Gun Control? How about gun control for the Pentagon?

[Jeff Davis]

If helping others less fortunate isn't what you meant by a "welfare program" but you actually meant an actual "welfare program" in nature you're just being obtuse. We're the only animals in nature that have that capacity, so of course your not going to find it in nature, and it has nothing to do with your rant about it "stupid or unproductive".

What is that? Just pure nonsense for the sake of flaming the thread perhaps?

Why are you suddenly acting out?

So is it that you don't think that the woman who has seven illegitimate kids and gets a 3000.oo a month welfare check isn't socially irresponsible? Or perhaps you think the kids should be allowed to suffer? I'm not really clear on which one you don't agree with. The "word salad" comment is just a cop out that tells me you've offhandedly dismissed the comment rather than put any thought into it.

What I actually think Ufology is that you have ZERO point. This is NOT an ethics debate concerned with being evil or not. I'm not evil, are you? This is a country that is DROWNING in the stupidity of it's greed produced generosity. Welfare has done more to perpetuate the ghetto here, than it EVER has done to help anyone leave it, apart from CHILDREN who have ZERO responsibility within the Welfare process's election, or implementation. WTF is it with the bleeding hearts? Every time that ANY discussion that centers around social decay comes up, they fall on the children. Must make 'em proud to be so damned weak and without the obvious understanding of how THEIR programs ENABLE the hell that the children live through to begin with. I can tell you been there and done that.

 

[Randall]

What I actually think Ufology is that you have ZERO point ...

OK Jeff. Have your rant. Maybe when you calm down we can have an actual discussion.

 

[Jeff Davis]

OK Jeff. Have your rant. Maybe when you calm down we can have an actual discussion.

...yeah, what's a rant, without the folks that encourage them anyway? Get some sleep! We both need it, for you to get some that is.

 

[Burnt State]

I suppose the real polarity in North America, as suggested earlier in this thread, is that you can choose to support a position where what you make is what you keep and that the havenots take too many handouts OR you can choose compassion and a set of social values that redistributes the profits of the few for the good of the whole. These are two different ways of building a society, one that chooses to divide and segregate, and another who sides with collectivism and unity in diversity. I'm not interested in yelling about it as I'm good with believing different and speaking out on ideologies that aim to marginalise disadvantaged people into corners.

What I said about not judging poor people was basically that judgment in general of others stands opposite of serving people. However, I will still criticize viewpoints that work against service and rail on about how the poor are to blame for the problems in the social fabric. There's nothing left for me on this thread.

Peace out.

 

[Jeff Davis]

I suppose the real polarity in North America, as suggested earlier in this thread, is that you can choose to support a position where what you make is what you keep and that the havenots take too many handouts OR you can choose compassion and a set of social values that redistributes the profits of the few for the good of the whole. These are two different ways of building a society, one that chooses to divide and segregate, and another who sides with collectivism and unity in diversity. I'm not interested in yelling about it as I'm good with believing different and speaking out on ideologies that aim to marginalise disadvantaged people into corners.

What I said about not judging poor people was basically that judgment in general of others stands opposite of serving people. However, I will still criticize viewpoints that work against service and rail on about how the poor are to blame for the problems in the social fabric. There's nothing left for me on this thread.

Peace out.

There is nothing "left"? I have heard nothing but the LEFT from a true majority here, in this crying towel fest of a thread. The same LEFT that has bankrupt our country beyond any and all redemption. You better get busy, and get out there and save the world, Mother Theresa. I know better than to think you can repair human nature, or to put it terms that even the lefties can figure out, "you can't fix stupid". Me, I'm just into taking responsibility for the decisions that I personally make. It's too bad that the lefties NEED the working class's money in order to do their forward in reverse agenda's "profiteering as usual" bs.

Tell me something Burnt, if you're still gracing me with your presence that is, what exactly in nature is wrong with the weak falling by the wayside? If we compassionately go out of our way to keep them all standing in nature, we doom a significant percentage of them to a slow, agonizing death, that is directly attributable to starvation due to our demonstrated STUPIDITY. Instead of allowing the only REAL majesty there is, *nature, to simply take it's course. If we do that in society, we call that the ongoing, never ending, ghetto. WTFU!!! (that's WAKE bro, instead of something rude like SHUT)

The apologists have poisoned the well. How could you know this, unless you drank there? I have frequented that watering hole my entire life, have you?

*(we are so much greater than nature though, aren't we my friend?) I think NOT.

 

[Randall]

There is nothing "left"? I have heard nothing but the LEFT from a true majority here, in this crying towel fest of a thread ...

Just keep up the rant until you finally get it out of your system.
Here's a target to practice your yelling on ...​

Five Myths About Poverty in America | Parenting Pink - Part 1​

 

[pickles]

There is nothing "left"? I have heard nothing but the LEFT from a true majority here, in this crying towel fest of a thread. The same LEFT that has bankrupt our country beyond any and all redemption. You better get busy, and get out there and save the world, Mother Theresa. I know better than to think you can repair human nature, or to put it terms that even the lefties can figure out, "you can't fix stupid". Me, I'm just into taking responsibility for the decisions that I personally make. It's too bad that the lefties NEED the working class's money in order to do their forward in reverse agenda's "profiteering as usual" bs.

Tell me something Burnt, if you're still gracing me with your presence that is, what exactly in nature is wrong with the weak falling by the wayside? If we compassionately go out of our way to keep them all standing in nature, we doom a significant percentage of them to a slow, agonizing death, that is directly attributable to starvation due to our demonstrated STUPIDITY. Instead of allowing the only REAL majesty there is, *nature, to simply take it's course. If we do that in society, we call that the ongoing, never ending, ghetto. WTFU!!! (that's WAKE bro, instead of something rude like SHUT)

The apologists have poisoned the well. How could you know this, unless you drank there? I have frequented that watering hole my entire life, have you?

*(we are so much greater than nature though, aren't we my friend?) I think NOT.

I believe in liberty and Constitutionalism with a healthy dose of tithing and charity. I don't think we need the government to decide how our hard-earned is passed along to career, generational takers to pay for more votes. Read the founders; they had the same opinion.

 

[Randall]

I believe in liberty and Constitutionalism with a healthy dose of tithing and charity.

Define "healthy dose".

I don't think we need the government to decide how our hard-earned is passed along to career, generational takers to pay for more votes. Read the founders; they had the same opinion.

So when the people decide that their "healthy dose" is zero and you believe otherwise, shouldn't the government you elected have the power to fairly balance the scales?

 

[Burnt State]

There is nothing "left"? I have heard nothing but the LEFT from a true majority here, in this crying towel fest of a thread. The same LEFT that has bankrupt our country beyond any and all redemption. You better get busy, and get out there and save the world, Mother Theresa. I know better than to think you can repair human nature, or to put it terms that even the lefties can figure out, "you can't fix stupid". Me, I'm just into taking responsibility for the decisions that I personally make. It's too bad that the lefties NEED the working class's money in order to do their forward in reverse agenda's "profiteering as usual" bs.

Tell me something Burnt, if you're still gracing me with your presence that is, what exactly in nature is wrong with the weak falling by the wayside? If we compassionately go out of our way to keep them all standing in nature, we doom a significant percentage of them to a slow, agonizing death, that is directly attributable to starvation due to our demonstrated STUPIDITY. Instead of allowing the only REAL majesty there is, *nature, to simply take it's course. If we do that in society, we call that the ongoing, never ending, ghetto. WTFU!!! (that's WAKE bro, instead of something rude like SHUT)

The apologists have poisoned the well. How could you know this, unless you drank there? I have frequented that watering hole my entire life, have you?

*(we are so much greater than nature though, aren't we my friend?) I think NOT.

If you believe in the Ayn Rand approach, survival of the fittest etc. then we have nothing to talk about regarding issues of class and community, as previously expressed. I believe that a full and total community, as an expression of our humanity, cares for the disadvantaged, and yes, Mother Teresa is an excellent example of what humanity should aspire towards - selfless service towards others. I wish i had the guts and the commitment to be like her. If more people were like this it would be a nicer, more civilized place to be.

But in a parting thought i'll say this - please total up the full and total cost of white collar crime, the kazillions of dollars that corporate racketeering adds up to vs. welfare fraud or the laboured costs of sustaining the poor. We so easily point to the nearest scapegoat below us and somehow absolve the true criminals of our society who profit directly from death, poverty, and the class structure. Last time i checked the gaps between the 1% and the rest of the masses continues to increase. I'd rather be critical of the king. It's as simple as that, because the kings brutalize the land, and the serfs just scrape by. Count me a serf, or smurf, i don't really care. I understand your position and disagree entirely. Agree to disagree and move on. There is nothing left to say in these situations, as when you start yelling at people, my rule is that's a sign to walk away, dignity in hand.

 

[boomerang]

Let's see......If I am cruising behind someone on an isolated highway and I see them simply leave the road, resulting in a life threatening catastrophe, should I simply motor on my merry way? After all, I didn't cause the accident. The driver obviously did something weak or stupid to have caused his/her own injury. Perhaps they deserve to be removed from the gene pool. They may be DUI. Such a person could easily have caused a multiple car pile-up. Can't I just keep going? Time is money, after all.

This is our argument in its most elementary terms. I am not only legally, but morally required to stop and render aid. Even if to stop costs me financially. Even if the driver turns out to be an alcoholic idiot with no license.

One may charge reductio ad absurdum. But the analogy is absolutely valid. Compassion is a vital element of the healthy human psyche. To pretend otherwise is absurd. Problems arise when we define and enact it under circumstances that are complex, costly and less than clear. Have stupid things been done with taxpayer money under the guise of helping [fill in the blank]. Yes. But to ignore compassion by hiding behind a mechanistic "survival of the fittest" philosophy is as great a denial of reality as any vision of a perfected utopia.

 

[Jeff Davis]

This is our argument in its most elementary terms.

No it is not. Not in the least. The person ahead of you has not been repeatedly abusing the system to get aid from you, have they? The system (your aid/help in the driver scenario) implemented is not one involving you just walking up, handing that person a check, and then walking away and hoping everything turns out alright, is it? No Sir, your example is not even close to the Welfare system. Yes, I think Ayn Rand as a philosopher and thinker was 100% correct with respect to survival of the fittest within society. Denying as much is merely denying that which is natural. Like usual, this is how mankind screws things up by pretending to be better than nature. Are you super natural? I'm not.

 

[Jeff Davis]

If you believe in the Ayn Rand approach, survival of the fittest etc. then we have nothing to talk about regarding issues of class and community, as previously expressed.

We have apparently nothing to talk about, which is truly sad considering how deep and provocative a thinker that Rand was. That is unless you can provide a natural alternative to the system that has, so far, best guaranteed all those living on the planet the greatest opportunity for their survival.

 

[starise]

You're too nice to call names. Though if you really want I can indulge you

Muadib, funny man. I really expected to come back here with the name cupcakes or bupkuss or something worse. I'm sure you could indulge me very very well lol.

"Seems like the present system's done a pretty good job of that already ( More here )."

That's quite a site Ufology. I guess where I would part ways is in how to accomplish the task. I say why bend over for more of the same. The break down for each dollar would likely be something like 80% overhead and "operational" expenses and maybe if we're lucky 20% of the monies actually benefits the person. And once the plan is operational there will be new figures. If the cost was supposed to be 700 billion it will be higher after they crunch some more numbers.

The accountant will walk in, you know...the guy everyone agrees can be thrown under the bus. He will come before the sub committee of the subcommittee and look some pompous politician with a mean foreboding look in the face and maybe his lower lip will quiver just a little bit and he will clear his squeaky little throat and say ...eh..well....it was supposed to cost 700 billion dollars, but there's been a few little * developments* since then....actually looks like....heh heh...900 billion and rising. My! My! says the politician, would someone please wipe the dribble away from his mouth....


I don't see any point in any kind of camps. I don't see how one would even conceive of such an idea in a free country. The poor are poor for a number of reasons. Some folks are poor because they simply lost their jobs or had a health problem or some other setback of some kind that totally devastated them financially. Then there are the bums and we can't deny that. There are always people who take advantage of a system if given half the chance. The danger lies in taking the liberty to judge an individual based on where they live or what they look like from the outside when the reality might be totally different.


I don't know what a good answer would be to eliminate the free loaders of society. If they are capable of towing their own line then they should be made to tow it. But the answer is much deeper than the surface problem. People who are lazy aren't happy people because they are not at their full potential, if anything, they become more discontented with life and themselves.


Productive people are more content and fulfilled. The next time you go to the zoo look at that bear who has been penned up for a long time and doesn't need to hunt for food. These are some really bored animals.Men are no different. OTOH sometimes people don't know how to be productive or don't have the resources to move ahead and need some intervention to help them get back in the game. People who succumb to a lifestyle of drawing a paycheck and watching TV are doing themselves a greater disservice. Everyone can do something. I don't think that most people want to be in a position to take a handout, I really don't.

FDR did a good thing to keep people busy during the great depression as long as it profited the country in some way like building and maintaining the infrastructure. These weren't work camps but govt. employment. These people weren't forced to work, in fact they probably fought over the jobs. Lots of people want to honestly work but can't. This solution can only be temporary. The country can't maintain a workforce that sucks away at the treasury to the extent that it takes in less than it spends. Obama ok'd funds in a similar way and I have seen some of the results in our local sidewalks and road repairs, but this is only a band aid. We need a more stable economy. The problem is that Americans have been making better wages than a lot of the rest of the world and with the economy being more and more globalized the products from other countries are more readily and less expensively imported than made here. So America becomes lopsided with managers and overhead people selling the products made elsewhere. The people here who are capable of making the products are loosing their jobs and this in turn affects everyone. Hershey is making chocolate in Mexico. The Mexicans are coming here( and I don't blame them for trying to make a better life) but they can work for beans because they sleep 10 to a room and live on rice and beans. Employers take full advantage of the situation and try to get the best help for the lowest wage....like I said we are nearing a critical mass both financially and socially.

 

[Jeff Davis]

I don't see any point in any kind of camps. I don't see how one would even conceive of such an idea in a free country. The poor are poor for a number of reasons. Some folks are poor because they simply lost their jobs or had a health problem or some other setback of some kind that totally devastated them financially. Then there are the bums and we can't deny that. There are always people who take advantage of a system if given half the chance. The danger lies in taking the liberty to judge an individual based on where they live or what they look like from the outside when the reality might be totally different.

Why in the name of intelligence is everyone equating work camp with prison camp or concentration camps, or whatever? WTF? "Work Camp" simply refers to a COMMUNITY EMPLOYMENT program where you can drop your kid/s off in daycare, get your work assignment for the day, and get out and do something USEFUL. Is that such a bad thing? Why the heck shouldn't single mothers have to work for a living? So they can sit around, smoke dope, (why the hell don't they test people on Welfare for illicit drug use?) drink red bull, and play video games on the tax payers dime??? I personally know MANY single moms that do work FULL TIME. This has been a truly eye opening experience for me. Most people do not have a clue what they are going on about. Notta/Nothing.

 

[starise]

Jeff I hear you man....do me a favor. Get away from the computer for awhile. Go somewhere calm and take a nice long deep breath, go do something fun. I'm not poking at you.

I know of a few places where they offer assisted daycare for single mothers and a lot of them take advantage of that. Who is the best person to raise a child though? Remember the family unit is very important.

 

[Jeff Davis]

Jeff I hear you man....do me a favor. Get away from the computer for awhile. Go somewhere calm and take a nice long deep breath, go do something fun. I'm not poking at you.

I know of a few places where they offer assisted daycare for single mothers and a lot of them take advantage of that. Who is the best person to raise a child though? Remember the family unit is very important.

And we just know that it's those family values that matter most to all those single moms with four and five rug rats that all come from different fathers. Go Welfare!

The bottom line is that Welfare serves to perpetuate and maintain the conditions that all the armchair do gooders are crying about.

 

[Randall]

The bottom line is that Welfare serves to perpetuate and maintain the conditions that all the armchair do gooders are crying about.

Perhaps you never read the myths about poverty link, one of which is that those in poverty choose to be there. Apparently they don't, and the vast majority would be more than happy to work if they had jobs to go to. For all intent and purposes they're disenfranchised. So after you cut them off and they have no food or shelter and they turn to crime, and end up in jail instead, the taxpayers will end up forking over around $47,000 a year to keep them locked up ( some savings ). Or maybe you'd prefer forced labor camps? Commercial jails? Public stoning?

A better idea

​

 

[Jeff Davis]

Ufology,
I am done with thread. I know that I am correct because I've lived within it and seen it my entire life. It's pathetic and just keeps getting bigger, and bigger, and bigger. I'm done. Think what you want and as far as your STUPID sarcasm is concerned, go fuck yourself. Bye.

 

[Randall]

Ufology, I am done with thread. I know that I am correct because I've lived within it and seen it my entire life. It's pathetic and just keeps getting bigger, and bigger, and bigger. I'm done. Think what you want and as far as your STUPID sarcasm is concerned, go fuck yourself. Bye.

Sad Jeff, just sad. But since you're gone, I'll just talk in your absence: I have serious doubts about Jeff's sincerity regarding this issue. If he'd actually lived within it and seen it his entire life then I seriously doubt he'd be making the kind of statements usually attributed to the misinformed selfish well-heeled laissez-faire capitalist republicans who resent having to pay a few more tax dollars to help the less fortunate. But let's suppose he is telling the truth and has "lived within it and seen it his entire life", what's he really saying about himself? It's not too flattering. If this is really how he feels about himself and his poverty stricken community he must be one Hell of a neighbor. And if he's worked his way out of it, he's certainly not one of those honorable people we sometimes hear about who feels they want to reach back in to help their old community. It's just more evidence of why more education and compassion are needed to prevent the kind of damage that has made this person so cold and bitter.

Oh and here's some more "stupid sarcasm" ...​

 

[boomerang]

I've been reluctant to toss more chum into these troubled waters. But what the heck.

My wife taught "disadvantaged" middle school populations for over twenty years. Her experience offered me a peek into a kind of parallel socio-economic universe very different from the working class world in which I grew up. Some of my preconceptions remain unaltered. But many were changed. A few takeaways:

-The "welfare mom" living a life of idle luxury at taxpayer's expense is largely a myth. Most are singe moms working two or three jobs to feed their children. Many are constantly on the move as they stay one step ahead of bill collectors and in search of a place to live.
They frequently make choices we would regard as foolish in their day to day existence.


-The populations of which we speak here are cultures of immediate survival and its individuals think and act accordingly. Most have known nothing else. When I was in school, we looked forward to returning to a nurturing home at the end of our day. Many disadvantaged kids prolong their day at school because it is the only safe and stable place in their lives.

-Despite their tough, culture-of-survival demeanor, most of these kids (like all kids) are
basically good hearted. They genuinely want to succeed. And many do.

-The vast majority of their parents genuinely want a better life for their children.

-The ethnic gang situation is a blight upon the American landscape. Liken it to throwing gasoline on an already dangerous fire.


Government programs are not a magic fix. But neither are they the underlying cause.

A perusal of our growing debt problem may show a much deeper rooted problem. Some of it is graft and waste (often implemented as foreign policy). But we are facing a kind of self-induced medical crisis of the masses. We have all but eliminated smoking, only to see a rising pandemic of diabetes, heart disease and other obesity related diseases. ( a prime example of failed social engineering?) Plus, modern medicine has become so costly due to technological sophistication and profiteering (read Big Pharma) that we are approaching a kind of bifurcation point which may either bankrupt economies, or deny all but the wealthy cutting edge treatment. I find this much more worrisome than welfare moms and school lunch programs.

Apologies for the long rant. Not it's back to decaf