Good article on did Jesus exsist?

[stonehart]

I think this quote is apt



And this page makes a good point

POCM Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth > POCM > Christianity is another ancient Pagan religion.

Why is it the same storys which predate jesus are obviously myths, yet his isnt

That my friend is the million dollar question.....

 

[Kim323]

Hey, Mike and Stonehart. Boo hoo. You two, really, are not playing fair, and are not addressing the issue we're discussing. Red herrings is a vast understatement. Again, my thoughts off the top of my head. That whole horus, isis, osiris list is simply not true, it's an old saw I've seen before, and extended in even more belabored form elsewhere and long ago. It's part of an "endeavor" called Christianity as myth, and it includes your last post, too, Stonehart. True, it's got a gotcha quality that closes the door pretty tightly. Nothing against you guys personally, I hasten to add. Egyptologists hold that Horus stuff in the highest disdain. It was pushed by some guy named Massey, I think (spelling?). I've read it all before, and it sidetracks a discussion on the issue of the gospels. You know, in many ways, you and Stonehart are advancing stuff that in and of itself is not only false on the face of it, but even if certain parts are true, and no doubt if dissected certain details of what you present are true, do you ask yourselves if, really, what you are advancing makes any more sense than sticking to the topic of the gospels and Jesus and what the evangelists wrote about Jesus? Again, you are not playing fair, even in my opinion with yourselves. You two are too intelligent to let yourselves off so easily and categorically. Oh well, Stonehart is very wrong. Kim cannot explain it all. I just know that in this discussion I have written off the top of my head, things I have personally studied extensively, and with a very hard and rational frame of mind. I've mentioned things that can be read and can more. What I've on a purely rational and scientific analysis of the gospels and have used here is not C.S. Lewis, for instance, though I've read all he's written: though by saying it's not I'm not denigrating C.S. Lewis. It's just that, for instance, he did come to and wrote about Christianity from a very personal perspective, a touching and convincing one. But for my purposes, and my purposes here in this discussion, I would not invoke him. I from the very beginning of this discussion have posited that intriguing to say the least conclusions have been reached by dispassionate scholars who have tackled the gospel accounts, and yes, and especially, the exorcisms, miracles, and healings with rational methods. Even Egyptologists condemn the Horus stuff. Anyway, I really like this forum, and I really do respect both of you genuinely and am not trying to attack you personally. Kim (Boo-hoo, mom, they're picking on me, and not playing fair!)

 

[mike]

The discussion is did jesus exist, thus any reference to a previous myth with uncanny parallels is germain imo

As to the Massey argument ive spoken with Acharya S author of the Christ conspiracy about this. This is her reply

This disparagement represents calumny, slander and libel by people who know nothing about the subject. I have addressed these contentions extensively in my book Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection and shown them to be inaccurate and just plain wrong. You certainly may respond with the information on my website concerning Gerald Massey as well as the individual contentions regarding the Egyptian religion as found in my book. I have an excerpt about Gerald Massey specifically, which can likewise be found on my site:

http://stellarhousepublishing.com/christinegypt.html

http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/w ... assey.html

The reasons for these lies and inaccuracies are multifold but need to be kept in mind when dealing with people who make these false claims. Firstly, many who make these claims are Christians who do not want this information to be true for obvious reasons. In general, such individuals are VERY ignorant about the world's cultures, and they themselves know next to nothing about these subjects but must rely on their often equally fanatical scholars, including Ward Gasque, who appears to be a Christian.

Secondly, Egyptologists themselves are often unfortunately very ignorant because they have become so specialized they don't even know what other Egyptologists are saying. In CIE, I use the writings of MANY very credentialed, highly respected Egyptologists themselves. So, those who are pronouncing this material "fringe nonsense" are simply ignorant of it. They need to be pinned down as to exactly what is "fringe nonsense" and then shown where these respected Egyptologists themselves have discussed it. For example, the point about Isis's virginity is well established, but Egyptologists themselves are ignorant of the study of virgin mothers in antiquity and the evidence that Isis was yet another incarnation of the cosmic parthenogenetrix. You can find more about Isis as a virgin mother here:

http://freethoughtnation.com/contributi ... gin-mother

Just as the naysaying Egyptologists and others are ignorant of and wrong about Isis's virginity, so they are likewise ignorant of the other germane motifs outlined by Massey, Harpur, et al. They simply have not studied them, and their academic snobbery and arrogance prevent them from even entertaining the ideas. Not so with earlier scholars who continually display a higher level of critical thinking in this subject matter. Today's Western scholars are frequently funded by vested interest Christian schools that completely discourage this line of thinking. That's the bottom line, unfortunately.

In addition, those atheists who object to this material are often equally as ignorant about the subject as are the Christians. They have not read my work, but they will lazily and ignorantly dismiss it - again, this is a sign of their own laziness, not of the incorrectness of the material.

As you will see from my voluminous book Christ in Egypt, Gerald Massey was largely correct. Those who refuse to read my book should be discounted in their opinion as to the subject, since they are missing a huge amount of information I have provided therein. If they do not want to know this information, fine, but they should then step aside and be quiet when others DO want to know it and not remain in the same ignorant state.

Cheers - and good luck!

D.M. Murdock/Acharya S

Is Jesus a Remake of Osiris? | The Lord of Egypt

And as Stonehart has pointed out, its not the only example of the same "elements" that make up the jesus myth, being present in earlier myths. The church even acknowledges this with the explanation the devil did it.

The romans were good record keepers,

There is no contemporary record of jesus having ever existed.

The Romans produced Acta Diurna (or government announcement bulletins) carved in metal or stone and posted in public places. None mention jesus.

The nearest to any contemporary account was written at least a generation after jesus is supposed to have died. This account, by Josephus, is universally regarded by scholars as a Medieval forgery (and not a very good one).

All other accounts are even more distant and again unsubstantiated by any cross-referencing or varifiable fact. Just 100 years after jesus' alleged execution, Pliny was asked by the Roman Emperor to report on the christians and whether jesus was a real person or a god. Pliny investigated and reported back that even the christians had no evidence that jesus ever lived but that it didn't matter because they *believed* that he did.

The Romans were meticulous record-keepers and recorded a vast amount of detail right down to the cost of repairing a shoe (as evidenced by archaelogical discoveries at Vindalanda, a Roman fort on Hadrian's Wall, Northern England). Yet not one Roman saw fit to mention a spell-binding orator who was rousing up thousands of Jews or that he was executed. This is like no-one writing a single word about the life and death of Gandhi or John F. Kennedy.

There is also considerable circumstantial evidence that jesus did *not* exist:-
+ jesus' entire life story can be found reflected in earlier (pagan) religions that existed in the Middle East and Mediterranean areas in the centuries before christianity. Everything from the star in the East and worship by kings, through miracles and twelve disciples to betrayal, execution and resurrection can be found in these earlier religions - not one detail of jesus' life is original

+ jesus is a close copy of earlier pagan gods, notably Mithras and Horus. Mithras was worshipped by the Persians as The God of Light some 600 years BCE and was later adopted by the Romans. The Temple of Mithras in Rome was where the Vatican now stands.

they even had a census every year, and people had to return to their home town to be counted.

Augustus is known to have taken a census of Roman citizens at least three times, in 28 B.C.E., 8 B.C.E., and C.E. 14.[10] There is also evidence that censuses were taken at regular intervals during his reign in the provinces of Egypt and Sicily, important because of their wealthy estates and supply of grain.[11] In the provinces, the main goals of a census of non-citizens were taxation and military service.[12] The earliest such provincial census was taken in Gaul in 27 B.C.E.; during the reign of Augustus, the imposition of the census provoked disturbances and resistance.[13]

And yet..... not one single roman record mentions something as significant as a bloke wandering around raising the dead..............
You'd think that would have played merry hell with their census .......

 

[stonehart]

Hey, Mike and Stonehart. Boo hoo. You two, really, are not playing fair, and are not addressing the issue we're discussing. Red herrings is a vast understatement. Again, my thoughts off the top of my head. That whole horus, isis, osiris list is simply not true, it's an old saw I've seen before, and extended in even more belabored form elsewhere and long ago. It's part of an "endeavor" called Christianity as myth, and it includes your last post, too, Stonehart. True, it's got a gotcha quality that closes the door pretty tightly. Nothing against you guys personally, I hasten to add. Egyptologists hold that Horus stuff in the highest disdain. It was pushed by some guy named Massey, I think (spelling?). I've read it all before, and it sidetracks a discussion on the issue of the gospels. You know, in many ways, you and Stonehart are advancing stuff that in and of itself is not only false on the face of it, but even if certain parts are true, and no doubt if dissected certain details of what you present are true, do you ask yourselves if, really, what you are advancing makes any more sense than sticking to the topic of the gospels and Jesus and what the evangelists wrote about Jesus? Again, you are not playing fair, even in my opinion with yourselves. You two are too intelligent to let yourselves off so easily and categorically. Oh well, Stonehart is very wrong. Kim cannot explain it all. I just know that in this discussion I have written off the top of my head, things I have personally studied extensively, and with a very hard and rational frame of mind. I've mentioned things that can be read and can more. What I've on a purely rational and scientific analysis of the gospels and have used here is not C.S. Lewis, for instance, though I've read all he's written: though by saying it's not I'm not denigrating C.S. Lewis. It's just that, for instance, he did come to and wrote about Christianity from a very personal perspective, a touching and convincing one. But for my purposes, and my purposes here in this discussion, I would not invoke him. I from the very beginning of this discussion have posited that intriguing to say the least conclusions have been reached by dispassionate scholars who have tackled the gospel accounts, and yes, and especially, the exorcisms, miracles, and healings with rational methods. Even Egyptologists condemn the Horus stuff. Anyway, I really like this forum, and I really do respect both of you genuinely and am not trying to attack you personally. Kim (Boo-hoo, mom, they're picking on me, and not playing fair!)

Boo hoo?

Let me see I survived countless dissertations, group reviews, deadlines and grumpy professors so I take nothing you say personally at all. After years of working in and around this very topic I simply do not care enough to argue with you on it. What I see Mike doing is simply throwing information on the table for all to look at and I like that.

Anyway have fun with this I may come in and out of it from time to time but right now I have a concert PA system to map out for early next week.

 

[mike]

In his First Apology (21), Christian father Justin Martyr acknowledged the similarities between the older Pagan gods/religions and Christianity, when he attempted to demonstrate, in the face of ridicule, that Christianity was no more ridiculous than the earlier myths:
ANALOGIES TO THE HISTORY OF CHRIST. And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter. For you know how many sons your esteemed writers ascribed to Jupiter: Mercury, the interpreting word and teacher of all; Aesculapius, who, though he was a great physician, was struck by a thunderbolt, and so ascended to heaven; and Bacchus too, after he had been torn limb from limb; and Hercules, when he had committed himself to the flames to escape his toils; and the sons of Leda, and Dioscuri; and Perseus, son of Danae; and Bellerophon, who, though sprung from mortals, rose to heaven on the horse Pegasus. For what shall I say of Ariadne, and those who, like her, have been declared to be set among the stars? And what of the emperors who die among yourselves, whom you deem worthy of deification, and in whose behalf you produce someone who swears he has seen the burning Caesar rise to heaven from the funeral pyre?31

In making these comparisons between Christianity and its predecessor Paganism, however, Justin sinisterly spluttered:

...it having reached the devil's ears that the prophets had foretold that Christ would come for the purpose of tormenting the wicked in fire, he set the heathen poets to bring forward a great many who should be called (and were called) sons of Jove. The Devil laying his scheme in this, to get men to imagine that the true history of Christ was of the same character as those prodigious fables and poetic stories.32
Aping these purported "prophecies," the devil anticipated Christ and caused human poets, priests and mythographers to create superhuman saviors and sons of God with practically the same characteristics. Here is a clear admission that these mythical motifs long pre-dated the Christian era and that the gods' "lives" were very similar to that alleged of Jesus. This contention is backed up by numerous artifacts from the ancient world, including books, inscriptions, statuary, wall carvings and paintings, as well as oral traditions and so on.
The Jesus story evidently incorporated elements from the tales of other deities recorded in a widespread area, such as many of the following world saviors and "sons of God," most or all of whom predate the Christian myth, and a number of whom were "crucified," executed or suffered otherwise, among other similarities to the gospel story.

 

[mike]

With genuine affection and respect Kim, i dont have any emotional investment in this topic, any more than i would were we discussing why two plus two equals four.
I simply present the data that leads me to my conclusions.

To the question was jesus a real person/son of god

I say No, he wasnt.

1: It can be shown that the bible and gospels are full of self contradicting passages, that these "errors" are indicative of the fallible word of man, and not the perfect word of god, as such imo it does not constitute proof in any way jesus was real

2: Elements of the christ myth are reflected in earlier accounts and myths with such clear parallels that the rehash or cut and paste hypothesis seems the logical answer
The church admits and has an answer for this reality (the devil did it)

3:No contemporary accounts by the historians of the day mention a god/man raising the dead, an act that would at any time merit reporting

4:Judaism itself, the root religion from which the christian sect springs rejects the notion

Jews have traditionally seen Jesus as one of a number of false messiahs who have appeared throughout history.[1] Jesus is viewed as having been the most influential, and consequently the most damaging, of all false messiahs.[2] However, since the universal Jewish belief is that the Messiah has not yet come and that the Messianic Age is not yet present, the total rejection of Jesus as either messiah or deity in Judaism has never been a central issue for Judaism. At the heart of Judaism are the Torah, its commandments, the Tanakh, and ethical monotheism such as in the Shema — all of which predated Jesus.

Judaism has never accepted any of the claimed fulfillments of prophecy that Christianity attributes to Jesus. Judaism also forbids the worship of a person as a form of idolatry, since the central belief of Judaism is the absolute unity and singularity of God.[3][4]

Jewish eschatology holds that the coming of the Messiah will be associated with a specific series of events that have not yet occurred, including the return of Jews to their homeland and the rebuilding of The Temple, a Messianic Age of peace[5] and understanding during which "the knowledge of God" fills the earth,[6] and since none of these events occurred during the lifetime of Jesus (nor have they occurred afterwards), he is not a candidate for messiah.

These facts are not designed to elicit a boo hoo response from the reader, but simply explain why i subscribe to the null conclusion to the question did jesus exist

 

[mike]

And of course we have easter..............

Is Easter PAGAN?

The name "Easter" is merely the slightly changed English spelling of the name of the ancient Assyrian goddess Ishtar, pronounced by the Assyrians exactly as we pronounce "Easter." The Babylonian name of this goddess was Astarte, consort of Baal, the Sun god, whose worship is denounced by The Almighty in the Bible as the most abominable of all pagan idolatry.
Look up the word "Easter" in Webster's dictionary. You will find: "AS. (Anglo-Saxon), from name of an old Teuton goddess of spring".
In the large volume Hastings Bible Dictionary, only six lines are given to the name "Easter" because it occurs only once in the Bible and that only in the King James translation.

Hence our modern day use of fertility symbols like eggs and bunnies...........

Easter Sun-Rise Services
You think Easter sunrise services are beautiful? LISTEN! God was showing the prophet Ezekiel the sins of His people in a vision--- a prophecy for today! "Turn thee yet again," said God, :and thou shalt see greater abominations than these" (Ezekiel had just been shown, in a vision, idol-worship among professing people of God). "And he brought me (in vision) into the inner court of the Eternal's house, and behold... between the porch and the alter were about five and twenty men, with... their faces toward the east: and they worshiped the sun towards the east. Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing ...that they commit the ABOMINATIONS which they commit here?... Therefore, will I deal IN FURY: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them!" (Ezekiel 8:15-18.)
Do you grasp what this most abominable thing is?
It is the same identical thing millions are doing every Easter Sunday morning--- the sun-rise services--- standing with their faces towards the east, as the SUN is rising, in a mythical idolatrous consort goddess Easter. Yes, deceived into believing this is Christian, millions practice every Easter the identical form of the ancient SUN-WORSHIP of the Sun-god BAAL! Throughout the Bible this is revealed as the MOST ABOMINABLE of all idolatry in the sight of the Eternal Creator!

Just as dec is the feast of saturnalia

Saturnalia was an ancient Roman festival in honor of the deity Saturn originally held December 17 and later expanded with unofficial festivities through December 23. The holiday was celebrated with a sacrifice at the Temple of Saturn in the Roman Forum and a public banquet, followed by private gift-giving, continual partying, and a carnival atmosphere that overturned Roman social norms: gambling was permitted, and masters provided table service for their slaves.[1] The poet Catullus called it "the best of days."[2]
In Roman mythology, Saturn was an agricultural deity who reigned over the world in the Golden Age, when humans enjoyed the spontaneous bounty of the earth without labor in a state of social egalitarianism. The revelries of Saturnalia were supposed to reflect the conditions of the lost mythical age, not all of them desirable. The Greek equivalent was the Kronia.[3]
Although probably the best-known Roman holiday, Saturnalia as a whole is not described from beginning to end in any single ancient source. Modern understanding of the festival is pieced together from several accounts dealing with various aspects.[4] The Saturnalia was the dramatic setting of the multivolume work of that name by Macrobius, a Latin writer from late antiquity who is the major source for the holiday. In one of the interpretations in Macrobius's work, Saturnalia is a festival of light leading to the winter solstice, with the abundant presence of candles symbolizing the quest for knowledge and truth.[5] The renewal of light and the coming of the new year was celebrated in the later Roman Empire at the Dies Natalis of Sol Invictus, the "Birthday of the Unconquerable Sun," on December 25.[6]
The popularity of Saturnalia continued into the 3rd and 4th centuries AD, and as the Roman Empire came under Christian rule, some of its customs may have influenced the seasonal celebrations surrounding Christmas and the New Year

The video i posted a while back shows why dec 25 is the sun/son's birthday

if you watch nothing else in this clip watch from the 6:00 min mark

#!

And thus it was said the sun died on the cross was dead 3 days and was resurrected again

The astrological parralels with the jesus story are irrefutable and logical

Gods son = sun god.................

 

[mike]

Slightly off topic but it goes to my bible isnt a good source for proof.

LOl at 6:25 in the last one "not even in nevada"

 

[Kim323]

Oooo boy, now you've really gone off the deep end! Acharya s indeed! Have you actually read any of her books? Now tell me the truth!? She is sloppy and pseudoscientific, mike. I've read several of her books, and they made me shake my head in wonderment. What sloppy slop, and I won't even begin to get into details. Silly, absurd stuff. And, of course, this is my opinion. Are you actually contacting her about my posts in this discussion? Her "works" cannot remotely be compared to, for one, john p. Meier's a marginal Jew. You wouldn't entertain actually reading something I've suggested, I guess. I do believe this discussion is at an end for me. I mention Massey as the guy pushing the mythos stuff, and you really ran off to acharya s? I recommend you read some things for yourself.

 

[mike]

Oooo boy, now you've really gone off the deep end! Acharya s indeed! Have you actually read any of her books? Now tell me the truth!? She is sloppy and pseudoscientific, mike. I've read several of her books, and they made me shake my head in wonderment. What sloppy slop, and I won't even begin to get into details. Silly, absurd stuff. And, of course, this is my opinion. Are you actually contacting her about my posts in this discussion? Her "works" cannot remotely be compared to, for one, john p. Meier's a marginal Jew. You wouldn't entertain actually reading something I've suggested, I guess. I do believe this discussion is at an end for me. I mention Massey as the guy pushing the mythos stuff, and you really ran off to acharya s? I recommend you read some things for yourself.

Yes i have her books, and think she makes a good case for her hypothesis,
No i didnt contact her over you, but i have had the massey stuff come up before, so the email i reposted here is a few years old

Using phrases like "ran off" to paint a picture is unhelpful to reasoned debate.
The reality is i didnt even get out of my chair, such is the nature of the digital age

Ive known Ms Murdock for many years , we have been facebook friends and penpals a long time

You offer nothing of substance to back the claim its sloppy slop, silly absurd stuff, indeed you say you will offer no such details.
Thats more the substance of a rant than a debate.

I see this all the time, opinion born of faith rather than facts.

Its like insisting 2 plus 2 equals 7 with no detail as to why this is so.

If i were to insist 2 plus 2 equals four, do you really think answers like its sloppy slop, silly absurd stuff, and I won't even begin to get into details makes your case ?

Of course it doesnt

 

[mike]

But again i stand by the data i present, which is much of the modern christian mythos, can be shown to be nothing more than rebadged rehashed older solar myth.

On a stela dating from the 18th Dynasty (1570-1070 bce) appears a hymn to Osiris that, per Christian Egyptologist Budge's translation, reads in part:

Thou hast made this earth by thy hand, and the waters thereof, and the wind thereof, the herb thereof, all the cattle thereof, all the winged fowl thereof, all the fish thereof, all the creeping things thereof, and all the four-footed beasts thereof.

The similarities between this passage as translated and the biblical creation account written centuries later are striking. In Genesis (1:24), "God" creates the earth and says:

Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds; cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds.

It is not surprising that Genesis and other biblical texts, concepts and stories are largely Egyptian in origin, especially since Israel and Egypt are in such proximity. The historical, literary and archaeological evidence of the influence of Egypt on the Levant is abundant and includes the presence of Osiris in Israel. In an article in the Biblical Archaeology Review (5-6/00) entitled, "What's an Egyptian Temple Doing in Jerusalem?" Gabriel Barkay states:

The name of Osiris appears on an inscribed stele fragment of reddish Nubia sandstone discovered at Hazor in northern Israel and on stelae found at Deir el-Balah, in the Gaza Strip. It seems that this Egyptian deity was especially popular in Canaan, when it was under Egyptian domination.

Artifacts and historical records prove Egyptian presence and influence in the Levant, prior to the rise of the Hebrew/Israelite/Jewish people, and it is apparent that the Canaanite and Israelite peoples were infused with the Osiris myth, which thus affected their own religions, including the Judaic offshoot, Christianity. Like Jesus, Osiris was once believed to have incarnated as a human savior who died and was resurrected for the good of mankind:

 

[mike]

Its not uncommon in these debates to get unsubstantiated comments like

Egyptologists hold that Horus stuff in the highest disdain. It was pushed by some guy named Massey, I think

Without a single link to back the claim.

So lets look at massey

In exploring the various Egyptian influences upon the Christian religion, one name frequently encountered is that of lay Egyptologist Gerald Massey(1828-1907). Born in abject poverty in England, Gerald Massey was almost entirely self-taught; yet, he was able to write and lecture about several subjects with tremendous erudition and authority. Despite his lack of formal education, Massey could read several languages, including not only English but also French, Latin, Greek and evidently Hebrew and Egyptian to a certain degree.

Massey was fortunate enough to live during an exciting time when Egyptology was in its heyday, with the discovery in 1799 of the Rosetta Stoneand the subsequent decipherment of hieroglyphs in 1822 by Champollion. This monumental development allowed for the exposure to light of the fascinating Egyptian culture and religion, meaning that before that time no one could adequately read the Egyptian texts, which Massey ended up spending a considerable portion of his life studying and interpreting, and relatively little was known about the religion, for which Massey possessed a keen sense of comprehension.

In his detailed and careful analysis of the Egyptian religion, the pioneer Massey extensively utilized the Egyptian Book of the Dead--which was termed "The Ritual" by Champollion, a convention followed by Massey and others but since abandoned--as well as several other ancient Egyptian sources, including the Pyramid Texts and assorted other funeral texts and stele. Massey quite evidently understood the Egyptian spirituality and was able to present it in a highly sound and scientific manner.

In these intensive and meticulous efforts, Massey studied the work of the best minds of the time--all towering figures within Egyptology, especially during Massey’s era, when most of them were alive and some were familiar with his work. These celebrated authorities in Egyptology whose works Massey studied and utilized included: Sir Dr. Budge; Dr. Brugsch-Bey; Jean-François Champollion; Dr. Eugene Lefébure; Dr. Karl Richard Lepsius; Sir Dr. Gaston Maspero; Dr. Henri Edouard Naville; Sir Dr. William Flinders Petrie; Dr. Thomas Joseph Pettigrew; Sir Renouf; le vicomte de Rougé; Dr. Samuel Sharpe; and Sir Dr. John Gardner Wilkinson, among many other scholars in a wide variety of fields. As other examples, Massey also used the work of Sir Dr. J. Norman Lockyer, the physicist and royal English astronomer who was friends with Budge and knew Egypt well, along with that of Dr. Charles Piazzi Smyth, royal Scottish astronomer and professor of Astronomy at the University of Edinburgh. Massey further studied the work of Reverend Dr. Archibald Sayce, professor of Comparative Philology at Oxford, as well as that of famous mythologist Sir Dr. James George Frazer, although he did not agree with their conclusions. He likewise cited the work of Francois Lenormant, professor of Archaeology at the National Library of France, as well as that of comparative theologian and Oxford professor Dr. Max Müller, philosopher and Jesus biographer Dr. Ernest Renan, and Christian monuments expert Rev. Dr. John Patterson Lundy.

Gerald Massey was very influenced by the work of Dr. Samuel Birch (1813-1885), archaeologist, Egyptologist and Keeper of the Department of Oriental Antiquities in the British Museum. The creator of the first alphabetically arranged Egyptian dictionary, Dr. Birch also was the founder of the prestigious and influential Society of Biblical Archaeology, to which belonged many other notables in the fields of archaeology, Assyriology, Egyptology and so on. Much of this eye-opening work on comparative religion, in fact, emanated from this august body of erudite and credentialed individuals. Birch held many other titles and honors, including from Cambridge and Oxford Universities. His numerous influential works on Egypt, including the first English translation of the Book of the Dead, were cited for decades in scholarly publications.

In the "Introduction" to his book The Natural Genesis, Gerald Massey writes:

The German Egyptologist, Herr Pietschmann…reviewed the "Book of the Beginnings"... The writer has taken the precaution all through of getting his fundamental facts in Egyptology verified by one of the foremost of living authorities, Dr. Samuel Birch, to whom he returns his heartiest acknowledgements. (Massey, NG, viii)​

Dr. Richard Pietschmann was a professor of Egyptology at the University of Göttingen, an impressive "peer reviewer" for one of Massey's early works on Egypt. By verifying his "fundamental facts" with Birch, Massey appears to be saying that his work was also reviewed by Birch, with whom he enjoyed a personal relationship expressed in his letters. Indeed, following this statement in The Natural Genesis, in his "Retort" to various attacks he endured, Massey remarked:

As I also say in my preface [to The Natural Genesis] I took the precaution of consulting Dr. Samuel Birch for many years after he had offered, in his own words, to "keep me straight" as to my facts, obtainable from Egyptian records. He answered my questions, gave me his advice, discussed variant renderings, read whatever proofs I sent him, and corrected me where he saw I was wrong. (Massey, Gerald Massey's Lectures, 251)​

It is evident from these remarks that a significant portion of Massey's work was "peer reviewed" by the eminent Dr. Samuel Birch, a remarkable development that should be factored into the assessment of Massey’s work. With such developments, it becomes evident that it is not the quality of Massey’s work at issue, since it is obviously sound, but that his conclusions as to the nonhistoricity and unoriginality of the Christian religion do not sit well with his detractors. This latter fact is critically important to bear in mind when studying Massey's works, especially since he largely discovered and developed parallels between the Egyptian and Christian religions, crucial data that may have otherwise been left to lie fallow based on occupational considerations by the vested-interested professionals upon whose work Massey relied.

Massey was likewise personally friendly with Sir Lockyer (1836-1920), as well as Dr. Birch's protégé Assyriologist Dr. Theophilus Goldridge Pinches (1856-1934). Naturally, among these various scholars of his era, Massey also had his critics, including, apparently, the devout Roman Catholic Renouf, who evidently was a mysterious anonymous Egyptologist who spewed calumny and vitriol at Massey, essentially calling him a lunatic. That Massey was so well known as to draw such attention and ire speaks to his efficacy, rather than his incompetence. As he himself said in his retort to such vituperation, "Such damnation is dirt cheap! Also, the time has passed for denunciation to be mistaken for disproof." (Massey, GML, 250) In his "Retort," Massey also made the following observation, which readers of this present work might wish to keep in mind as well: "I had already warned my readers that they must expect little help from those Egyptologists and Assyriologists who are bibliolaters first and scholars afterwards. Bibliolatry puts out the eye of scholarship or causes confirmed strabismus," the latter term referring to a vision disorder. "Bibliolatry," of course, refers to "Bible worship," while "bibliolaters" are "Bible worshippers."

In his scholarly works on Egypt, in addition to the available Egyptian sources, Gerald Massey utilized numerous other ancient texts, including Judeo-Christian writings such as the Bible, as well as those of early Church fathers such as Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Eusebius, Epiphanius and Jerome. Massey also cited non-Christian, Jewish and Gnostic writers such as Herodotus, Philo, Pausanias and Valentinus, along with writings such as the Talmud and the Hindu Puranas. Having taught himself to read not only English but also several other languages including Egyptian hieroglyphs as well as Sanskrit, providing an extensive comparison between these two languages, Massey scrutinized and interpreted the texts and monuments for himself, such as the Book of the Dead, as well as the famous zodiacs in the Temple of Dendera and the "Nativity Scene" at the Temple of Luxor, texts and images that predated the "Christian era" by centuries to millennia. Regarding his abilities with the hieroglyphs, Massey states:

…although I am able to read the hieroglyphics, nothing offered to you is based on my translation. I work too warily for that! The transcription and literal renderings of the hieroglyphic texts herein employed are by scholars of indisputable authority. There is no loophole of escape that way. (Massey, GML, 1)​

Thus, while Massey did read hieroglyphs and therefore worked with primary sources, knowing the contentiousness of the subject, he purposely did not rely on his own translations and interpretations but consulted repeatedly with "scholars of indisputable authority," in other words, those previously mentioned, including Dr. Samuel Birch, with whom Massey conferred personally on much of his work.

Massey was not only skilled at interpreting the Egyptian data in a highly intelligent and unusual manner, but, having been raised a Protestant Christian compelled to memorize whole sections of the Bible, he was also quite knowledgeable about the scriptures and was able to see the numerous and significant correlations between the Christian and Egyptian religions, or the "mythos and ritual," as he styled them.

Clearly a man who was well educated in his field and who relied on peer review for his conclusions.

he purposely did not rely on his own translations and interpretations but consulted repeatedly with "scholars of indisputable authority," in other words, those previously mentioned, including Dr. Samuel Birch, with whom Massey conferred personally on much of his work.

As I also say in my preface [to The Natural Genesis] I took the precaution of consulting Dr. Samuel Birch for many years after he had offered, in his own words, to "keep me straight" as to my facts, obtainable from Egyptian records. He answered my questions, gave me his advice, discussed variant renderings, read whatever proofs I sent him, and corrected me where he saw I was wrong. (Massey, Gerald Massey's Lectures, 251)

…although I am able to read the hieroglyphics, nothing offered to you is based on my translation. I work too warily for that! The transcription and literal renderings of the hieroglyphic texts herein employed are by scholars of indisputable authority. There is no loophole of escape that way. (Massey, GML, 1

But at the end of the day the same astrotheological themes in the christ story are found in many not just the eqyptian cultures.

Buddha
Although most people think of Buddha as one person who lived around 500 BCE, like Jesus the character commonly portrayed as Buddha can also be demonstrated to be a compilation of god men, legends and sayings of various holy men both preceding and succeeding the period attributed to the Buddha.38The Buddha character has the following in common with the Christ figure:
• Like Jesus, Buddha was a divine being, pre-existent in "heaven" before taking birth. 39
• Buddha was born of the virgin Maya, who was considered the "Queen of Heaven." 40
• He was of royal descent and was a prince. 41
• At his birth appeared a "marvelous and powerful light." 42
• After Buddha was born, a "slaughter of the infants was ordered by the tyrant Bimbasara..." 43
• When Buddha was a babe, a saint prophesied he would be great, as did Simeon concerning Christ (Lk 2:25-35). 44
• As a child he taught his teachers. 45
• Buddha was presented in the temple, where "the idols fell down before him."46
• He began his quest for enlightenment at age 29. 47
• He crushed a serpent's head. 48
• Buddha was tempted by Mara, the evil one, who offered him "universal dominion." 49
• Sakyamuni Buddha had 12 disciples 50 and traveled about preaching.51
• He reformed and prohibited idolatry, 52 was a "sower of the word,"53 and preached "the establishment of a kingdom of righteousness."54
• He performed miracles and wonders, healed the sick, 55 fed 500 men from a "small basket of cakes,"56 and helps a disciple walk on water.57
• He preached a "sermon on the mount" 58 and taught chastity, temperance, tolerance, compassion, love, and the equality of all.59
• He was transfigured on a mount. 60
• Buddha was received in his native city with a triumphal welcome. 61
• He was betrayed by a disciple, who led others to kill him. 62
• Some of his persecutors became his disciples. 63
• A tremendous earthquake occurred upon Buddha's death. 64
• Buddha died, 65 suffered for three days in hell, 66 and was resurrected.67
• He attained Nirvana or "heaven." 68
• Buddha was considered the "Good Shepherd," 69 the "Carpenter,"70 the "Infinite and Everlasting"71 and the "Great Physician."72
• He was the "Savior of the World" 73 and the "Light of the World."74
Buddha's Birth:
According to ancient Buddhist legend, the sage's mother was a "chaste wife, into whom miraculously entered in the shape of a white elephant the future Buddha, who subsequently came out of her right side."75 Sanskrit scholars Dr. Edward W. Hopkins states that this miraculous birth story undoubtedly dates to "as early as the third century B.C. and perhaps earlier."76 Indeed, the miraculous births of Buddha, as well as his temptation, are carved on monuments that date to 150 BCE or older.77
In the fourth century of the Common Era, Church father St. Jerome (Adversus Jovinianum 1.42) discussed Buddha specifically as having been born through the side of a virgin:
Among the Gymnosophists of India, the belief has been handed down from generation to generation as authentic that a virgin gave birth to Buddha, the founder of their religion, out of her side.78
Jerome's words—"handed down from generation to generation" and "opinionis auctoritas traditur"—indicate not that the motif had been recently copied from Christianity by Indian monks or priests but that it was a tradition of some age.
Buddhist Crucifixion:
In the texts, we find the curious motif of a Buddhist figure having been "crucified." In this regard, concerning the Buddhist influence on the gospel story, scholar of Buddhism and Sanskrit Dr. Christian Lindtner writes:
The Sanskrit manuscripts prove without a shadow of doubt:
Everything that Jesus says or does was already said or done by the Buddha.
Jesus, therefore, is a mere literary fiction.
• The Last Supper was the Last Supper of the Buddha.
• Baptism in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit was baptism in the name of the Buddha, the Dharma and the Samgha.
• All the miracles performed by Jesus had already been performed by the Buddha.
• The twelve disciples of Jesus were, in fact, the twelve disciples of the Buddha.
• It was king Gautama—not Jesus—who was crucified.79
• It was Tathâgata—not Jesus—who was resurrected....
• There is nothing in the Gospels, no person, no event that cannot be traced back to cognate persons, events or circumstances in the Buddhist gospels.
• ...Jesus is a Buddha disguised as a new Jewish legislator, teacher, Messiah and king of Israel.
The Gospels, forming the foundation of Christianity, are, therefore, typical Buddhist literature, fiction, designed for missionaries whose language was Greek.
Concerning this purported "crucifixion" or impalement of an important Buddhist figure, related in, among others, a Buddhist text dating to the first century BCE—the Samghabhedavastu/ Mahâparinirvâna sutra80 —Dr. Zacharias P. Thundy states:
This is the story of Gautama, a holy man, who was wrongfully condemned to die on the cross for murdering the courtesan Bhadra. Gautama is impaled on the cross, and his mentor Krishna Dvapayana visits him and enters into a long dialogue, at the end of which he dies at the place of skulls after engendering two offspring, the progenitors of the Ikshavaku Dynasty.81
As is evident from the remarks of Dr. Burkhard Scherer, a "classical Philologist, Indologiest and Lecturer in Religious Studies (Buddhist and Hindu Studies)" at Canterbury Christ Church University, the fact that there is "massive" Buddhist influence in the gospels has been well known among the elite scholars for a long time. Says Dr. Scherer:
...it is very important to draw attention on the fact that there is (massive) Buddhist influence in the Gospels....
Since more than hundred years Buddhist influence in the Gospels has been known and acknowledged by scholars from both sides. Just recently, Duncan McDerret published his excellent The Bible and the Buddhist (Sardini, Bornato [Italy] 2001). With McDerret, I am convinced that there are many Buddhist narratives in the Gospels.

 

[mike]

Mithra, Sun God of Persia:
The worship of Mithra precedes the Common Era by several centuries. In fact, the cult of Mithra was, shortly before the true Christian era, "the most popular and widely spread 'Pagan' religion of the times."95 Indeed, numerous Mithraic monuments have been found stretching from Asia Minor to Great Britain.96
Although Mithraism as it developed in the Roman Empire is different from its Perso-Indian roots, its major motifs and traditions can be traced to a pre-Christian body of knowledge that is largely astrotheological in nature, as demonstrated by Dr. David Ulansey in The Origins of the Mithraic Mysteries.
Mithra has the following in common with the Christ character:
• Mithra was born on December 25th97 of the virgin Anahita.98
• The babe was wrapped in swaddling clothes, placed in a manger 99 and attended by shepherds.100
• He was considered a great traveling teacher and master. 101
• He had 12 companions or "disciples." 102
• He performed miracles. 103
• He was buried in a tomb. 104
• He was considered "the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah."105
• Mithra is omniscient, as he "hears all, sees all, and knows all: none can deceive him." 106
• He was identified with both the Lion 107 and the Lamb.108
• His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ. 109
• His religion had a Eucharist or "Lord's Supper." 110
• Mithra "sets his marks on the foreheads of his soldiers." 111
Mithra’s "Virgin" Birth?
As concerns the debate regarding the Perso-Roman god Mithra’s "virgin birth," not a few scholars and writers of Persian/Iranian extract have discussed the Persian goddess of love Anahita as Mithra's virgin mother. Presumably, these individuals know more about their ancient traditions than do modern Christian apologists, who emphasize Mithra’s rock birth and deny the virgin-mother motif. For example, Dr. Badi Badiozamani says that a "person" named "Mehr" or Mithra was "born of a virgin named Nahid Anahita ("immaculate") and that "the worship of Mithra and Anahita, the virgin mother of Mithra, was well-known in the Achaemenian period [558-330 BCE]..."112 Philosophy professor Mohammed Ali Amir-Moezzi states: "Dans le mithraïsme, ainsi que le mazdéisme populaire, (A)Nāhīd, mère de Mithra/Mehr, est. vierge"113—"In Mithraism, as in popular Mazdaism, Anahid, the mother of Mithra, is a virgin."
Mithra and the Twelve:
Mithra surrounded by the 12 "companions" is a motif found on many Mithraic remains and representing the 12 signs of the zodiac, which are sometimes depicted as humans. The comparison of this common motif with Jesus and the 12 has been made on many occasions, including in an extensive study entitled, "Mithras and Christ: some iconographical similarities," by Professor A. Deman in Mithraic Studies.114
Many of these Mithraic parallels were remarked upon by the Church fathers, who were flummoxed by them and who blamed them on the prescient devil.

The same "elements" are found in the Krishna and Prometheus story

Again the apologists answer is the devil did it

Conclusion:

As Walker says, "Scholars' efforts to eliminate paganism from the Gospels in order to find a historical Jesus have proved as hopeless as searching for a core in an onion."The "gospel" story of Jesus is not a factual portrayal of a historical "master" who walked the earth 2,000 years ago. It is a myth built upon other myths and god men, who in turn were personifications of the ubiquitous sun god mythos.

The Christ of the gospels is in no sense an historical personage or a supreme model of humanity, a hero who strove, and suffered, and failed to save the world by his death. It is impossible to establish the existence of an historical character even as an impostor. For such a one the two witnesses, astronomical mythology and Gnosticism, completely prove an alibi. The Christ is a popular lay-figure that never lived, and a lay-figure of Pagan origin; a lay-figure that was once the Ram and afterwards the Fish; a lay-figure that in human form was the portrait and image of a dozen different gods.

 

[mike]

But do you want to know the single greatest reason i reject the bible.
Its a single passage

Tim 2:12

But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet, 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve." (1 Tim. 2:12-13).
Should women be pastors and elders? There are those who would answer yes. But Paul says in 1 Tim. 2:12 that he doesn't allow a woman "to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet." Paul anchors his reason in the created order, "For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve." In other words, this is not a culturally based opinion. It is a doctrinal statement.

Nevertheless, there are counter arguments about these verses held by some Christians who assert that women can teach and exercise authority over men. Let's take a look at some of the arguments -- right after we examine the context

1 Tim. 2:12-13 and women pastors and elders. | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

I cant stand sexism or any of the other isms like racism or speciesism

Institutionalised sexism or any of the other isms leave me cold

The book is full of atrocitys countenancing slavery, incest , the murder of innocents, all of which i can reconcile as historical anachronsims.... but this is a NT rule and i for one will not ever see why being a woman is grounds for this sort of discrimination.

The very idea expressed in tim 2:12 is as offensive as it is outdated. Humanity can do better

 

[CitizenK]

I haven't read "all" of the posts made on this subject, but I don't think I need to in order to state my findings on Jesus the man....the Bible (new testament) that was written about this man actually took place some 200-400 yrs. after th eman supposedly lived. There is no real proof of his existence in what I have found and trust me, like Trainedobserver, I had bought this bit hook, line, and sinker myself so I looked high and low. Read all of the gnostic texts that were elected or neglected to be worthy of adding and etc. I still can find nothing other than faith to suggest his existence. Which I do not have for I am a altruistic/pagan sorta gal...(though pagan itself has become a dirty word) . I worship nothing, but immensely respect nature in all it's glory and think something must have created at least the first something that then multiplied into this vastness we now exist in . I do not and never have agreed with Jesus being worshipped even IF he was real. I think that him being "a son of god" is no different from ME being a daughter of "god" , and if anything the message about Jesus the man was completely misrepresented or at least misunderstood. I think the point of the teachings was to expand our minds and show us all that WE have the abilities same as he does, if only we "know" it instead of wanting a "savior". Perfect example of this would be the fabulous book by Richard Bach titled "Illusions; an adventure of a reluctant messiah". If you have the time this is a really enlightening and eye opening read. Furthermore, I think IF the man did exist he would not want to be known as "the Lord" either....
I will be honest and say that this is a good topic for discussion but I will not be purchasing the book for my own inquiries. However, that being said , if it is proven that he existed then bravo and more backing on my opinion of what the man or mission really was. It really matters not to me though if HE existed or not, it is the message that was somehow lost in translation that I care about.
Peace

 

[CitizenK]

Oh yes, and I forgot to mention that much of the Christian religion (in my searchings) has been found to actually have been stollen from this religion and that one , including the pagans to make it more desirable to the masses of sheeple . (I meant people) Right down to Christmas day and the virgin Mary yadda yadda yadda, so in my opinion he may have never actually existed. Again, that's okay with me, I am over my anger of being betrayed my whole life, it isn't my parents fault that they just had faith and didn't question any of it, afterall that is what we were all taught....But if you do your homework you will find that most if not all of the Christian holidays, symbols, and stories came from some older religion somewhere.

 

[Kim323]

Hey there, Mike and Stonehart. I was, as I said, going to end my part in our discussion. I had tried in vain to make points on the topic itself, but you two persisted in cutting and pasting vast quantities of stuff that befuddled and clouded the issue, your main points, as I tried to keep up, being that Jesus did not exist, the gospels were pure fabrication and resulted from vast conspiratorial efforts (quite confusing, all of it, but nevertheless clearly erroneous), and/or the gospels were mere echoes of previous myths and stories from a myriad of cultures, with you invoking long lists of arcane similarities between these stories and Jesus. Our discussion was going smoothly, I thought, as I tried, off the top of my head, to clear up some stuff, some of the fallacies, but I was overwhelmed by the sheer flood of cut and paste. I invoked things I had personally learned and read, indeed taught to students, over many, many years and tried to stick to the point. No interest seemed to be shown to the books I suggested or the points I raised, as only cutting and pasting seemed the preferred mode of communication. I did get frustrated admittedly. I guess, for me, the proverbial straw was my mention of one Massey, a proponent of the mythos stuff. In response, Mike brought up the inestimable scholar Ms. Murdock, alias, pretentiously, Acharya S, guru extraordinary to many. I had read several of her books and responded with my opinion, but that had clearly reached my zenith of patience. Mike responded with more cut and paste, and admonishment of my style: he had quoted a very provocative email from Ms. Murdock to him decrying criticism of Massey. And there it remained. I had resolved to stay out of more of this ostensible discussion, though I don't think either of us were angry. However, I will respond one last time, and give the directions to two articles dealing in great and long detail about one of Ms. Murdock's books. They are very long, but very readable, and done in a scholarly fashion. Here are the directions to find them on the internet. I do humbly ask that Mike and Stonehart read them in their entirety. I most humbly venture to say, though, that I doubt they will. The articles directly deal with much of the cut and paste stuff they have presented. I did read all they submitted very carefully, and I hope they will read Mike Licona's articles. Go to answeringinfidels.com (the name of the website is a bit tongue in cheek, not meant derisively, from what I read of Mike Licona and his style of writing). On the left, click on Answering Skeptics. Click on Acharya S in the short list. Read Part 1, an article in which Mike Licona rebuts in great detail Ms. Murdock's book The Christ Conspiracy. It is well done, scholarly, footnoted, and polite and professional. Then read Part 2, in which Mike Licona rebuts Ms. Murdock's rebuttal of his rebuttal in Part 1. He is a consummate writer and gentleman. As Gene says, Peace, and I mean that, and it's probably better that the discussion continue without me. I would hope that books I suggested would be read, too. I'd cut and paste them to the forum but they're too long and make too much delightful sense, and are best read in paper. I reiterate that my whole point was that scholars had rationally and empirically applied critical methods to the gospels, and especially so to Jesus's miracles, healings, and exorcisms. I wish I'd received some inquiries for further explanation on this, but I seemed to get stuff like why didn't Jesus appear in the records as "perambulating and exorcising". Actually, there are intriguing conclusions about Jesus's very exorcisms by hardnosed scholars, and yes, Jesus did ambulate when he wasn't on board a ship or riding a donkey. Kim

 

[mike]

To me detailed references dont befuddle and cloud the issues, just the reverse.

To me links to detailed data are better arguments than "thats just absurd and silly" as an argument

If the data presented is as you claim "confusing" how can you possibly then conclude its erroneous ?

Perhaps my advantage is i only have to deal with the data, as is and not clouded by the filter of faith.

For me the data speaks for itself, multiple sources showing the same elements of story/myth.

It is a myth built upon other myths and god men, who in turn were personifications of the ubiquitous sun god mythos.
Its not a challenge to my faith to recognise this as fact, but i accept you cant

With sincere respect and affection lets leave it at that

 

[Kim323]

Mike, I just posted my last post there a scant ten minutes ago, and you already replied. I just had to point this out. You sure read what I suggested awfully quickly (!) and if you didn't read it (of course you didn't), it seems from the finality of your post that you don't intend to. It will take some time and concentration, a good hour to read carefully and digest. I read all your stuff. My point is made. But I agree, let's call it quits. Kim

 

[mike]

Kim i paid for a speed reading course many years ago, i have a library that takes up two walls ,floor to ceiling of the largest room in my house, i can knock over a paperback with full retention in less than a day.
Its presumptous erroneous and argumentative to state as fact i didnt read it
I read both his articles and her rebuttal which i found by far the more honest and compelling

Its funny isnt it that the man who says

As I stated in my paper, making an assertion and quoting those who agree with you is a long way from establishing your point.You must also provide reasons

then goes on to use this

In reading the article to which you refer us, I saw no striking similarities or much in support of the similarities between Buddhism and Christianity that you claim in your book.

as a rebuttal, without a single reference we can cross check to establish his claim

Just i saw no similarities........

Rebuttal to Licona's "Refutation of The Christ Conspiracy"

Keep in mind here liconas premise that

A Jewish man is the God of the cosmos and rose from the dead , is not even supported by judasim itself which views this figure as a false messiah

How do you reconcile that ?
That according the the very source that wrote the OT, the worship of jesus is idolatry and a mortal sin.

Jews and christians dont both eat at the pearly buffet, according to the tenets of each sect, they cant both be right......but they can both be wrong.

Superstitious nonsense covers both bases