to make the sorts of assumptions you are.

As well as all those risking and losing their lives to help save them? In the US, 126 nurses have died from coronavirus to date because of insufficient personal protection in the hospitals. And we are just one country that has been brought to its knees by this pandemic. It's a planetwide human problem that will not just disappear if it is ignored or minimized.

I'm not trying to trivialize the loss of anyone's loved ones, regardless of whether or not they're nurses or patients, but we don't know the full facts about the statistics on deaths. I've run across more than one article where COVID-19 was assigned as the cause simply because they had tested as positive when they died, but were already battling some other terminal illness and would have died of that or some other complication anyway.

Additionally, the main thrust of my previous points has been to reduce the unnecessary measures and redirect those resources to those in high-risk situations, including front-line workers. I never have suggested and would never suggest that those in high-risk situations should be abandoned or have their support reduced. My position is exactly the opposite.

Virtually everyone else will survive the disease, many without even knowing they ever had it in the first place. So focusing resources on them, including law enforcement and shutting down their livelihoods isn't going to save lives. It's going to cost them. There are days when I get really tired of people assuming that because I hold a different view than they do, and instead choose to think for myself, that I am some sort of a bad person.

 

[Constance]

The numbers don't seem to lead me to take the position that the 60 percent of humans potentially not immune to infection by Covid-19 should be left to sicken and die in large numbers. Your assumptions led you to assume I take that position, when in fact I don't.

I don't personally write-off anyone. You would need to have read through my previous posts to fully understand my position, which is to actually save more lives along with more livelihoods and reduce suffering all at the same time. It's only the superficial numbers, fear, and biopolitics, that the average person has been inundated with that leads them to make the sorts of assumptions you are.

I'm not trying to trivialize the loss of anyone's loved ones, regardless of whether or not they're nurses or patients, but we don't know the full facts about the statistics on deaths. I've run across more than one article where COVID-19 was assigned as the cause simply because they had tested as positive when they died, but were already battling some other terminal illness and would have died of that or some other complication anyway.

Additionally, the main thrust of my previous points has been to reduce the unnecessary measures and redirect those resources to those in high-risk situations, including front-line workers. I never have suggested and would never suggest that those in high-risk situations should be abandoned or have their support reduced. My position is exactly the opposite.

Virtually everyone else will survive the disease, many without even knowing they ever had it in the first place. So focusing resources on them, including law enforcement and shutting down their livelihoods isn't going to save lives. It's going to cost them. There are days when I get really tired of people assuming that because I hold a different view than they do, and instead choose to think for myself, that I am some sort of a bad person.

". . .There are days when I get really tired of people assuming that because I hold a different view than they do, and instead choose to think for myself, that I am some sort of a bad person."

Apologies if I've misinterpreted you. I don't think you're a 'bad person'. I just come toward the earthworld and our shared fate here from a different perspective. For example, it makes no difference to me if some persons dying in intensive care units after months of suffering and struggle to survive Covid-19 would have died eventually anyway of a terminal illness or a weak heart or whatever. Many dying of Covid currently, after the insane rush to reopen for business 6-8 weeks ago, are in their late teens and twenties. Babies and young children have died of it. School age children have died of it, and more will if schools are forced to reopen in a month. I don't think anyone is expendable. And, to be sure, we're all going to die of one illness or another sometimer. In the meantime, our commitment must be to preserve as many peoples' health and well-being as we possibly can, on this continent and elsewhere. This virus is a scourge and requires a worldwide effort to overcome it. And life as 'normally lived' in the US hasn't been that great to begin with in the last century, or did you think it was? We have to let go of the hope that we can quickly resume what was in this country and get to work rebuilding its foundations out of the crash and depression to come, which should teach us all a lesson we should have learned long ago. Well, that's what I think, and you might not see it my way. Peace.

 

[Randall]

". . .There are days when I get really tired of people assuming that because I hold a different view than they do, and instead choose to think for myself, that I am some sort of a bad person."

Apologies if I've misinterpreted you. I don't think you're a 'bad person'. I just come toward the earthworld and our shared fate here from a different perspective. For example, it makes no difference to me if some persons dying in intensive care units after months of suffering and struggle to survive Covid-19 would have died eventually anyway of a terminal illness or a weak heart or whatever.

I'm going to be careful here how interpret your phrase, "it makes no difference to me if ..." because I know that you probably would care if you were the one deciding how to manage the situation. That's because the people you mention above are in a high-risk category and need special attention. Therefore I'm sure you'd agree that resources that are now going where they're essentially useless would be better spent helping them. Right?

Many dying of Covid currently, after the insane rush to reopen for business 6-8 weeks ago, are in their late teens and twenties. Babies and young children have died of it. School age children have died of it, and more will if schools are forced to reopen in a month. I don't think anyone is expendable.

It's not a matter of who is or isn't expendable. It's a matter of the most effective management given the resources available. A person of any age can be in a high risk group, and the relatively few outliers you allude to are obviously in one of them, or they wouldn't have died.

So again, perhaps if those managing the problem had given more attention to them in the first place, and not shut down the economy, there would be less dead of COVID-19 and there would be no mass economic collapse. The solution doesn't have to between one or the other. Take the fear out of the equation and make sure those who need the help get it while the rest of the nation works to keep the train on the tracks.

And, to be sure, we're all going to die of one illness or another sometimer. In the meantime, our commitment must be to preserve as many peoples' health and well-being as we possibly can, on this continent and elsewhere.

You're making my point for me.

This virus is a scourge and requires a worldwide effort to overcome it. And life as 'normally lived' in the US hasn't been that great to begin with in the last century, or did you think it was?

There's no question that humanity's track record in general has a lot of rough patches. However a lot of really amazing and positive things have happened too. It's all in your perspective.

We have to let go of the hope that we can quickly resume what was in this country and get to work rebuilding its foundations out of the crash and depression to come, which should teach us all a lesson we should have learned long ago. Well, that's what I think, and you might not see it my way. Peace.

Why should we have to let go of hope? Why shouldn't we want better solutions than an economic crash, substandard healthcare, and a loss of rights and freedoms? Shutting down the economy and wasting resources on bad decisions isn't going to make that happen. Our hope should not be crushed and quality healthcare should be a right along with our other rights and freedoms. This whole thing needs a major attitude shift.

 

[Constance]

I'm going to be careful here how interpret your phrase, "it makes no difference to me if ..." because I know that you probably would care if you were the one deciding how to manage the situation. That's because the people you mention above are in a high-risk category and need special attention. Therefore I'm sure you'd agree that resources that are now going where they're essentially useless would be better spent helping them. Right?

It's not a matter of who is or isn't expendable. It's a matter of the most effective management given the resources available. A person of any age can be in a high risk group, and the relatively few outliers you allude to are obviously in one of them, or they wouldn't have died.

So again, perhaps if those managing the problem had given more attention to them in the first place, and not shut down the economy, there would be less dead of COVID-19 and there would be no mass economic collapse. The solution doesn't have to between one or the other. Take the fear out of the equation and make sure those who need the help get it while the rest of the nation works to keep the train on the tracks.

You're making my point for me.

There's no question that humanity's track record in general has a lot of rough patches. However a lot of really amazing and positive things have happened too. It's all in your perspective.

Why should we have to let go of hope? Why shouldn't we want better solutions than an economic crash, substandard healthcare, and a loss of rights and freedoms? Shutting down the economy and wasting resources on bad decisions isn't going to make that happen. Our hope should not be crushed and quality healthcare should be a right along with our other rights and freedoms. This whole thing needs a major attitude shift.

"This whole thing needs a major attitude shift."

Where and by whom? It seems to me that you must have approved the attitude decreed and enforced by Donald Trump from the outset of this pandemic, and his administration's failure to read, much less implement, the preparations for a pandemic outlined in the 69-page document presented to Trump by Obama during the transition, and the Trump administration's pouring massive economic support to corporations and large businesses at the expense of support for public health, and of course his insistence that this country ignore the use of masks distancing and reopen for business nearly two months ago. The results are obvious in the Covid-19 crisis now overwhelming American hospitals again, forcing hospitals to send critically ill patients home to die for lack of facilities and medical personnel to care for them.

Contemplating this and all the other human outrages committed and ordered by Trump in these four dreadful years calls to mind for me several immortal lines by Shakespeare:

Th' expense of spirit in a waste of shame (Sonnet 129)
William Shakespeare - 1564-1616

"Th' expense of spirit in a waste of shame
Is lust in action; and till action, lust
Is perjured, murderous, bloody, full of blame,
Savage, extreme, rude, cruel, not to trust;
Enjoyed no sooner but despisèd straight:
Past reason hunted; and no sooner had,
Past reason hated, as a swallowed bait,
On purpose laid to make the taker mad:
Mad in pursuit, and in possession so;
Had, having, and in quest to have, extreme;
A bliss in proof, and proved, a very woe;
Before, a joy proposed; behind, a dream.
All this the world well knows; yet none knows well
To shun the heaven that leads men to this hell."


It is, of course, counterintuitive to apply the term 'spirit' to Donald Trump, who has never been able to comprehend what Shakespeare and other thinkers, poets, and statesmen have meant by spirit as that human capacity by which most of us are able to transcend our petty self-interest in a common effort to form and maintain decent, just, and ethically enlightened societies. Lacking enlightened spirit and the ability to care, Trump has only ever been able to feed his ego and heartlessly increase his personal power at the expense of others. He is as much a scourge on this planet as the virus is. Let us all hope that he is defeated in the November election so that this beleaguered country can recreate itself.

 

[Randall]

"This whole thing needs a major attitude shift."

Where and by whom? It seems to me that you must have approved the attitude decreed and enforced by Donald Trump from the outset of this pandemic ...

It's no secret here that I'm not a Trump fan. As for assigning blame at the outset of the pandemic, it's also no secret that the primary responsibility belongs with the authorities in China. If not for their bungling ( intentional or otherwise ) COVID-19 wouldn't have become a pandemic in the first place.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

But if Trump acted properly tens of thousands of innocent Americans would still be alive.

 

[Randall]

But if Trump acted properly tens of thousands of innocent Americans would still be alive.

Blaming Trump is like the passengers in a car blaming the driver for an accident caused by someone else who intentionally ran a red light. Yes, no matter what, there's a certain responsibility all drivers have for their passengers, and there probably are better drivers than Trump, but a lot of the attacks I've seen aren't reasonable. They're highly subjective, based mostly on armchair quarterbacking, political bias, or just an outright dislike for Trump. All the focus on Trump blaming is diverting attention away from where the final responsibility lies, which is with the authorities in China.

Different Takes: Pros, Cons Of Trump Administration's Response To Coronavirus; Why Isn't Everyone Who's Employed Allowed To Take A Paid Sick Day? - KFF Health News

Editorial pages focus on issues surrounding the spread of coronavirus.

khn.org

 

[Gene Steinberg]

You have to assume that the Chinese authorities were able to control the spread, which is not proven.

Yes, Trump bears responsibility because he fiddled while America burned with the virus. He still claims it'll one day just disappear as an excuse for the ongoing inability to test efficiently. Had he acted properly and stopped ignoring reality and lying, tens of thousands of people would still be alive.

 

[Randall]

You have to assume that the Chinese authorities were able to control the spread, which is not proven.

That all depends on how you define "proof". If you go with the idea that proof is evidence sufficient to justify belief in a claim, then there's evidence that the CCP not only knew about the disease prior to allowing 5 million people out of Wuhan, including many on international flights, but also covered up what they knew.

Whether you believe that evidence or not is up to you, but so far, I see no reason to doubt its veracity. As you know, the CCP is essentially a communist police state and they can shut down everything on a moments notice without having to go through layers of bureaucracy. So I would have to say that the Chinese authorities were not only capable of controlling the spread, they deliberately facilitated it.

Yes, Trump bears responsibility because he fiddled while America burned with the virus. He still claims it'll one day just disappear as an excuse for the ongoing inability to test efficiently. Had he acted properly and stopped ignoring reality and lying, tens of thousands of people would still be alive.

Where's your "proof" for that claim? We've been through it all already and it amounts to a combination of circumstances beyond the President's control, no matter who had been elected, combined with subjective opinion, political bias, and a plain dislike for Trump. People other than yourself think he's done as well or better than could be expected.

Me personally? I don't know because I don't have all the facts. His stupid offhanded comments aside, some info is still classified, so we don't know for sure how many facts Trump had to base his decisions on. His downplaying of the situation rather than panicking the whole nation before the facts were known isn't technically lying. It seems however the responsible thing to do at the time.

In addition, it's not the place for the President to order such sweeping changes in a free nation unless the situation is proven to be dire, and he had no proof it was dire because there was insufficient information. COVID-19 was still an unknown variable, and Trump had no crystal ball to see into the future. Nevertheless large companies like airlines were already taking measures without a Presidential order. That is as it should have been.

We also know that Trump was depending on info from the WHO, which was found to be faulty. Is that his fault? No. Because a lot of that info came from China. Yes US intelligence had some idea that something was going on, but so far as we know, they didn't know the exact nature of the outbreak, and even if they did, we don't know what intelligence factors were in play that could be used publicly.

Individual responsibility also plays a role. The president didn't go around spreading the disease. People did, and many of them were going to do whatever they were going to do regardless of what Trump or any other President in office told them. I don't like Trump any more than you do on a personal level, but maybe because I don't live in the USA, I have a more detached perspective.

The bottom line is that neither you nor I have some sort of time machine that can go back, install some other President, and allow us to compare the situations exactly 1 for 1. All we can do is speculate. For all we know some other President might have had a heart attack, said other stupid things we don't expect, and made other bad decisions we assume they'd never make. We don't know. You might be right. But would you really want to be?

Anyway, today was the 100 day mark to your next election, so hopefully you will end-up with someone less divisive in office. In the meantime, up here, we're hearing reports of continued looting down there under the banner of "protests" and the ordering of police crackdowns in response. We're doing fairly well ourselves, but the enforced germaphobia and police crackdowns are getting worse instead of better ( but minor by comparison - see below ).

 

[Randall]

Enforced Germaphobia and Racism Collide on the Basketball Court

"Nine Black youths were given hefty fines recently for allegedly violating public-health rules while playing basketball in a Repentigny, Que., park, even though white teenagers playing later on the same court went unpunished by police."​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/hefty-fines-for-black-teens-playing-basketball-prompt-questions-about-racism-in-montreal-suburb-1.5663617