Great Pyramid as a "water pump?"

[stonehart]

The fact is Copper used with cutting medium like Sand, still would not cut granite. Have you evidence that this is even possible? Steel' Well that is totally different Ball Game!! Your dealing with a metal that is far superior to Copper, and it will cut granite on it's own, without the need for extra help. MY argument is.
Egyptian Copper saws would be no use on Granite even with the added help. A block of limestone had to put down every six minutes to match the time-scale given by Egyptologists, so using a Copper saws at the Quarry sites would have stopped the whole process from the very get go. Now if they had Iron or Steel? Well then they could have quarried these Blocks of Limestone and Granite no problem. That still would solve only one of the mysteries of the construction of the pyramids.

I think you need to study Metallurgy for a bit as cold drawn copper can be very hard and yes there is evidence of large copper saws from the time of pyramid construction.


"As a matter of fact, there is little mystery here despite what you read in the popular magazines. The Egyptian workers simply dribbled quartz sand beneath the copper saws and drills. This abrasive is harder than the mica and feldspar components of granite but not the quartz. Nevertheless, granite will yield slowly to the abrasive, as do the copper tools themselves.
In 1999, D.A. Stocks tested the efficacy of copper saws and drills on the granite in the Aswan quarries 500 miles up the Nile. The copper saw in his test was 1.8 meters long, 15 centimeters in depth, and 6 millimeters thick. Stocks experimented with both wet and dry sand and smooth and notched saws. In one test, workmen cut a slot 3 centimeters deep and 95 centimeters long in14 hours. It was slow work, but the ancient Egyptians had plenty of time and manpower. In the same experiment, the copper saw blade was ground down 7.5 millimeters. Overall, dry sand with a smooth blade worked best. Similar tests with a tubular copper drill were also successful"

Also point of fact is the pyramid in question is NOT built of just granite. the bulk of the constrution is in fact limestone and a copper saw will make extreamly short work of limestone.
Here this is worth reading http://www.gizabuildingproject.com/art_solenhofen6.php

As is this

http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/egypt/dailylife/mining.htm

 

[Kieran]

I think you need to study Metallurgy for a bit as cold drawn copper can be very hard and yes there is evidence of large copper saws from the time of pyramid construction.


"As a matter of fact, there is little mystery here despite what you read in the popular magazines. The Egyptian workers simply dribbled quartz sand beneath the copper saws and drills. This abrasive is harder than the mica and feldspar components of granite but not the quartz. Nevertheless, granite will yield slowly to the abrasive, as do the copper tools themselves.
In 1999, D.A. Stocks tested the efficacy of copper saws and drills on the granite in the Aswan quarries 500 miles up the Nile. The copper saw in his test was 1.8 meters long, 15 centimeters in depth, and 6 millimeters thick. Stocks experimented with both wet and dry sand and smooth and notched saws. In one test, workmen cut a slot 3 centimeters deep and 95 centimeters long in14 hours. It was slow work, but the ancient Egyptians had plenty of time and manpower. In the same experiment, the copper saw blade was ground down 7.5 millimeters. Overall, dry sand with a smooth blade worked best. Similar tests with a tubular copper drill were also successful"

Also point of fact is the pyramid in question is NOT built of just granite. the bulk of the constrution is in fact limestone and a copper saw will make extreamly short work of limestone.
Here this is worth reading http://www.gizabuildingproject.com/art_solenhofen6.php

As is this

http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/egypt/dailylife/mining.htm

Stone i am aware of lot of things and Granite can not be cut with Copper. The MOH scale determines the hardness of metals and there ability to cut stuff. You want me to believe. Ok show me evidence that this was done by people who have no connection to the Pyramids. I believe the experts, this can not be done. Those two web sites hold little value for me. Now if you can prove to me people in construction or elsewhere have cut Granite with copper. I will listen otherwise cough...

 

[Kandinsky]

I have to admit that I have read about this in regards to Egypt but I know for a fact that the sand as a cutting compound was used to cut blocks of granite in India to build many of the southern temples.

In India they also used another technique to split the raw blocks..


The idea is to cut a number of small holes around two or so inches wide and a number of inches apart in the stone then hammer wood into it. The next step is to poor water onto the wood and let it soak it up.. Repeat a number of times and the pressure of the wood expanding causes the stone to split.

This is it really. People keep pointing at the Egyptians and scratching their asses in lazy amazement. Their limited subject knowledge means they simply don't know that the world was more than just Egypt. People were carving limestone at Gobekli Tepi around 8000years before Giza and they didn't even have copper. They used hard stone, bone and horn tools. Over in India, they were also carving granite, limestone and pink sandstone. Sumeria used limestone cut with copper and adobe bricks. Have they ever checked out the megaliths and dolmens that are spread from the banks of the Caucasus, across the Mediterranean and away to the outer islands of Scotland and Ireland? Some of them are granite.

If you check out the link to Aswan's 'Unfinished Obelisk' you can see the process you mention. There's a straight line of deep notches to allow the rock to fracture along it's bedding plane. I read lately that the wood and the water causing expansion is under dispute, but the general process is evident. Also, like you say...they used it in India.

So the facts are that we have images of saws, copper filings in saw marked blocks and Egyptian texts accounting for tons of copper being mined and imported. I've got a couple of interesting links that have been overlooked earlier in the thread. The first one is likely to be the most interesting as it relates to your job...Hall of Maat - Rock Properties: Why the ancient Egyptians can carve rock with stone and copper tools The sources and references can be chased up, but I've got the pdfs of some. Second link is good stuff and shows the same process used across the Eastern world... Hall of Maat - Ancient Egyptian Copper Coring Drills A bamboo drill bit and sand has been used to drill limestone! There's also this site here...only image, but it gives an idea of a small-scale copper slabing saw in action...How to cut Granite with Sand!

It's kinda funny. People are often so determined that our ancestors had some wild technology they lose their balance. There's literally nothing to support the idea apart from their ass-scratching confusion

 

[stonehart]

Stone i am aware of lot of things and Granite can not be cut with Copper. The MOH scale determines the hardness of metals and there ability to cut stuff. You want me to believe. Ok show me evidence that this was done by people who have no connection to the Pyramids. I believe the experts, this can not be done. Those two web sites hold little value for me. Now if you can prove to me people in construction or elsewhere have cut Granite with copper. I will listen otherwise cough...

Sure take an indepth study of the construction of the early temples in India. many of the temples were constructed useing granite cut with copper then latter iron tools.. how do I know this?
I wrote a paper on temples in India... or did you think I was talking through a hole in my arse when I said:

"In India they also used another technique to split the raw blocks..


The idea is to cut a number of small holes around two or so inches wide and a number of inches apart in the stone then hammer wood into it. The next step is to poor water onto the wood and let it soak it up.. Repeat a number of times and the pressure of the wood expanding causes the stone to split.

Yes this works on granite as this was the intened stone for this technique."

I have also spent the past seven years studying metallurgy as I collect swords and I have some nice cold drawn copper ones in my collection which I can tell you are extreamly hard.


hmmm as you say cough.

Here we have the copper cutting experiments in Deneys A Stocks own words:

"The shaping of igneous stones by ancient Egyptian artisans into building blocks, statuary, sarcophagi and obelisks, many of them decorated with deeply cut hieroglyphs and reliefs, has engendered an admiration for such highly skilled work in hard stone. Rose granite (hardness Mohs 7), in use for all of these objects, was obtained from Aswan, Upper Egypt. This coarse-grained stone is composed mainly of quartz, mica and pinkish feldspar, the latter mineral being slightly softer than the quartz and widely distributed within the stone's matrix.
<!-- google_ad_section_end (name=s1) --><!-- // no sitetune --><!-- google_ad_section_start (name=s2 weight=.3) -->Three important techniques for working the granite were sawing, tubular drilling and relief cutting. The copper stone-cutting saw was employed for shaping hard stone blocks and sarcophagi (e.g. the basalt paving blocks at the Great Pyramid, Giza). The copper stone-cutting tubular drill (Stocks 1993: figure 1a) hollowed stone vessels (e.g. a porphyry vessel, Cairo Museum JE1875) and the interiors of stone sarcophagi (e.g. Khufu's granite sarcophagus at Giza). The cutting of stone is exemplified by the hieroglyphs incised into a rose granite column, British Museum EA1123.

In March 1999, an opportunity arose to saw, drill and cut the granite at a quarry located in Aswan. I received the able assistance of several Egyptian quarry workers to operate a reconstructed 1.8-m long copper saw and a reconstructed 8-cm diameter copper drill-tube, which I had taken to Egypt with a large driving bow. These sawing and drilling experiments were undertaken to test two theoretical propositions, first suggested by me (Stocks 1986a: 28, top and bottom illustrations), that two- and three-worker teams were required to drive large ancient saws and tubular drills respectively. I believe that these Aswan tests on the rose granite are the first to be carried out with reconstructed tools driven by teams of Egyptian stoneworkers.

As before, similar parallel striations were visible on the sides and the bottom of the slot, and upon the saw's continuous edge. The angular crystals embedded into the edge and striated the stone under the blade and along the saw-slot's walls, sometimes causing new striations, at other times reinstating old ones, as the blade moved backwards and forwards along the stone.
The rate of cutting was just over 12 cu. cm/hour, slightly better than the wet abrasive result. It was noticeable that the effort to reciprocate the saw using the dry sand was far easier than for the wet sand abrasive. The used dry sand powder, grey in colour, poured over each end of the slot, its copper content intact."

And his final Discussion


"The experimental sawing of the rose granite with the wet and dry sand abrasive indicates that the stone was cut more favourably with the dry sand. There is no requirement for a stonecutting saw to be notched; copper removed to notch the saw is wasted, and reduces the area of the cutting edge. The wooden frame is unnecessary for such a rigid blade, and in a tall block of stone would eventually limit the depth to which a saw can cut. However, stone weights at either end allow a saw to cut through the stone without restriction.
The drawbacks with wet sand are an increase in the effort to move the saw, the provision of the water and the consequential loss of the copper particles from the waste powders. On the other hand, dry sand can be used in locations far from water, an important consideration in Egypt. The grey-coloured copper-contaminated waste powders from the sawing and drilling of granite have been made into experimental blue glazes (Stocks 1989: 21-6; 1997: 179-82), and it is possible that ancient craftworkers regularly used this resource to make some of their faience glazes.
For dry sand, the ratios of the average weights of the copper worn from the Aswan tools to the average weights of the sawn and drilled granite are similar to the ratios obtained from my earlier Manchester sawing and drilling experiments (Stocks 1986a: 24-9; 1988: I, 100-143). I feel that fully experienced ancient teams could have sawn and drilled the granite at approximately twice the rates achieved by the modern teams (Stocks 1999: table 1). The Aswan drill-tube and wooden shaft, bow-shaft and capstone needed no adjustment or repair during the drilling period. Only the bow-rope needed occasional tightening; the rope lasted 18 drilling hours before becoming badly frayed, when it was replaced."


There is your evidence for a start.. so tell me now that you can not cut Granite with copper when Stocks and others like him have.... if not well then as you say cough...

---------- Post added at 12:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:33 AM ----------

This is it really. People keep pointing at the Egyptians and scratching their asses in lazy amazement. Their limited subject knowledge means they simply don't know that the world was more than just Egypt. People were carving limestone at Gobekli Tepi around 8000years before Giza and they didn't even have copper. They used hard stone, bone and horn tools. Over in India, they were also carving granite, limestone and pink sandstone. Sumeria used limestone cut with copper and adobe bricks. Have they ever checked out the megaliths and dolmens that are spread from the banks of the Caucasus, across the Mediterranean and away to the outer islands of Scotland and Ireland? Some of them are granite.

If you check out the link to Aswan's 'Unfinished Obelisk' you can see the process you mention. There's a straight line of deep notches to allow the rock to fracture along it's bedding plane. I read lately that the wood and the water causing expansion is under dispute, but the general process is evident. Also, like you say...they used it in India.

So the facts are that we have images of saws, copper filings in saw marked blocks and Egyptian texts accounting for tons of copper being mined and imported. I've got a couple of interesting links that have been overlooked earlier in the thread. The first one is likely to be the most interesting as it relates to your job...Hall of Maat - Rock Properties: Why the ancient Egyptians can carve rock with stone and copper tools The sources and references can be chased up, but I've got the pdfs of some. Second link is good stuff and shows the same process used across the Eastern world... Hall of Maat - Ancient Egyptian Copper Coring Drills A bamboo drill bit and sand has been used to drill limestone! There's also this site here...only image, but it gives an idea of a small-scale copper slabing saw in action...How to cut Granite with Sand!

It's kinda funny. People are often so determined that our ancestors had some wild technology they lose their balance. There's literally nothing to support the idea apart from their ass-scratching confusion

Thank you I will take a look at the Aswan's 'Unfinished Obelisk' as I did not know it had the same marks on it. It would make sense I guess as it is a simple idea. I have noticed that those who do not like the idea we are putting out there still think it is the copper that is cutting the stone when in fact it is the sand used as the compound that is doing the work in reality.

 

[Kandinsky]

The Denys Stocks book is a cracker. He reproduced Egyptian tools from their depictions in paintings and carvings and applied the same technology they had to fashion them. I remember leafing through the one copy at University...they sell at over $100/£75 so that's as close as I'll get to owning a copy. When he describes the speed of cutting through limestone or granite it's because he's damn well got out there and done it. Even the forging is detailed on their technology. The googlebooks version is excellent apart from missing out some fairly significant pages.

There's a modern blacksmith recreating the Egyptian copper cold chisel...Blacksmithing Ancient Egyptian Copper Chisels - a set on Flickr

Unfortunately, Kieran's been very clear about the evidence he's prepared to accept. Books, papers and archaeological research aren't accepted. Neither is anything to do with Egyptologists. The only source of acceptable evidence is video. No, that's not a spelling error...it says video.

 

[Kieran]

The Denys Stocks book is a cracker. He reproduced Egyptian tools from their depictions in paintings and carvings and applied the same technology they had to fashion them. I remember leafing through the one copy at University...they sell at over $100/£75 so that's as close as I'll get to owning a copy. When he describes the speed of cutting through limestone or granite it's because he's damn well got out there and done it. Even the forging is detailed on their technology. The googlebooks version is excellent apart from missing out some fairly significant pages.

There's a modern blacksmith recreating the Egyptian copper cold chisel...Blacksmithing Ancient Egyptian Copper Chisels - a set on Flickr

Unfortunately, Kieran's been very clear about the evidence he's prepared to accept. Books, papers and archaeological research aren't accepted. Neither is anything to do with Egyptologists. The only source of acceptable evidence is video. No, that's not a spelling error...it says video.

I have lost interest in having a further discussion on this topic . What books and papers and Archaeological evidence are you referring to? Evidence supported by Egyptologists, is that what you mean?
Your Mate, claims he has evidence Copper Tools cut granite that was used in the building of some the oldest Indian temples. Which ones specifically, and what year and time were they build? And dolmens is a completely different structure to the Pyramids. Most were made of 10 or less large slabs of granite.

The model that every "Expert" in the world outside of Egyptologists uses seemly (lol) to determine Metal and stone hardness is the MOH scale. There is five to seven different known types of limestone that can be found around the world.
"Copper can and will cut certain Limestone with effort, but the Limestone used in the construction of the Great Pyramid. Those limestone blocks have a hardness of just above four. This has been proven with testing!!

On the MOH scale "Copper" is 3 on the scale and 3 can't not cut the stone used at Giza, when it has hardness is 4 on the scale. Also both of ye forget. Granite has a hardness of 6 to 8 on the scale. So how can a Cooper saw that has a hardness of 3 on the scale. Cut Granite since twice the force or more would be required to do so!!!/ even if used sand or water as an abrasive Lads? Another fact for both of ye guy's.

Where are all these Copper tools? Archaeological findings at the the Pyramids, found only a handful of these copper chisels, and most of these were made of a soft Copper. Guys if you want to find out the truth. Then avoid websites like both of you posted here.

 

[Kandinsky]

Kieran, you ended the discussion with me a page or so back. You were quite clear..."End of discussion!!!"

I don't think you've read the links, or perhaps you misunderstood them? It doesn't really matter either way does it?

If it works for you, carry on thinking that someone from somewhere used something to carve the granite and limestone blocks, monuments, statues, stela and whatever else. When you figure out how it was all achieved to your satisfaction...post a thread and I'll ask if you mind me taking part?

 

[stonehart]

The Denys Stocks book is a cracker. He reproduced Egyptian tools from their depictions in paintings and carvings and applied the same technology they had to fashion them. I remember leafing through the one copy at University...they sell at over $100/£75 so that's as close as I'll get to owning a copy. When he describes the speed of cutting through limestone or granite it's because he's damn well got out there and done it. Even the forging is detailed on their technology. The googlebooks version is excellent apart from missing out some fairly significant pages.

There's a modern blacksmith recreating the Egyptian copper cold chisel...Blacksmithing Ancient Egyptian Copper Chisels - a set on Flickr

Unfortunately, Kieran's been very clear about the evidence he's prepared to accept. Books, papers and archaeological research aren't accepted. Neither is anything to do with Egyptologists. The only source of acceptable evidence is video. No, that's not a spelling error...it says video.

I have read parts of his book and still have a large amount of notes taken from it out of interest sake.. but ouch that price tag is a little harsh.

Now as for Kieran if he wishes to remain ignorant then that is fine by me but I will choose to not read his posts or any correspondence. What would be the point...? His argument thus far leans in the direction of the “Space Brothers” did it or some such idea and well let’s not go down that path.

 

[Kieran]

Kieran, you ended the discussion with me a page or so back. You were quite clear..."End of discussion!!!"

I don't think you've read the links, or perhaps you misunderstood them? It doesn't really matter either way does it?

If it works for you, carry on thinking that someone from somewhere used something to carve the granite and limestone blocks, monuments, statues, stela and whatever else. When you figure out how it was all achieved to your satisfaction...post a thread and I'll ask if you mind me taking part?

I was responding to a post Stone posted, and it amazes me that people get so confused around here. Did you not in your last post bring me up, and i think i am the only person with the name Kieran posting on the forums. I do not want to get into a childish debate with you and Stone, i rather avoid it.

I asked you before to prove just one of your theories and still nothing!! Both of you posted links to stuff written by people, who believe these Ridiculous theories. It is well-established fact Granite can not be cut with Copper, and whatever, pet theory both of ye want to believe go right ahead.

I know my material can be backed up with factual information. Both of you just post rehashed stuff that has been written by Egypotologist's.

Stone has lost this debate already he said, i am leaning towards the "Space Brothers" explanation here. Not ONE of my posts mentioned such a thing, a cope out from Stone so to avoid answering some of the questions i asked of him!!..

 

[Spike]

haha the BS people will say to explain the unexplainable

 

[lesacrevnar]

Hi Kieran

A math proof the Egyptian didn't build the pyramids
here

That theory has been around for a while. If your going to make the claim the Egyptians build the pyramids at least form solid conclusions based on real evidence. There is no evidence the Egyptians build the pyramids and frankly i can't see how they could have. The hypothesis does not fit the evidence and for me..The Egyptians to have build the Pyramids They would have to been a more Skilled a superior and certainly more advanced culture than we are being led to believe here by the academics.

 

[bitfiend]

I understand what your saying, man can be creative but no creativity by man would enable them to cut granite with Copper. It has never been successfully done using tools made of copper. I'm not being Dogmatic in what i am saying, all i am asking for is prove. It amazes me people accept this yet people who believe the Egyptians build the Pyramids also disagree that Copper tools cut the granite. They claim Iron was used.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Not at all. Granite can easily be cut by a copper tool embedded with abrasives. Copper is actually ideal for the purpose.

Guess how we cut diamonds today? Copper saws.

 

[Wade]

Not so sure Kieran has popped in here for past several years but interesting post. While i have no doubt that copper could be encrusted with diamonds via electroplating and could be used effectively for cutting granite especially run at high speeds, I doubt this technology would have been in used back then. Besides it's the diamonds doing the cutting, not the copper. The copper merely provides the surface to affix the diamonds to. How would one go about fixing the diamonds to the copper cutting edge back in that era?

Also copper saws used for cutting diamonds? Please elaborate.

 

[bitfiend]

Not so sure Kieran has popped in here for past several years but interesting post. While i have no doubt that copper could be encrusted with diamonds via electroplating and could be used effectively for cutting granite especially run at high speeds, I doubt this technology would have been in used back then. Besides it's the diamonds doing the cutting, not the copper. The copper merely provides the surface to affix the diamonds to. How would one go about fixing the diamonds to the copper cutting edge back in that era?

Also copper saws used for cutting diamonds? Please elaborate.

Copper is soft enough that it will easily become embedded with an abrasive, which does all the cutting. This is how the saws worked. It doesn't have to be high speed. Any fool can go to the hardware store and buy a piece of pipe or copper sheet & try it themselves.

We cut diamonds today with copper discs called laps. they work exactly as described above. There is no electroplating involved.

This is not a mystery.