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Good article on did Jesus exsist?

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tyder001

Paranormal Adept
Religion News Service | Faith | Doctrine & Practice | Bart Ehrman’s new portrayal of Jesus is surprisingly sympathetic

I've often said the divinity of Christ is a matter of personal faith and journey. But, the silly denial of the man himself is just ignorance. There is more evidence for the exsistence of Jesus (as a Rabbi or teacher) than the exsistence of Shakesphere. Anyway, I've heard this battered about here and thought I'd share the article. By the way the author is an agnostic so he's not trying to convert you.
 
But, the silly denial of the man himself is just ignorance.

You'll have to pardon me Steve. but if anyone actually thinks that the gospels in any way reflect the true events of an actual person's life (no matter what name you want to use) it is they who are either silly, ignorant, or both. To believe that actually requires religious faith in the miraculous nature of the Bible.

Some basic questions have to be answered. The most important being, "The gospels were written when and by whom?" Followed closely by, "Was their original intent to be that of historical records?" Outside of the Bible and two strained and suspicious references is there any evidence to support the existence of the Jesus character as he is presented to us today? I've answered these questions already for myself and it doesn't lead me to think there was a such a person.
 
I would recommend reading the book. He is a well respected scholar and is not a "believer" at all. Actually, I agree with you on some aspects Trained. I know just from my own little life that a "book" or a series of books couldn't capture my whole life experience or the essence of who and what I am. However, this wasn't meant as a religious debate. This is a direct and well researched study into the question of a person who walked the earth. My personal opinion is that Christ is indeed divine. But, I'm a heretic and think that I'm also an expression of divinity (for want of a better word.) But, that isn't what this is about.
 
they who are either silly, ignorant, or both.

Statements like that are honestly not worthy of you or at least the intellect that I have come to know. You may not agree (I don't) with believers in the inerrant and literal letter of the "bible." But, you can be very educated and intelligent and in no way "silly" and be a Christian or a Hindu or a Buddist or an atheist or anybody or anything else. The bible certainly isn't literal but to say it in no way reflects reality of the people writing? That seems kind of silly to me. Of course it reflects reality it just doesn't all ring literally true to me. I also believe that modern fiction "reflects" reality but that doesn't mean I worship Stephen King. I think he is a tremendous talent but I don't worship him. :D
 
Just read my last post. Let me say that of course I don't "know" you Trained. But, you do seem to be fairly intelligent :p At least I've found our back and forths to be provocative and I don't think a stupid person could engage my interest that much in a subject. But, we can only "know" so much from internet back and forth. Which is great cause at the end of the day we still maintain our own space and worldview. As always, good to talk to you. :cool:
 
Steve, I was replying to your comment that "But, the silly denial of the man himself is just ignorance." I took exception to that because I am a silly Jesus denier and I know why and it isn't because I'm ignorant of the arguments or literature on either side. The serious consideration of this subject was a life changing thing for me since I had bought into the reality of Jesus of Nazareth hook, line, and sinker.

The simple matter of the fact is that the Jesus portrayed in the Bible must be a work of fiction unless you get behind some sort of miraculous origin for the Bible. We can pontificate about this until we are blue in the face or we can just go with what can be proven and what stands up to logic.

The Bible and the books that make it up are not what they are commonly portrayed to be by the cults who worship it. This is undeniable. Consequently even people who aren't in these cults tend to take their presentation of the writers and content of the books if not the literal interpretation of it mainly from a false basis of authority and well laziness. Most people, even believers, cannot be bothered with sorting through it.

The most reasonable and reliable way to think about it is that these are allegorical tales removed from their cultural and temporal context and superimposed on a religion established centuries later. The facts bore that out to me personally as I did my research. I've said this before and I'll probably say it a thousand more times. It's like Dr. Price said, and I'm paraphrasing, "You are essentially reading another era's comic books and interpreting them as history!" That explains the situation in a nutshell.

Is it silly to be a Scientologist? In 2000 years which L. Ron Hubbard will be considered to have existed do you think? The true one or the one you can read about at the cult's website? They are not the same guy by any stretch of the imagination. L.Ron will have the advantage of actual photographs that reportedly show him engaging in the fantasy life he constructed for himself. The character of Jesus is fundamentally different than the fictional L. Ron in that I do not think there ever was a single historical figure on which it based. That was my finding anyway. Silly as I am.

B.T.W. I've known about this guy and owned one of his books for years now. Your appeal to authority in this case is misplaced. Or were you talking about the Bible? I own and have read from front to back several translations and made a study of the thing for decades. So, I've read it if that's what you referring to.

P.S. What do you mean by "divine?"

However, this wasn't meant as a religious debate.

Honestly now that is pretty damn funny. What was it meant to encourage then?
 
I wade into this not with big strides splashing water every which way, but gingerly and with great trepidation, with my big toe only, and attacking no one. This topic is so fraught nowadays (nothing new) with social issues and with presumptions about what God considers sin, that it's sometimes best left alone. The only point I want to make is that the "historicity" of Jesus, his actual walking, talking, living, human existence is not something that is precluded by rational thought and study. In fact, I'd rachet it up a notch and say that Jesus's miracles, exorcisms, and healings are not only subject to such hard rationality, they have been, and in a way that transcends the so-called "search for the historical Jesus" that's been going on for centuries and popularized in the nineties and beyond by the Jesus Seminar. I will say that I am deeply Christian, and also a hard rationalist. I was brought up in a very liberal denomination, and events in my life have motivated me for decades to study Jesus, and yes, he certainly can be studied, and yes, even without the emotion, though I won't deny that emotion can be totally denied while studying him. I leave the eschatology and christology to others, though that is perhaps more subject to study of doctrine. I think you leave behind and ignore a very exciting and very rich field of scholarly research without exploring how scholars, yes scholars, have studied Jesus's miracles, healings, and exorcisms with a hard critical eye, using linguistic, geographical, social, historical, and just plain other fascinating methods that are not fanciful. As a quick aside I will say that Bart mentioned above is a lightweight here. And by that I don't mean that the many others I have read are pretentious heavyweights that only pretentious Kim reads, quite the contrary. To end this I would recommend a superb history of Christianity entitled Christianity, the First Three Thousand Years, by Diarmaid MacCulloch, Professor of the History of the Church at Oxford University. For true scholarly examination of Jesus's healings and exorcisms, there are many, but one that stands out for me is John P. Meier's A Marginal Jew, the second volume dealing dispassionately with Jesus's healings and exorcisms. And it is a great mistake, by the way, to summarily dismiss Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John as historical sources, or their validity as such. Anyway, enough from me on this, and I in no way am addressing this to anyone in particular, or mean it in any way an attack personal or otherwise.
 

I find the similaritys between the egyptian and other Storys and the jesus story suspicious.
I think there is a good case to be made that its the same story.

Also the romans were mad keen about record keeping, yet they dont mention him

  1. There is a complete absence of evidence for the events described - no authors mention the phenomenal events that supposedly occurred at the time of Jesus' resurrection, and, there are no records of Jesus being crucified in the first place. This is despite there being multiple historians of the time who kept extensive records of events in that era, especially of unusual events and the misdeeds of rulers. The only records we have are those written by Christians themselves, the Gospels. And within each of those gospels nearly all details of the crucifixion and resurrection are different. Very important details, such as Jesus' last words, are so different that it appears they are simply being made up by the authors. The earliest Christians did not know simple details such as where Jesus was buried.
  2. Most the details of Jesus' death and rebirth are similar to the existing myths surrounding god-men in that era. The similarities to the Christs of other pagan religions are shockingly detailed, so much so that early Church fathers had to defend themselves against pagan critics who said that the stories of Jesus were simply pagan stories with new names.
 
I find the similaritys between the egyptian and other Storys and the jesus story suspicious.
I think there is a good case to be made that its the same story.

I don't think you have to go back that far to get to the point where it becomes obvious that things are not as they are presented. Once the break was made and an objective view of the claims of tribal cults and state established religions were made, I found I could no longer justify a belief in the person of Jesus Christ, the existence of the god Yahweh, or the historical accuracy of the Bible. Once it was done it was done. The scales fell from my eyes as it says.

Also, I have it on good authority that god hates emoticons. She thinks they are silly.
 
The bible itself is another can of worms so to speak, Again a case can be made a lot of it is rehashed myths from earlier, and for the alleged perfect word of god it contains so many self contradicting passages that the conclusion ive drawn is given those glaring contradictions its more likely the imperfect word of man, than the perfect word of god

Small sample

. God is satisfied with his works
Gen 1:31
God is dissatisfied with his works.
Gen 6:6
2. God dwells in chosen temples
2 Chron 7:12,16
God dwells not in temples
Acts 7:48
3. God dwells in light
Tim 6:16
God dwells in darkness
1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2
4. God is seen and heard
Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
Ex 24:9-11
God is invisible and cannot be heard
John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16
5. God is tired and rests
Ex 31:17
God is never tired and never rests
Is 40:28
6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things
Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all
things
Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8
7. God knows the hearts of men
Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3
God tries men to find out what is in their heart
Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12
8. God is all powerful
Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
God is not all powerful
Judg 1:19
9. God is unchangeable
James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19
God is changeable
Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/
Ex 33:1,3,17,14
10. God is just and impartial
Ps 92:15/ Gen 18:25/ Deut 32:4/ Rom 2:11/ Ezek 18:25
God is unjust and partial
Gen 9:25/ Ex 20:5/ Rom 9:11-13/ Matt 13:12
11. God is the author of evil
Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25
God is not the author of evil
1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13
12. God gives freely to those who ask
James 1:5/ Luke 11:10
God withholds his blessings and prevents men from receiving
them
John 12:40/ Josh 11:20/ Is 63:17
13. God is to be found by those who seek him
Matt 7:8/ Prov 8:17
God is not to be found by those who seek him
Prov 1:28
14. God is warlike
Ex 15:3/ Is 51:15
God is peaceful
Rom 15:33/ 1 Cor 14:33
15. God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious
Jer 13:14/ Deut 7:16/ 1 Sam 15:2,3/ 1 Sam 6:19
God is kind, merciful, and good
James 5:11/ Lam 3:33/ 1 Chron 16:34/ Ezek 18:32/ Ps 145:9/
1 Tim 2:4/ 1 John 4:16/ Ps 25:8
16. God's anger is fierce and endures long
Num 32:13/ Num 25:4/ Jer 17:4
God's anger is slow and endures but for a minute
Ps 103:8/ Ps 30:5
Biblical Contradictions

We are told to accept that Jesus existed based upon the Gospels of the Bible, yet the Gospels are so poorly written that a logical person is at best left to ponder if Jesus even existed. The Gospels are consistently contradictive, filled with mathematic errors and don’t compliment each other on very important details.

How many blind men besought Jesus? Matthew 20:30 Two blind men. Luke 18:35-38 Only one blind man.
There were two angels seen by the women at the sepulcher and they were standing up. Luke 24:4 There was only one angel seen and he was sitting down. Mark 28:2-5

Where did Jesus first appear to the eleven disciples? In a room in Jerusalem. Luke 24:32-37 On a mountain in Galilee. Matthew 28:15-17
Contradictions of the Gospel

In a court of law such conflicting statements would be a real issue, and most certainly introduce an element of doubt to the proceedings.

As they do for me in weighing up the claim the bible is the perfect word of god.

It seems more likely on the balance of probability that this book is the imperfect word of men
 
The whole question of was Jesus a real guy is one of the most moot questions I can imagine. It is obvious to the most casual observer (ok, ok, maybe not) that any historical basis for the character of Jesus has been lost to the following factors:
1. Time. The alleged accounts of his life were written so long after as his proposed life span that it is improbable that they were written by actual witnesses. Argue amongst yourselves on this if you will.
2. Mode of discourse. Allegory and metaphor, literary devices misinterpreted and misunderstood to be factual accounts of historical events.
3. Reality. The stark jarring reality that the claims of Jesus and his followers (of whatever variety) are experientially false.
 
I've posted this before, but it's a good example of how things change over time:


I think that the history of Jesus would look as silly as that does to us now if we lived 2000 years ago.
 
Uhh, OK. ;)
Anyway, I think this guy studied and has good arguments in this book. But, if you feel you already know then that's fine with me. Remember the other thread where ya thought the poster should "consider" following contrary evidence? Hmmmm? :p Anyway, for the record I am positive that the person of Jesus is indeed different than the King James version of the bible. You are looking at a collection of writings that were handed down word of mouth over the centuries before they were ever written down. Then when you added it to the "New Testament" you come up with a very Jewish faith that was hijacked first by Rome and then by ignorance of the context and the original laquage and intent of which they were written. I do disagree that the bible is the equivalent of a comic book. But, I think wisdom can be found in all attempts of mankind to understand the infinite. Anyway, interesting responses. I still vote "yes" Jesus of Nazareth walked the earth. But, then again I also think Shakespear was one writer and not two or three. :cool:
 
I'm still agnostic when it comes to religion although I am a nominal Christian I guess. I think I'm actually more of a traveler and seeker than an acutal religious partisan. I'm very, very sure that we are more than the sum of chemicals or the by product of a blind force. But, I'm not sure of the particulars. Anyway, I lost my religion a long time ago. What I have now is more of a template that I use when I go inward. Christianity as God reaching in and participating in the blood and guts and life and death of me and you still touches me. The old time fire and brimstone religion doesn't. I've learned in my journey that you can have faith and belief and an inner life outside of religion without the need of a bunch of rules to bang others over the head with.
 
1. Actually, the Romans were often notoriously poor record keepers, and their historians have to be read with a grain of salt and really scholarly cross-referencing to get the true picture. 2. It would have taken a massively complicit chain of people transcending time, distance, languages, and cultures to perpetuate a hoax of such magnitude. 3. Christianity spread amazingly fast across the empire, encompassing all strata, including upper class aristocratic women. 4. More is known about Jesus's death than the method of deaths of many Roman emperors. How did Gordian III die, at the hand or command of Philip, or was he killed in battle with the Sassanians? 4. Paul's letters, written in the mid-first century, for example to the Romans, etc., assume a very high level of knowledge and organization to churches in wildly disparate regions of the empire. 5. True, many religious beliefs spanning huge swaths of time in antiquity, and yes, of the dying god. Christianity spread fast and widely, for its message. 6. Jesus was for all intents and purposes a small time Jew, whose self-imposed mission was to the Jews almost totally exclusively. 7. There are indeed differences among the gospels, literarily and in details. Yes, they were written by men, there are instances of amalgamation of certain events, but also great agreement and clear details that following the themes of redaction criticism are not dependent on each other. 8. The evangelists were literate, very much so, and they did without doubt draw upon huge streams of oral tradition, streams that go back to Jesus. 9. There is actually much about Jesus that is embarrassing in extremely high degree to Jesus himself, cringingly so. 10. The four evangelists did indeed have differing theological viewpoints about the mission and very nature of Jesus. These strands can be uniquely traced. They were confronted by a man who defied easy categorization, and who, yes, was believed by huge crowds to have worked wonders, and the use of the passive verb there is intentional, was believed to have... This very point is explored fully by scholars who cannot be dispensed with as mere apologists. 11. Jesus cannot, on not only true-believer perspectives, but empirically so, separated from his miracles, exorcisms, and healings, hence so much existing dispassionate study on those deeds he was believed to have performed. Yes, I do find these conclusions reached very convincing, and true, that's my opinion. But I can't think otherwise. I do invite you to read some of these case by case studies. 12. Yes, there is disagreement about exactly when the gospels were written, but there is also wide consensus. And, yes, the church fathers mentioned disagreed about all sorts of things as to church organization and doctrine, often cruelly so, hence Constantine convening a bunch of them to agree. But there was also amazing convergence, hence the fast growth of the church, which, yes, as the centuries passed, diverged into plural. Ok, I'm done. I just rattled all this admitted rambling off the top of my head, disjointed as it admittedly is. But in the end, to me, it is a disjointed history, and I again invite you to read some of these hard rational studies that are a delight, if nothing else academically, and make up your own minds after further study.
 
I like to think I was a good Christian. Sure, I had my secret sins like everyone else (Bettie Page) but I was sincere in my terror of hell and my enthusiasm for heaven. I genuinely loved Jesus Christ. I still do. I mean, come on I am programed to respond in a prescribed way to the image, I can't escape it. I realize that what I hold in my mind as Jesus Christ is so far removed from what the Bible actually teaches that it isn't even funny. But there in lies the rub. When you believe it, you can't see it for it for what it is. Once infected by the mime the mind is governed to some degree and blinders are engaged. I speak from a Southern Baptist via non-denominational Pentecostal Charismatic Holiness come atheist secular humanist perspective, if you can dig where that is coming from.
 
While I'm not an atheist I can totally dig and personally relate to where you are coming from. Southern Baptist and Pentacostal and all the rest. I mean even down to the Bettie Paige part. :cool:
 
Yeah, I read some of her views on faith. I found myself agreeing quite a bit with her. She was quite a person and had quite an interesting life. Hard knocks and some good times and she came out of it without the hangdog "woe is me" and without the false piety of the repentant. She seemed to be able to find herself in all the noise.
 
I may have to pick up the book, but there is absolutely nothing that I've read in the bible, nor any bible study texts that can prove to me that the works of "Jesus" were anything more than a collection of events perpetrated by several individuals, over a very long time period (well over the 3 years generally attributed to the messianic teachings.)

Further I have no reason to believe in a Jehovah/Yahweh figure's existence other than to answer the questions that could not be answered by fathers, uncles, grandfathers, village elders, and such.

I'm too tired to say anything more on the subject tonight.
 
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