Food for thought...

[Christopher O'Brien]

...as for the perpetual suffering of The Cubs Fan, I can relate. Life long Cubs fan [are] completely unsure as to why.

Yes, I agree: belief in the Cub's ability to go to and then win the World Series is a paranormal phenomenon that could possibly give us insight into the true nature of conscious belief and the process adherent in the suspension of disbelief.

 

[tyder001]

Go Braves! Actually, I had a good weekend.

Bama 49
M.S.U. 7

Packers 10
Bears 3

Now, back to our regularly scheduled program.

 

[Facius_Cardan]

In courts of justice through-out the world the gold standard of evidence is multiple eye witness testimony. People make mistakes, yes , but not multiple witnesses. There is no reason for Christ's disciples to claim that they saw Him risen and yet there are hundreds of witnesses who say that he did just that. That is enough for me. That -and the feeling I get deep in my heart that Christ hears me and comforts me in times of need. You can make fun of Faith all you want but those of us who know better just laugh. You can deny it all you want but how do you explain the witnesses? That is what I don't understand about skeptics. The apostles were not starry eye believers who were in the habit of seeing things that were not there. They were hard nosed fisherman and pragmattic men of manual labor who had no illusions about the world and how it works. What they saw is what they saw and its up to the skeptics to explain it away. "But as for me and my house we will serve the Lord."

I have a deep respect for those who have a religious belief. That's a right that every human being has. Nevertheless, that can't stop me or anyone else from expressing doubts about the foundations of such credences. A court of law calls witnesses to stand before a judge and or jury and present their evidence there (and even in these conditions innocent people get convicted by mistake). The belief on the powers of Christ is based on witnesses that aren't available for further interrogation and their testimonies weren't collected by neutral chroniclers. They were incorporated many centuries later by the writers of the New Testament in their gospels. In short, the belief in the supernatural feats of Christ is based on what was written many years after the fact by deeply religious people who, by definition, don't have the objectivity that is mandatory to produce evidence. A person with a deep faith may take the biblical texts at face value and I respect that. What a believer must also respect is the opinion of those who disagree with the veracity of such claims, because no admissible evidence (to use the judiciary terminology) can be produced to support them in a rational, objective way. In my view belief is based on emotion and feeling (characteristics shared all Mankind, even atheists) and not on structured thought or experimental testability. That's a basic difference between religion and science - one that can hardly be reconciliated.

 

[tyder001]

While I have faith and don't think we are simply products of chance nor does brain chemisty define us a beings I do think Facius makes some good points. My beleif in Christ has undergone changes over the years. Matter of fact my "dogma" got ran over a long time ago. That said I do consider myself a spritiual seeker but not a guru (be they scientific or religious) seeker. I enjoy the Paracast and the back and forth on the forums. But, my beliefs (as well as my skepticsm) is hard won over a lifetime of expereince. So, I try to treat others with respect and if they can't do the same I don't need an ignore button. I can do that myself. Peace.

 

[CapnG]

In courts of justice through-out the world the gold standard of evidence is multiple eye witness testimony.

No it's not, it's the minimum standard requirement for proof of guilt. Fingerprints, DNA, video surveillance, etc etc, are the trump cards now.

As for the religious comments, that's your own affair. As far as I'm concerned people will believe what they want to believe. That doesn't make it true.

 

[tyder001]

The following is kind of a long article. It may not even apply here but since it deals with "facts" and the way which all of us "even scientist' try to prove truth. Well, I thought it might be interesting. The final paragraph was especially interesting for me because I have lately been reminded that there are "facts" and there is truth. They are not always the same thing.

The Decline Effect and the Scientific Method : The New Yorker

 

[Sloppy Joe]

I think to truly and honestly believe in something, you really have to do your own research on the topic. Sometimes the problem with believing in anything is that you're only hearing one side of the story; the supposed "science" that proves there are "no other alternatives". This leaves no room for the idea of the paranormal. However, when you study the science done by legitimate doctors, chemists and physicists who delve into the "paranormal", you start to understand that "alternatives" are completely possible. And therefore, the paranormal is possible. I think you'll find one commonality among believers and it's that we've done a ton of research, read hundreds of articles and decided for ourselves if these things are true. I'm sure you can ask any of us here to help provide you with articles that delve into the science of the matter (for whatever particular area of the paranormal that interests you), and we'll be able to pump out a bunch for you. But you'll really need to read through it all yourself in order to get the full gist of the research, that way you can make a fully informed decision on whether you should or shouldn't believe it.

 

[Cockapoo]

The belief on the powers of Christ is based on witnesses that aren't available for further interrogation and their testimonies weren't collected by neutral chroniclers. They were incorporated many centuries later by the writers of the New Testament in their gospels. In short, the belief in the supernatural feats of Christ is based on what was written many years after the fact by deeply religious people who, by definition, don't have the objectivity that is mandatory to produce evidence.

So what do you say to the sun miracle of Fatima? 30 to 60 thousand people witnessed the sun do miraculous things such as actually zig zag toward the earth my friend. There are more eye witnesses to miracles than you and your science can ever debunk and you must know that. You think you can pick and choose which eye witnesses to believe? You can't. The over-whelming prepondrance of eye witness evidence says that Jesus is Lord and that Mary His Mother weilds power in this unhappy world yet. We will live to see the evidence of UFO's being based in angelic and divine actions. This is a topic which should be more discussed than it is on this forum.

 

[Facius_Cardan]

We will live to see the evidence of UFO's being based in angelic and divine actions.

From what we've seen in previous cases, specially the ones involving close encounters, the nature of UFOs and the behavior of their occupants stands far away from what is usually considered as angelic or even divine. Unless, of course, you go with the pack that think that UFOs are demonic manifestations. Whatever option you choose (and you have the right to do it because I think we all respect freedom of speech and belief) you'll be adding an extra layer of religious supernatural tradition to the already shrouded UFO mystery. As a working hypothesis I'll stay away from it. Sure the phenomena has religious connotations, but those always come after the culture has appropriated the manifestations and tried to incorporate the facts into their religion and/or folklore.

 

[crabtown]

So what do you say to the sun miracle of Fatima? 30 to 60 thousand people witnessed the sun do miraculous things such as actually zig zag toward the earth my friend.

So far, you have no takers on your challenge: what do you say to the sun miracle of Fatima. It seems to me that many on this forum will willingly re-write the laws of physics to support the testimony of 3 or 4 witnesses, but will disregard the earnest testimony of 30,000 if it doesn't jibe with their pre-conceived notions. It's ALL religion if you have no proof! I put exactly the same amount of credence in Fatima as I do Rendlesham Forest. And for the same reasons.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

So what do you say to the sun miracle of Fatima? 30 to 60 thousand people witnessed the sun do miraculous things such as actually zig zag toward the earth my friend. There are more eye witnesses to miracles than you and your science can ever debunk and you must know that. You think you can pick and choose which eye witnesses to believe? You can't. The over-whelming prepondrance of eye witness evidence says that Jesus is Lord and that Mary His Mother weilds power in this unhappy world yet. We will live to see the evidence of UFO's being based in angelic and divine actions. This is a topic which should be more discussed than it is on this forum.

Are you putting us on? Please, please tell me you are. If not, i wish you the best of luck.

 

[tyder001]

Actually, the "Miracle of Fatima" would be better discussed on a Catholic forum than on a broad based paranormal board. Not being disrepectful but when it comes to matters of personal faith such as being a born again Chrisitan or a Muslim or a Catholic then you need to either be straight out and say you are working to convert people. Or don't "cast your pearls" and find a place of respectful conversation for your particular religion. Folks here are a wide ranging lot and they are not always respectful of the religious beliefs of others. That's o.k. but it's like trying to discuss Buddism with Pat Robertson. Another example is my love for college football. Now on occassion I will put out a little jab or score which is largely ignored (rightly so) But, when I really wanna discuss college football then I travel over to a sports forum that I post on. However, over there I don't post on the paranormal.

Just some thoughts. No problem if you don't agree.

 

[Facius_Cardan]

So what do you say to the sun miracle of Fatima? 30 to 60 thousand people witnessed the sun do miraculous things such as actually zig zag toward the earth my friend. There are more eye witnesses to miracles than you and your science can ever debunk and you must know that.

It's funny you mention Fátima because I'm Portuguese and know the case quite well (I've been in Fátima many times, as an interested visitor, but not as a christian). Actually, my great-grandmother was among the crowd there on October 13, 1917 and told me about what she saw back then. At the time the phenomenon was met with strong opposition by the authorities (Portugal was in a deep political and social turmoil after the Republic was created in 1910) and the three children (Jacinta, Lúcia and Francisco) were heavily and rather brutally interrogated by the police (they even tried to force them to change their testimonies). The right-wing regime that arrived in 1926, led by António de Oliveira Salazar (curiously enough he was born in the same city I did, Santa Comba Dão), had a strong connection to the catholic church and found in Fátima the perfect pillar on which to support its absolute power over the country in the decades to come. Basically, the manifestations observed there in 1917 became permanently imprinted on our culture through a religious appropriation: a miracle was born. I'll never deny that amazing and unexplained things happened there. But what was considered (and also manipulated) to be a miracle would nowadays be considered differently. My dear friend Joaquim Fernandes would later dwelve deep into the files and records of the time and find many similarities between what was observed back then and the reported characteristics of the contemporary UFO phenomenon.
If you want to take that as a miracle, be my guest, but the witnesses of Fátima in 1917 have a great difference from those of Christ's feats: they were interrogated at the time and we can get the verbatim records of everything they said. That makes them witnesses of a higher degree of reliability, because their testimonies were objectively kept and some of them are actually still alive. I understand that you feel the need to validate your beliefs, but that can never be done by mixing completely different things like the biblical views on Christ and the records of the Fátima occurences.

 

[pixelsmith]

So what do you say to the sun miracle of Fatima? 30 to 60 thousand people witnessed the sun do miraculous things such as actually zig zag toward the earth my friend. There are more eye witnesses to miracles than you and your science can ever debunk and you must know that. You think you can pick and choose which eye witnesses to believe? You can't. The over-whelming prepondrance of eye witness evidence says that Jesus is Lord and that Mary His Mother weilds power in this unhappy world yet. We will live to see the evidence of UFO's being based in angelic and divine actions. This is a topic which should be more discussed than it is on this forum.

the sun zig zagged towards the earth.... riiiight.... and i suppose you think a man named jesus died for our sins and rose from the dead? whatever floats yer boat...er... ark.

 

[Sloppy Joe]

Actually, the "Miracle of Fatima" would be better discussed on a Catholic forum than on a broad based paranormal board. Not being disrepectful but when it comes to matters of personal faith such as being a born again Chrisitan or a Muslim or a Catholic then you need to either be straight out and say you are working to convert people. Or don't "cast your pearls" and find a place of respectful conversation for your particular religion. Folks here are a wide ranging lot and they are not always respectful of the religious beliefs of others. That's o.k. but it's like trying to discuss Buddism with Pat Robertson. Another example is my love for college football. Now on occassion I will put out a little jab or score which is largely ignored (rightly so) But, when I really wanna discuss college football then I travel over to a sports forum that I post on. However, over there I don't post on the paranormal.

Well, I think because of the paranormal nature of the example, whether religious or not, it is still by definition 'paranormal'. So although you'll have some who agree it's a good example and others who don't, in either case, it's still paranormal.

If you want to take that as a miracle, be my guest, but the witnesses of Fátima in 1917 have a great difference from those of Christ's feats: they were interrogated at the time and we can get the verbatim records of everything they said. That makes them witnesses of a higher degree of reliability, because their testimonies were objectively kept and some of them are actually still alive. I understand that you feel the need to validate your beliefs, but that can never be done by mixing completely different things like the biblical views on Christ and the records of the Fátima occurences.

Actually, it's not that big of a difference. The reliability of the records in the New Testaments aren't as unreliable as you might believe. It's wrongly believed by most people that the majority of the New Testament was written hundreds of years after Christ's death. However, in actuality the 4 Gospels were written within the first 100 years of the first millennium AD. More specifically, anywhere between 60 AD and 100 AD. Not only that, but the writings of the Apostle Paul were actually written between 50 AD and 62 AD. Paul died in the mid-60s.

Additionally, all of the previously mentioned records fall within a time frame that's consistent with the the uprising of the Christian faith in the Middle East 2000 years ago. There's also an old Christian church in Jerusalem (if I remember right) where most of the original texts for the Bible are kept locked up. I'm talking about the original Hebrew, Greek and Latin manuscripts. And they've been carbon dated. So considering that good deal of the records of the New Testament were written within 50 years after Christ's death, a great number of the witnesses were also still alive to be interviewed by Mark, John and Paul.

Also, I recommend, if you have the time and desire, you read up about the reliability of 'oral tradition' in the ancient Middle East. This is also an important factor in determining the reliability of the written histories found in the Bible. After all, the Bible has led to the discovery of a great number of cities that were originally thought to be 'myth'. I consider this alone to be a testament to the reliability of the records. However, I don't base my judgment of the authenticity of the Bible on only this fact.

the sun zig zagged towards the earth.... riiiight.... and i suppose you think a man named jesus died for our sins and rose from the dead? whatever floats yer boat...er... ark.

What would be wrong with that? You're on a forum where people believe in aliens, ghosts, government conspiracies and the NWO. Aliens have not been proven to exist, only theorized based on our judgment of the probability for life elsewhere due to the vastness of the universe. Ghosts are immaterial, invisible 95% of the time and there is no science that can honestly tell you what makes a ghost what it is, let alone PROVE a ghost exists. And those government conspiracies, most of the time, are the result of paranoia instead of actual evidence.

Now, you may disagree with me, however, the belief in Jesus Christ being the son of God, coming to earth in the body of a man, and dying at the hands of men on a cross only to rise on the third day for the redemption of the sins of mankind is about as paranormal as it gets if you ask me. And then for thousands upon thousands of miracles to have been attributed to the power of God and of Christ out of a religion that accounts for a third of the world's population (making it the number one religion of the planet), I don't know.... I just think there's something to it.

 

[Facius_Cardan]

Additionally, all of the previously mentioned records fall within a time frame that's consistent with the the uprising of the Christian faith in the Middle East 2000 years ago. There's also an old Christian church in Jerusalem (if I remember right) where most of the original texts for the Bible are kept locked up. I'm talking about the original Hebrew, Greek and Latin manuscripts. And they've been carbon dated. So considering that good deal of the records of the New Testament were written within 50 years after Christ's death, a great number of the witnesses were also still alive to be interviewed by Mark, John and Paul.

But in the end, the interviewers themselves are of the utmost importance here. It's one thing to be interrogated by the police (as in the case of the Fátima witnesses and I must add that the authorities weren't at all interested in validating the occurence, but actively invested in discrediting the whole subject) and by followers of a religious faith. Basically what do police reports have in common with religious/theological texts? There may be truth and sincere testimonies behind them, but the way they are written and the purposes they serve are quite different. Please mind my words: I'll never deny or validate the "miraculous" events mentioned in the New Testament simply because I don't think we possess enough data to do so. Many feel that debating biblical subjects (or religious beliefs in general, for that matter) is fruitless because the believer will always believe and the non-believer will always disbelieve. I don't stand in any of those extremes, preferring to place myself in the middle as a curious and doubtful observer and investigator. Accepting or denying something are always things that one shouldn't do lightly, specially when dealing with such sensible themes.

 

[trainedobserver]

If you look into the history of UFOs in any depth you quickly see the religious connections and manipulations that permeate the subject. Vallee's Messengers of Deception should be required reading for anyone interested in the paranormal, UFOs, and the surrounding subculture.

I have a question for those making arguments for Christ's divinity which include things like, carbon dating, dates documents were written, early church history, and so forth. When you made your commitment to Christ and placed your faith in him for your salvation were you aware of those things you mention now and did they actually play any part in your initial belief? If you are like I was, and many people that I know, they did not.

 

[MacDaddy]

Actually, the "Miracle of Fatima" would be better discussed on a Catholic forum than on a broad based paranormal board

Actually, the miracle of Fatima is just as valid a topic for discussion as any other on this forum. Tens of thousands of people witnessed something which they say was paranormal. So deal with it. This board makes plenty of hay over incidents with a tiny fraction of the witnesses at Fatima, so what's the difference? The difference is that this forum is populated by religionists of another stripe -- and their faith is strong. Every bit of speculation about ETs, other dimensions, tricksters, ghosts, ESP, cryptos, MIBs and other nonsense for which there exists not a scrap of unambiguous evidence is given full weight on this forum. Stray too far from the party line and you will be ridiculed. But get a group of forest workers to say that a floating machine grabbed Travis Walton and then you've got something. And if your witnesses are military or law enforcement personnel, you are golden because these kinds of people can never make the same old human mistakes that mankind has been wired to make since before we climbed down from the trees for a better look around. Are there crazies and opportunists in the military? Bite your tongue! Stop being unpatriotic! Can an airline pilot make a mistake in interpreting what he sees? Give me a break! These guys are supermen with eyes of eagles and interpretive powers far beyond those of mortals.

Fatima. Wheeeee! Thank you Cockapoo, thank you very much.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Actually, the miracle of Fatima is just as valid a topic for discussion as any other on this forum. Tens of thousands of people witnessed something which they say was paranormal. So deal with it. This board makes plenty of hay over incidents with a tiny fraction of the witnesses at Fatima, so what's the difference? The difference is that this forum is populated by religionists of another stripe -- and their faith is strong. Every bit of speculation about ETs, other dimensions, tricksters, ghosts, ESP, cryptos, MIBs and other nonsense for which there exists not a scrap of unambiguous evidence is given full weight on this forum. Stray too far from the party line and you will be ridiculed. But get a group of forest workers to say that a floating machine grabbed Travis Walton and then you've got something. And if your witnesses are military or law enforcement personnel, you are golden because these kinds of people can never make the same old human mistakes that mankind has been wired to make since before we climbed down from the trees for a better look around. Are there crazies and opportunists in the military? Bite your tongue! Stop being unpatriotic! Can an airline pilot make a mistake in interpreting what he sees? Give me a break! These guys are supermen with eyes of eagles and interpretive powers far beyond those of mortals.

Fatima. Wheeeee! Thank you Cockapoo, thank you very much.

I don't see a problem with the Fatima miracle being discussed here. It's just another bizarre event that probably has a logical explanation but people want to think it's something special. I have no issue with people believing it's true. I used to think it was valid, along with everything else in the Catholic religion. I no longer go to church or pray or anything like that, but I have no issues with Catholic traditions and ceremonies, even though I don't follow them. I mean I got married in a Catholic church and I had my daughter baptized, and I have a godchild.

 

[tyder001]

Ah thank a'h wuz misunnerstood! Actually, I didn't make my point very well. So, let me say this. I absolutely agree and personally find more reason to believe in Christ than I do the space bros. But, that's a different topic and one I don't really want to (personally) discuss here. But, what I meant to say was not that we should not discuss Fatima. I meant (and didn't articulate it very well) that if you are very sincere in your religion and want to have a respectful and thoughtful discussion about your faith...that this is not a good forum for that. But, I could be wrong about that also. I really did not mean to sound as if I thought paranormal discussion of religious events were out of line. I have my own faith and I don't bring it here. Not becuase it doens't stand up. Matter of fact after reading some of the athestic and u.f.o. related post on this board over the years I think it stands up very well. I don't bring it here because this isn't a religous board and people will get their feelings hurt and even get their most sacred beliefs trashed or at least have mud slung at them. I also, don't bring any political dogma (liberal, conservative,ect.) But, that doesn't mean somebody else shouldn't or can't. So, anyway I'm sorry because I don't think I articulated what I was trying to say very well. I don't even think I'm doing a very good job of it now.

Peace.