Dave Jacobs, George Knapp &.....what obligations

[Jeff Crowell]

Yeah, I'm going to chime in but on an aspect of this that's more wide-ranging and something that was addressed in the original post, and that's how we treat people in the field of paranormal research. Some would argue that our clients (regardless of the paranormal discipline; ghost hunting, UFO research, psychic studies), are already unstable. I wouldn't go that far but at the very least all of them already have pre-conceived believes about what they have experienced. Screwing around and being irresponsible regarding those believes is dangerous to say the least. When dealing with clients or experiencers it's important to remember that, indeed, those people may be unstable or at least on-edge. Common courtesy and some political exchange to put them at ease works wonders.

Failing to do so by taking a devil-may-care attitude gets you in the situation that Jacob's is in, and maybe worse. Screwing around and claiming to be a "professional" anything carries the danger of legal responsibility for the person who's under your "care". Some other examples include times when a ghost hunting group (less scrupulous than my own, I may add) stamped a local residence 100% haunted with at least 2 demonic entities. It threw the family into such a fervor that they moved out that night into a hotel, and later put the house on the market. Due to the current housing situation the house failed to sell, the family folded financially, the husband and wife got a divorce, and the house eventually went back to the bank. Here's a family ruined because of a so-called professional ghost hunting group who made a claim that they could not verify to anybody but themselves, supposedly (I've seen the evidence. The claim was not justified).

In summary, we do have a responsibility to those people that come to us as paranormal researchers and investigators. That responsibility includes respect, integrity, anonymity, and all other manor of personal respect. It's common sense when getting into this field. If the client needs more than that based on a very real disability (mental or emotional), then we as investigators are duty-bound to direct them to a trained, educated, and registered psychological professional and we need to then bow out of the situation by any (respectful) means necessary.

My two cents.

 

[trainedobserver]

Personally, I think the Emma Woods affair is extremely positive no matter what you think the truth is about the "he said, she said" part of it. It has really spotlighted how hypnosis has been misused and abused by amateurs and would-be clinicians. We didn't need the Emma Woods affair to tell us that by any means but it should give some people pause. Hypnosis has become another sacrament or pseudo-religious practice with people hypnotizing each other between speakers at UFO conferences and worse. Can or should hypnosis or any alleged information produced by it be given further serious consideration? Like Crop Circles or Billy Meier photographs, what can be gained by encouraging it?

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Personally, I think the Emma Woods affair is extremely positive no matter what you think the truth is about the "he said, she said" part of it. It has really spotlighted how hypnosis has been misused and abused by amateurs and would-be clinicians. We didn't need the Emma Woods affair to tell us that by any means but it should give some people pause. Hypnosis has become another sacrament or pseudo-religious practice with people hypnotizing each other between speakers at UFO conferences and worse. Can or should hypnosis or any alleged information produced by it be given further serious consideration? Like Crop Circles or Billy Meier photographs, what can be gained by encouraging it?

The problem is that, with the "Woods" case, it's hard to focus on the core issue, which is whether hypnotic regression is a useful tool to investigate abductions, or whether laymen should be involved. To "Woods," she has become the professional victim, and Jacobs is just defending his turf. Nothing is gained from it. It's all about the gossip value and the lurid headlines.

 

[ArchieBedford]

Personally, I think the Emma Woods affair is extremely positive no matter what you think the truth is about the "he said, she said" part of it. It has really spotlighted how hypnosis has been misused and abused by amateurs and would-be clinicians. We didn't need the Emma Woods affair to tell us that by any means but it should give some people pause. Hypnosis has become another sacrament or pseudo-religious practice with people hypnotizing each other between speakers at UFO conferences and worse. Can or should hypnosis or any alleged information produced by it be given further serious consideration? Like Crop Circles or Billy Meier photographs, what can be gained by encouraging it?

People who want to to recover missing time memories are likely to continue to pursue every opportunity which might enable them to do so. They will generally continue to go first to those who they see exhibit understanding of a phenomenon which dovetails closely with their own experiences. In my personal experience with abductees (which is fairly extensive) they feel far more confident talking to someone who understands this phenomenon in detail than to someone (like 95% of psychiatrists/healthcare professionals) who are totally fucking clueless about it.

What someone posts on an internet chat forum somewhere about how this or that demonstrates how evil and dangerous is hypnosis is never going to make any difference to these people. As in any area of life there will be the occasional vindictive, manipulative psychotic of whom the researcher will need to be aware. But the baby should not be thrown out with the bath water: those who suspect they might be abductees who even become aware of this circus (most aren't aware of it, because they have no interest in the UFO/paranormal field and don't ever visit websites like this or listen to online interviews) are smart enough to understand that no conclusion can or should be drawn about the value of regressive hypnosis from one individual's anonymous defamation campaign. So, people continue to read Jacobs' books, recognise the narrative resonates with their experiences, and contact him. There is nothing you will ever be able to do on an internet chat forum to stop this process. Thankfully.

 

[Simone_m]

Yeah, I'm going to chime in but on an aspect of this that's more wide-ranging and something that was addressed in the original post, and that's how we treat people in the field of paranormal research. Some would argue that our clients (regardless of the paranormal discipline; ghost hunting, UFO research, psychic studies), are already unstable. I wouldn't go that far but at the very least all of them already have pre-conceived believes about what they have experienced. Screwing around and being irresponsible regarding those believes is dangerous to say the least. When dealing with clients or experiencers it's important to remember that, indeed, those people may be unstable or at least on-edge. Common courtesy and some political exchange to put them at ease works wonders.

Failing to do so by taking a devil-may-care attitude gets you in the situation that Jacob's is in, and maybe worse. Screwing around and claiming to be a "professional" anything carries the danger of legal responsibility for the person who's under your "care". Some other examples include times when a ghost hunting group (less scrupulous than my own, I may add) stamped a local residence 100% haunted with at least 2 demonic entities. It threw the family into such a fervor that they moved out that night into a hotel, and later put the house on the market. Due to the current housing situation the house failed to sell, the family folded financially, the husband and wife got a divorce, and the house eventually went back to the bank. Here's a family ruined because of a so-called professional ghost hunting group who made a claim that they could not verify to anybody but themselves, supposedly (I've seen the evidence. The claim was not justified).

In summary, we do have a responsibility to those people that come to us as paranormal researchers and investigators. That responsibility includes respect, integrity, anonymity, and all other manor of personal respect. It's common sense when getting into this field. If the client needs more than that based on a very real disability (mental or emotional), then we as investigators are duty-bound to direct them to a trained, educated, and registered psychological professional and we need to then bow out of the situation by any (respectful) means necessary.

My two cents.

Thank you thank you, for your two cents. I am the (new username) author of this thread. I underwent a traumatic military inquiry that was Ufo-related, and to my memory, as BEST that I can recall, only **ONE** Ufologist, (Don Ecker) since I've been out of the service from yr 1988, has come close to expressing empathy concern. All the rest of them had attitudes like, What can you and your story do FOR ME and my ambitions, etc? Bastards.

http://www.dqrm.com/shows/DMR/dmr-07-m.mp3
http://darkmattersradio.com/?m=201002
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https://www.theparacast.com/darkmatters/SimoneMendez01.mp3
https://www.theparacast.com/darkmatters/SimoneMendez02.mp3
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http://www.ufodigest.com/shadowmag/extra/topsecret.html

 

[Simone_m]

I am trying to post and it is not working

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Read the forum help instructions and if no luck use private message to one of the forum Wise Watchers

 

[dyingsun]

She sounded hardly 'sane' to me, and I'm not white-knighting Jacobs here. All heard and considered, there was more then a Practiicioner/Patient relationship there in my opinion.

 

[Sean Elifritz]

Personally, I think the Emma Woods affair is extremely positive no matter what you think the truth is about the "he said, she said" part of it. It has really spotlighted how hypnosis has been misused and abused by amateurs and would-be clinicians. We didn't need the Emma Woods affair to tell us that by any means but it should give some people pause. Hypnosis has become another sacrament or pseudo-religious practice with people hypnotizing each other between speakers at UFO conferences and worse. Can or should hypnosis or any alleged information produced by it be given further serious consideration? Like Crop Circles or Billy Meier photographs, what can be gained by encouraging it?

I mostly agree with you. Hell, I've been convinced long before I ever heard of Emma Woods that 90% of hypnotic testimony has big, big problems. Whether it be charges of sexual molestation, past lives, UFO abductions, whatever, there's been plenty of evidence that the practice is deeply flawed. But my primary beef with this whole affair has been with the way some people are using this case. Even that isn't really a proper way of putting it, rather it is a combination of that and the extremes to which they are going with it. There's a group of people out there that for years have just flat-out not liked the Hopkins/Jacobs viewpoint, hypothesis, whatever you want to call it. In other words, they don't like the ETH, don't like a literal explanation, and really don't like the idea of hybrids. They might be right, all of that might be total bunk. But in the end they really don't know and it just bothers me that they feel so absolutely certain that it is wrong. But the point is I just get the impression that some of these people are focusing so much on this affair not because of some affinity for Emma Woods or even because of their distaste for hypnosis but rather because they don't like Jacobs' theories and they feel this is the smoking gun that validates their standpoint. Hopkins/Jacobs have been at this for 30-40 years and I'm routinely told that this one example of bad behavior completely invalidates all of their efforts. Maybe I'm off on Fantasy Island but that seems like an exaggerated claim to me.

Hell, it wasn't long ago that I heard one of these critics say that the very idea of hybrid beings originated from hypnosis. That isn't true, of course, as hybrid testimony originated from Antonio Villas Boas in 1957, nearly a decade before hypnotic regression was ever used to investigate an alien abduction claim. And what about the Peter Khoury case with the bizarre results of the analyzed hair he claimed came from a hybrid and whom passed a polygraph? But I don't think they care about inconsistencies like these in their arguments. They've got it in their heads that this one calamitous episode invalidates the ETH, hybrids, hypnosis, David Jacobs, Budd Hopkins, sauerkraut on New Year's Eve, anything and everything, little details to the contrary be damned (And many, many more could be presented especially since roughly 1/3rd of abduction testimony is retrieved without the aid of hypnosis and there is plenty of naughty hybrid material in there as well). It's not that I even disagree with them so much as it is the certainty and smugness with which they present the argument. Yes, I totally concede that there very well might not be a part human/part something else anywhere in the universe (Except maybe Michael Jackson). But how can anyone claim to know that with utter certainty and in the same breath say that there is something legitimate to be found in other abductee testimony?

 

[ArchieBedford]

...hybrid testimony originated from Antonio Villas Boas in 1957, nearly a decade before hypnotic regression was ever used to investigate an alien abduction claim. And what about the Peter Khoury case with the bizarre results of the analyzed hair he claimed came from a hybrid and whom passed a polygraph? But I don't think they care about inconsistencies like these in their arguments. They've got it in their heads that this one calamitous episode invalidates the ETH, hybrids, hypnosis, David Jacobs, Budd Hopkins, sauerkraut on New Year's Eve, anything and everything, little details to the contrary be damned (And many, many more could be presented especially since roughly 1/3rd of abduction testimony is retrieved without the aid of hypnosis and there is plenty of naughty hybrid material in there as well). It's not that I even disagree with them so much as it is the certainty and smugness with which they present the argument. Yes, I totally concede that there very well might not be a part human/part something else anywhere in the universe (Except maybe Michael Jackson). But how can anyone claim to know that with utter certainty and in the same breath say that there is something legitimate to be found in other abductee testimony?

Answer to your question, Eddie: because, in the case of people like Vaeni (he's not the only one, just a more obvious example) you're dealing with the stupidity of personal ideology. They read "Messengers of Deception" or "Dimensions" and think they have seen the light and are now superior to all lesser mortals. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

 

[Elendil]

Well, I'm not even convinced that we can totally kick hypnosis out of the window. Do we need to be highly skeptical about it? Yes. Is it a very slippery terrain? Sure.
But it still puzzles me how could different people get the same thing: Mack and Carpenter got the same thing as Jacobs and Hopkins. And apparently it was always the small details that were supposedly never reported in books or otherwise. I think Carpenter said that when he was on the show in January.

The only other option is that the researchers are lying, or twisting data in order to score some points for their way of doing things...

 

[tyder001]

I have never been hypnotised so I am not trying to push any agenda. I do think hynosis may be a very valid (under controled conditions and proper training) way to relax and call forth memories. Should we be skeptical of it? Yes. But, don't simply throw it out as if it were not a legitimate tool. Being educated in the so called "soft" sciences I can tell you that it's not always a slam dunk when doing any kind of counseling or therapy. I have talked with some folks and heard "wow you really know your stuff." Talked to others and heard "wow you really are an idiot." I would never take hypnosis as a basis of "proving" abduction or past lives or other things that are actually (true or not) beyond our current understanding. But, I wouldn't simply throw it out of the tool box either.

 

[PararealitySaint]

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As far as a lie detector test in some way emphasizing credence to a hybrid, Zanex can do wonders. There is a very good reason why lie detection devices are not allowed to be utilized in the courtroom, and that simply is the end result can easily be influenced by so many exterior variables, that the conclusions are a little better than guess work, even though they purport to be the "BS" 99.8% accurate….yeah.

In a perfect condition, with all variables investigated to have no influence on the end result, even then the causality can, and usually is, varying. I have seen where two tests were given to the same person with two different testers, and the conclusions were conflicting to put it mildly. This, after the person was blood tested to find no medical influences, blood pressure reading averaged, and the lab in which it was taken with very little in the way of outside interferences. What the person taking the test did not tell the “Scientists” was that he was trained in an eastern from of yogi which allowed for an inner change of condition (a self metabolized manipulation) which could fool the test. Even so, this input isn’t a necessary variable. The person giving the test could be having a bad day, etc.

Please refer to the following article if you wish further information as to the farce of Lie detection devises or the discipline itself:

http://antipolygraph.org/articles/article-053.shtml

Between hypnosis, our dependency on lie detector tests, and mediums, the proof is definitely NOT in the package.

 

[trainedobserver]

With all due respect to those experiencers/abductees present who have been hypnotically regressed, all I am saying is that if anything the Woods/Jacob's public fiasco should serve as a cautionary tale for researchers and those seeking them out.

It would be one thing to be hypnotized by a licensed and practicing psychiatrist in a clinical situation while under their care, however how many times is that the case in alien abduction research? In particular, we know that is not the case with Woods/Jacobs. In my opinion, hypnotic regression doesn't belong in just anyone's "tool-box." Although the casual and amateur use of steroids is highly dangerous there are beneficial uses when directed by a physician. I think you can say the same for hypnosis, psychotropic drugs, MRIs, and several other things that might aid in the analysis of alien abduction memories. I'm just saying I'd no more subject myself to hypnotic regression by an alien abduction researcher than I would allow them to take an MRI of my head.

 

[ArchieBedford]

I'm just saying I'd no more subject myself to hypnotic regression by an alien abduction researcher than I would allow them to take an MRI of my head.

Hi TO

So how else you gonna remember what has been blocked? You can try self-hypnosis or meditation; inducing a state of relaxation in yourself or whatever, which is basically the same thing, if you're more comfortable with that. Or you might prefer to go through life knowing you have so many hours of blocked memories and you're not going to do anything which might help recover them; then you'll never have any idea what happened to you. Many people feel they don't want to live that way, which is why they continue to pursue the course of action they do.

BTW MRI is a non-invasive diagnostic process similar to taking a photo, normally performed by a technician who just presses buttons on the scanner. The procedure carries no known risk - but you probably knew that.

---------- Post added at 06:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:31 PM ----------

It would be one thing to be hypnotized by a licensed and practicing psychiatrist in a clinical situation while under their care, however how many times is that the case in alien abduction research?

Too few times, unfortunately.

Those qualified in psychiatry or hypnotherapy who do abduction research - like the late John Mack in Boston, John Carpenter in Missouri, Yvonne Smith or June Steiner in California, Jed Turnbull in NYC and a few dozen others - generally charge by the hour and always get exactly the same narratives from abductees as those who are not "qualified." We've had this debate before: the issue is not "qualification" in hypnosis or psychiatry, because that's irrelevant. The issue for an abductee is: are they effective in helping unblock suppressed memories, and do they understand the phenomenon sufficiently? These are the important questions for abductees, ALWAYS.

This woman in NZ did not go to a psychiatrist in NZ to investigate her abduction experiences: she went to Budd Hopkins and David Jacobs, and petitioned them, pleaded with them, to work with her to help uncover her memories and make sense of them. One said no; the other, reluctantly, eventually gave in and agreed. His mistake.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Her therapist made the initial contact, actually. Big mistake!

Evidently there are no therapists who do that sort of research in NZ.

 

[trainedobserver]

So how else you gonna remember what has been blocked?

That requires the assumption that something is blocked and/or that hypnotic regression by a alien abduction researcher (as opposed to a licensed psychiatrist) could unblock them. I think its unnecessary to take such risks myself. Personally, it just scares the crap out of me and it would be a last ditch move to say the least after having exhausting all neurological possibles.

---------- Post added at 01:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:03 PM ----------

Her therapist made the initial contact, actually. Big mistake!

It would be interesting to understand why her therapist thought it was a valid option. Her basis for arriving at the conclusion would tell us a lot I imagine. I've certainly gotten some really questionable advice from professionals in the past. I think I may have even given some out myself.

 

[Kieran]

I personally believe if you can't remember a paranormal visitation or whatever maybe your better of not remembering! In saying that, I not sure I get this memory-block by aliens stuff. I not sure if that is just wishful thinking on behave of the alleged abductee or it exactly happened? I have hard time believing a non human intelligence would go to trouble of block memories, knowing they can be so easily broken with methods like Hypnosis allegedly! It seems a silly practice for advanced intelligent race from elsewhere to do.

If people are been abducted been taken from their homes at night, during the day, maybe why they don't remember parts of the abduction, is that it never happened! it just a dream made up by the claimant for self serving purpose or the parts they don't remember reason one they were kind of in a comatose condition during the important parts of the experience. To me this would explain why there is gaps, were things don't add up in lot of these stories. For me is just to easy to say I can't remember that or this, that aliens blocked my memories of this experience. There is zero nothing not one piece of confirming evidence Aliens, have ever done this to any abductee, and we be deluded to believe such evidence exists that aliens are blocking the memories of an experience.

Yes, we have high strangeness and odd weird stuff occurring allegedly, but personally I don't buy into the theory each person that has been visited and taken by whatever, that person is having memories blocked in way so they can't remember later. The problem with that also there is hell of lot of people who remember everything without the need for Hypnosis, they've memories of the whole event nothing is missing or blocked. Why are lot remembering and others are not?

Hypnosis is used in the real-world to treat people who have chronic and mild- pain and to try to get people overcome certain fears phobias give up booze and fags and so on, but it is a whole other area when using this method to retrieve memories of alien visitation for lack of a better term.

People are been asked to go back and remember an "Event" that has long since past. There put into a relaxed state of mind. There is no reason to not believe a person would have the balls or be unable to pretend his in some other area of his mind recalling this events and fool the person hearing the account to believe in what their hearing!. Hypnosis can only work if the person it being tried on believes it can, but there is still a question mark on the people going to these places for help. What is happening a few new memories appear during sessions, that basically is what they are new memories, they were not there before undergoing hypnosis.

That in my opinion is fraught with danger, memories retrieved at later time can not be trusted as an honest- memory end of. While there is no-reason to not believe the memories, can and do not hold some value or give a clue of sorts, the way the memories were retrieved is still an extremely risky believe to hold onto. Many ufology beliefs have been encouraged over the years this is just one, but one that could have the most disinformation in it, and be directing us away from ever finding out the real answer or answers.

I personally have no problem with alien-abduction research. I personally do believe there is a genuine phenomenon were interactions between humans and something else an intelligence is happening, but just my opinion again. It not as widespread as it often been claimed, also I think it more to do with an paranormal-supernatural visitation than aliens from another world cruising the earth's skies looking for fresh human meat to abduct.

I think also we should ask more questions of the people involved in doing the research, and the people going to these places to be allegedly helped. What do both parties honestly want to gain from it? I think-we have to be skeptical of every single person who claims abduction. I personally am skeptical of lot of these claims of people been taken aboard star- ships from other worlds, that is just me a personal opinion. I personally also don't believe lot of these abduction-cases happened in the way people are claiming, as some people obviously have gathered from reading this post. As for Jacobs I not sure about him, but I will give an opinion which is important.

The tapes that "PARATOPIA" aired months back were damaging to him professionally and personally again my opinion and many others, as for people backing him up, that is just silly when you hear him speak for "Himself" on the tapes, and him saying such delusional stuff. Surely people can see this guy is little out there, an intelligence person Jacobs , but still often intelligent people are prone to certain wild delusional beliefs, even worse still, when wild-delusional beliefs are believed by others listening to these wild-delusional beliefs and believe it to be true without question.

 

[ArchieBedford]

I not sure I get this memory-block by aliens stuff.

Kieran, unless it happens to you you're unlikely to "get it." If it does, you have no choice.

---------- Post added at 05:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:53 AM ----------

I have hard time believing a non human intelligence would go to trouble of block memories, knowing they can be so easily broken with methods like Hypnosis allegedly!

Yes, the old Michael Shermer/Philip Klass attitude of "I can't believe it, so it isn't true."

Quote from Jacques Vallee: "The behaviour of non-human visitors to our planet, or of a superior race coexisting with us on this planet, would not necessarily appear purposeful to a human observer. Scientists who brush aside reports because `Obviously intelligent visitors would not behave like that' simply have not given serious thought to the problem of non-human intelligence."

---------- Post added at 05:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:00 AM ----------

There is zero nothing not one piece of confirming evidence Aliens, have ever done this to any abductee, and we be deluded to believe such evidence exists that aliens are blocking the memories of an experience.

Actually there is a ton of evidence, but you have to look for it and study it. How many abductees have you worked with (say to the nearest 10)?

---------- Post added at 05:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:01 AM ----------

It not as widespread as it often been claimed, also I think it more to do with an paranormal-supernatural visitation

You think what you like, Kieran: what you think does not change the phenomenon or the regular physical aspects of it experienced by so many. "Paranormal-supernatural visitation" explains absolutely nothing: it's a cop-out.

---------- Post added at 05:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:03 AM ----------

I think also we should ask more questions of the people involved in doing the research,

Ask them, then. How much time have you spent investigating this phenomenon and the methodology used with investigators? How many hours have you spent in discussion about this with Dave Jacobs, Budd Hopkins, June Steiner, Yvonne Smith, John Carpenter, David Howard, Jed Turnbull, even Mary Rodwell or Dolores Cannon? Have you ever even bothered to phone any of them, or meet them?

I'm not being confrontational and not talking about you here, but 95% of "critics" of abduction research know absolutely fuck all about the phenomenon (it is very, very complex), and have never done any work with it personally. This makes opinion on the matter completely worthless. It's the equivalent of some dumbass ignioramus who flunked basic maths at school claiming the WTC towers were destroyed by controlled demolitions because "that's what it looks like to me." - ignorant, lazy and stupid. So if you want to understand this thing, then engage with it properly and eventually, you will begin to "get it."

Again, apologies for my characteristically blunt style but I do know something about this issue, for real.

 

[PararealitySaint]

I have never been hypnotised so I am not trying to push any agenda. I do think hynosis may be a very valid (under controled conditions and proper training) way to relax and call forth memories. Should we be skeptical of it? Yes. But, don't simply throw it out as if it were not a legitimate tool. Being educated in the so called "soft" sciences I can tell you that it's not always a slam dunk when doing any kind of counseling or therapy. I have talked with some folks and heard "wow you really know your stuff." Talked to others and heard "wow you really are an idiot." I would never take hypnosis as a basis of "proving" abduction or past lives or other things that are actually (true or not) beyond our current understanding. But, I wouldn't simply throw it out of the tool box either.

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Perhaps I am being a little overtly zealous in my criticism of hypnosis, but I have a great deal of difficulty giving it even the semblance of professional entitlement such as a “soft” science.

A therapeutically driven relaxation method yes, a scientific investment to preclude a hypothetical theory….I’m not seeing the honest methodology. Too many years before the psychoanalytical field included hypnosis as one of their so called “sciences”, it was classified as nothing more than an offshoot of Mesmerism. Once again, for reasons of “abduction or any of the investigatory necessities of the field”, considering the many influencing variables which invest themselves in the machinations of thus, I would think true scientific analysis would ignore what could only be classified as a “pseudoscience” at best.