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Entheogens

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Of course I have. Do you think if I'd just do some mind blowing drugs I'd see the light or something? Please. For every person you think has had their lives broadened and their consciousness expanded there are a handful that have their lives, the lives of their families, and their futures destroyed. I hope that doesn't happen to you.

I'm not trying to get anyone to do anything so I apologize if that's how it looks. Nor do I believe that everyone who has a psychedelic experience will 'see the light.'

I appreciate your concern but I only experiment once or twice a year. Besides that I have never heard of anyone who has had their life ruined by say, a magic mushroom experience.
 
I agree with that statement wholeheartedly but the substances I'm referring to are completely natural, non-addictive, non-lethal, have medicinal uses and have been used in various cultures for thousands of years. This doesn't mean I think people should just go out and try them without educating themselves first.

How far down the rabbit hole have you gone?

There is nothing "natural" about ingesting poison. There is nothing natural about inhaling smoke. Medicine is one thing. The application of medicine requires forethought, understanding, and discipline. Everything you have on your list is toxic to the human system. That is why you cough, shit, puke, experience confusion, and lose touch with reality (for the lucky this is a passing thing, for the unlucky ...)when they are ingested.

So what startling revelations about reality and yourself have you experienced while under the influence of mind altering drugs? Were they worth the risk to your health, freedom, and relationships? Could you have experienced them in a more permanent, complete, and safe way? (those were rhetorical questions you need not answer)
 
I'm not trying to get anyone to do anything so I apologize if that's how it looks. Nor do I believe that everyone who has a psychedelic experience will 'see the light.'

I appreciate your concern but I only experiment once or twice a year. Besides that I have never heard of anyone who has had their life ruined by say, a magic mushroom experience.

Educate yourself then.
 
With all due respect Sir, if you consider Psilocybin, Cannabis, DMT or Ayahuasca to be toxic then I suggest it is you who needs to educate himself.
 
I am no saint, I have my vices. I recognize them as such and the reality the situation. I struggle to shed them.

My brother died a hopeless alcoholic. I had one nephew who died of a heart attack while conducting a large drug deal (one on your harmless list) after having just gotten out of prison months before for selling drugs. I have another nephew who calls me and says, "Uncle, my life is upside down and gone to shit." You want to know why? Because he is goddamn drug addict. A cabbage head whose liver is rotting away in his body. A guy who would sell out his grandmother for a hit of the good shit. He will die like his father, alone and in searing pain begging god to kill him quick. So ...there you go. Stop looking at this shit though those rose colored glasses and look at the unadulterated reality of the situation.
 
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With all due respect Sir, if you consider Psilocybin, Cannabis, DMT or Ayahuasca to be toxic then I suggest it is you who needs to educate himself.

Hey genius. Why do you think Ayahuasca makes you shit your guts out and puke? What is the active ingredient in your mushrooms? When you smoke your dope do you cough? Wake the fuck up.

You asked for my opinon. I guarandamntee you it is a highly educated one.
 
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Ayahuasca clears out toxins, that's why you puke and shit, it's a purge.

The active ingredient in Psilocybin mushrooms is er, Psilocybin. (Which is less toxic than caffeine).

Psilocybin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

No I don't cough when I smoke cannabis because I use it in moderation as opposed to sitting on a couch eating pizza all day.


I did ask for your opinion, and I respect it, I just don't agree is all.
 
It causes a "purge" because it is toxic you idiot. If you cannot understand that then I am not surprised that you think your "consciousness" is being expanded by poisoning yourself. Good luck with that shit.
 
I want to interject an alternative opinion here, and clarify previous statements, but with the following consideration. No one should ever randomly take powerful hallucinogens thinking they are just for fun. They are life altering, and they are a deep part of many indigenous cultures worldwide. Our culture knows little of this history or their spiritual connections.. They should be used with good reason, in a controlled manner. I also do not believe any powerful drug, including THC should be accessible by kids either - risky business in my opinion, alcohol included at the top of the list.

What's the good reason? Personally, as discussed elsewhere on the forum I've explained how psychedelics once helped me to clear up a number of personal issues, including seeing through the b.s. I was selling myself, and i came away from that trip realizing, the person I was about to marry was wrong for me - it would've spelled disaster for us both. We might have figured this out ourselves years later in divorce court but this experience saved us a lot of misery and did put me on a much better path. Perhaps a good talking to could have achieved this as well but I was not listening at the time to any of my friends. The effects allowed me to see the specific lies I was invested in. I am appreciative of that event.

In listening to various learned and suspicious folk I have come to understand how ayahuasca can be used as a means to help narcotic addicts escape their habit by confronting memory moments that led them to their heroin addiction. I could see exactly how that would work and why you would never need to use it again after that. At my age I refuse to take any strong drug that would potentially interfere with my personal future, family etc.. Priorities are priorities, and I needed many sober decades to understand that. Though growing up with alcoholics did colour a lot of my thinking around state sponsored drugs.

Trained - I agree with so much of your posts that I feel I need to respond in a more detailed manner to your concerns. All addictions take us down. To add to your personal stories I would also cite a personal family friend who after smoking one joint and taking one hit of acid spent the remainder of his teen years convinced that his parents had hired the mafia to kill him. He was never really right ever again, and as far as i know is still institutionalized twenty years later. You make important points about drug abuse, criminality and misery. We should all heed them.

However, drugs are medecine, and when used correctly can heal in different ways. Our culture does not understand the power or place of psychedelics and so we intersect with them in terrible ways. However, there are other potentials for them that are not recreational:

Psilocybin for Anxiety and Depression in Cancer | Psychology Today

The idea of drug therapy as a means to aid long standing anxieties or as a means to confront and/or establish better personal truths have been attributed to these powerful psychoactive agents. We just have not been able to use them in proper medical studies to fully understand their use or how they could be legitimized in society for good until quite recently. And while DMT sounds like it's the quickest way to find out if aliens really are crypto terrestrials, I have no interest or need to take that risk. However, I do see the benefit of recent controlled medical research into using it if it could be used to heal others of underlying psychological conditions that current synthetic drugs are unable to.

Personally I have more faith that we will find more healing through proper medical and scientific inquiry into psychedelics than all the supposed good that injecting 'mad' people with lithium or haloperidol has done to date. So far I've seen a lot of good friends destroyed by state sponsored pharmacology, as those drugs deprive and harm more than they heal. Perhaps through research into this other natural drug class we may be able to help instead of harm? Just my alternative two cents.
 
First, I apologize for coming out of the box.

Here's the thing. I don't buy into hallucinogens as the keys to an alternate reality, the perception of true reality, or as wholesome catalysts for personal growth either spiritual, psychological, or physical, for reasons I stated before I went off the rails. Anyone selling that nonsense, including his holiness Terrance, is in the same column as Andrew Basiago, and Carlo Castaneda. That is to say they are full of shit, and are either truly ignorant, deceived, or have an agenda.

Do hallucinogens, marijuana, and other “controlled substances” have some medicinal and even recreational potential? Obviously. I've experienced that myself. However, trying to suggest to me that these things are not toxic, harmful, and extremely dangerous to those who ingest them just offends and insults my intelligence and personal experience.

The poor fools whose lives have been wasted and lost in the pursuit of drug induced experiences in my life tells me something no agenda laden youTube video or Terrance McKinna quote can counter.

Sparks – Found dead in his apartment swollen like a road-kill hog.

Paul – Self inflicted shotgun blast to the head.

G – Permanently handicapped.

Steve – Permanent facial tick.

H – Threw away an education. Struggles to overcome debilitating anxiety. Wonders why.

T – In constant pain, unemployable, destitute, hopeless, alone.

That's the short list.

So, are the wonderful stories about freedom, happiness, “expanded consciousness” and better living through chemistry promoted by the entheogen gurus actually true? I obviously don't think so, and for good reason. I'm done.
 
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The subject is wide and ancient, modern spook obsessions are a tiny grain of sand on the beach of history, at best. Paracelsus was good on what the words poison and toxic mean when talking about plants.
 
Toxicity can also be viewed as the overall effect on your life. The fact that a substance triggers the body's natural mechanisms to expell it, is also a good indication your body considers it toxic.

I'm experienced enough and disenchanted enough to have lost my rose colored drug culture glasses. Took me long enough.

Do hallucnigens provide a viable doorway into alternate or subtle realities or do they detune the brain into flights of fantasy and illusion?
 
Depending on the hallucinogen, and your guide, doctor etc. instead of fantasy and illusion there are some good personal life excavations that can be accomplished that allows some to face fears, past mistakes, whatever the albatross around their neck might be, and find a means, through their own unique processing environment, to confront these issues in a more measured manner and use that knowledge gained and apply it to their lives in a practical manner.

I think it's a substantially different than talk therapy where people often get very bogged down in their normal emotional responses to an event or a fear, whereas the hallucinogen can offer the opportunity to immediately practice disidentification on a much more profound level, to see themselves outside their familiar response to the issue and find a new approach to it. I agree that meditation can accomplish the same things, it just takes a lot longer to get good enough at meditating to be able to use it to monitor your emotional responses and to let go of whatever it is you are clinging to.

At the root of our contrary approaches to the value of hallucinogens i would say is that there are those who use them for fun and recreation, with no medical or personal gain, and they are just playing with the drug. That's the rose coloured drug culture glasses. Let's face it - the 60's had a lot of evil to it found underneath that happy hippie drug culture image we often think about. But it seems the more we study these powerful substances the more we recognize that there are some very positive attributes if they are used in a proper manner to help people in very profound ways. I think that there is some good medical purposes that can evolve out of further research into these substances.

As for drug culture in general, and I include alcohol and nicotine in that category, i do believe we took a wrong turn in pushing those two onto the masses. Alcohol has done little to enhance North America, and it's still taking us generations to get to Europe's zero tolerance when it comes to drinking and driving. What we know from Amsterdam and other areas that have legalized marijuana is that we don't have an epidemic of users, or masses of kids non-functional in class. Kids will become non-functional through a variety of means, but responsible recreational use of substances is something that we have not developed in our culture at all and that's a shame. I'm not advocating that everyone should be using anything, but in the Brave New World we live in, everyone chooses their own Soma, and i wish we had legal choices that were safe, non-addictive and non-violent.

But, if i had my choice, and i know many police who say the same, would i rather have the party crowd high on THC or loaded on alcohol? Well THC tends to keep people much more calm, less violent and more likely to sit on the couch than decide to take the car out for some drag racing and kill innocent civilians. Does that make any sense?

Should drugs be a source of spiritual development - no i think that this is a false promise, filled with ephemeral feelings, but for some, it is their first understanding of how we are all interconnected and that we are also a part of the land. Does this mean that these substances help to remove certain blinders, be they ignorance or social conditioning, well, yes, i do believe that this is true. Should they be in corner stores - no way. Could we educate people to understand these deeper truths without the aid of a drug - absolutely.
 
everything in moderation guys, we all like to get off our bollock's one way or the other, ive tried mushrooms, didnt work on me, just sank me deep into the armchair, acid, didnt work either, tried one tab, once, done nowt, the old wacky bakky, keeps me 'level' 30yrs and counting, and it is true, it does relieve pain, because i would of smacked several more people in the mouth, than i did if it wasnt for the pot letting me give them a fools pardon, drink wouldnt have, and they'd of copt a dig..

it takes some proper skunk to make my head buzz, grass just chills, ive never given a rats arris what others think about my pot usage, its my life to live, or shorten, we cant all be shrewd and clean, and live an extra boring decade..

all these class B recreational drugs are the same if you ask me, in the sense that you have to be 'open minded' to the experience, if like me you sit there waiting for something to happen, it doesnt, maybe get abit hot in the cheeks, and 'radox' relaxed, but that's about the be all, and end all of it, unless you WANT it to happen, then you will imagine it did.

theres a third option, which could produce strange results, because mentally you are 'unaware, being micky'd, i was slipped valium once, without knowing it, during a cash session of pool, but i knew i had been got, bought a fresh pint of guinness, told them they were ****s and sat out for an hour, with their money.
 
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