Gun Control? How about gun control for the Pentagon?

[Muadib]

I think that at some level socialism eventually becomes unfair and empties our treasury. If I am a successful businessman I should be entitled to my money and I shouldn't have to pay any more than the same percentages everyone else pays. If it's 15% then 15% of whatever I made. Why should I be penalized for my hard work and success? If I'm a bum who never wanted to work why should I get a free handout from the government? This is how I see heath care reform. I think we needed reform but if reform means that those who work hard pay for the bums how is that a fair shake? As others have said, if we introduce yet another huge bureaucratic monster into our economy two things will happen. The quality of our healthcare will suffer and it will bankrupt the govt. especially if it is based in a liberal socialist agenda. When you get to 65 years old and need that heart surgery, it might either take too long or be a rush job by a bad surgeon. In either case it might make the difference whether you live or not.

Here's the problem with that rationale, it's the exact system we have right now and will have unless we give everyone health insurance or start turning away those without insurance from our hospitals. There is no getting around the fact that the people with more will end up paying for the people with less in our current system, because people with no insurance will continue to get treatment at our hospitals, not pay their bills and as a result costs will rise for those of us who do pay our bills. At least with a universal system, there is a way for hospitals to recoup some of that money, as opposed to now, where there is no way. I hate to bring up the religion thing but it doesn't strike me as a very Christian attitude to say "Let the poor fuckers die so we don't have to pay for them." I don't remember Jesus asking Lazarus for his insurance card before he healed him

I'm a supposedly amoral atheist and even I think that if we can help our fellow man in need, we should, and if some things suffer as a result of that compassion, then so be it, but I've yet to see a single shred of evidence that our health care system will suffer as a result, that nonsense seems to be coming from the same people who were telling me to watch out for the death panels during the election and we all found out what a load of crap that was. I don't want to live in a country where the poor are forced to die in the street because they can't afford health insurance and in this day and age, we shouldn't have to.

 

[pixelsmith]

I think a good share of the democrats and republicans here are actually Libertarians and don't even know it. Acknowledge the 2 party ruse before it is too late.

 

[pixelsmith]

 

[starise]

Pixel lol...there's a lot of truth in that I think.

Muadib , I don't think I ever said we need to turn anyone away, and certainly I don't hold that view. I agree with you in that a lot of the cost of healthcare is passed along now.I don't think the answer is to continue doing it through the govt.

I would rather see the goodwill of man prevail if we set up something like a benevolent fund to help less fortunate people with their medical expenses. Something like the Red Cross only a charity that covers much more.I think one of the single largest problems is the cost of healthcare itself due to over inflation because of greed and mismanagement . I think there should be some cost controls in place based on actual cost and profit, but beyond that I don't think involving Uncle Sam in the whole business is the answer. I think people would willingly contribute to such a thing maybe as a percentage of their medical bill. And people who aren't sick at all would contribute. Government is a great protector but a horrible manager.

 

[Jeff Davis]

The only party that will ever make a difference in the White House, is a hanging party. Anyone that does not understand that much and honestly believes that things will ever "change" somehow, without as much, is dead wrong. Thw two party system in this country is nothing but the manner in which the people's attention is volleyed. Pathetic.

 

[exo_doc]

G-G-GOOD GODS!!!! LOL my a$$ off!!!!!!

Good one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Jeff Davis]

I hope that kind of social violence never visits anyone you know. But when people die by guns, and worse for personal gain, you might consider who all is profiting right now from the same culture of death that invented slavery, genocide and, most recently, "My First Rifle."

What the heck are you stating here? I am truly not certain.

 

[Burnt State]

At least with a universal system, there is a way for hospitals to recoup some of that money, as opposed to now, where there is no way. I hate to bring up the religion thing but it doesn't strike me as a very Christian attitude to say "Let the poor fuckers die so we don't have to pay for them." I don't remember Jesus asking Lazarus for his insurance card before he healed him

I'm a supposedly amoral atheist and even I think that if we can help our fellow man in need, we should, and if some things suffer as a result of that compassion, then so be it, but I've yet to see a single shred of evidence that our health care system will suffer as a result, that nonsense seems to be coming from the same people who were telling me to watch out for the death panels during the election and we all found out what a load of crap that was. I don't want to live in a country where the poor are forced to die in the street because they can't afford health insurance and in this day and age, we shouldn't have to.

I remember reading years ago in an international "Happiness Survey" that identified America as the number one country least likely to redistribute their wealth. Canada was ranked second. No matter what your class, according to this survey, Americans believe firmly than you can always go west, make your $$$ and you should never have to give any of it away to anyone not able to make do for themselves. Those core values will be difficult to shift in a country that believes the slightest whiff of socialism (universal health care), even if it will ultimately benefit the whole of society, smacks too much of communism. But progressiveness, even amongst the conservative republican ranks who feel they don't have enough of a true right candidate to lead them, is starting to move America towards having more of a social safety net. You would think the strong Christian American elements would 'love their fellow man and all that' to help this progressive movement, but maybe these aren't the right Christians? Besides, the Christian right are more interested in controlling women's reproductive systems.

What the heck are you stating here? I am truly not certain.

Killing and criminal profit are intertwined with those who make the weapons and produce more profit - the same way George Bush Sr. worked for the corporate death dealers selling shares in war companies to coincide with a post-911 profiteering venture all across the Middle East. No disrespect towards those who fought and died there, but their volunteered blood is interwoven with the true kings of the west who own the corporate military complex. And who do these movers and shakers descend from? Which Bush profited from Nazi Germany? Which folk owned the slave trade? Who didn't care if their fellow man could not rebound from generations of racialized violence so long as they could be stereotyped and marketed to?

Inside these answers lies the true pain, power and violence of the nation. It is not an easy history of violence to reconcile. I don't think anyone shoud have to live with any kind of violence.

 

[Muadib]

I wish I could believe that more charity would be enough, but I don't see what reason there is to believe that people will step up when they haven't done so to the degree that we need already and there's no denying that our current health care system is unsustainable. The government can be a terrible manager, but there are things that they do right occasionally, I think this can be one of them. In any case, it is certainly better than doing nothing and imo is a good first step towards figuring out a system that will be sustainable and will be able to provide health care to every American.

 

[boomerang]

The left really has no place in this country.

In a sense you are right. There is virtually no left wing faction of any size or scope in America today. What most would currently regard as "leftists" are, in fact yesterday's "moderates". I can only imagine the kind of savaging Franklin Roosevelt would have gotten at the hands of today's corporate media. His notion of collective decency as manifest destiny would have been literally shouted down. Of course, FDR came upon the scene in the aftermath of one of capitalism's biggest meltdowns in human history. So hard working, patriotic Americans were listening to possible strategies to save capitalism while retaining basic faith in the free market system.

And contrary to what El Rushbo may say, unregulated capitalism is not a panacea for the ills of mankind. It guarantees neither prosperity nor personal freedom . (the latter is the domain of our much tattered Constitution and Bill Of Rights) It can and does melt down. It is historically the most successful of economic formats because it works with human nature rather than against it. But without restraint of law, it can also be quite cruel--especially to those on the most exploited end of it. There is no black and white when choosing free markets vs socialism. That is a false argument successfully sold to 21st century Americans. It is much analogous to the two party only system run by the same old insiders who thrive on unregulated banking and a muzzled media .

The regulation of firearms has somehow been woven into this left vs right paradigm. It has little to do with economic or racial issues today. I suspect a poll of America's "left wing" population would show them mostly in favor of a right to keep and bear firearms, albeit with reasonable regulation. And of those who publicly claim guns are evil, I have to wonder how many have one tucked away somewhere in their homes. Just in case, you know?

 

[Jeff Davis]

The real problem with gun control (I do not own a single gun) is that it thoroughly fails to examine human nature apart from guns. Guns become an evil window dressing. "That gun killed my child a mother exclaims. A teacher tragically states the same thing about the innocents within their charge.

Apart from concentrated populations of people that perpetuate their own existence inside ghetto's *THEY MADE, and then the subsequent follow up of the mass media's entertainment business called the news, I would be very interested percentage wise in just how many people were actually brutally killed via human nature long prior to any of this handgun/assault weapon nonsense. People kill, guns do not. I have yet to see a gun serve a prison scentence. If you are worried about gun violence to the effect that you feel eliminated firearms is the best solution, man are you ever in for a surprise. Ever known anyone bludgeoned to death? How about stabbed repeatedly with a sharpened fork or butter knife? Of course there's the ever popular strangulation method....

(*) I am no apologist. Never will be. Any clue just how many of the most rich people on the face of the planet come from extremely impoverished backgrounds? Kind of gives a person an INSANE craving for power and wealth.

 

[starise]

On healthcare- I believe that if a publicity campaign were launched to tout an assisted healthcare system, especially if it were crafted to let the recipient know that it could be them or their family one day, they would be willing to contribute on their yearly tax return to the cause. If the funds fell short we could have benefits like "Health aid" with movie stars and famous musicians. I'll admit it might not ever happen and I am dreaming thinking it might, still I see the possibility that it could work. A website could be launched that would take funds and maybe highlight the worst cases to give donations to at any given time. When funds got low the community could bond closer by raising the funds needed. Pie in the sky? Probably but I can dream.

"Besides, the Christian right are more interested in controlling women's reproductive systems."

On reproductive control- If you believe that a developing human isn't a human then you would naturally not view abortion as a homicide. If you think it is a human life then you would naturally think that killing it is a bad thing and should only happen if there are rare extenuating circumstances that somehow justify such a decision. I think we all have to agree that in most cases it is a life that would have been had it not been terminated. Since 1973 the law has stood and I don't see that changing any time soon, if ever. My approach on this is to simply let the potential candidate know what the decision could entail both now and in the future. They still have the choice but I think the other side should continually be there to inform and clarify. There are still two views and they should both be presented.As long as America is free I hope we will have the people who present the other side of this issue.

On Capitalism/Socialism- Capitalism needs some kind of regulation in my opinion. But I see control and regulation as only there to assist not to eliminate corporate freedom. We need a policeman but we don't need him in our house telling us what to buy. I got really tired of "EL Rushbo" a long time ago If anything he has helped to get dems elected.

On Gun Control- This seems like a never ending debate with both sides saying their opinions and nothing ever changing. Might as well stop it all now, waste of time. Just go vote. This issue like so many others is brought into the public eye because of a series of real tragedies and usually involving a teen into bad elements or a disturbed individual who wants to take people out with him when he goes. Regulation isn't the answer, If dad has a gun junior might still get to it. Elimination isn't the answer, this only makes the gun toting general public irate at loosing a freedom. And you know, we won't ever completely eliminate all the guns and I hope the good guys still have them. Regulation helps, education helps but doesn't eliminate the problem. The problem is a symptom of an underlying societal change for the worse. This goes back to the family. Bad won't ever go away but we as a society are letting it get worse.

If we can't or won't make the changes then be prepared to build more prisons and hire more policemen. Eventually things will reach a critical mass.

 

[Burnt State]

Apart from concentrated populations of people that perpetuate their own existence inside ghetto's *THEY MADE....

(*) I am no apologist. Never will be. Any clue just how many of the most rich people on the face of the planet come from extremely impoverished backgrounds? Kind of gives a person an INSANE craving for power and wealth.

Ghettos are not made by communities of people. These are structures imposed on those who the powers that be saw fit for them to live in poverty. For example, when reservations were constructed for indigenous populations there was zero plan by the powers that be for health, economics or education. So the white man saw fit to first diassassemble a culture and then give the same culture little by way of future prospects to succeed. This has created cycles of impoverishment for a community already dealing with the intergenerational trauma of genocide. You can see the facts of this situation the world over as indigenous communities were pushed aside and/or killed for their land by the colonisers of the day. You can see it happening right now in South America. Is it their fault?

Yes there is a lot of violence in impoverished communities and the reasons for this is highly complex and has more to do with the economics and social depression of that environment. You can argue moral integrity but that's not easy to come by when starvation and lack is what you are surrounded by. I despise violence and crime but understand that this is rarely anyone's first choice at how to deal with any situation. There are reasons for these cycles. What's a better option - to allow poverty and gun violence to thrive or for the powers that be to make better plans for a healthier, safer future?

We know that mixed income communities are the safest, most productive and healthiest. Once you start segregating populations according to class you damn those communities to unhealthy cycles of impoverishment and violence. The mythos that "anyone can rise above poverty" is just a myth. Select individuals, by way of rare individual spirit, and more often through strong family support, is the way that few can stomp out of poverty. I've taught thousands of youth, spent a lot of time studying the phenomenon of class construction, and know that class is the biggest oppression in society and the most difficult to overcome.

 

[Jeff Davis]

Ghettos are not made by communities of people. These are structures imposed on those who the powers that be saw fit for them to live in poverty. For example, when reservations were constructed for indigenous populations there was zero plan by the powers that be for health, economics or education. So the white man saw fit to first diassassemble a culture and then give the same culture little by way of future prospects to succeed. This has created cycles of impoverishment for a community already dealing with the intergenerational trauma of genocide. You can see the facts of this situation the world over as indigenous communities were pushed aside and/or killed for their land by the colonisers of the day. You can see it happening right now in South America. Is it their fault?

Yes there is a lot of violence in impoverished communities and the reasons for this is highly complex and has more to do with the economics and social depression of that environment. You can argue moral integrity but that's not easy to come by when starvation and lack is what you are surrounded by. I despise violence and crime but understand that this is rarely anyone's first choice at how to deal with any situation. There are reasons for these cycles. What's a better option - to allow poverty and gun violence to thrive or for the powers that be to make better plans for a healthier, safer future?

We know that mixed income communities are the safest, most productive and healthiest. Once you start segregating populations according to class you damn those communities to unhealthy cycles of impoverishment and violence. The mythos that "anyone can rise above poverty" is just a myth. Select individuals, by way of rare individual spirit, and more often through strong family support, is the way that few can stomp out of poverty. I've taught thousands of youth, spent a lot of time studying the phenomenon of class construction, and know that class is the biggest oppression in society and the most difficult to overcome.

Total disagreement here.

Ghettos are not made by communities of people. These are structures imposed on those who the powers that be saw fit for them to live in poverty.

This is just plain WRONG. I live about 20 minutes outside one of the biggest urban blights (Ghetto my man, nothing more than urban blite, plain and simple) in the USA. What you stated above is like east from west with respect to the TRUTH that made this situation precisely what it is today. We are not talking the Polish Ghetto here during WW2 Burnt State. That's what you are referring to. At least that is the ONLY case that I am familiar with personally where Ghetto's were created by someone other than those who live there. Don't give me that feel sorry for them horse poop, cause that's all it is brother. Nothing more.

Welfare is WRONG if you are neither physically or mentally disabled. Welfare Moms should ALL be placed in work camps to offset the problems that THEY have created. That is the single number one worst problem in the USA today, responsibility has been taken off the menu.

 

[starise]

Poverty is certainly an issue in outcome and behavior Burnt I don't disagree there. I think though that a solid family can be poor and still raise good kids. It is a lot more difficult to do but not impossible.
How do you explain that many of the worst incidents of mass murder using guns was perpetrated by young middle to upper middle class white boys?

 

[Jeff Davis]

On Capitalism/Socialism- Capitalism needs some kind of regulation in my opinion. But I see control and regulation as only there to assist not to eliminate corporate freedom. We need a policeman but we don't need him in our house telling us what to buy. I got really tired of "EL Rushbo" a long time ago If anything he has helped to get dems elected.

Honestly,
Apart from sheer revolution, which unless a military based coo were to encourage such an event, wouldn't stand a snow ball's chance in hell of working, capitalism has been being replaced by socialism for 30 years in this country. People seem to be too stupid to determine that the corporate faction based parties have both been used to volley the matter to an almost complete transition at this point, right under everyone's noses.

 

[Jeff Davis]

How do you explain that many of the worst incidents of mass murder using guns was perpetrated by young middle to upper middle class white boys?

More like, why doesn't the media report on everyone else? Black youth commit mass murder in the ghetto driving down the street firing blindly into old houses. Happens EVERDAY, ALL DAY.

White youth goes into a movie theater or mall with some assault gear, opens fire, and we don't stop hearing about it for a month!

I'm thinking the public is about sick of this slanted BS. The reverse racism in the USA is out of control.

 

[Muadib]

Total disagreement here.



This is just plain WRONG. I live about 20 minutes outside one of the biggest urban blights (Ghetto my man, nothing more than urban blite, plain and simple) in the USA. What you stated above is like east from west with respect to the TRUTH that made this situation precisely what it is today. We are not talking the Polish Ghetto here during WW2 Burnt State. That's what you are referring to. At least that is the ONLY case that I am familiar with personally where Ghetto's were created by someone other than those who live there. Don't give me that feel sorry for them horse poop, cause that's all it is brother. Nothing more.

Welfare is WRONG if you are neither physically or mentally disabled. Welfare Moms should ALL be placed in work camps to offset the problems that THEY have created. That is the single number one worst problem in the USA today, responsibility has been taken off the menu.

What nonsense, typically ghettoes are low income, government built and subsidized housing. They are almost always created by someone other than the people that live there. The lack of empathy for our fellow humans in many of the posters in this thread is astounding and very disturbing. I'll tell you this much, if you've never been poor than you need to shut your fucking mouth about poor people, because you have no clue whatsoever what that is like. If you've never had to choose between feeding yourself and your children and having enough money to make it to work the next day, then you don't know shit from shinola when it comes to poverty.

The illusion of somebody making a choice to be poor or to live in a shitty area is just that, an illusion. Poor people live where they can, not where they want to. Work camps? Are you serious? What is this Victorian England? Why don't you read some history and find out how the very situation you're suggesting played out 200 years ago.

 

[Jeff Davis]

What nonsense, typically ghettoes are low income, government built and subsidized housing. They are almost always created by someone other than the people that live there. The lack of empathy for our fellow humans in many of the posters in this thread is astounding and very disturbing. I'll tell you this much, if you've never been poor than you need to shut your fucking mouth about poor people, because you have no clue whatsoever what that is like. If you've never had to choose between feeding yourself and your children and having enough money to make it to work the next day, then you don't know shit from shinola when it comes to poverty.

The illusion of somebody making a choice to be poor or to live in a shitty area is just that, an illusion. Poor people live where they can, not where they want to. Work camps? Are you serious? What is this Victorian England? Why don't you read some history and find out how the very situation you're suggesting played out 200 years ago.

Please name me one US ghetto that was built for the poor. BTW, what you are referring to, government assisted housing, exists in EVERY major city in the USA. It's you that does not know WTF you are going on about. Get a clue. Ghettos are NOT housing projects Sir. They are cities that are in economic and moral blight. What a load of crap.

 

[starise]

More like, why doesn't the media report on everyone else? Black youth commit mass murder in the ghetto driving down the street firing blindly into old houses. Happens EVERDAY, ALL DAY.

White youth goes into a movie theater or mall with some assault gear, opens fire, and we don't stop hearing about it for a month!

I'm thinking the public is about sick of this slanted BS. The reverse racism in the USA is out of control.

Although I see the point you're making here I think it is exaggerated.The black man of yesterday is the white man today. How about the white and hispanic gangs? I don't see this as racial primarily, and most importantly we don't see 50 people killed in a planned way in the ghetto every day. The nature of what the place is has led to those occasional drive by shootings unfortunately.

Look at any crime out out there from guns to drugs to human trafficking and you will see that it is going on in white middle and upper middle class America too.The only difference is those places aren't as heavily patrolled. There are dudes in 4000 square foot homes cooking meth and growing pot in their basements. Forced prostitution rings in quaint middle America. I don't buy into the idea that if we make everyone well off we eliminate crime.

White middle America is in trouble too.