Great Pyramid as a "water pump?"

[Kieran]

This article explains the scientific value of measurements when it comes to stone. In short the MOH value is not the defining determination of hardness or susceptibility to cutting or chipping.

The Giza Building Project

Their is also a huge logical fallacy on your part using this argument. If copper chisels could not have cut into limestone then they could not have carved any of the inscriptions in any limestone block. Therefore all inscriptions on all monuments would have existed only during the bronze age or later since bronze is hard enough to carve limestone. Or that there is a mysterious tool made of unknown material that no one has ever found was used to carved the inscriptions. Do you realize how ridiculous this sounds?

This video shows a copper chisel cutting limestone and even flint shaving limestone:

what the ancients knew I Shorts: Stone Cutting Tools : Video : Science Channel

This video shows a copper tube cutting granite:

what the ancients knew I Shorts: Egyptian Drill : Video : Science Channel

It's a similar technique that Chris Dunn demonstrated on Ancient Aliens.




The fact that Romans did successfully transport several hundred ton obelisks across the Mediterranean proves that it can be done. Whether their specific techniques were identical is debatable but being able to demonstrate that massive stones can be moved and erected by water transportation in ancient times is a given. You said it was impossible. It is easy to just say the large barges didn't exist but you can't prove that. You simple ignore the carvings showing barges carrying obelisks as just "a depiction" and the writings from an eyewitness. How convenient.

There is indication from carbon dating that the Egyptians did indeed deplete there forests of old growth wood needed in the construction of the pyramids and the barges. This may explain why future construction projects were never as big. There are historical precedence of people depleting forests for construction or industrialization. It happened at Easter Island and it happened throughout Europe in the modern era.



I find it strange that people expect a lot of documentation of structures that are built several thousand years ago. I can't even find the blueprints of a 10 year old remodel at city hall. After such a long period a host of things could have happened that would have destroyed any such evidence assuming it was even kept. Wars, natural dissasters, fire, jealous Pharoahs, religious upheaval, and so on could have caused important documents to be destroyed. Never mind that after several thousand years any kind of documents written on papyrus would even stay intact. Again there are historical precedence of important documents being destroyed both deliberately and accidentally. Like I said before the ancient Great Library of Alexandria was completed destroyed. It could very well have had written accounts of exactly how things were done. We'll never know. Book burnings in Europe were quite popular in the Medieval era. The Spaniard did an excellent job of nearly wiping out the entire library of books that the Mayans kept.

If we werer to assume that the pyramids were graves with treasures then why would we expect blueprints or any document detailing the construction? This would only help grave robbers and future pharaohs who were more than eager to replenish their treasurys with plundered goods. This could have been the reason why latter kings had their tombs hidden underground.

The one key piece of evidence that alternative theorists like to dismiss is the written inscriptions on the stone blocks above the King's Chamber that identify the pyramid as Kufus. They've been dismissed as hoaxes. However closer examination reveals that these markings by workers run under and in between the massive stones. It is definitive proof that this is Kufus pyramid.

Finally, Graham Hancock a noted author of many books that put forth alternative theories to the pyramid construction retracted his assertions that the markings on the blocks could be fake. He was given a lengthy examination of the chamber and the markings under powerful lights by the Egyptian authorities and has since recanted the hoax claim. He was able to see the marking between gaps in between some of the stones.

Here is his statement from his own webstie:
The Official Graham Hancock Website: Feature Articles

In short: "... in December 1997, Dr Zahi Hawass allowed me to spend an entire day exploring these chambers. There were no restrictions on where I looked and I had ample time to examine the hieroglyphs closely, under powerful lights. Cracks in some of the joints reveal hieroglyphs set far back into the masonry. No 'forger' could possibly have reached in there after the blocks had been set in place - blocks, I should add, that weigh tens of tons each and that are immovably interlinked with one another. The only reasonable conclusion is the one which orthodox Egyptologists have already long held - namely that the hieroglyphs are genuine Old Kingdom graffiti and that they were daubed on the blocks before construction began..."

Like many other authors of alternative theories Hancock had never been inside this chamber before he wrote his books yet made wild assertions of fraud in order to dismiss accepted theories.

Sorry Astro i tend to believe the experts when it comes to defining metal harness then some guy on a website supporting his own ideas about the Pyramid build. The MOH scale is recognised the World over and you can not just come here and dismiss it because does not suit your argument.

Honestly are those videos your provided evidence? 'We have a guy scratching limestone which in fact is not even the right limestone in the first place used at Giza. So the experiment is flawed already before he even gets started.. Remember there is Limestone that can be cut with time and effort, but the limestone used in the construction of the pyramids is much harder to cut then other limestone.

The second video you provided.The Copper tube Experiment lol.
They put a tube inside a hole in the block. Yet we were not shown here how he created does holes in he block. What tool did he use for example to cut it? Then two two Arab man i believe started moving with a saw or something like that. Honestly you believe anything Astro. I want to see a granite block being cut with a Copper saw. The video you provided is not good evidence to go by. Provide a better example i take back what i said and apologise to you.

I could now debunk the rest of your post but what is the point. You have your views and you keep them no offence should be taken here. But i basing my evidence on facts your basing your evidence on assumptions, speculation and theories.

 

[1stEarthBattalion]

I heard the water pump theory too and it was presented very well. I also like the idea that the pyramids were to help spaceships line up and land at a spaceport - read Zecheria Sitchin stuff it is really interesting but you have to plough some of through it as he does not write it as a story like Angela and Demons (pants and poop) as he seems to really believe in the ancient visitation we are toys of gods thing.

In the end we may find that pyramids were just a way for a leader to express his power to all around him and that if you could find additional purposes then great. God knows what people are going to think of the millennium dome in London in 2000 years time (giant upturned WOK). In fact expressing power in this way may have been good business sense as it could cower neighbours so that they did not think about war and also impress foreign dignitaries while negotiating trade deals. If it also helped with irrigation, astrology, religion, then that is a bonus.

As to the smooth stones - should they not have been rough cut using wooden wedges and water, or even a water saw that emulates the erosion the sea can produce and then smoothed after wards. The Egyptians had access to a lot of people power without union help and seem to allow projects to take a bit longer than we accept nowadays. As for moving really heavy blocks - maybe we need to think more laterally - at the moment I have seen people try to move static blocks on land - water travel could be more successful as could encasing the block in a structure that makes it more transportable. How about within a wheel/ barrel configuration - then the block could be rolled around. Or how about a step at a time contraption- the block basically tipped end over end - think about it - get a cube of sugar and slowly look at the movement as you roll it - it takes less energy than scrapping it across a surface, and you could reuse the material ,(wedges ropes, an M shaped structure and cloth) used to move it. Beats giant ancient balloon theories and a million tethered flamingos inspired by the film UP and the story James and the Giant peach.


At the moment I like reading about all the ideas and can't wait for the next set of questions into the mystery to be investigated. I like Zecheria Sitchin theory but rationally believe that it is more likley to be a tomb mainly because there are more pyramid sites than Giza and the other theories do not seem to explain them as well.

 

[SoCalGNX]

Ancient Aliens History.com
Had a segment about this as a power source.

 

[1stEarthBattalion]

Give the secret answer and whoooosh no one picks up on it.

The interesting thing about reality is that it does not exist until you can process it even if it dances before your very eyes.

Whoops heading towards my quantum post, got to make sure I do not go up in a puff of logic.


Got an idea for a survey - If you wanted to show the world that you were the most powerful being in existence how would you express your self today.

Big building - huge landscaping - cult

What do you guys think - worth starting a thread over?

 

[Xylo]

Sorry Astro i tend to believe the experts when it comes to defining metal harness then some guy on a website supporting his own ideas about the Pyramid build. The MOH scale is recognised the World over and you can not just come here and dismiss it because does not suit your argument.

Where does water fit into the Moh hardness scale? Not to be a jackass but water and sand erosion have sculpted many landmarks over time.

 

[Kieran]

Where does water fit into the Moh hardness scale? Not to be a jackass but water and sand erosion have sculpted many landmarks over time.

The whole idea is these blocks were Quarried Xylo on site. Water and sand can not cut solid blocks. Granite can only be cut with a metal that has a harness of 6 and over. Those are the facts. Egyptian Copper saw only had a harness of three on the MOD scale and trying to cut through Granite with these type of saw it wouldn't work. Why do you think there has never been a successful demonstration of this ever?

Like i said to Astro show me a video were a Egyptian copper saw cut right through a Granite block and i will take back what i said and apologise.

 

[Xylo]

The whole idea is these blocks were Quarried Xylo on site. Water and sand can not cut solid blocks. Granite can only be cut with a metal that has a harness of 6 and over. Those are the facts. Egyptian Copper saw only had a harness of three on the MOD scale and trying to cut through Granite with these type of saw it wouldn't work. Why do you think there has never been a successful demonstration of this ever?

Like i said to Astro show me a video were a Egyptian copper saw cut right through a Granite block and i will take back what i said and apologise.

Kieran, I don't necessarily agree with the theories that say "this is the way it was done." But I won't dismiss them entirely either. Think of how creative humans have been over the years; the lines in the middle east that were animal traps, Hannibal freezing and cracking rocks with water and possibly vinegar.

I think that even with only copper tools and human ingenuity, the stone cutting could have been performed. Not that it was done that particular way.

 

[Kieran]

Kieran, I don't necessarily agree with the theories that say "this is the way it was done." But I won't dismiss them entirely either. Think of how creative humans have been over the years; the lines in the middle east that were animal traps, Hannibal freezing and cracking rocks with water and possibly vinegar.

I think that even with only copper tools and human ingenuity, the stone cutting could have been performed. Not that it was done that particular way.

I understand what your saying, man can be creative but no creativity by man would enable them to cut granite with Copper. It has never been successfully done using tools made of copper. I'm not being Dogmatic in what i am saying, all i am asking for is prove. It amazes me people accept this yet people who believe the Egyptians build the Pyramids also disagree that Copper tools cut the granite. They claim Iron was used.

 

[SoCalGNX]

Got an idea for a survey - If you wanted to show the world that you were the most powerful being in existence how would you express your self today.

Big building - huge landscaping - cult

Jim Jones, Charles Manson, Hitler, and a few others have tested this idea.

 

[Kandinsky]

From my point of view there isn't any evidence that the Egyptians didn't build the pyramids. Likewise, the tools we know they had have been reconstructed and used to cut granite and limestone. We also have records of large building projects. One of the stela at Wadi Hammamat ( Hammamat Inscriptions) lists a workforce that Ramesses IV sent to the quarry. Just under 9000 men! Another stela describes a smaller number of workers, but includes 2000 mariners. There are many more records detailing similar expeditions. The Harris Papyrus (all 40 metres of it!) contains a list of boasts from Rammeses III about huge building projects and large imports of copper.

Over in the quarries we can see the traces of the quarry overseers and their work gangs. We can clearly see where the blocks (granite at Aswan) have been taken and the tooling process used. We've also found the remains of copper chisels and cold chisels in the remaining debris ( http://www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk/tools/archive/uc63041.jpg and http://www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk/lahun/ucarchivelahun/uc7536.jpg) . The quarry floors are littered with diabase hammers....round stone hammers. Many quarries have nicknames of the workgangs carved on rocks and several mention the pharaoh or overseer. On top of that there are paintings and tomb reliefs that show masons working with stone hammers. There are images of monuments being cut by saws, carved by rock hammers and being hauled on sleds or on barges.

View attachment 1541



So 'copper is too soft?' It's 'impossible!' This is wrong. A copper saw is a lapping tool. Such tools use abrasives to carve harder material....in this case sand. It's been tested many times over the decades and was described by Petrie in the 19th century. The process is taken for granted due to it being reproducible... How to cut Granite with Sand!

Sure, there are still a lot of things we don't yet know about the Egyptian construction methods. There are people who look at pyramids and cannot get their heads around it. They prefer to refuse to accept established theories no matter the evidence. They exchange a civilisation that demonstrably existed...it's still there and museums are crammed with their remains and objects. They exchange it for a 'lost civilisation' that has no remains, no objects and no graves. They often choose the words of Hancock as having greater veracity than centuries of academic research...to me this is absurd, but we're entitled to our opinions. Likewise Dunn gets a lot of support. Again, for Dunn to be right, we need to pretend there are no paintings, reliefs, quarry marks or copper tools. If we can pretend all those things don't exist, we're really close to pretending the Egyptians had power tools. History would be cooler if Egyptians had electrical generators and levitated rocks by humming the chord sequence to Smoke on the Water

 

[dyingsun]

If there will be a next cataclysmic event (ice age, pole shift (meh), us annihilating ourselves), and there will be one of course in the next 10.000 years I guess, just think of what human 'spawn' (I really think humanity is as resilient as cockroaches, I kniw it is not the exactly the nicest of comparisons) will think of the ruins we leave behind.
I'm getting a serious 'Planet of the apes' flashback right now.

 

[Kieran]

From my point of view there isn't any evidence that the Egyptians didn't build the pyramids. Likewise, the tools we know they had have been reconstructed and used to cut granite and limestone. We also have records of large building projects. One of the stela at Wadi Hammamat ( Hammamat Inscriptions) lists a workforce that Ramesses IV sent to the quarry. Just under 9000 men! Another stela describes a smaller number of workers, but includes 2000 mariners. There are many more records detailing similar expeditions. The Harris Papyrus (all 40 metres of it!) contains a list of boasts from Rammeses III about huge building projects and large imports of copper.

Over in the quarries we can see the traces of the quarry overseers and their work gangs. We can clearly see where the blocks (granite at Aswan) have been taken and the tooling process used. We've also found the remains of copper chisels and cold chisels in the remaining debris ( http://www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk/tools/archive/uc63041.jpg and http://www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk/lahun/ucarchivelahun/uc7536.jpg) . The quarry floors are littered with diabase hammers....round stone hammers. Many quarries have nicknames of the workgangs carved on rocks and several mention the pharaoh or overseer. On top of that there are paintings and tomb reliefs that show masons working with stone hammers. There are images of monuments being cut by saws, carved by rock hammers and being hauled on sleds or on barges.

View attachment 1541



So 'copper is too soft?' It's 'impossible!' This is wrong. A copper saw is a lapping tool. Such tools use abrasives to carve harder material....in this case sand. It's been tested many times over the decades and was described by Petrie in the 19th century. The process is taken for granted due to it being reproducible... How to cut Granite with Sand!

Sure, there are still a lot of things we don't yet know about the Egyptian construction methods. There are people who look at pyramids and cannot get their heads around it. They prefer to refuse to accept established theories no matter the evidence. They exchange a civilisation that demonstrably existed...it's still there and museums are crammed with their remains and objects. They exchange it for a 'lost civilisation' that has no remains, no objects and no graves. They often choose the words of Hancock as having greater veracity than centuries of academic research...to me this is absurd, but we're entitled to our opinions. Likewise Dunn gets a lot of support. Again, for Dunn to be right, we need to pretend there are no paintings, reliefs, quarry marks or copper tools. If we can pretend all those things don't exist, we're really close to pretending the Egyptians had power tools. History would be cooler if Egyptians had electrical generators and levitated rocks by humming the chord sequence to Smoke on the Water

Kandinsky this the problem with people like you and Astro. You can not cut Granite with Copper full stop. It has "Never" been successfully done. The Websites you posted prove absolutely nothing in my mind especially the Website How to cut Granite with sand. That is the same guy on the Videos Astro Posted after all. I challenge you or Astro to prove to me that Copper can cut through Granite? show me a video of were this has be done, a clear demonstration of Copper cutting though Granite. Dude i accept Tools existed in Egypt that were made of Copper, i however disagree with you that the Egyptians cut hardened Granite from the Quarry using Copper Chisels., I don't refuse to accept the Established theories, they don't make any sense, that is my problem. It not about refusal. I do accept Repair work was done by the Egyptians on the Pyramids, but there is zero evidence this culture build the Pyramids, much of the evidence does question that hypothesis. Now we can debate this till forever, but at least prove one of theories you accept. Granite was cut by Copper. I challenged your theory now you prove it and then we move on from there. If you can't then as i expected i was right.

 

[Kandinsky]

I challenge you or Astro to prove to me that Copper can cut through Granite? show me a video of were this has be done, a clear demonstration of Copper cutting though Granite.

Kieran, I've no intention of providing you with an education. Your broad ignorance of history is your choice, your reluctance to venture further than Hancock's website for academic research is up to you too. You're asking for video?! Have you attended a college? We still lecture using books and occasionally the internet...books and papers are acceptable sources of reference. Furthermore, I can't recall reading a single footnote, bibliography or references that used video citations. Perhaps this is why you disagree with established histories? Not enough video...

I posted my points so other members could have a starting point to have a look at history for themselves, it wasn't aimed at you...it was offering an evidence-based alternative. If I hadn't posted, then some readers may well have taken your ideas as seriously as you do. So thanks for the offer, but I'll decline the opportunity to be a search engine for evidence we both know you'll dismiss. If it makes you happy, let's pretend we've had a debate and you won.

For anyone interested in the academic evidence of Egyptian tool use, there's a couple of excellent papers available: Hall of Maat - Rock Properties: Why the ancient Egyptians can carve rock with stone and copper tools and another one here...Hall of Maat - Ancient Egyptian Copper Coring Drills

An important book on the subject is here by Denys Stocks. He repeated the experiments of Petrie and then added more by reconstructing Egyptian tools from the hundreds of paintings and reliefs across Egypt... 401 Unauthorized

Let's summarise.
We've got buried Egyptian workers in cemeteries adjacent to quarries and major monuments.
We've got Egyptian copper and stone tools.
We've got reliefs and paintings of Egyptian workers using the same type of stone and copper tools.
We've got monuments showing evidence of being cut by Egyptian workers with stone and copper tools.
We've got stone and copper tools found in limestone and granite quarries showing tool marks and bedding planes where blocks were removed.
We've got evidence of work gangs tagging monuments, blocks and quarries with the names of the gangs and sometimes the Pharaoh of the period.
We've got texts describing the importation of copper and the quarrying of granite, limestone, sandstone etc.
We've got mundane court accounts of Overseers stealing stone from building sites and various accounts of the nitty gritty of Egyptian society.

 

[Kieran]

Kieran, I've no intention of providing you with an education. Your broad ignorance of history is your choice, your reluctance to venture further than Hancock's website for academic research is up to you too. You're asking for video?! Have you attended a college? We still lecture using books and occasionally the internet...books and papers are acceptable sources of reference. Furthermore, I can't recall reading a single footnote, bibliography or references that used video citations. Perhaps this is why you disagree with established histories? Not enough video...

I posted my points so other members could have a starting point to have a look at history for themselves, it wasn't aimed at you...it was offering an evidence-based alternative. If I hadn't posted, then some readers may well have taken your ideas as seriously as you do. So thanks for the offer, but I'll decline the opportunity to be a search engine for evidence we both know you'll dismiss. If it makes you happy, let's pretend we've had a debate and you won.

For anyone interested in the academic evidence of Egyptian tool use, there's a couple of excellent papers available: Hall of Maat - Rock Properties: Why the ancient Egyptians can carve rock with stone and copper tools and another one here...Hall of Maat - Ancient Egyptian Copper Coring Drills

An important book on the subject is here by Denys Stocks. He repeated the experiments of Petrie and then added more by reconstructing Egyptian tools from the hundreds of paintings and reliefs across Egypt... 401 Unauthorized

Let's summarise.
We've got buried Egyptian workers in cemeteries adjacent to quarries and major monuments.
We've got Egyptian copper and stone tools.
We've got reliefs and paintings of Egyptian workers using the same type of stone and copper tools.
We've got monuments showing evidence of being cut by Egyptian workers with stone and copper tools.
We've got stone and copper tools found in limestone and granite quarries showing tool marks and bedding planes where blocks were removed.
We've got evidence of work gangs tagging monuments, blocks and quarries with the names of the gangs and sometimes the Pharaoh of the period.
We've got texts describing the importation of copper and the quarrying of granite, limestone, sandstone etc.
We've got mundane court accounts of Overseers stealing stone from building sites and various accounts of the nitty gritty of Egyptian society.

"You throw out does allegations at me, But all i asked for, was prove did i not? It was not hard test i gave you. "Hancock i never brought that person up in any part of my discussion with you or referenced any of his material. Both you and Astro brought him up. Nice Work!!! Come on this theory fails miserably that is why you have responded here with zero evidence of your own. Every site you provided a link to is about the Egyptians having build the Pyramids So the accepted theories would be obviously discussed on those websites. So those sites matter little to me. "Granite Can Not be cut with Cooper this a well known "Fact" and I'm not going to have a discussion with you, when you can't even prove the theory you accept, when i asked you to. End of discussion!!!

 

[exo_doc]

There is problems with the overall hypothesis. I think we need to ask were the tools the Egyptians used good enough to cut these large stones. Which they weren't cooper tools can't cut granite or limestone so that hypothesis fails miserably.. (70 ton stones) carried down river on barges, can't happen, too weak to support such weigh. See there is many problems with the hypothesis before you even get talking about the construction of the pyramids. Nobody seems puzzled here!!! Egyptologists..how come they have never once tested their hypothesis (a reconstruction)? How many men carried these stones from the Quarry (simple test) I bet you they would fail that test and they are well aware their theories would not stand up to scrutiny.

Have you guys heard of Dr. Joseph Davidovits? He wrote a book in the early 80"s showing what he states is evidence that the pyramids were built from a kind of concrete. The book had photos of xrays taken of some of the blocks showing air bubbles, grass and plant matter, animal bones and other stuff not found in natural rock. He also had pictures of heiroglyphics(sp?) actually showing workers mixing stuff and pouring it into square shapes. He also claims the red color is from some kind of stain.
Now if he's right, it would only take a few thousand workers a few years to build the Great Pyramid. It wouldn't involve moving 50 ton blocks, just 50 pounds of concrete and water.

It at least sounds plausible and worth looking into. Unfortunantly, Dr. Davidovits has been banned from entering Egypt, I've read, by Zahi Hawass himself, the guy in charge of Egyptology in Egypt.

What do you guys think?

 

[Kandinsky]

Have you guys heard of Dr. Joseph Davidovits? He wrote a book in the early 80"s showing what he states is evidence that the pyramids were built from a kind of concrete. The book had photos of xrays taken of some of the blocks showing air bubbles, grass and plant matter, animal bones and other stuff not found in natural rock.

I think he had a great idea and set out to show how it could be done. Instead of just thinking about it, he really got on and tried to show the world. Where he came unstuck, was refusing to accept he was mistaken. Science in general, and Egyptology in particular were accused of being in cahoots to 'hide the truth.'

Davidovits' ideas have been point for point shown false or inaccurate. Some of the microscopic images he claims show materials (opal) that aren't present in quarried limestone have been found in limestone. Samples of quarried limestone from the pyramids have been microscopically compared to geopolymer limestone and there are clear differences. Fossil distributions are also very different. As technology and research increase, his ideas have been left ever further behind.

In recent years he's associating with a guy called Osmanagic. He's been pushing the claim that Bosnia has pyramids that date back thousands of years. His 'Great Pyramid' is a hill. His evidence of artificial construction is the remains of dry-stone walls from the Roman era. He's another guy making a claim utterly unsupported by evidence and then calling people liars when they just don't see what he sees.

You'll never guess what Davidovits has discovered at the Bosnian pyramid? Yup. Poured concrete! What a surprise...

 

[stonehart]

How could they have cut the stones by hand with Cooper tools? That is my point it's impossible. The're the only tools they had according to academics to carry out such work. So how the bloody hell did they do it? The most telling aspect is the Egyptian culture never once took credit for the construction of the Pyramids. They never detailed the method of how they build the Great pyramid in particular. Like come on we have records of everything they did up till this point. Records of Pharaohs, Wars they found, they even recorded construction of other buildings. But "NOTHING" of why and how they build the Pyramids. Something smells like a rat here, i don't think they were the builders, maybe i am wrong, but the're is too many wrongs then rights here. A accepted hypothesis should fit nicely with the evidence however the evidence here doesn't fit kindly with the accepted Hypothesis put forward by Egyptologists.

As a matter of fact there is a way to cut granite with a copper saw if the archaeology surrounding the great pyramid is to be trusted. All you would need to use is sand as a cutting medium between the granite and the copper saw. This is a very old idea and much the same as the modern use of cutting compounds. I use heavy to fine grade Sandpaper to clean high carbon clay hardened steel (1095 grade) and tungsten steel. Tungsten is what you would use in cutting disks that we use to cut granite today and although it takes time sandpaper can and will polish this steel and remover a lot of it if need be. Do not underestimate the power of fine dust and sand to erode away hard objects for given enough friction and force it can ware away anything. Now I am playing the Devil’s advocate here for there is one problem with this Idea if you have not spotted it. The copper would ware away a lot faster than the granite would... So here is the rub how fast could the Egyptians make and replace a copper saw and how long did each saw last? I do not think they had the ability to mass produce copper saws on the scale needed to produce blocks of stone for the great pyramid in the time frame Egyptology would have us believe. As for who built them I really have no idea for I am not convinced by any one thus far... Nice ideas but nothing I see as conclusive.

 

[Kandinsky]

Now I am playing the Devil’s advocate here for there is one problem with this Idea if you have not spotted it. The copper would ware away a lot faster than the granite would... So here is the rub how fast could the Egyptians make and replace a copper saw and how long did each saw last? I do not think they had the ability to mass produce copper saws on the scale needed to produce blocks of stone for the great pyramid in the time frame Egyptology would have us believe.

You're absolutely right that the copper would wear away....copper filings and quartz (very hard) have been found along the saw and drill marks of limestone and granite blocks & statuary. The saws were up to two inches in width (measuring saw marks) and could be 8 feet in length. That provides a potentially large surface area for abrasion...maybe 192 square inches. The hardness of the copper would be key. If they cold-worked copper and hammered it, the hardness can be double that of just casting and annealing. Double hardness brings it in line with the softer end of carbon steel.

I guess these figures (combined with harness of a given rock) would be enough to estimate the average shelf-life of a copper slabing saw.

In terms of their manufacture being a problem...I'm not so sure. Egypt was a very skilled society with specialisation being a feature of the work-force and population. We know they mined for copper and we know they travelled far and wide to buy as much copper as possible (Ancient Egyptian raw materials: metals - copper, bronze, iron, gold, silver, lead). So it's likely they had the materials to manufacture slabing saws. Did they have the manpower? Hell yes! They had time, energy and patience... (Access forbidden!) That obelisk is over a thousand tons and they carved it out by hitting it with diorite hammers. If you look closely, the pitted surface is quite clear. Any society stubborn enough and ambitious enough to do this will have no problem building the infrastructure and labour behind foundries and blacksmithing.

 

[stonehart]

Thank you for backing me up as it seems a logical conclusion.


I have to admit that I have read about this in regards to Egypt but I know for a fact that the sand as a cutting compound was used to cut blocks of granite in India to build many of the southern temples.

In India they also used another technique to split the raw blocks..


The idea is to cut a number of small holes around two or so inches wide and a number of inches apart in the stone then hammer wood into it. The next step is to poor water onto the wood and let it soak it up.. Repeat a number of times and the pressure of the wood expanding causes the stone to split.

Yes this works on granite as this was the intened stone for this technique

---------- Post added at 09:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:44 PM ----------

Oh and while I remember the cap stone of one of these Temples [sorry the name escapes me right now and I am feeling too lazy to find my notes] had a Granite capstone that weighed over 4 tons per block [it was made up of two 4 ton blocks].. The interesting thing is not so much the blocks in question but the remains of a ramp found a number of miles away. There is not much left of the ramp but it points right at the Temple and if you could draw a line from the start of the ramp to the top of the temple it would be less than a 7 degree incline. This is not the only example of this construction in India and is not the most massive either.

 

[Kieran]

As a matter of fact there is a way to cut granite with a copper saw if the archaeology surrounding the great pyramid is to be trusted. All you would need to use is sand as a cutting medium between the granite and the copper saw. This is a very old idea and much the same as the modern use of cutting compounds. I use heavy to fine grade Sandpaper to clean high carbon clay hardened steel (1095 grade) and tungsten steel. Tungsten is what you would use in cutting disks that we use to cut granite today and although it takes time sandpaper can and will polish this steel and remover a lot of it if need be. Do not underestimate the power of fine dust and sand to erode away hard objects for given enough friction and force it can ware away anything. Now I am playing the Devil’s advocate here for there is one problem with this Idea if you have not spotted it. The copper would ware away a lot faster than the granite would... So here is the rub how fast could the Egyptians make and replace a copper saw and how long did each saw last? I do not think they had the ability to mass produce copper saws on the scale needed to produce blocks of stone for the great pyramid in the time frame Egyptology would have us believe. As for who built them I really have no idea for I am not convinced by any one thus far... Nice ideas but nothing I see as conclusive.

The fact is Copper used with cutting medium like Sand, still would not cut granite. Have you evidence that this is even possible? Steel' Well that is totally different Ball Game!! Your dealing with a metal that is far superior to Copper, and it will cut granite on it's own, without the need for extra help. MY argument is.
Egyptian Copper saws would be no use on Granite even with the added help. A block of limestone had to put down every six minutes to match the time-scale given by Egyptologists, so using a Copper saws at the Quarry sites would have stopped the whole process from the very get go. Now if they had Iron or Steel? Well then they could have quarried these Blocks of Limestone and Granite no problem. That still would solve only one of the mysteries of the construction of the pyramids.

---------- Post added at 12:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:03 PM ----------

Have you guys heard of Dr. Joseph Davidovits? He wrote a book in the early 80"s showing what he states is evidence that the pyramids were built from a kind of concrete. The book had photos of xrays taken of some of the blocks showing air bubbles, grass and plant matter, animal bones and other stuff not found in natural rock. He also had pictures of heiroglyphics(sp?) actually showing workers mixing stuff and pouring it into square shapes. He also claims the red color is from some kind of stain.
Now if he's right, it would only take a few thousand workers a few years to build the Great Pyramid. It wouldn't involve moving 50 ton blocks, just 50 pounds of concrete and water.

It at least sounds plausible and worth looking into. Unfortunantly, Dr. Davidovits has been banned from entering Egypt, I've read, by Zahi Hawass himself, the guy in charge of Egyptology in Egypt.

What do you guys think?

I have never heard of this Person. So i would have to review what he had to say, before commenting any further on this. But all alternative theories are welcome, because the old theories don't work. He was banned from Entering Egypt. Strange!! Zahi Hawass he is a dumb ass...