Dave Jacobs, George Knapp &.....what obligations

[dyingsun]

"over the phone".

 

[Sean Elifritz]

"over the phone".

Meh, that's only the half of it. IM hypnosis too. Somebody named Brian Reed confirmed it.

 

[dyingsun]

I heard that and as said, I'm far from white-knighting the man.

 

[Ron Collins]

Hold on, are you shitting me? Jacobs actually claims to do hypnosis over instant messenger?

 

[ArchieBedford]

Hold on, are you shitting me? Jacobs actually claims to do hypnosis over instant messenger?

No, he didn't. They worked on skype.

---------- Post added at 08:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:54 AM ----------

Meh, that's only the half of it. IM hypnosis too. Somebody named Brian Reed confirmed it.

"Bryan Reed" (another pseudonym) was a 21-year old kid promoted by the paratopia clowns as "proof" that "Emma Woods" was "vindicated."

This "Bryan Reed" character may have had abduction experiences and wanted to look into them. He had five sessions of regressive hypnosis himself, then decided to set himself up as a hypnotherapist (at 21 years old). One of the things he claimed to do was carry out memory recovery sessions by instant messaging. Dave Jacobs was not involved in this. The kid in fact speaks quite highly of Jacobs and says that he always respected him, that he helped out his family in past years etc. but that he might have been fooled by an abductee whose memories were made up.

You can listen to the interview in the paratopia archives if you want all the gory details. IMO the kid comes over as something of a fantasist and many of his claims should be treated with caution, to say the least.

 

[Kieran]

Kieran, unless it happens to you you're unlikely to "get it." If it does, you have no choice.

---------- Post added at 05:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:53 AM ----------



Yes, the old Michael Shermer/Philip Klass attitude of "I can't believe it, so it isn't true."

Quote from Jacques Vallee: "The behaviour of non-human visitors to our planet, or of a superior race coexisting with us on this planet, would not necessarily appear purposeful to a human observer. Scientists who brush aside reports because `Obviously intelligent visitors would not behave like that' simply have not given serious thought to the problem of non-human intelligence."

---------- Post added at 05:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:00 AM ----------



Actually there is a ton of evidence, but you have to look for it and study it. How many abductees have you worked with (say to the nearest 10)?

---------- Post added at 05:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:01 AM ----------



You think what you like, Kieran: what you think does not change the phenomenon or the regular physical aspects of it experienced by so many. "Paranormal-supernatural visitation" explains absolutely nothing: it's a cop-out.

---------- Post added at 05:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:03 AM ----------



Ask them, then. How much time have you spent investigating this phenomenon and the methodology used with investigators? How many hours have you spent in discussion about this with Dave Jacobs, Budd Hopkins, June Steiner, Yvonne Smith, John Carpenter, David Howard, Jed Turnbull, even Mary Rodwell or Dolores Cannon? Have you ever even bothered to phone any of them, or meet them?

I'm not being confrontational and not talking about you here, but 95% of "critics" of abduction research know absolutely fuck all about the phenomenon (it is very, very complex), and have never done any work with it personally. This makes opinion on the matter completely worthless. It's the equivalent of some dumbass ignioramus who flunked basic maths at school claiming the WTC towers were destroyed by controlled demolitions because "that's what it looks like to me." - ignorant, lazy and stupid. So if you want to understand this thing, then engage with it properly and eventually, you will begin to "get it."

Again, apologies for my characteristically blunt style but I do know something about this issue, for real.

Well true it has never happened to me, an abduction experience. But Archie I not saying it is impossible that aliens are blocking memories it possible. But surely your not that surprised by the line of questioning I asked? Taking a person from their home requires a certain amount of work and effort, the intelligence taking these people allegedly would hardly continue doing fruitless work to block memories if it doesn't work ever. Just my personal opinion that all.

You quote Vallée. Obviously there could be many differences in behavior and motives between us and non-human intelligence from elsewhere. But you still expect visiting intelligences from elsewhere technologically driven, to be rational and be logical in going about their work? Also there is no reason to believe aliens are blocking memories of an abduction experience Archie, only that abductees are claiming it to be so!

That is a powerful believe to believe in when the evidence for that believe came from one party only.That is bordering on faith since you have no evidence to back it up with it when asked to provide. Again it might be happening like I said before Aliens-from other planets could be blocking memories, but to me that is such boring and predictable thing to do every time, my opinion that is just plain stupid not intelligent practice for a different intelligence to do. Maybe the aliens are not all that smart, maybe we are giving them too much credit!

Why would any intelligence go to the effort of doing it every time-it not helping the person or the intelligence taking people, if it can be broken by Hypnosis. I feel like I am repeating myself here. But if something does not make sense to me I have to express that opinion. How can we be sure does retrieved memories are real, they've been retrieved much later and at a later time after the experience Archie. Surely you understand that. The're not imprinted memories were your awake and your eyes are open and you experience something as it happens before you. People who have had abduction- experiences allegedly are doing hypnosis in the believe they have missing memories, but if their missing and non-existent, you can never rule out the possibility the claimant to these experiences, is not making it all up or filling in areas to make that person feel more comfortable in their belief system they have.

Abduction researchers are interesting. well I have heard lot about there research over the years, but their research would be worthless without the contribution of the witnesses. And, that is were we should start from when reviewing abduction methodology, how many of these witnesses are credible reliable and how trustworthy as people are they? This is crucial because the ideas around abduction come from books written by these UFO-Abduction Researchers, but the ideas in the books are based on research that might not be accurate and truthful on closer inspection. I personally believe their is interactions between some force an intelligence and certain humans that have been picked out for whatever reason, but my point is the couch-hypnosis sessions of UFO-abduction research is flawed in key areas for to be believed outright.

Archie I have seen UFOs and I have explained what I have seen, but my opinion is worthless unless I can prove what I saw. I fully accept i have no-concrete evidence to hand over. But there is ample evidence for the existence of something in the skies, you say there is tons of evidence for the reality of abductions, thats not true. The only thing we have is words not even a photograph not even a video not even a file or government file that abductions are occurring as the abduction mythos suggests is the case. But like I said before I believe abduction phenomenon is real to a certain point.

It not a cop-out how is the paranormal- supernatural theory that. It actually makes lot of sense and would explain abduction experience more than aliens arriving from other planets. Archie, maybe is easier for your sanity to believe people are being abducted by aliens in space-ships. Look maybe we have many species coming from many worlds in our universe or further, but there is no reason to not believe maybe least one of these species crossed-the borders of third-dimensional space into the fourth dimension and on again and met other species long the way or vice a versa. It quiet possible Archie our knowledge is very-limited on what has happened beyond the planet we live on. I personally believe there is a number of visitors coming here from places outside of our view, but the intelligence arrival is well-documented with sightings, but the area from were it came from is not. I don't rule out any theory on origins out fully, because nobody has a clue really what is going on.

 

[Hotkafka]

Her therapist made the initial contact, actually. Big mistake!

Evidently there are no therapists who do that sort of research in NZ.

Therein lies the crux of this whole issue. Therapists typically would not pursue a case such as Woods because their interest would not involve research but treatment. And with treatment comes a whole world of perceptual reframes: reframes informed by methodologies currently dominated by theories adhering to the Medical Model. Unfortunately, there is no room for these types of experiences in psychology: i.e. your typical abduction experience would simply correlate to pathology, or symptoms of fast approaching pathology. Pursuit of therapists whom are "informed" about abduction-related phenemenon usually equates to an encounter with a therapist whom is practicing outside of the dominant models of psychiatry and psychology, or in other words, a therapist whom has probably been labled as a quack by his/her peers. This is especially true when you talk to professionals in the field about the use of hypnotherapy: hypnosis as a tool is quickly becoming an wildly outdated concept. Research on memory has proven that "lost or blocked memories" is a notion that is simply missing the mark, as "marked memories," which equate to traumatic memories, have proven to be the easiest to access. Having undertaken training in this field (psychotherapy) to pursue work with those whom have had anamolous experiences, I'd have to admit this is a difficult divide to traverse: and especially tricky when you consider the ethical imperatives behind therapy, this being that treatment should always be the primary intent in any therapuetic endevor.

 

[ArchieBedford]

Pursuit of therapists whom are "informed" about abduction-related phenemenon usually equates to an encounter with a therapist whom is practicing outside of the dominant models of psychiatry and psychology, or in other words, a therapist whom has probably been labled as a quack by his/her peers.

Makes you appreciate how far John Mack stuck his neck out in publicly stating his conviction that people having these experiences were suffering from no known pathology.

 

[PararealitySaint]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <wunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Since this conversation seems to be leading to a legitimate understanding of various opinion oriented directives toward the understanding of abduction, I just wanted to go on the record with my two cents as far as a personal conviction on what is happening.

Unlike most of the more “politically correct” theories out there today, I believe in the Word of God according to the Bible. I know this might make less friends for me in the “UFO” world, but I also believe that honesty is the best policy in all cases, and thought it was time I stated this as my foundation (A foundation mind you, which I believe but also seriously find respect for other opinions and theories as well).

I believe that this is an inter-dimensional battle as old as time itself, and it’s happening between the forces of good and the forces of evil. Whether the UFO’s appear to be benevolent or malevolent truly depends on whether the messenger is “heaven” sent or “diabolical”, and I believe it is as simple as that.

The pain/fear people normally feel when abducted by so called “aliens” is in my opinion a direct consequence of a form of energy vampirism, committed upon the victim for charging purposes. If the visit is one of comfort, understanding, or love, I also believe in angelic manifestations and messengers of God as well.

Now how far does this theory stretch compared to any other theory out there? Exactly as far because there is no evidence, there is no “physical” proof that the “WHY” is a given. Some scientific methods to dislodge metallic objects from victims could be construed as evidence this evil is occurring, but who is to say it isn’t demons doing this instead of an extraterrestrial alien race? In all honesty, until I have an alien from outside our terrestrial domain, set down his craft on the White House lawn, shake whichever President’s hand he, or she, or it (in the case of androgyny) extends out there and then takes passengers (hopefully not slaves or dinner) on the craft back to the home planet for a pow wow; I’ll stick to the over 5000 year old word of GOD and his Son’s words any day.

Besides, even if this was to happen and I witnessed first hand this other planet and its sovereign entities, whose to say this isn’t yet another illusion or ploy of the dark one to move us away from the teachings of Jesus Christ and into the very masked and deformed sentiments of an Anti-Christian mentality based on what we call in the Christian world, a “false God”…To some Satan or Lucifer in this context is called the Lord of the Air is he not?

Happy New Year All and God Bless the Paracast.

 

[ArchieBedford]

Kieran

You need to actively engage with the phenomenon for a couple of years and, when you have gotten to know people who go through this experience, you start to realize the data are compelling and demand an explanation. There's a huge amount of data. The primary objectives of researchers/therapists/investigators vary in emphasis but may be summarised as:

1. To make sense of the data and discover what is going on, by primarily focusing on the evidence and not being conclusion-led

2. To help people who experience this stuff come to terms with it and meet others who also go through the same, so making their lives easier


No-one has as a prime objective to try to convince a skeptic or debunker, who can't be bothered to do any work on the issue or seriously engage with it. If you don't work with abductees and you don't work with the primary data, you don't know anything about it: everything is going to be secondhand or filtered through your prejudices of what your mind will or won't allow to admit is real. Against consensus reality, it's crazy. But it happens nontheless, and to thousands or millions of people all over the world who all report the same thing. This is the indication of a real phenomenon, not a cultural artefact. It is stubbornly what it is, doesn't change significantly over time or location, and does not change with the the investigator. It needs to be understood and explained. "Paranormal intrusion" or "supernatural visitation" or whatever is just bland, meaningless bollocks. It doesn't begin to address the data, which are very specific, and doesn't explain anything. It's an evasion, a cop-out, like new-age mush.

 

[James1]

Hold on, are you shitting me? Jacobs actually claims to do hypnosis over instant messenger?

No, he didn't. They worked on skype.

---------- Post added at 08:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:54 AM ----------



One of the things he claimed to do was carry out memory recovery sessions by instant messaging. Dave Jacobs was not involved in this.

Wrong. Brian Reed said David Jacobs was doing hypnosis with Elizabeth on IM, not on skype. Emma Woods also says this. George Knapp asked Jacobs about hypnosis on IM and Jacobs did not deny it.


Brian's interview:
Paratopia
Episode 94: Brian Reed Vindicates Emma Woods

 

[Elendil]

Wrong. Brian Reed said David Jacobs was doing hypnosis with Elizabeth on IM, not on skype. Emma Woods also says this. George Knapp asked Jacobs about hypnosis on IM and Jacobs did not deny it.

Wait a minute, what does that mean? Does it mean that Jacobs tried hypnosis via instant messaging as in: he sent a message, the other party read it and kaboom - hypnotic state induced OR that they used an instant messaging program? Miranda is an IM, ICQ is an IM, but they still have voice and video call options as far as I know, you don't have to use Skype exclusively...

In all honesty, until I have an alien from outside our terrestrial domain, set down his craft on the White House lawn, shake whichever President’s hand he, or she, or it (in the case of androgyny) extends out there and then takes passengers (hopefully not slaves or dinner) on the craft back to the home planet for a pow wow; I’ll stick to the over 5000 year old word of GOD and his Son’s words any day.

Well, unless your GOD or his little boy come down to Earth and verify themselves that they really wrote that stuff 5000 years ago I wouldn't stick to jack shit if I were you. The ETH and the EDH/IDH are both in the mix - the word "demon" might just be a way the old humans called something which is just above us on the food chain. It still doesn't mean that Jesus and Satan are literally true.
Maybe there really are entities who somehow "feed" upon us, but that is all just toying with assumptions with a lot of imagination kicking in. We can just play with the concepts and can't stick with anything since there is still a big IF to whether all of this is really happening. IMHO Randle made a couple of good points which certain mental states and there was also that story of a woman who experienced missing time and relocation and got freaked out by everything, but it all turned out to be some rare disorder or something. God, where did I read about it? I wish I could remember...

On the other hand, abductees seem to have conscious recall of entities, or experience missing time prior to seeing a UFO while wide awake. Researchers claim that hypnotic recall matches in some fine details between people who never saw each other. There are a lot of pointers that something is going on. I guess we just need to dig in to all of that harder and scrutiny every single thing to the core and see what comes out. Is it really bunk or is something really happening? I guess that part is really hard to say unless you do the research for yourself and talk to people claiming experiences in order to clear up every little thing you want to clear up.

Why would any intelligence go to the effort of doing it every time-it not helping the person or the intelligence taking people, if it can be broken by Hypnosis.

I kinda agree that this question is legit. The phenomenon exhibits a lot of weird details, just like the thing on why would the aliens constantly need to abduct humans for genetic material - surely such an intelligence could do a couple of abductions and then artificially produce anything else it needs. But, maybe they don't need just the genetic material. Maybe there really is some kind of a program that could justify the way they are doing things.

On the case of your question, we could also assume the following:

1. The phenomenon is clandestine, just as Jacobs says. That makes sense because the experience isn't always peachy and if the entities would such things openly - that might present some problems.
2. In order to keep it clandestine, something is used to block the memory. But maybe human memory is very complicated, and the entities are not omni-potent and are fallible. So, sometimes memories bleed-through or there are certain techniques which might allow for some retrieval. Mistakes could happen especially if this is done on a larger number of people, many times throughout their lives.
3. Why bother with that? If the program is going the way it's planned and there are no visible problems, why bother with a couple of researchers who could be getting a glimpse into what is going on? It's not like people all over the world are reading about it in the news and are believing that stuff. If still 99% of the population finds the topic laughable, I don't think that the beings behind the phenomenon have anything to worry about hypnosis or occasional recurring memories. The whole concept is a joy ride for the current-paradigm inclined, the researchers look like extreme loons to every single person other than a couple of wackos like us willing to spend time on forums like this one discussing this shit. Not to mention that only a handful of us here would put their hand in the fire that Jacobs is totally right in the head. If I was a tall Grey doctor, I could easily chill about my humans retrieving some shit and pass the Galactic Kool-Aid to my Reptilian buddy. Just another day at work, bro...

But then again, all the three points are just assumption. I still tend to think that such little common-sense questions are important because they might point the researchers to their own mistakes and make them think to whether they are really getting the good data. I guess that hard work is the only answer - try to be as systematic as possible, analyze every single thing and always assume that you might be totally wrong. All of this is pretty unbelievable and I guess there will be no moving forward in the sense of getting the attention of more educated people who could help if all those little questions don't have a satisfying answer and if the holes in the research are not mended...

 

[James1]

Wait a minute, what does that mean? Does it mean that Jacobs tried hypnosis via instant messaging as in: he sent a message, the other party read it and kaboom - hypnotic state induced OR that they used an instant messaging program? Miranda is an IM, ICQ is an IM, but they still have voice and video call options as far as I know, you don't have to use Skype exclusively...

Brian Reed was asked this in his interview. He says it was just typing. Elizabeth sent him transcripts of the IM hypnosis Jacobs did with her.

 

[ArchieBedford]

Brian Reed was asked this in his interview. He says it was just typing. Elizabeth sent him transcripts of the IM hypnosis Jacobs did with her.

Obviously, anyone can IM anyone else and have a conversation. But the idea you can call it "hypnosis" is ridiculous. For one thing, the subject needs to be relaxed on a couch, invariably with eyes closed so they are not gonna be able to operate a computer. Voice contact in theory is fine: I have witnessed a hypnosis session over skype (for real, live, actually there - not edited for effect and put out on the internet) and it can work OK wiithin certain parameters.

As previously stated, anything claimed by this 21-year old kid seeking his 15 minutes of fame should be treated with extreme skepticism.

 

[James1]

Obviously, anyone can IM anyone else and have a conversation. But the idea you can call it "hypnosis" is ridiculous. For one thing, the subject needs to be relaxed on a couch, invariably with eyes closed so they are not gonna be able to operate a computer. Voice contact in theory is fine: I have witnessed a hypnosis session over skype (for real, live, actually there - not edited for effect and put out on the internet) and it can work OK wiithin certain parameters.

As previously stated, anything claimed by this 21-year old kid seeking his 15 minutes of fame should be treated with extreme skepticism.

Brian Reed and Emma Woods both say Jacobs did hypnosis on IM. When Jacobs was asked about this by George Knapp, he did not deny it.

What do you base your characterization of Brian Reed on, other than he said something about Jacobs you do not like?

 

[dyingsun]

I call all this character Assassination. 'Emma Woods' was/is mentally unstable, yes, I heard the Paratopia podcasts. Call me crazy/'unstable' as well, but I believe Jaoibs and 'Woods' had some sort of affair. As far as 'Brian Reed' is concerned, ...seriously?

 

[Kieran]

Kieran

You need to actively engage with the phenomenon for a couple of years and, when you have gotten to know people who go through this experience, you start to realize the data are compelling and demand an explanation. There's a huge amount of data. The primary objectives of researchers/therapists/investigators vary in emphasis but may be summarised as:

1. To make sense of the data and discover what is going on, by primarily focusing on the evidence and not being conclusion-led

2. To help people who experience this stuff come to terms with it and meet others who also go through the same, so making their lives easier


No-one has as a prime objective to try to convince a skeptic or debunker, who can't be bothered to do any work on the issue or seriously engage with it. If you don't work with abductees and you don't work with the primary data, you don't know anything about it: everything is going to be secondhand or filtered through your prejudices of what your mind will or won't allow to admit is real. Against consensus reality, it's crazy. But it happens nontheless, and to thousands or millions of people all over the world who all report the same thing. This is the indication of a real phenomenon, not a cultural artefact. It is stubbornly what it is, doesn't change significantly over time or location, and does not change with the the investigator. It needs to be understood and explained. "Paranormal intrusion" or "supernatural visitation" or whatever is just bland, meaningless bollocks. It doesn't begin to address the data, which are very specific, and doesn't explain anything. It's an evasion, a cop-out, like new-age mush.

I can accept my opinion could be wrong, I'm not that ignorant Archie, but I do trust my feelings on this one.

I will stop posting to this thread since I have nothing further to add to what I have already said. But remember this Archie and Elendil thanks for posting a response to what I claimed. I don't disbelieve abductions is happening, but hypnosis been a vital tool for retrieving memories of an alien abduction has too many holes in it for me personally, to accept it as legit piece of UF0- research.

 

[Ron Collins]

Brian Reed and Emma Woods both say Jacobs did hypnosis on IM. When Jacobs was asked about this by George Knapp, he did not deny it.

I am blown away by this! If this is true I hereby relegate Dr. Jacobs as a charlatan and dismiss everything about him and his "research". Also, anyone submitting to hypnosis via instant messenger needs a damn labotomy. Honestly, do you think a person willing to be hypnotized over IM should be walking the streets making big person decisions? No. Of course not because that person is nuts. Once again, if people didn't set themselves up to be taken advantage of so easily this field would attract more real scientific attention. Alas... More fodder for the press to march as proof of the kinds of folks who involve themselves in this stuff. Makes me il.

 

[dyingsun]

If anyone can provide anything further cementing the IM 'sessions', please do so, I'm honestly baffled.

 

[ArchieBedford]

anyone submitting to hypnosis via instant messenger needs a damn labotomy. Honestly, do you think a person willing to be hypnotized over IM should be walking the streets making big person decisions? No. Of course not because that person is nuts. Once again, if people didn't set themselves up to be taken advantage of so easily this field would attract more real scientific attention. Alas... More fodder for the press to march as proof of the kinds of folks who involve themselves in this stuff. Makes me il.

Guys, get a hold on reality. You can't hypnotise someone using instant messaging - i.e. text sent from one computer to another, which has to be read and a typed response sent. The idea is utterly ridiculous, and the claims manifestly bogus. If you really are gullible enough to believe anyone in the real world might attempt this (and especially gullible enough to believe someone who goes on an internet chat show under an assumed name to get their 15 minutes of fame with made-up stories) then please ask any qualified hypnotherapist or a psychologist who understands something about the process. Or better still, ask Dave Jacobs about this in person and he'll explain it to you.

Jeeeeez. Sometimes I despair of humanity.