Crystal Skulls - May 3oth 2011

[Angel of Ioren]

Other than a coincidence fortified by your knowledge of the song and exposure to the stations schedule I wonder if some deja-vu-like brain delay effect could possibly play into it. Oddly enough I'm reading about talking about such things, I'll have to see if he mentions a term for it later.

But really now, I think taking it as evidence of strange psychic abilities brought about by your abduction experiences (which you could take as a simultaneous confirmation of your alien abductions) would make the better story. I'm sure an implant of some sort is involved as well that will have to be removed by some terribly painful and embarrassing means.

I do not want to comment on my alien implants.

 

[tyder001]

One reason a "experiment" would not covince anybody is played out everyday. People such as Sheldrake and Echols and Rhine and many others have given statisitcal evidence many times and over many, many years. Yet, other folks look at it and scoff and run their own "bias" experiments and come up with conflicting data or say "well ya didn't hit everyone so that means it don't work." I don't consider "dreams" to be a window on the future in a Slyvia Browne soothsayer manner. I can assure you my dreams do indeed all have meaning. However, many times a more Frudiean explanaton fits many of them. My point has always simply been this. I was told (not by anybody on this board) long ago that there was ABSOLUTELY NO WAY, NOT EVEN ONCE for a closed system such as the brain to predict an event that hasn't even happened yet. So, for me after that statement by a so called "mainstream" loving science fan I had to conclude that it meant there was no way to predict the future. Now, I had a dream and I knew "symbolically" what it meant. Still, that was proof only to me (see bias in previous discussion) So, that didn't really (well it did to me but not to the skeptic) discount the closed biological chemical system. However, later I had a dream and the events were not symbolic at all. Every last event actually happened and it concerned a car accident and no I was not driving either car. It happened to the letter. So, that told me that at least the dogmatic statement that I had previoulsy been hammered with was false. That's the problem with fundies. Be they religious or materilaist. It only takes "one" opposite truth to give the lie to the whole damn thing. So, that is where I part ways with the folks who think it's only a brain fart. According to the one brain, one experience folks I could not by any stretch of reality have had the experiences that I've had.

Finally, the other problem with stats and experiments and convincing folks with numbers. Now, I got in trouble with the Darwain police the last time I said something like I am about to say. So, let me hasten to add right away that I do "believe" in the evolution of life on planet earth. So, back away from the damn axe and put the hood away. But, the truth is it can't be "proven" in the strictist sense of the word. I have seen enough and learned enough in school to take it as a matter of faith and the best explanation so far for the life and diversity we see on planet earth. But, I have read and heard people with lots of letters after their names (sorry but in my profession lots of letters after your name is good Anyway, many of these folks find fault with the theory of evolution even to the point of wanting to jettison the whole thing and start over. Now, many of them have a religous bias and I admit that. But, not all of them do. Point is even if you and I accept it you could never convince them of it and win a millin dollar challenge from them any more than anybody will ever win the Randi challenge. Bias is always a two way street.

 

[trainedobserver]

One reason a "experiment" would not covince anybody is played out everyday.

You asked "How can you measure that?" I gave you a perfectly reasonable way of doing so. I wasn't addressing anything other than the fact that you can, with a little work, measure to some extent your hit ratio. It will certainly give you a better indication of whether you have the abilities you suspect than doing nothing would. It would certainly be more meaningful and interesting to be able to say you have made some effort to understand what is actually happening when you tell the story at any rate. I think your readiness to disregard any systematic effort to understand your experiences or experiences of this sort as puzzling and self-defeating. Critical thinking is vital to gaining any sort of reliable world-view. Without reasonable standards of evidence any belief is possible.

 

[tyder001]

I don't claim any special "abilities." So, I don't know how to do a "test" and to be honest I consider myself much more of a critical thinker than somebody who has already decided that they have found the right "way" or truth. I wouldn't mind going to some kind of lab and working with a scientist or researcher. But, other than that I do my own critical thinking everyday and can't honestly convey my whole world view or thoughts about life to you on a internet forum. Still, it's a fun way to discuss things. Maybe I'm lazy but I'm just not honestly interested in what you have put out there so far. Of course I'm also in the middle of a work day so I'm a little pulled right now. I'm taking some time to unwind during breaks and between "tasks" so that may have something to do with it.
Peace.
Steve.

 

[J.T.]

I'm lazy and can't read every single post so if I'm repeating the obvious, please ignore me.

I have one reason the test might not work. Person may place his or her beliefs/feelings/experience onto an object. That something resonates for you may have nothing to do with the intrinsic properties of that object, but what you project into it. A lot of people assume that a crystal ball might have magical properties, but if you read into the literature a bit you'll find that it doesn't matter whether it's a crystal, a piece of aluminum can, or a puddle of muddy water if it helps you to focus/project your 'senses.'

I also know that if I were placed into a situation like said test, I'd be in a state of nervousness/fear/anticipation/lack of focus that would not be a 'normal' or a 'receptive' state of mind. And no, I have no faculties that would resonate, vibrate or otherwise cause tremors of the extrasensory kind in the presence of a crystal skull or a skeleton. If one picked up and started walking towards me, my teeth might chatter a bit tho'.

None of this is meant to say a test is not a good idea, but there are reasons why this kind of a test might not give results that are reliable.

And yes, I haven't made it past the first 15 minutes myself, but I'll give it another try. I really can't stand people who leave no room for doubt or inquiry.

 

[tyder001]

I want to give a shout out and a thank you to Trained Observer. We have had some pretty good PM exchanges and he has never betrayed them (nor have I his) by airing them in public. That's why it's called a Private Message. Otherwise, Lance I have to say that I sometime agree and sometime strongly disagree with you. But, you have let (imo) personal bias get in the way of civility. But, you have not been uncivil to me so I'll hush now. I don't personally believe in crystal skulls or ufo's or bigfoot. But, I do believe in certain other things that some folks would and do find redicoulus Like bad spillin. Muh spillin is rediculous. Anyway, why even worry about it? After all if all we are is brain farts and chemicals then in the end I'm sure Natural Selection will weed all of us sky god ufo bigfoot mystical ghost hunting nuts out.

 

[J.T.]

If someone can sense "energy" emanating from an object there is no need to go into trapped feelings etc and other imprecise claptrap.

Aren't most humans imprecise in most imaginable ways? Nothing I do, even when I should know exactly what to do, is all that precise. If emotions are involved, things really go screwy. Precision is a function of machines, and even that isn't guaranteed.

Just bring the hidden magical object or a non-magical object (randomly determined) before the person at timed intervals and allow them to say if they are feeling the "energy" or not. If this can be done successfully beyond the expectation of chance, it would be the best paranormal experiment of all time. This would not be inconclusive as some people unwisely imply.

Unless, as I just said, the object's 'magical' properties are projected on it by the person. And sorry, but I doubt that would be the 'best paranormal experiment of all time.'

Many of the other suggestions here show a lack of knowledge of the history of psychical research. Nothing like this test has ever been done (successfully and replicable).

I don't mean to be obnoxious, but a couple of recent examples which would better qualify as a 'best paranormal experiment of all time,' than this, without my doing any actual digging:

Articles and Papers - Scientific Papers - The Sense of Being Stared At - Follow-Up: Research

Bem, D. J. (2011). Feeling the Future: Experimental evidence for anomalous retroactive influences on cognition and affect. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 100, 407-425.

 

[J.T.]

Lance,

I do understand your point, and it would be very convenient if things were that black and white. But I don't think they are, and, as a result, there are no easy answers. Which is my point. I think it's worthwhile to allow for there to be more to the universe than can be explained easily by a simple clear cut binary test. We're only human, and as such hardly reliable. And what I said about the reliability issues for that particular test stands.

 

[apostlesean]

I point out that reincarnation was a concept accepted by Christianity in it's early days, and later "discarded" from it's teachings

Just to point out a common factual error, the idea that Christianity taught reincarnation comes from the writings of Origen. Origen actually argued the pre-existence of the soul, which is not the same as reincarnation. His argument was that all souls were created by God at the beginning of the world and then are inserted into a body at the time of conception then are judged for heaven/hell after the body dies. He actually argued pretty strongly against reincarnation (see his Commentary on John for more on this).

Back to Crystal Skull Guy, I really liked how the hosts handled him. I've heard him before on other shows and have been confounded that no one ever took him to task over proving his claims.

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

Christopher has told me via PM that he will not be participating since he thinks I don't respect his years of work, etc. While not entirely true, I see his point.

Since you violated my privacy with your self-serving summation of my comments, I'll provide others with my exact response and remind you that I will not engage with you on this forum for any reason from here on out. Here is what I thought was my private response to your request to respond to this thread.

"What possible reason could I have to ever again engage with you on any subject on the forum? I'm not a masochist and have no fighting dogs to goad. Obviously, you have zero respect for my years of hard work and you disdain my opinions on anything and everything we cover on the show and in the forum. It doesn't matter what I say, you will ultimately use it to bait, insult and belittle me."

Don't bother to ask me to engage in your ridiculous game-playing and your vendetta against what this show is trying to accomplish.

 

[trainedobserver]

I don't want to belabor the point but I do want to mention that IF the claims made by psi practitioners were true then things could be black and white for proof.

Another way to look at this is if PSI was viable there would be a real PSI industry translating it into capital and not one dominating by con-artists and faux-gypsies. When things work, business is made utilizing whatever it is, it does not matter. It can be the deadliest thing or the most benign thing.. If it works, it will be used to generate wealth. Something as incredibly powerful and useful as PSI would permeate any human enterprise of significance if it exists as some think. Industry and governments would employ remote viewing, mind reading, and so forth and actually produce actionable results. There would be a counter-PSI industry and a protest movement to haggle both. None of that actually exists though. The "proof" is in the pudding or in this case the absence of pudding.

 

[mike]

I put the chances of that at somewhere around slim and none. A crystal skull is a totem, a talisman, an idol, a fetish, but to superimpose some technological characteristic on them is to ignore the obvious.

I see a parallel between crop circles and crystal skulls. They are man-made art works around which incredible belief systems have evolved due to their anonymous and therefore mysterious nature. Pseudo-scientific researchers and superstitious fans feed off the work of largely anonymous artists. The religious analogies apply equally as well to the crystal skull community as it does to the crop circle community with the crystal skull side of things, at least as represented by Joshua, boarding on an actual religion.

I agree, and its an IF, a big IF at that ,that if "aliens" or some other advanced species made these objects, then its not beyond the realms of possibility they also contain information.
I dont personally consider it likely, but neither is it impossible.

---------- Post added at 11:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:59 AM ----------

@Christopher,

Obviously you aren't used to having your claims challenged. Some folks may see such challenges as a healthy response to extraordinary claims.

In all cases, I have tried to attack the claims you have made (or the claims of other folks you support), not you personally. If you feel that I attacked you personally because of some vendetta, I have to refer you to any of the discussions that I had on this forum long prior to your arrival. I have always been a skeptic and treated paranormal matters skeptically.

I am aware of the expansive knowledge you possess of matters of the paranormal and find that admirable. I honestly think you are doing a good job in your role as co-host and that you are getting better.

I offer my apologies if you feel that I violated some privacy matter by mentioning your response to my request. I do not see how the basic information I summarized violated anything.

So I write this in hopes of clearing the air and moving on. And I apologize for any personal attacks you feel I that I may have made.

Thanks,

Lance

Lance,
Thats really poor form matey. its well known across the datanets, that whats said in PM stays in PM. Many forums have a ban rule attached to such breaches.
Its also a personal footbullet, many people knowing you will breach netiquette thus, will simply refuse to answer your Private Messages, knowing the word Private is not so Private.
If you want to post anything said to you in PM, you need to get permission via PM first.
As i said many forums have a ban rule for such netiquette breaches, something to keep in mind

 

[Ron Collins]

About the show. I just listened to it and I cant help but feel that Gene and Chris didn't realize what they were getting into with this guy. I think he left the possibility of having critical thinking about a subject matter in the dust long ago. It just seemed to me that they were not expecting the new agey junk. Oh, and are these the same Palladians that Colleen Thomas has been warning us about???

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

@Christopher,

Obviously you aren't used to having your claims challenged. Some folks may see such challenges as a healthy response to extraordinary claims.

In all cases, I have tried to attack the claims you have made (or the claims of other folks you support), not you personally. If you feel that I attacked you personally because of some vendetta, I have to refer you to any of the discussions that I had on this forum long prior to your arrival. I have always been a skeptic and treated paranormal matters skeptically.

I am aware of the expansive knowledge you possess of matters of the paranormal and find that admirable. I honestly think you are doing a good job in your role as co-host and that you are getting better.

I offer my apologies if you feel that I violated some privacy matter by mentioning your response to my request. I do not see how the basic information I summarized violated anything.

So I write this in hopes of clearing the air and moving on. And I apologize for any personal attacks you feel I that I may have made.

Thanks,

Lance

Lance & Angelo ,
Poor taste

 

[The Pair of Cats]

Lance,
Thats really poor form matey. its well known across the datanets, that whats said in PM stays in PM. Many forums have a ban rule attached to such breaches.
Its also a personal footbullet, many people knowing you will breach netiquette thus, will simply refuse to answer your Private Messages, knowing the word Private is not so Private.
If you want to post anything said to you in PM, you need to get permission via PM first.
As i said many forums have a ban rule for such netiquette breaches, something to keep in mind

Well said Mike. What is said via PM should stay in PM.

Also @Lance.

Mate, why are you are so keen to have every single little claim verified via some sort of scientific testing or protocol? Let it go! We all know your opinion on theses sorts of claims and i don't think that there is anybody on the forums who would deny you your right to having them. If Chris made a statement regarding how he feels energies from skulls, so what? You either believe him or not in the end. Move on.
I have felt energies from objects myself, (psychometry). I used it in my Tarot work. You can believe that what i was doing was claptrap if you like, i don't mind. But I would not subject myself to a battery of tests on your behest just to satisfy any need of yours for confirmation of your own personal bias just as much as Christopher has refused.
Others such as Trained and Angelo also disagree, although i appologise to Rick if i have lumped him into the position of non believer of these things. I think Rick would just like to know more about these subjects before taking any firm position on them. Forgive me if i'm wrong there Rick
Angelo has decided that science and the scientific method have the best explanations of these weird and wonderful events much like yourself in a way just without the need to demand testing of every claim.
Anyway if Christopher had agreed to your test, saying he could feel energies, and your testing could not find any evidence of said energies or proof of any kind. What then? Do you call Christopher a liar? He may well feel certain energies. Maybe the testing protocols are all wrong for the experiment. Do we call you incompetent? In the end what would your testing prove and who would it prove it to? No-ones position either side of the fence will change much i reckon.

 

[The Pair of Cats]

Maybe it can be tested or maybe it can't. i don't know for sure. What i am saying though is even if you test someone for their claims how would you know for sure that the protocols were correct? Do we even know what these energies are?
If you believe that a certain psychic or psychics are duping people out of their money then by all means expose them or have their claims verified, absolutely.
As for working with you, that depends on what your biases are towards then phenomena you wish to test. And i realise it is hard not to be biased at times. Overall it would probably work out all right.
Re: Christopher. i think he probably made the remark as an innocent aside. (I hope to listen to the show this afternoon). He may well feel energies. The fact that he said that doesn't warrant a call for testing of his claim, i don't think. I don't believe he is making a career out of this claim. He is not taking money or duping people out of their hard earned from this claim.
It would be like you saying as an aside "I'm a great cook!" Does that mean i organise a master chef to come over to your place to examine your culinary skills and to ultimately declare via podcast or blog that "Lance Moody's claims to being a great cook are FALSE!!!!"?
Maybe i could just take your word for it and hope that you haven't poisoned anyone yet

 

[trainedobserver]

Again it may boil down to your opinion of the person. It is the right of every person to believe or disbelieve any claim made by another whether there is proof for them or not.

Of course everyone is free to fall prey to known logical fallacies but why would they want to? It makes no sense to me to employ thinking that has been proven to produce erroneous results. An appeal to authority is one such logical fallacy. Believing or disbelieving shouldn't be based on who said what. You can believe someone is telling you the absolute truth as they know it and still examine the thinking that got them to their conclusions. It's the most interesting part anyway.

I appreciate your comments about my intentions. I do simply want to understand things as they are. I honestly do think though that a proper understanding of science and the application thereof is the best way to understand the universe. I know people experience weird and extraordinary things. I've experienced them. I think everyone does at some time or another. I've just had to reject a lot of modes of thinking and change my standards of evidence. My main argument has always been that things are not what they seem. I've come to think that due to the way we are made to perceive the universe that the only real answers come from a better understanding of ourselves.

I'm really concerned about how I reach the conclusions that I do, as we all do. That's what I'm trying to communicate. I believe that how we think about things and the language that we use to describe them deserves a great deal of scrutiny. Doubt is good.

 

[The Pair of Cats]

I am NOT a great cook (except passable omelets).

I am still not following you on the reasons you think psi claims should not be tested.

Using the same logic, nothing should be done in science. You might get the protocols wrong.

That is the beauty of science--the claim must be replicated and gain acceptance. It lives or dies on its own merits.

The opposite has occurred with psi. Testing essentially proved that there is nothing (usable) to the idea. I mentioned the thing with Chris because it struck me as easily testable. I am not suggesting he is a charlatan (don't get me into worse trouble!). I am simply saying that I am virtually sure that he is mistaken about energy.

The objects are quite beautiful and cause an emotional reaction (even in a bastard like me). If that is all Chris was saying (and that is not what it sounded like) then I don't disagree with that.

It is a sad fact that the famous skulls are almost certainly not ancient, not Mayan, and, I might add, probably not magic.

Lance

Yes if the protocols are wrong, change the protocols. How would you know what the protocols should be in regards to things such as "energies" "vibrations" etc? It could take months even years to get it right. And in Chris' case what would it achieve?
I am not saying that psi claims should not be tested. You seemed to have answered your own question here. Christopher made an off the cuff remark (i think). I don't see it necessary to go bounding off and call for full blown or even some testing of his claim. What is there to gain from it? His claim isn't trying to prove the existence of anything except his opinion.
By all means go and test the people who are trying to change the minds of the non believers, sceptics or debunkers. But i am sure Christopher, myself and others, whose opinions vary and differ than yours, aren't trying to change anybodies mind here. We are just stating an opinion thats all. Nothing sinister. I don't think all opinions need to be so heavily scrutinized.

 

[bitfiend]

I am the owner of a crystal skull and I can definitely feel the "energy" that comes from it. Hell, I can even smell it. I haven't talked to it yet, but maybe I just haven't had enough of its energy in one sitting yet.

I'd be happy to participate in an experiment to prove my claims, but it'll have to be done fairly quickly. It's already half empty and these things are expensive for the amount and quality of energy they contain. It's pretty good mixed with grapefruit juice, though.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

I am the owner of a crystal skull and I can definitely feel the "energy" that comes from it. Hell, I can even smell it. I haven't talked to it yet, but maybe I just haven't had enough of its energy in one sitting yet.

I'd be happy to participate in an experiment to prove my claims, but it'll have to be done fairly quickly. It's already half empty and these things are expensive for the amount and quality of energy they contain. It's pretty good mixed with grapefruit juice, though.

That was funny. It took me a few seconds to realize you were talking about vodka.

Lance & Angelo ,
Poor taste

Lance apologized, and if Chris feels as though his trust was broken, he has every right to. Not sure what I did in poor taste. I was "thanking" Lance for apologizing.