George Adamski

[David Biedny]

In defense of this 1965 footage I would like to point out something unusual which is clearly visible. Adamski's alleged spacecraft has 3 ball-shaped objects underneath, I think most here know what I'm talking about. One of those ball shaped objects, the one on the right, is moving up and down like it is retracting in the ship. Have a look at the footage a couple of times. Does that support the idea that this is a model or does it rule out that this is a model and how could such thing be done at the time

TX, in my opinion, the visual effect you describe is the result of a crappy model part flopping around while it's being waved in the air.

dB

 

[TerraX]

TX, in my opinion, the visual effect you describe is the result of a crappy model part flopping around while it's being waved in the air.
dB

Oh. (lol) Just a curiousity here but wouldn't a crappy model part flop sideways?

 

[David Biedny]

TX, in my opinion, the visual effect you describe is the result of a crappy model part flopping around while it's being waved in the air.
dB

Oh. (lol) Just a curiousity here but wouldn't a crappy model part flop sideways?

If it's on the inside of the model, jutting out from the bottom, it would more likely flop up and down, especially given the motion I'm seeing in the video. That's not to say that if they shook it hard enough, the crappy model part would start to do the sideways flop.

dB

 

[TerraX]

David, I listened to the paracast broadcast nr.5 where you and your brother comment on your sighting in Venezuela. You both claimed that at a young age you witnessed a large cigar-shaped object in the sky for a couple of minutes which was also observed by your parents and other people on the street.
If I'm permitted to make this connection, Adamski and those people around him also claimed to have witnessed a large cigar-shaped objects with a craft apparently disembarking from it. I'm thinking about the possibility that there maybe similarities between your sighting and those witnesses in the Adamski case. Feel free to decline answering but did you see something similar to this?
(The alleged cigar-shaped 'motherships', scroll down halfway.)
http://www.rr0.org/Documents/Livres/Adamski/1955_InsideTheSpaceShips/

 

[David Biedny]

TX,

I've seen those photos before, but thanks for that link, lots of info there...

But nothing paranormal.

The cigar object in those photos is a model, and here's why:

The object we saw in Caracas was absolutely perfect in terms of shape and symmetry. The object in these photos is neither - the ends are different sizes, the slope of the tapers is inconsistent, it looks crudely fabricated.

Then there are the light disks that are claimed to have emerged, in the subsequent pictures.

The scale of the discs compared to the cigar is completely wrong - the discs we saw emerge from cigar ship were dwarfed by the size of the main vehicle, and emerged from a distinct rectangular opening - bathed with light - in the bottom of the craft. The discs we saw were metallic, and did not emit light, as do those in these pictures. The way that the lighted discs are flat against the camera POV is also completely off, and consistent with these images being faked.

Then there's the issue of the exposure of this picture, which makes the cigar object look completely black against a lighter sky in the first picture, and still completely black against the mysteriously darker sky in the subsequent 3 photos (all four are claimed to have been shot in rapid succession, which seems highly unlikely, given the tremendous change in the brightness of the background). There is no effect of atmospheric density which would put the cigar object at a distance from the camera, especially if he claimed to have taken these pictures through a six inch telescope. In my estimation, this was a small scale object that was relatively close to the camera.

It looks very little like what we saw in Caracas.

dB

 

[Gene Steinberg]

The Adamski Expose issue is not a hoax, and Jim is not the only person writing content for it. Read the issue, and then we'll talk.

Sorry Gene, I don't feel obliged to purchase Moseley's and Pflock's book since a lot of controversy surrounding Adamski's tales and conduct is visible in other books and on the internet by various people. I do find it a little awkward that you insist I should read Moseley's book in order to continue the conversation. On the internet there's a lot to be found on Moseley, Pflock and Barker including their past CIA affiliations. Makes me wonder in turn how far you must look for government interest in the UFO field. Here's an interview with Moseley where he comments about his carreer in the field. I suspect that Barker's 'charming' poetry also doesn't go well with the 'politically correct' but that's not what these guys are about, right?
http://www.elfis.net/tem/J. Moseley.html

Moseley;
"A: 1964. At this time there was a man in Boston with a radio and T.V. show named Bob Kennedy (not THE Bob Kennedy of course.) I appeared on his show a few times, and they were also working with speaker's bureau who booked Donald Keyhoe to speak about the saucer stuff. They also booked the college lecture circuit and Keyhoe was starting to charge too much. This is where I really stepped in some shit. Bob Kennedy gave my name to this bureau and since I hated Keyhoe anyway, this was the best luck of all. He was charging too much, so I started getting his gigs. I would have gone for free just to knock Keyhoe off the lecture circuit. (Stanton) Friedman hadn't come along yet, and he didn't push me off the circuit 'till years later. I did over a hundred colleges and got well paid for it for the time. Saucer News circulation shot up to about 10,000 for awhile, and I got on all kinds of shows, etc. I finally had to hire a staff to keep up, including Tim Beckley, who worked there for a couple of years. This was all because of the marsh gas! Then in the early '70s, Friedman came along and did to me what I had done to Keyhoe. Actually, he was vicious about it. He would find out which colleges I was lecturing at and call them up and try to get them to knock me off and book him. He had the degree and the beard and I didn't. The colleges kept calling me to inform me what he had been doing--sometimes more than once to the same places."

Understand that I have known Moseley through bad and good times, for over 40 years. The Adamski Expose Issue, which he only wrote part of, was a very serious effort. You don't have to buy the book in order to read this material. There are libraries, and maybe someone has it at hand. I would even consider making a copy for you and send it to you as a PDF file if I have time in the next few days. I'm sure Jim won't mind.

As to alleged past CIA affiliations, please, let's not go there. Jim was very anti-establishment in those days.

 

[TerraX]

Understand that I have known Moseley through bad and good times, for over 40 years. The Adamski Expose Issue, which he only wrote part of, was a very serious effort. You don't have to buy the book in order to read this material. There are libraries, and maybe someone has it at hand. I would even consider making a copy for you and send it to you as a PDF file if I have time in the next few days. I'm sure Jim won't mind. As to alleged past CIA affiliations, please, let's not go there. Jim was very anti-establishment in those days.

Hi Gene. No rush with PDF file. Going on holiday next week so might not even have time to read it and make comments about it for a month. From book reviews I already know that Moseley took a hard and critical look at the Adamski case and I have no doubts he picked up more then a few faults. Adamski labeled himself as a 'professor' while he was not. Adamski admitted bootlegging wine during the prohibition period using his religious sect 'the Royal Order of Tibet'. And I'm sure the quote he made to the young Ray Stanford will surface in Moseley's book. Later on in time Adamski wasn't even trusted by his inner most circle and those that knew him from the early days turned their backs on him. But strangely, most of them stuck to their original claims.
As for any CIA involvement, I can't make a hard case about it but it's ammo for the conspiracy theorists when people in ufology worked for that agency at one time in their lives. I don't think Moseley was working for the goverment, he's kind of a rebel in many regards and I doubt his personality would thrive in a deadly serious culture as the CIA. With the recently passed away Pflock however I have my doubts. Barker seems to have a lead a very troubled life.

 

[TerraX]

George Adamski - cigar shaped crafts

TX, I've seen those photos before, but thanks for that link, lots of info there...
It looks very little like what we saw in Caracas. dB

Hi David,
While from your point of view the photographs don't make much of an impression I would like to point out that there have been people going on record that they saw a large cigar shaped object just like yourself and that includes people in the Adamski case. To be blunt, your experience isn't any better then theirs. Now I realise that eyewitness testimony within 'contact cases' is sometimes questioned and for the more skeptically inclined it ammounts up to very little which personally I find a bit unfair since if the same person sighting a UFO would indentify the 'perp' who stole the skeptics car, the skeptic would be more then happy to use that persons observation in order to get his property back. Often people set the standard where it suits them.
To get back to the Adamski case, it wasn't just one sighting in the desert to which 6 people signed an affadavit. (On a sidenote, I found Gene's comments on that somewhat peculiar since now you have a notarized document and it's still questioned.) Even persons close to Adamski reported having their own sighting(s) when Adamski was nowhere near them. There were many more sightings, including those of the Adamski 'scoutcraft' which has been seen and photographed in other countries around the world by dozens of people. Through my research I must conclude that there was something happening at the time. Here's one such report from Timothy Good;

"Structured UFO Encountered by Three Police Officers

On a January night in 1978 Sergeant Tony Dodd and Police Constable Alan Dale were driving in the vicinity of Cononley, near Skipton, Yorkshire, in their official line of duty, when a strange aerial machine came into view. 'We were going down a country lane,' Sergeant Dodd told me, 'and you know what it's like up there - it was dark - and the only light you've got is your headlights. Suddenly the road in front of us lit up. Of course, the immediate reaction is, where's the light coming from? But it was coming from above. We stopped the car, looked up, and there was this thing coming from our right to our left.' The object was about 100 feet away, moving at less than 40 mph. 'It was glowing; like a bright white incandescent glow, and it came right over our heads,' the police sergeant recalled. 'The whole unit was glowing. It was as if the metal of what this thing was made of was white hot. And there were these
three great spheres underneath, like huge ball-bearings - three of them equally placed around it. There was a hollow area underneath and like a skirting around the bottom, but these things protruded below that. 'It was absolutely awe-inspiring to see it. I don't know how to explain it to you - it was such a
beautiful-looking thing. It seemed to have portholes round the dome - an elongated domed area. And what stood out more than anything else was the coloured lights dancing round on the outside of the skirt at the bottom... which gave the visual impression that it was rotating. Now whether the thing was
going round, or whether it was just the lights that were going round and give that impression, I don't know. I would say it was the lights that were going round because, when you were looking at the portholes, they didn't seem to be going round in a circle as you would have expected.' The object was completely soundless. 'When the thing had passed over our heads it sort of went into the distance then suddenly appeared to come down: there's a big wood to our left, right on a distant hillside, and it appeared to go down in that wood,' said Sergeant Dodd, who added that a third police officer had seen the object. 'We carried on along this road and as we got towards the village we could see these lights coming towards us from the other direction - it was another police car. We stopped, and he said, "I've just been watching this damn great UFO, and it seems to have come right down somewhere over here!"''

The three spheres seen under the craft have been observed in a number of incidents, most notably by the much vilified George Adamski, whose photographs and film of this type of craft taken in 1952 and 1965 have been ridiculed and denounced as hoaxes. I have spent enough time with Tony Dodd to know he is completely sincere, and the fact that a highly unusual and silent machine was seen by three police officers must surely count as compelling evidence in the search for proof of UFO reality."

Timothy Good - Above Top Secret (page 115-116)

 

[TerraX]

To Terrax
Check this out man
The Newest In Regard To Matters Of Extraterrestrials, UFOs, Pleiadiens/Plejarens, Contacts, Abductions, Examination Contacts and Implants
424th Contact, Saturday, June 17th 2006, 5:03 pm
Now you'd realize the futile efforts of so many liers who purported to have had contact with ET's, who congregate around such forums dishing out their lies, they know who they are.

*Burp* Yeah, I saw it. Good to see you handle it in an objective manner, ....not.

 

[TerraX]

To Terrax And how do you come by such a negative assessment??
As if you have given one ounce of thought before you made up your mind as to the validity of the staements in the contact note 424th. Afterall you only saw it as you claimed, but have you really thought things through

I've thought of many scenarios. Weighed this against that. Did probability assessments and so on. So when I read contact note 424 I saw many items which previously were visible in prior contact notes. But there were some changes. Dan Fry, Kenneth Arnold. First they were 'genuine' according to Meier but now they're untrustworthy to put it diplomaticly. This again proves my point that Meier is just a nasty debunker who wants to become the authority on many matters. He can't stand anyone getting even close to his own material. He's PATHETIC.

 

[David Biedny]

George Adamski - cigar shaped crafts

TX, I've seen those photos before, but thanks for that link, lots of info there...
It looks very little like what we saw in Caracas. dB

Hi David,
While from your point of view the photographs don't make much of an impression I would like to point out that there have been people going on record that they saw a large cigar shaped object just like yourself and that includes people in the Adamski case. To be blunt, your experience isn't any better then theirs. Now I realise that eyewitness testimony within 'contact cases' is sometimes questioned and for the more skeptically inclined it ammounts up to very little which personally I find a bit unfair since if the same person sighting a UFO would indentify the 'perp' who stole the skeptics car, the skeptic would be more then happy to use that persons observation in order to get his property back. Often people set the standard where it suits them.

TX, you asked me what I thought about the presented video/photographic evidence, and I offered my opinion. I am aware that others have indeed seen similar cigar-shaped craft as I've reported, I certainly don't claim to be the only witness to such a sighting. In fact, as you can see in our most popular thread on here at the moment, hundreds, possibly thousands of other people in Caracas shared in the sighting. That cited Adamski video/photo evidence I looked at is clearly fabricated, in my professional opinion. I'm not convinced by the other evidence in the case, and I haven't looked at the notarized statement. I don't feel the case merits close scutiny, there are much more interesting situations to pursue. But feel free to uncover and analyze more of the Adamski case, you are definitely motivated and immersed in the topic matter, I respect your dedication.

Best,

dB

 

[TerraX]

George Adamski - cigar shaped crafts

TX, you asked me what I thought about the presented video/photographic evidence, and I offered my opinion. I am aware that others have indeed seen similar cigar-shaped craft as I've reported, I certainly don't claim to be the only witness to such a sighting. In fact, as you can see in our most popular thread on here at the moment, hundreds, possibly thousands of other people in Caracas shared in the sighting. That cited Adamski video/photo evidence I looked at is clearly fabricated, in my professional opinion. I'm not convinced by the other evidence in the case, and I haven't looked at the notarized statement. I don't feel the case merits close scutiny, there are much more interesting situations to pursue. But feel free to uncover and analyze more of the Adamski case, you are definitely motivated and immersed in the topic matter, I respect your dedication.
Best,
dB

Hi David. Thank you for your tolerance in this matter and yes I'm somewhat dedicated to the case partly because I've seen a bit more with my own eyes... Nonetheless I wish to point out again that I can't defend every aspect of the Adamski case and that even I don't buy everything Adamski said. It's certainly possible that Adamski had a sighting with friends present and that he talked to an occupant from a UFO. Maybe it was just a conversation like 'hello' and at the end 'you take it easy dude', and Adamski fabricating stuff from there on. However, after reading much material and claims by people I'm suspecting that there was more going on but suspicions aren't facts.

Perhaps an interesting guest for an upcoming show on the Paracast would be Glenn Steckling. Glenn is head of the George Adamski Foundation which holds all the copyrights of the Adamski case. While I don't know Glenn personally I don't think he's "the Horn type". From what I have read on the internet regarding Glenn Steckling is that he had sightings himself so it might be an interesting show. Just an idea.

 

[ufoman]

Only two votes in the poll.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Only two votes in the poll.

Yes, my friend. Perhaps Adamski is very much yesterday's news. After all, he died several decades ago, although some may perhaps want to resurrect his memory with more fondness than the matter deserves.

Actually, my opinion of the matter is a little generous too. From my readings on the subject, I gather Adamski wanted to spread certain beliefs about love and peace and felt that having them emerge from the mouths of advanced alien beings would provide a higher level of credibility.

 

[TerraX]

Yes, my friend. Perhaps Adamski is very much yesterday's news. After all, he died several decades ago, although some may perhaps want to resurrect his memory with more fondness than the matter deserves.

Personally I think that some people in the past did their utmost best to make sure that there was nothing of fondness to remember him by. These people just look for mistakes and unlike baseball, one strike and the contactee is out. I'm not saying Gene that you belong to that category but you're not really a 'believer' either. I think both David and you steer towards having physical evidence in abundance and have high requirements for acceptance. But despite of the numerous sightings and the government not really cooperating, it doesn't seem to work that way.

Actually, my opinion of the matter is a little generous too. From my readings on the subject, I gather Adamski wanted to spread certain beliefs about love and peace and felt that having them emerge from the mouths of advanced alien beings would provide a higher level of credibility.

I would say Adamski was part of a bigger whole. There's no denying the religious aspect of his material but that wasn't the only thing there. You musn't forget that during those days religious influence in normal households was at the order of the day. Personally I think that there was a lot more going on with even the US government showing interest.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Personally I think that some people in the past did their utmost best to make sure that there was nothing of fondness to remember him by. These people just look for mistakes and unlike baseball, one strike and the contactee is out. I'm not saying Gene that you belong to that category but you're not really a 'believer' either. I think both David and you steer towards having physical evidence in abundance and have high requirements for acceptance. But despite of the numerous sightings and the government not really cooperating, it doesn't seem to work that way.

Actually, my opinion of the matter is a little generous too. From my readings on the subject, I gather Adamski wanted to spread certain beliefs about love and peace and felt that having them emerge from the mouths of advanced alien beings would provide a higher level of credibility.

I would say Adamski was part of a bigger whole. There's no denying the religious aspect of his material but that wasn't the only thing there. You musn't forget that during those days religious influence in normal households was at the order of the day. Personally I think that there was a lot more going on with even the US government showing interest.

I'm not sure I understand you here, but the U.S. government had no interest in George Adamski, and most people regarded him as just another kook.

 

[TerraX]

I'm not sure I understand you here, but the U.S. government had no interest in George Adamski, and most people regarded him as just another kook.

Some people said that they saw Adamski carrying a government ordenance card, which in theory would have given him access to restricted areas. Others said that he carried a priviliged passport and some have even said that a person(s) followed Adamski on the lecture circuit. Now I realise that this is circumstancial at best and not hard evidence but if those documents were there then that might suggest Adamski was in league somehow with the government, allbeit a messenger or an agent working for the government. The FBI certainly had a file on Adamski although what wasn't blacked out didn't really support Adamski. If (emphasis) Adamski did have some kind of contacts wouldn't the intelligence community want to stay close to the heart of the matter? I know, it's theoretical. Here's a small chapter from Timothy Good's book 'Above Top Secret', which doesn't make it any clearer.

"In 1954 researcher Thomas Eickhoff made an attempt to bring UFO contactee George Adamski to Federal Court so that the latter could prove by use of the testimony of the two scientists who Adamski
claimed had witnessed one of his alleged trips into space that he really had been aboard a space ship. This would also have given the Government their oppertunity to press the case, Eickhoff reasoned,
and thereby, when Adamski was (presumably) unable to produce the scientists, they could prosecute him for 'an act of fraud committed by illegal use of the U.S. mail system'.

My lawyer [said Eickhoff] suggested a letter of enquiry to be sent to a certain agency in Washington [the CIA]... and called me to his office. He had received the answer which also concluded instructions for all
parties concerned to deny any connections with the statement [which] came from a Mr [Allen Dulles] of a certain top agency in Washington. Said [Dulles]: 'Yes, I did have a case for Federal Court.' However
[he said], by use of the injunction if necessary he would prevent anyone from testifying in court concerning this book [Inside the Space Ships] because maximum security exists concerning the subject of UFOs.

Allen Welsh Dulles was Director of the CIA (DCI) from 1953 to 1961, and following a FOIA request to the Agency in 1984 I was sent a copy of a letter from Dulles to the Honorable Gordon H. Scherer, House of Representatives, Washington DC, dated 4 October 1955:

"The questions which Mr. Eickhoff has raised in his letter to you are largely outside of the jurisdiction of this Agency. Section 102(d) of the National Security Act of 1947 provides that the CIA shall have no
police, subpoena, law-inforcement powers, or internal security. Insofar as Mr. Eickhoff appears interested in pursuing the problem of mail fraud in connection with George Adamski's book entitled 'Inside
The Space Ships', it would appear to be a problem of law-enforcement, from which we are specifically barred by statute. CIA, as a matter of policy, does not comment on the truth or falsity of material contained in books or other published statements, and therefore it is not in a position to comment on Mr. Adamski's book or the authenticity of the pictures which it contains. The subject mater of mr. Adamski's book would appear to be more in the jurisdiction of the Department of Defense and the National Science Foundation."

The CIA was unable to locate any further documents pertaining to Adamski. Possibly more exist, possibly not, but certainly the FBI had an extensive file on him, and these documents have now been released
under the FOIA.

In 1956 a 'Memorandum for the Record' was written by the Chief of the CIA Office of Scientific Intelligence (OSI) Applied Science Division, W.E. Lexow, confirming that the ASD had now assumed responsibility within OSI for 'Non-Conventional Types of Air Vehicles'. Files would be maintained in ASD on 'incoming raw reports where, in our judgement, the subject matter may provide information bearing on foreign weapons' system research or development'. Reports in this category were to be forwarded to the 'Fundemental Science Area' for review, and those which did not fit would be forwarded to the FSA for retention or destruction, and reports 'which fit under none of the above will be destroyed'. The memorandum continued (Reference 2):

e. A chronological file of all OSI correspondence and action taken in connection with the United States U.F.O. program will be maintained by ASD.
f. A file of unfinished intelligence reports published by members of the United States intelligence community on U.F.O. will be maintained in ASD.

The Applied Science Division was anxious to avoid accumulation of reports 'which experience and Reference 2 have shown cannot be analyzed in a manner useful to OSI in carrying out its mission...It
has been recommended that the raw intelligence and the obsolete finished reports on UFO now filed in Electronics Division will be destroyed.'

In early November 1957, according to researcher Brad Sparks, Congress secretly pressed the CIA for an evaluation of a nationwide UFO 'flap' then in progress. The OSI issued instructions to the Office of
Operations' Contact Division to have its field officers collect UFO data for the ensuing one-week period.The results of this investigation are yet to be declassified."

 

[Gene Steinberg]

I'm not sure I understand you here, but the U.S. government had no interest in George Adamski, and most people regarded him as just another kook.

Some people said that they saw Adamski carrying a government ordenance card, which in theory would have given him access to restricted areas. Others said that he carried a priviliged passport and some have even said that a person(s) followed Adamski on the lecture circuit. Now I realise that this is circumstancial at best and not hard evidence but if those documents were there then that might suggest Adamski was in league somehow with the government, allbeit a messenger or an agent working for the government. The FBI certainly had a file on Adamski although what wasn't blacked out didn't really support Adamski. If (emphasis) Adamski did have some kind of contacts wouldn't the intelligence community want to stay close to the heart of the matter? I know, it's theoretical. Here's a small chapter from Timothy Good's book 'Above Top Secret', which doesn't make it any clearer.

I didn't repeat the full quote from Good's book, but I understand the point.

Personally, I think any real government interest in Adamski would have been part of a general interest in notable figures involved in the UFO mess.

Of course there was a certain hoax, the infamous Straith letter, perpetrated by Jim Moseley and Gray Barker during a long weekend of drunken stupors. But let's not go there.

 

[TerraX]

I didn't repeat the full quote from Good's book, but I understand the point.
Personally, I think any real government interest in Adamski would have been part of a general interest in notable figures involved in the UFO mess.
Of course there was a certain hoax, the infamous Straith letter, perpetrated by Jim Moseley and Gray Barker during a long weekend of drunken stupors. But let's not go there.

LOL, ok. I wont deny Adamski had a flair for the dramatic and Moseley&Co certainly exposed that.

 

[Mindsky]

It's rare that I see someone who buys into Adamski's stuff.

It's one of the worst hoaxes of all time I think.