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Good article on did Jesus exsist?

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Hey, Trained. I actually had my eyes tearing over, and I'm serious. That was very heartfelt. Please clarify: when you say the image or idea of Jesus you have in your mind is so far apart from Jesus of the Bible, which is which? I mean, may I ask you to describe the Jesus in your mind as contrasted with the Jesus you see in the Bible? That seems to have had an effect on you, but could you differentiate in more detail? Which Jesus do you find difficult to come to grips with? As for Bettie Page, well, your mention of her brought back memories! I went to google images, and what a treat. TONS of pure aching delight. She was my later boyhood yummy. Precocious little fellow that I was, my very first pictorial obsession was Francisco de Goya's paired paintings: the Maja Clothed and the Maja Nude. I found them in a series of art history books my mom had on her shelves. Since this is a family forum, I will not mention the dirty deed to which the Maja Nude was a visual accompaniment. So you see, Trained, that despite your evident crisis of faith, you are as the snow white lamb compared to me.
 
The "witnesses" who saw and heard nothing

As it happens, we have an excellent witness to events in Judaea and the Jewish diaspora in the first half of the first century AD: Philo of Alexandria (c25 BC-47 AD).

Philo was an old man when he led an embassy from the Jews to the court of Emperor Gaius Caligula. The year was 39-40 AD. Philo clearly, then, lived at precisely the time that "Jesus of Nazareth" supposedly entered the world to a chorus of angels, enthralled the multitudes by performing miracles, and got himself crucified.

Philo was also in the right place to give testimony of a messianic contender. A Jewish aristocrat and leader of the large Jewish community of Alexandria, we know that Philo spent time in Jerusalem (On Providence) where he had intimate connections with the royal house of Judaea. His brother, Alexander the "alabarch" (chief tax official), was one of the richest men in the east, in charge of collecting levies on imports into Roman Egypt. Alexander's great wealth financed the silver and gold sheathing which adorned the doors of the Temple (Josephus, War 5.205). Alexander also loaned a fortune to Herod Agrippa I (Antiquities 18).

One of Alexander's sons, and Philo's nephews, Marcus, was married to Berenice, daughter of Herod Agrippa, tetrarch of Galilee and Peraea, 39-40. After the exile of Herod Antipas – villain of the Jesus saga – he ruled as King of the Jews, 41-44 AD. Another nephew was the "apostate" Julius Alexander Tiberius, Prefect of Egypt and also Procurator of Judaea itself (46-48 AD).

Much as Josephus would, a half century later, Philo wrote extensive apologetics on the Jewish religion and commentaries on contemporary politics. About thirty manuscripts and at least 850,000 words are extant. Philo offers commentary on all the major characters of the Pentateuch and, as we might expect, mentions Moses more than a thousand times.

Yet Philo says not a word about Jesus, Christianity nor any of the events described in the New Testament. In all this work, Philo makes not a single reference to his alleged contemporary "Jesus Christ", the godman who supposedly was perambulating up and down the Levant, exorcising demons, raising the dead and causing earthquake and darkness at his death.

With Philo's close connection to the house of Herod, one might reasonably expect that the miraculous escape from a royal prison of a gang of apostles (Acts 5.18,40), or the second, angel-assisted, flight of Peter, even though chained between soldiers and guarded by four squads of troops (Acts 12.2,7) might have occasioned the odd footnote. But not a murmur. Nothing of Agrippa "vexing certain of the church" or killing "James brother of John" with the sword (Acts 12.1,2).

Witness to Jesus? - Philo of Alexandria

and

Non-Christian Testimony for Jesus? – From the authentic pen of lying Christian scribes !!
 
"They speak of a Teacher of Righteousness and a pierced messiah, of cleansing through water and a battle of light against darkness.
"But anyone looking to the Dead Sea Scrolls in search of proof, say, that Jesus of Nazareth was the messiah presaged by the prophets, or that John the Baptist lived among the scroll's authors, will be disappointed."​

News items are circulating about how "hints" and "insights" contained in the famous Dead Sea Scrolls discovered in caves near the ancient site of Qumran can be found in the Bible. In other words, certain ideas in the scrolls also appear in the New Testament, meaning, of course, that the impression of Christianity as a "divine revelation" appearing whole cloth miraculously from the very finger of God is clearly erroneous.

Few scholars today claim that any of the Dead Sea Scrolls ("DSS") date to the time after Christianity was allegedly founded by a "historical" Jesus in the first century of the common era. Indeed, it is agreed that most of the scrolls pre-date the turn of the era and that none of them show any knowledge of Jesus Christ or Christianity.
Moreover, the Sermon on the Mount - supposedly the original monologue straight out of the mouth of the Son of God Himself - can be shown to be a series of Old Testament scriptures strung together, along with, apparently, such texts from Qumran. No "historical" founder was necessary at all to speak these words, as they are a rehash of extant sayings. (Even in this patent literary device the gospels cannot agree, as Luke 6:17-49 depicts the Sermon as having taken place on a plain.)

It is easy to see why the Catholic Church would blanche upon the discovery of these scrolls, as it could be - and has been - argued that these texts erode the very foundation of Christianity

The bottom line is that the existence of the Old Testament and the intertestamental literature such as the Dead Sea Scrolls shows how Christianity is a cut-and-paste job - a fact I also reveal in The Christ Conspiracy, in a chapter called "The Making of a Myth," which contains a discussion of some of the texts obviously used in the creation of the new faith. These influential texts evidently included some of the original Dead Sea Scrolls, serving not as "prophecy," "prefiguring" or "presaging" but as blueprints of pre-existing, older concepts cobbled together in the New Testament
Dead Sea Scrolls prove Bible unoriginal

How can the Sermon on the Mount - supposedly the original monologue straight out of the mouth of the Son of God Himself , turn up in the dead sea scolls which predate him ?

The logical answer is the "story" is indeed a cut and paste of an older one

Good article here about the sut and paste aspect

http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/originsofchristianity.pdf

and the answer to these similaritys ?

The devil did it..........

In making these comparisons between Christianity and its predecessor Paganism, however, Justin sinisterly spluttered:

...it having reached the devil's ears that the prophets had foretold that Christ would come for the purpose of tormenting the wicked in fire, he set the heathen poets to bring forward a great many who should be called (and were called) sons of Jove. The Devil laying his scheme in this, to get men to imagine that the true history of Christ was of the same character as those prodigious fables and poetic stories.
 
I remember reading a short essay in the Nexus magazine of all places while I was in my last years of University.
What I read was in short a synopsis of my own work (more or less) at the time which I will not post here as it would span far too many pages and to be honest it is very unusual for me to wade into this topic now days. I also do not have a digital copy of it anymore that I can find and I really do not want to type out the whole manuscript.

Anyway I find Ehrma's stand strange and it bears keeping in mind while you read this post as I find it hard given the evidence against an actual historical Jesus in the biblical sense to see why he would side with the church in this matter.

So by way of an opening I will quote what I see as a very astute summation of the situation:

"It has often been emphasized that Christianity is unlike any other religion, for it stands or falls by certain events which are alleged to have occurred during a short period of time some 20 centuries ago. Those stories are presented in the New Testament, and as new evidence is revealed it will become clear that they do not represent historical realities. The Church agrees, saying: "Our documentary sources of knowledge about the origins of Christianity and its earliest development are chiefly the New Testament Scriptures, the authenticity of which we must, to a great extent, take for granted." (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. iii, p. 712.)"


Like it or not it is the truth and any scholar who is not a church apologist can tell you this, that the gospels do not go back to the first century of the so called christian era, and that the authenticity falls in essence into the "biggest black hole in history". But again Ehrman must have read this and followed this path of inquiry, however I digress and we will come back to Ehrman latter.

This of course fly's in the face of what the priesthood would have you believe that the gospels were systematically written in the decades following the death of Jesus Christ.

The fact is, that this is simply not the case and the whole situation is much more complicated than that if we get down to the nuts and bolts of just where these texts were derived from.

The point is basically this:

"the earliest of the extant manuscripts [of the New Testament], it is true, do not date back beyond the middle of the fourth century AD" (Catholic Encyclopedia, op. cit., pp. 656-7).

But for simplicity sake it is best to look at just how and to the greater extent who complied the seeds of which would become the "modern" gospels and not get tied down as to which of the major traditions at the time these seeds came from for now.

There are two central characters at the root of this, Flavius Constantinus or Constantine and Eusebius.

This next part is long so please indulge me as it it is worth the time taken to understand the reality's of the time that Constantine faced.

"It was British-born Flavius Constantinus (Constantine, originally Custennyn or Custennin) (272-337) who authorised the compilation of the writings now called the New Testament. After the death of his father in 306, Constantine became King of Britain, Gaul and Spain, and then, after a series of victorious battles, Emperor of the Roman Empire. Christian historians give little or no hint of the turmoil of the times and suspend Constantine in the air, free of all human events happening around him. In truth, one of Constantine's main problems was the uncontrollable disorder amongst presbyters and their belief in numerous gods.
The majority of modern-day Christian writers suppress the truth about the development of their religion and conceal Constantine's efforts to curb the disreputable character of the presbyters who are now called "Church Fathers" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. xiv, pp. 370-1). They were "maddened", he said (Life of Constantine, attributed to Eusebius Pamphilius of Caesarea, c. 335, vol. iii, p. 171; The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, cited as N&PNF, attributed to St Ambrose, Rev. Prof. Roberts, DD, and Principal James Donaldson, LLD, editors, 1891, vol. iv, p. 467). The "peculiar type of oratory" expounded by them was a challenge to a settled religious order (The Dictionary of Classical Mythology, Religion, Literature and Art, Oskar Seyffert, Gramercy, New York, 1995, pp. 544-5). Ancient records reveal the true nature of the presbyters, and the low regard in which they were held has been subtly suppressed by modern Church historians. In reality, they were:

"...the most rustic fellows, teaching strange paradoxes. They openly declared that none but the ignorant was fit to hear their discourses ... they never appeared in the circles of the wiser and better sort, but always took care to intrude themselves among the ignorant and uncultured, rambling around to play tricks at fairs and markets ... they lard their lean books with the fat of old fables ... and still the less do they understand ... and they write nonsense on vellum ... and still be doing, never done." (Contra Celsum ["Against Celsus"], Origen of Alexandria, c. 251, Bk I, p. lxvii, Bk III, p. xliv, passim)

Clusters of presbyters had developed "many gods and many lords" (1 Cor. 8:5) and numerous religious sects existed, each with differing doctrines (Gal. 1:6). Presbyterial groups clashed over attributes of their various gods and "altar was set against altar" in competing for an audience (Optatus of Milevis, 1:15, 19, early fourth century). From Constantine's point of view, there were several factions that needed satisfying, and he set out to develop an all-embracing religion during a period of irreverent confusion. In an age of crass ignorance, with nine-tenths of the peoples of Europe illiterate, stabilizing religious splinter groups was only one of Constantine's problems. The smooth generalization, which so many historians are content to repeat, that Constantine "embraced the Christian religion" and subsequently granted "official toleration", is "contrary to historical fact" and should be erased from our literature forever (Catholic Encyclopedia, Pecci ed., vol. iii, p. 299, passim). Simply put, there was no Christian religion at Constantine's time, and the Church acknowledges that the tale of his "conversion" and "baptism" are "entirely legendary" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. xiv, pp. 370-1).

Constantine "never acquired a solid theological knowledge" and "depended heavily on his advisers in religious questions" (Catholic Encyclopedia, New Edition, vol. xii, p. 576, passim). According to Eusebeius (260-339), Constantine noted that among the presbyterian factions "strife had grown so serious, vigorous action was necessary to establish a more religious state", but he could not bring about a settlement between rival god factions (Life of Constantine, op. cit., pp. 26-8). His advisers warned him that the presbyters' religions were "destitute of foundation" and needed official stabilization (ibid.).

Constantine saw in this confused system of fragmented dogmas the opportunity to create a new and combined State religion, neutral in concept, and to protect it by law. When he conquered the East in 324 he sent his Spanish religious adviser, Osius of Córdoba, to Alexandria with letters to several bishops exhorting them to make peace among themselves. The mission failed and Constantine, probably at the suggestion of Osius, then issued a decree commanding all presbyters and their subordinates "be mounted on asses, mules and horses belonging to the public, and travel to the city of Nicaea" in the Roman province of Bithynia in Asia Minor. They were instructed to bring with them the testimonies they orated to the rabble, "bound in leather" for protection during the long journey, and surrender them to Constantine upon arrival in Nicaea (The Catholic Dictionary, Addis and Arnold, 1917, "Council of Nicaea" entry). Their writings totaled "in all, two thousand two hundred and thirty-one scrolls and legendary tales of gods and saviours, together with a record of the doctrines orated by them" (Life of Constantine, op. cit., vol. ii, p. 73; N&PNF, op. cit., vol. i, p. 518)."

In short what he faced was either create a state religion or watch his new empire be torn apart from within by religious strife. In hindsight his motivations were in all practical sense pure political and survival and to be honest Ehrman must have read and studied this.

So just how could Ehrman "convincingly demonstrate(s) in clear, forceful prose that there was a historical Jesus, a Jewish teacher of the first century who was crucified by Pontius Pilate." Given that the evidence for an actual Jesus in the historical sense is paper thin at best.

I say this because the story of one "Jesus Christ" was in essence little more than a fabrication born of the first council a child of political expediency

So under Constantine the first ecclesiastical gathering in history was summoned and is today known as the Council of Nicaea. It was a bizarre event that provided many details of early clerical thinking and presents a clear picture of the intellectual climate prevailing at the time. It was at this gathering that Christianity was born, and the ramifications of decisions made at the time are difficult to calculate. About four years prior to chairing the Council, Constantine had been initiated into the religious order of Sol Invictus, one of the two thriving cults that regarded the Sun as the one and only Supreme God (the other was Mithraism). Because of his Sun worship, he instructed Eusebius to convene the first of three sittings on the summer solstice, 21 June 325 (Catholic Encyclopedia, New Edition, vol. i, p. 792), and it was "held in a hall in Osius's palace" (Ecclesiastical History, Bishop Louis Dupin, Paris, 1686, vol. i, p. 598). In an account of the proceedings of the conclave of presbyters gathered at Nicaea, Sabinius, Bishop of Hereclea, who was in attendance, said, "Excepting Constantine himself and Eusebius Pamphilius, they were a set of illiterate, simple creatures who understood nothing" (Secrets of the Christian Fathers, Bishop J. W. Sergerus, 1685, 1897 reprint).

This is another luminous confession of the ignorance and uncritical credulity of early churchmen. Dr Richard Watson (1737-1816), a disillusioned Christian historian and one-time Bishop of Llandaff in Wales (1782), referred to them as "a set of gibbering idiots" (An Apology for Christianity, 1776, 1796 reprint; also, Theological Tracts, Dr Richard Watson, "On Councils" entry, vol. 2, London, 1786, revised reprint 1791). From his extensive research into Church councils, Dr Watson concluded that "the clergy at the Council of Nicaea were all under the power of the devil, and the convention was composed of the lowest rabble and patronised the vilest abominations" (An Apology for Christianity, op. cit.). It was that infantile body of men who were responsible for the commencement of a new religion and the theological creation of Jesus Christ.
The Church admits that vital elements of the proceedings at Nicaea are "strangely absent from the canons" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. iii, p. 160). We shall see shortly what happened to them. However, according to records that endured, Eusebius "occupied the first seat on the right of the emperor and delivered the inaugural address on the emperor's behalf" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. v, pp. 619-620). There were no British presbyters at the council but many Greek delegates. "Seventy Eastern bishops" represented Asiatic factions, and small numbers came from other areas (Ecclesiastical History, ibid.). Caecilian of Carthage travelled from Africa, Paphnutius of Thebes from Egypt, Nicasius of Die (Dijon) from Gaul, and Donnus of Stridon made the journey from Pannonia.

It was at that puerile assembly, and with so many cults represented, that a total of 318 "bishops, priests, deacons, subdeacons, acolytes and exorcists" gathered to debate and decide upon a unified belief system that encompassed only one god (An Apology for Christianity, op. cit.). By this time, a huge assortment of "wild texts" (Catholic Encyclopedia, New Edition, "Gospel and Gospels") circulated amongst presbyters and they supported a great variety of Eastern and Western gods and goddesses:
Jove, Jupiter, Salenus, Baal, Thor, Gade, Apollo, Juno, Aries, Taurus, Minerva, Rhets, Mithra, Theo, Fragapatti, Atys, Durga, Indra, Neptune, Vulcan, Kriste, Agni, Croesus, Pelides, Huit, Hermes, Thulis, Thammus, Eguptus, Iao, Aph, Saturn, Gitchens, Minos, Maximo, Hecla and Phernes (God's Book of Eskra, anon., ch. xlviii, paragraph 36).
Up until the First Council of Nicaea, the Roman aristocracy primarily worshipped two Greek gods-Apollo and Zeus-but the great bulk of common people idolised either Julius Caesar or Mithras (the Romanised version of the Persian deity Mithra). Caesar was deified by the Roman Senate after his death (15 March 44 BC) and subsequently venerated as "the Divine Julius". The word "Saviour" was affixed to his name, its literal meaning being "one who sows the seed", i.e., he was a phallic god. Julius Caesar was hailed as "God made manifest and universal Saviour of human life", and his successor Augustus was called the "ancestral God and Saviour of the whole human race" (Man and his Gods, Homer Smith, Little, Brown & Co., Boston, 1952). Emperor Nero (54-68), whose original name was Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus (37-68), was immortalised on his coins as the "Saviour of mankind" (ibid.). The Divine Julius as Roman Saviour and "Father of the Empire" was considered "God" among the Roman rabble for more than 300 years. He was the deity in some Western presbyters' texts, but was not recognised in Eastern or Oriental writings.

Constantine's intention at Nicaea was to create an entirely new god for his empire who would unite all religious factions under one deity. Presbyters were asked to debate and decide who their new god would be. Delegates argued among themselves, expressing personal motives for inclusion of particular writings that promoted the finer traits of their own special deity. Throughout the meeting, howling factions were immersed in heated debates, and the names of 53 gods were tabled for discussion. "As yet, no God had been selected by the council, and so they balloted in order to determine that matter... For one year and five months the balloting lasted..." (God's Book of Eskra, Prof. S. L. MacGuire's translation, Salisbury, 1922, chapter xlviii, paragraphs 36, 41).

At the end of that time, Constantine returned to the gathering to discover that the presbyters had not agreed on a new deity but had balloted down to a shortlist of five prospects: Caesar, Krishna, Mithra, Horus and Zeus (Historia Ecclesiastica, Eusebius, c. 325). Constantine was the ruling spirit at Nicaea and he ultimately decided upon a new god for them. To involve British factions, he ruled that the name of the great Druid god, Hesus, be joined with the Eastern Saviour-god, Krishna (Krishna is Sanskrit for Christ), and thus Hesus Krishna would be the official name of the new Roman god. A vote was taken and it was with a majority show of hands (161 votes to 157) that both divinities became one God. Following longstanding heathen custom, Constantine used the official gathering and the Roman apotheosis decree to legally deify two deities as one, and did so by democratic consent. A new god was proclaimed and "officially" ratified by Constantine (Acta Concilii Nicaeni, 1618). That purely political act of deification effectively and legally placed Hesus and Krishna among the Roman gods as one individual composite. That abstraction lent Earthly existence to amalgamated doctrines for the Empire's new religion; and because there was no letter "J" in alphabets until around the ninth century, the name subsequently evolved into "Jesus Christ".

Ok I am going to stop here for a little bit as I need a coffee and want to hunt out some of my old notes and manuscript.

See you in part 2
 
Wow, lots to take in. :) I see I'm at least not alone in thinking about these things. I have made a note or two and will look in to some of this. I'm of the opinion that the bible itself is full of wisdom and myth and politics and faith. Not handed down word for word from the Almighty but still a very honest attempt by mankind to come to grips with the infinite. We just can't seem to do that without covering it in our own prejudice and politics.
 
Wow, lots to take in. :) I see I'm at least not alone in thinking about these things. I have made a note or two and will look in to some of this. I'm of the opinion that the bible itself is full of wisdom and myth and politics and faith. Not handed down word for word from the Almighty but still a very honest attempt by mankind to come to grips with the infinite. We just can't seem to do that without covering it in our own prejudice and politics.

Thank you.

Yes please do not get me wrong I have the same feeling about the Bible and I am sorry for the strong wording in the post above.
My own work was much kinder in what I had to say and much more in depth... I will also note that the citation in this needs to be checked by me also but many of them I used myself so I feel it should be good in that respect.

eg

Richard Watson (bishop of Llandaff) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

what I am using for this post is "The forged Origins of the New Testament"

But I feel I should get to it and re type my own work as I would feel much better posting that and to be blunt it is much less sloppy than the one I am using as a citation here... but ouch mine is much longer lol. Hmm also it will be quite out of date as its around 10 or 12 years old and much study has been done since.

Anyway I am not finished but I may come back to this after I get some sleep as it is after 1am here in New Zealand.
 
This is the first link I found on this subject. I don't know anything about these folks and I have to run to a meeting this morning. I will research it a little better when I have more time. But, for anybody interested here is a link and some highlights. Again, I am just now looking into this. Also, for the record I am NOT a church going bible thumping person. I am not trying to offend, convert or argue. I am trying to understand something that has been a huge part of my life's journey. I gave up a long time ago on every knowing everything and putting it in a neat package. But, it's still fun and informative and interesting to talk and wonder and study.

10 February 2012
Daniel B. Wallace
On 1 February 2012, I debated Bart Ehrman at UNC Chapel Hill on whether we have the wording of the original New Testament today. This was our third such debate, and it was before a crowd of more than 1000 people. I mentioned that seven New Testament papyri had recently been discovered—six of them probably from the second century and one of them probably from the first. These fragments will be published in about a year.

Home Page

 
Some thing I remembered is that some New Testament apologists may cite that the earliest allusion to any of the Gospels is from about 130 A.D. in the works of Bishop Papias. Do not get fooled so easy as the church spent a vast amount of time sanatizing as many early works as they could to show a progressively development of the early writings into the Gospels as we now know them.

Sorry it is a point I must go into great depth about latter as it was this editing of other works to boost their position that has created much confusion over the years.
 
This is the first link I found on this subject. I don't know anything about these folks and I have to run to a meeting this morning. I will research it a little better when I have more time. But, for anybody interested here is a link and some highlights. Again, I am just now looking into this. Also, for the record I am NOT a church going bible thumping person. I am not trying to offend, convert or argue. I am trying to understand something that has been a huge part of my life's journey. I gave up a long time ago on every knowing everything and putting it in a neat package. But, it's still fun and informative and interesting to talk and wonder and study.

10 February 2012
Daniel B. Wallace
On 1 February 2012, I debated Bart Ehrman at UNC Chapel Hill on whether we have the wording of the original New Testament today. This was our third such debate, and it was before a crowd of more than 1000 people. I mentioned that seven New Testament papyri had recently been discovered—six of them probably from the second century and one of them probably from the first. These fragments will be published in about a year.

Home Page

Interesting and is something I should look into myself. To date the oldest form of the New Testaments was the Sinai Bible and when compared with a modern-day New Testament, a staggering 14,800 editorial alterations can be identified. If I remember off the top of my head it dates to around the 6th century CE.
 
Again, all disjointed off the top of my head. All the stuff in the newer threads is old stuff, so thoughts at random as they occur. A. Philo is mentioned as little as Jesus by Josephus. Philo was thick in the arguments between the Jews and Greeks in Alexandria, stressing the allegorical aspect of the Jewish scriptures, around for numerous centuries (!). Philo was quite upper class, educated as a Greek and roman. Extreme strife and violence had characterized the relationship between Greeks and Jews for a long time, and philo tried to make the Jewish scriptures palatable to the Greeks. No real reason he would have cared about Jesus. B. Chronology seems to get very condensed in these threads, jumping to Constantine, who was no saint indeed, and having him create Christianity at Nicaea. As I mentioned earlier, the early church fathers had disagreements. Condemnation of bishops by other bishops indeed happened, based on, ver much so, the argument as to the substance of Christ and his relation to the father, and I use those words purposefully. All this argumentation was done in Greek, the language of the Hellenistic east and the written language of the evangelists. All this argumentation spoke to the fact of the already great growth and strength of the church, divided east and west doctrinally. But the strife is made more than it was in these threads, which seem to employ heavy artillery, and confuse and condense events during the times of Constantine and his sons. The church hardly needed creation at this point. Read about arius, read about the fine points of doctrine, fascinating stuff ongoing through the reformation and today. This gets far far afield from the times of Jesus. D. The Bodmer papyrus 66, discovered in Egypt in 1952, contains nearly a full text of the gospel of John, dated to About AD 200. There is broad consensus that mark was written about late sixties ad. I have discussed the evangelists in an earlier thread. Many, many, many works of antiquity survive by having been copied later, hence much of what we know about Alexander ( the great) and indeed, the roman historians and their histories. Anyway enough for now! All this is disjointed and just thrown out. I am no scholar, just read about Greek, roman,and religious history extensively.
 
Jesus is a Greek word so its very unlikely that was his real name. Ancient Latin Jesus would be named and called Iesus. But Jesus was Jewish and probably spoke the Hebrew language. If Jesus existed as the tales suggest i think he was a priest who had some wild ideas in his head that were unusual for the time and period and probably was the sole reason for why he ended up dead at such a young age of 32.
 
More of my disjointed thoughts! 1. Thanks, Tyder, for the link to Wallace's home page. 2. I think a great mistake is made historically and empirically when it is alleged that great new discoveries have been made concerning the gospel texts, that they were mistranslated, that great conspiratorial complicity caused them to be as they currently are, etcetera, etc. The gospels were written in Greek, and Greek is, well, Greek to me. What little I know is confined to numismatical stuff. But at least as early as Jerome, the gospels were translated into Latin. I read the resulting Vulgate with ease, and have studied Latin for decades, though the primary stuff is still pretty daunting to me, and Latin is, as the old ditty goes, killing me. There's really nothing new under the sun here. I think reading the Bible in Latin gets me at least somewhat back farther, but will confine myself to the gospels. There have been no big new translations, no changing of the wording and text, since the time of their composition. Minor changes, sure, but the gospels were written in very straightforward language, whether Greek, Latin, or English (or other language). The most that can be said concerning the Latin translation(s) is that clearly because of the nature of Latin grammar, there is a very real economy of words in the Latin. Look on the internet for parallel translations between, most often, the King James, and Latin. What takes a verse several lines in English will often be trimmed down to fewer in Latin, and it's a delight to see this: Latin is a beautiful language. However, is the meaning changed? Decidedly not. It is disingenuous to maintain that great complicities have taken place over centuries to give us the gospels as they now come to us. And it is equally so to maintain that centuries (and centuries) passed after the life of Jesus before the gospels were written. There is broad consensus on this. 3. Concerning Constantine again: It is pure baloney to maintain that Constantine, all powerful, convened the dissenting bishops to Nicaea and forced them to create a new religion/god/or whatever, as is maintained. To say the bishops, arguing among themselves as they certainly were, over fine points of doctrine, were ragged/rustic/rabble, etc. is too easy. It simply is not the case. These were oftentimes very learned men, and to say they were impotent in the face of Constantine is absurd. In other posts, Constantine is portrayed as all powerful in the empire, and the events in his reign are horribly condensed and simplified to portray him as somehow creating a new god. And so again, with the conspiratorial stuff. Constantine took an awful long time to consolidate his power over the entire empire. Please study about Licinius, ruling concurrently in the east with Constantine for many years. There was a cold war between the two for many years, generally Constantine in the west, Licinius in the east. No, it did not take Constantine a mere series of battles to become emperor. There is a real lack of understanding here about the Romans and Roman history. Please see my previous posts for more disjointed thoughts, and I really mean nothing personal here against anyone per se. I just want to point out some information that really is indisputable. The gospels were not cut and pasted, and are not the result of centuries of absurd conspiracies. The information we are discussing cannot in itself, also, be merely cut and pasted. That runs the risk of the heavy artillery I alluded to earlier, where red herrings are flung about with abandon, categorical statements are made about conspiracies, and the legions are thrown full force and pell mell against the facts. Sol Invictus is called upon, this church father and that church father is invoked with abandon, and let it simmer in its conspiratorial juices. The gospels were changed, the sky is falling, Jesus was created by Constantine, the bishops were ragged rabble engaged in crimes against thought. Ok, excuse that florid outburst! My very first post in this thread was exactly how scholars can, and have, applied hard rationality to the gospels and come up with some intriguing results.
 
Cut and paste is the best explanation imo for this

The Egyptian sun god Horus (or one of the gods to whom he has been assilimated, such as Osiris or Ra) predated the Christ character by thousands of years and shares the following in common with Jesus:


  • Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three "wise men."
  • His earthly father was named "Seb" ("Joseph"). Seb is also known as "Geb": "As Horus the Elder he...was believed to be the son of Geb and Nut." --Lewis Spence, Ancient Egyptian Myths and Legends, 84.
  • He was of royal descent.
  • At age 12, he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized, having disappeared for 18 years.
  • Horus was baptized in the river Eridanus or Iarutana (Jordan) by "Anup the Baptizer" ("John the Baptist"), who was decapitated.
  • He had 12 followers and/or fellow gods, two of whom were his "witnesses" and were named "Anup" and "Aan" (the two "Johns").
  • He performed miracles, exorcised demons and raised El-Azarus ("El-Osiris"), from the dead.
  • The Egyptian god walked on water.
  • His personal epithet was "Iusa," the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the "Father." He was thus called "Holy Child."
  • Horus was transfigured on the Mount.
  • The Egyptian god/Osiris was killed, buried for three days in a tomb, and resurrected.
  • Horus, Osiris and/or Ra were called the "Way, the Truth, the Light," "Messiah," "God's Anointed Son," the "Son of Man," the "Good Shepherd," the "Lamb of God," the "Word made flesh," the "Word of Truth," etc.
  • The Egyptian god was "the Fisher" and was associated with the Fish ("Ichthys"), Lamb and Lion.
  • He came to fulfill the Law.
  • The Egyptian god/Osiris was called "the KRST," or "Anointed One."
  • Like Jesus, "Horus was supposed to reign one thousand years."
Furthermore, inscribed about 3,500 years ago on the walls of the Temple at Luxorwere images of the Annunciation, Immaculate Conception, Birth and Adoration of the pharaoh Amenhotep (Horus), with Thoth announcing to the queen that she will conceive; with the god Amun impregnating the queen; and with the infant being attended by "kings" bearing gifts. In addition, in the catacombs at Rome are pictures of the baby Horus being held by the virgin mother Isis--the original "Madonna and Child."

As is the fact that the sermon on the mount turns up in the dead sea scroll which predate the christ story.

As far as Philo is concerned, what was written about him is not the salient point, its what philo wrote about, what went on in his lifetime

Philo wrote extensive apologetics on the Jewish religion and commentaries on contemporary politics. About thirty manuscripts and at least 850,000 words are extant. Philo offers commentary on all the major characters of the Pentateuch and, as we might expect, mentions Moses more than a thousand times.

Yet Philo says not a word about Jesus, Christianity nor any of the events described in the New Testament. In all this work, Philo makes not a single reference to his alleged contemporary "Jesus Christ", the godman who supposedly was perambulating up and down the Levant, exorcising demons, raising the dead and causing earthquake and darkness at his death.
You'd think such a prolific writer, with an interest in religion and contemporary politics would have mentioned it if someone was wandering about raising the dead.
 
Cut and paste is the best explanation imo for this



As is the fact that the sermon on the mount turns up in the dead sea scroll which predate the christ story.

And is the reason why you have christian like story's appear in other traditions ... why because they were taken from those other traditions.
I found a massive amount of this sort of transmission while translating Sanskrit texts. I felt I was reading what looked like Christian story's but they where in fact not they were Buddhist.

Anyway mike I covered this in my Masters work over 10 years ago and to be quite blunt I simply do not care anymore. Kim knows it all let him explain it.

Peace

stonehart

Oh as a side note the text I was reading was from the 3rd century BC and talked about sowing seeds and reaping seeds..... you should be able to find that in the bible to
 
Heres another aspect

Nazareth

The Myth of Nazareth shows that the village came into existence not earlier than 70 CE (the climax of the First Jewish War), and most likely in early II CE—the same era in which the canonical gospels were being edited. Furthermore, this study shows that there was a long hiatus in settlement in the Nazareth basin between the Late Iron Age (c. 700 BCE) and Middle Roman times (c. 100 CE).

The truth about Nazareth

Be sure to check out Randi's YT clip (top right of page)

More here

Nazareth – The Town that Theology Built

4th Century Pilgrim Route – and NO NAZARETH!

4th-pilgrim.gif



Itinerarium Burdigalense – the Itinerary of the Anonymous Pilgrim of Bordeaux – is the earliest description left by a pious tourist. It is dated to 333 AD. The itinerary is a Roman-style list of towns and distances with the occasional comment.​
As the pilgrim passes Jezreel (Stradela) he mentions King Ahab and Goliath. At Aser (Teyasir) he mentions Job. At Neopolis his reference is to Mount Gerizim, Abraham, Joseph, and Jacob's well at Sichar (where JC 'asked water of a Samaritan woman'). He passes the village of Bethel (Beitin) and mentions Jacob's wrestling match with God, and Jeroboam. He moves on to Jerusalem.​
Our pilgrim – preoccupied with Old rather than New Testament stories – makes no single reference to 'Nazareth
 
And is the reason why you have christian like story's appear in other traditions ... why because they were taken from those other traditions.
I found a massive amount of this sort of transmission while translating Sanskrit texts. I felt I was reading what looked like Christian story's but they where in fact not they were Buddhist.

Anyway mike I covered this in my Masters work over 10 years ago and to be quite blunt I simply do not care anymore. Kim knows it all let him explain it.

Peace

stonehart

Oh as a side note the text I was reading was from the 3rd century BC and talked about sowing seeds and reaping seeds..... you should be able to find that in the bible to

Original or fake?

The problem for Jesus is that all these deities are much older than him. You don't have to be very bright to see where the authors of the Gospels got their "devine inspiration" when they created the Jewish version of the popular God-Man/ World-Saviour of Antiquity.

The cut and paste reality is clear, and in order to get around it the church says
Satan "planted" these storys ahead of time to discredit jesus............
 

lol thanks Mike it was that situation that put me on a path of study years ago.

As for the Buddhist connection to the Gospels it should be of no surprise that the pre-christian Greeks did receive emissaries from the court of Indian King Ashoka so the inter religious exchange of ideas was bound to happen. Note that this is before Christianity as the Buddhist King Ashoka can be placed to 304–232 BC.
There is if one looks an astounding amount of similarity's between the Gospels and the Pali and Sanskrit writings for example Christian Lindtner compares the Pali and Sanskrit Buddhist texts with the Greek gospels and determines that the four gospels were reformulated from older Buddhist texts based on gematria values, puns, and syllabic equivalences.

I am not totaly convinced myself as to Lindtners work as the 'syllabic equivalences are possibly coincidental and that his puns exist because the Greek and Sanskrit are from the same language family' but there is enough evidence to affirm an interchange of ideas. So it comes down to a who came first the chicken or the egg.

The main thrust here is that all traditions experience a flow of ideas from one faith to the next and unless say in the case of the South and Middle American cultures are never in isolation from each other.

So yes who is the Original and who is the Fake indeed ... I say none and all.

I guess at this point we could always throw The Nag Hammadi into the mix and make a real mess of things.
 
I think this quote is apt

Much of the writings and research on the Jesus figure is amazingly biased, vague, tendentious and pervaded with wishful thinking.

One should in general be a bit sceptical of Christian scholars who often (obviously) don't have the necessary distance to their subject and obviously seem to be on a mission to prove the statements in the Bible, no matter what the real evidence says. As Christians they are usually convinced that Jesus did once exist as a real person in the first place, and are just looking for a confirmation.

The reader should of course not take my assertions for granted either, but investigate the sources themselves, also the critical literature. The conclusions are then just a matter of honesty.

And this page makes a good point

POCM Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth > POCM > Christianity is another ancient Pagan religion.

Why is it the same storys which predate jesus are obviously myths, yet his isnt
 
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