Gun Control? How about gun control for the Pentagon?

[Randall]

I've been reluctant to toss more chum into these troubled waters. But what the heck ...

Thanks for chiming in. I know that it's easy to say that throwing money at the problem isn't going to fix poverty. But in reality it all depends on how much is thrown at it. I've heard more than once that if all the money spent on the so-called War On Terror and War on Drugs would have been spent on the poor, every single homeless adult and child in America could have been provided with a home, medical care, and education, and there would still have been money leftover to strengthen domestic security without the expense and loss of life that has gone into foreign operations. Plus by legalizing and regulating relatively harmless drugs like cannabis and it's derivatives, huge amounts of wealth and jobs could be created that could be taxed and used to fix even more problems. Plus there would also be a corresponding lightening of the taxpayer's burden to fund the legal system. But it's so much easier for some people to just blame the poor isn't it?

 

[Burnt State]

boomerang, i'm a 20 year teacher of high school students and I agree with all your points as those have also been my experiences. The parts I identify with most is the great difficulty the poor have in parenting. The lack of positive parenting models in their own lives, multiple jobs and shift work often places them outside of the lives of their children . Issues of abuse, neglect, violence and addictions often cause kids to be rather ineffective in school, and as you stated, for better or worse, these kids hang out at school, after school together and raise each other, as they have no where safe to go. They are often harassed by unsympathetic administrators and don't have a lot of positive mentors.. They don't always make the best choices. Their health, literacy, numeracy and social skills are weak. It's a sad cycle that doesn't seem to be ending soon.

I have never lived in poverty but descend from parents whose post WWII childhoods were pretty bleak. They managed to get out of that cycle because they both had working, caring parents. It is rare that I can say that about the poor kids I teach as their family spaces are mostly just heartbreaking. Teaching this specific cohort has taught me about compassion and the class structure in ways that university never did.

 

[pickles]

Define "healthy dose".

I personally gave five times more in charity last year alone than Joe Biden has in his entire life. Fact.

At least 10 percent of personal income to start -- but DIRECTLY to the needy -- not through the government. I don't need their proven inability to handle money.

So when the people decide that their "healthy dose" is zero and you believe otherwise, shouldn't the government you elected have the power to fairly balance the scales?

This happens predominantly in blue states, so they can have whatever state government they want. But regardless of their choice, it is ultimately theirs to make -- just as the poor choose to wait for government handouts that never do anything but keep them reliant on said cheese.

And BTW -- When the masses in overpopulated areas ultimately make electoral decisions at the expense of everyone else, it's hard to say anything was fairly executed.

 

[pickles]

Thanks for chiming in. I know that it's easy to say that throwing money at the problem isn't going to fix poverty. But in reality it all depends on how much is thrown at it.

Trillions on welfare isn't enough?

Keeping people comfy in their poverty is no incentive to move away from it. This is the mantra of the left -- just toss more dough at an issue and it will go away. Hasn't really been true since WWII.

I've heard more than once that if all the money spent on the so-called War On Terror and War on Drugs would have been spent on the poor, every single homeless adult and child in America could have been provided with a home, medical care, and education, and there would still have been money leftover to strengthen domestic security without the expense and loss of life that has gone into foreign operations.

You're assuming that same money would be handled correctly, and that the actual goal of these programs is anything more than purchasing votes for the next election cycle. Trust me, plenty of money has been spent on this issue and it won't go away unless individuals help themselves.

Plus by legalizing and regulating relatively harmless drugs like cannabis and it's derivatives, huge amounts of wealth and jobs could be created that could be taxed and used to fix even more problems.

Money doesn't fix problems, people do.

Plus there would also be a corresponding lightening of the taxpayer's burden to fund the legal system. But it's so much easier for some people to just blame the poor isn't it?

Actually I blame politicians that keep the poor poor to keep them dependent. That's the real key IMO to not only poverty, but race relations as well.

 

[Randall]

... This happens predominantly in blue states, so they can have whatever state government they want. But regardless of their choice, it is ultimately theirs to make -- just as the poor choose to wait for government handouts that never do anything but keep them reliant on said cheese.

Myths About The Poor
Like that they "choose to wait for handouts" as if they had another choice.

 

[pickles]

Myths About The Poor
Like that they "choose to wait for handouts" as if they had another choice.

LOL typical.

Yes, other than the crippled and immobile all have a choice. This fact is why generation upon generation of people in the inner city and poor Southern areas continue to populate them, all the while blaming someone else for their problems. Meanwhile, you have Indians, Pakistanis and Chinese among a host of others coming into this country with nothing more than the shirt on their backs and becoming quite successful. One generation.

But like I said, I don't totally blame these people. After all, what would you think when you have Democrat politician one after another promising this and that, dangling the permanent carrot that these folks can just never seem to reach.

 

[Randall]

But like I said, I don't totally blame these people. After all, what would you think when you have Democrat politician one after another promising this and that, dangling the permanent carrot that these folks can just never seem to reach.

Don't "totally blame the poor"
Let's Blame the Poor and the Democrats ! ​

​

 

[Randall]

 

[Stagger Lee]

LOL typical.

Yes, other than the crippled and immobile all have a choice. This fact is why generation upon generation of people in the inner city and poor Southern areas continue to populate them, all the while blaming someone else for their problems. Meanwhile, you have Indians, Pakistanis and Chinese among a host of others coming into this country with nothing more than the shirt on their backs and becoming quite successful. One generation.

But like I said, I don't totally blame these people. After all, what would you think when you have Democrat politician one after another promising this and that, dangling the permanent carrot that these folks can just never seem to reach.

"Taking sides" You've fallen for one of the great distractions of all time. Repub vs democ. Meanwhile, politician hero's are laughing all the way to the bank.

 

[Burnt State]

LOL typical.

Yes, other than the crippled and immobile all have a choice. This fact is why generation upon generation of people in the inner city and poor Southern areas continue to populate them, all the while blaming someone else for their problems. Meanwhile, you have Indians, Pakistanis and Chinese among a host of others coming into this country with nothing more than the shirt on their backs and becoming quite successful. One generation.

Although still dismayed over the last poverty debate, and while you may not understand that the cycles of poverty you are describing are closely tied to a number of other cyclical factors (poor health, lack of edcucation, addiction issues, few employment opportunities, violence and abuse, etc.) the fact is that immigrants come here with two pieces that help to propel them: $$$ and the total desire and determination to succeed no matter the obstacle. Those factors do not exist in the generationally poor. And this may also seem inexplicable to you but most of the time poverty is not a choice but an inherited condition. Immigrant youth influenced strongly by their parents are able to climb the social ladder with ease because they inherit drive and determination. I'm not talking about sympathy for the poor just a basic understanding of the ditch some are born into.

 

[Randall]

Although still dismayed over the last poverty debate, and while you may not understand that the cycles of poverty you are describing are closely tied to a number of other cyclical factors (poor health, lack of edcucation, addiction issues, few employment opportunities, violence and abuse, etc.) the fact is that immigrants come here with two pieces that help to propel them: $$$ and the total desire and determination to succeed no matter the obstacle. Those factors do not exist in the generationally poor. And this may also seem inexplicable to you but most of the time poverty is not a choice but an inherited condition. Immigrant youth influenced strongly by their parents are able to climb the social ladder with ease because they inherit drive and determination. I'm not talking about sympathy for the poor just a basic understanding of the ditch some are born into.

Let's not get too idyllic about the quest of the immigrant for the American dream. I'm totally confident in suggesting that the great success stories we hear are the exception rather than the rule, and that there are plenty of immigrants who are struggling or have simply failed and gone back to their native countries. I can't tell you the number of times I've talked to reasonably well educated immigrants who are struggling below the poverty line as part of the wave of working poor.

 

[pickles]

Although still dismayed over the last poverty debate, and while you may not understand that the cycles of poverty you are describing are closely tied to a number of other cyclical factors (poor health, lack of edcucation, addiction issues, few employment opportunities, violence and abuse, etc.) the fact is that immigrants come here with two pieces that help to propel them: $$$ and the total desire and determination to succeed no matter the obstacle. Those factors do not exist in the generationally poor. And this may also seem inexplicable to you but most of the time poverty is not a choice but an inherited condition. Immigrant youth influenced strongly by their parents are able to climb the social ladder with ease because they inherit drive and determination. I'm not talking about sympathy for the poor just a basic understanding of the ditch some are born into.

You make my point for me. Some choose to succeed and educate their children to do likewise; others do not. Excuses for sloth are just that.

 

[pickles]

"Taking sides" You've fallen for one of the great distractions of all time. Repub vs democ. Meanwhile, politician hero's are laughing all the way to the bank.

Let's examine that. Most Dems these days tend to side with collectivism and Marxism. Most Republicans are centrists these days (sadly), while some still stand for what this country was founded on. I agree that the jersey on a politician's back doesn't tell the whole story, but you need to realize that in each party, no one rises to prominence unless they fall in line with the core belief system. Each president or Senator needs the support of the rank and file -- and the decision makers in terms of who nominates whom -- or they're stuck in obscurity.

So while we can say party matters not individually, it does matter if that politician ever hopes to exert real influence. It's not just that one guy -- it's who surrounds him that's often the real problem.

 

[Jeff Davis]

You make my point for me. Some choose to succeed and educate their children to do likewise; others do not. Excuses for sloth are just that.

Pickles,
Discussing this topic here resulted in the worst forum episode I have ever encountered in my life. I was sincerely hurt, and SHOCKED at the emotionally driven stupidity that I witnessed. People that I honestly thought were new friends equated me with a Nazi or a Prison Warden. You are all welcome to your opinions, however I will never discuss it again here apart with agreeing with you pickles, completely.

I will however offer these links demonstrating precisely what it is I agreed with you about.

From Poverty To Power: Celebrities Who Started With Nothing

http://www.investinganswers.com/personal-finance/rich-famous/5-super-rich-americans-who-started-out-super-poor-3761

I was born and raised in Pontiac, (the city that the car was named after,the name of a local Native Indian Chief, hence the Pontiac logo) Michigan. That's approximately 15 miles north of Detroit, and approximately 15 miles south of Flint, Michigan. 50 years or real world experience has formulated my more than well informed opinion on the matter.

Take a little time and research these areas. Then explain to me the success of of the United States Welfare system. It has exsasserbated the problem to the point of irreconccilable decadence. Only a complete non real world FOOL would bolster such official idiocy.

With respect to Dem. vs. Rep., don't waste your time. These philosophically diametric parties are as fake as a 3 dollar bill. They merely represent the philosophical underlying of human nature and therefore attract audiences based on idealisms alone. All we have ever seen in the United States is the vollying of public opinion based issues via the dichotomy of pseudo philosophic positions the parties wear like halloween costumes. The central, or core agenda, of the United States has NEVER once diviated from it's planned course no matter which party is in office. It's just one big dog and pony show, and frankly, I truly feel sorry for anyone that does not understand as much. Gullible, subdivided sheep, is what they need in order to never have to contend with an actual majority opposing them.

DO NOT anticipate anymore responses from me in this thread. I have made myself more than clear. I love this forum, and I'll be damned if I'll let emotionally driven ignorance chase me away.

PS. I am sorry for the way I responded to you Ufology, but frankly, you deserved it completely.

 

[pixelsmith]

Pickles,
Discussing this topic here resulted in the worst forum episode I have ever encountered in my life. I was sincerely hurt, and SHOCKED at the emotionally driven stupidity that I witnessed. People that I honestly thought were new friends equated me with a Nazi or a Prison Warden. You are all welcome to your opinions, however I will never discuss it again here apart with agreeing with you pickles, completely.

I will however offer these links demonstrating precisely what it is I agreed with you about.

From Poverty To Power: Celebrities Who Started With Nothing

5 Super-Rich Americans Who Started Out Super-Poor | InvestingAnswers

I was born and raised in Pontiac, (the city that the car was named after,the name of a local Native Indian Chief, hence the Pontiac logo) Michigan. That's approximately 15 miles north of Detroit, and approximately 15 miles south of Flint, Michigan. 50 years or real world experience has formulated my more than well informed opinion on the matter.

Take a little time and research these areas. Then explain to me the success of of the United States Welfare system. It has exsasserbated the problem to the point of irreconccilable decadence. Only a complete non real world FOOL would bolster such official idiocy.

With respect to Dem. vs. Rep., don't waste your time. These philosophically diametric parties are as fake as a 3 dollar bill. They merely represent the philosophical underlying of human nature and therefore attract audiences based on idealisms alone. All we have ever seen in the United States is the vollying of public opinion based issues via the dichotomy of pseudo philosophic positions the parties wear like halloween costumes. The central, or core agenda, of the United States has NEVER once diviated from it's planned course no matter which party is in office. It's just one big dog and pony show, and frankly, I truly feel sorry for anyone that does not understand as much. Gullible, subdivided sheep, is what they need in order to never have to contend with an actual majority opposing them.

DO NOT anticipate anymore responses from me in this thread. I have made myself more than clear. I love this forum, and I'll be damned if I'll let emotionally driven ignorance chase me away.

PS. I am sorry for the way I responded to you Ufology, but frankly, you deserved it completely.

Well stated reference to the bogus 2 party system. Thanks!

 

[Stagger Lee]

I'm amazed that more people don't see through the "2 party fog" and show their frustration through their voting. The only way to dismantle the 2 party system is to not vote for either one, and I don't see that occuring anytime soon.

 

[Randall]

PS. I am sorry for the way I responded to you Ufology, but frankly, you deserved it completely.

I must have missed it. Really, I have no idea what you're apologizing for. In this thread I advocate assisting those in poverty rather than blaming the poor, spending trillions on weaponry, giving the ultra rich tax breaks, and letting those on Wall Street who scammed the country out of billions of dollars get away with it. If you were ranting at me about that then all I can do is shake my head and ... post another video .

 

[Burnt State]

You make my point for me. Some choose to succeed and educate their children to do likewise; others do not. Excuses for sloth are just that.

No, you're not getting what I'm saying at all. Some people are raised into a work ethic, and those people we call immigrants, come to new lands loaded with desire. And @ufology if they are welcomed and allowed opportunities (I know that discrimination and racism does stop many) then they are far more likely to experience success than those born into oppression, illness, addiction and violence. If you grow up with alcoholic parents, for example, who beat you, don't feed you or love you then your chances at doing well are dramatically reduced. Choice has nothing to do with this.

@Jeff Davis this discussion is an emotionally charged one, no doubt. For myself, I try not to direct hate towards any individual or group, especially not those who are disadvantaged by society's steamroller. I find it very difficult and disconcerting when we stereotype and judge any group of people. And while I think it's important to celebrate success of the rare phoenix that can rise up from the ashes but it's not logical or even practical to think that because Oprah can do it anyone can. Those unique folk have something different cooking in their soul and their circumstance is just one more obstacle.

 

[flipper]

The Saint Bartholomew Day Massacre:

During the summer of 1572, tens of thousands of Huguenots were lured unarmed to the city of Paris to witness the wedding on August 18th, of Henry of Navarre, leader of the Huguenots to Margaret, the sister of the French King. This royal marriage alliance was supposed to end the wars of religion that had plagued France. The massacre began on 23 August 1572 (the eve of the feast of Bartholomew the Apostle), two days after the attempted assassination of Admiral Gaspard de Coligny, the military and political leader of the Huguenots. The king ordered the killing of a group of Huguenot leaders, including Coligny, and the slaughter spread throughout Paris. Lasting several weeks, the massacre expanded outward to other urban centres and the countryside. Modern estimates for the number of dead vary widely, from 5,000 to 30,000.Lasting several weeks, the massacre expanded outward to other urban centres and the countryside.

THE BILL OF RIGHTS

1st Amendment Freedom of Speech, Religion & Press

2nd Amendment Right to bear arms

3rd Amendment Prohibits the forced quartering of soldiers out of war time

4th Amendment Prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures and sets out requirements for search warrants based

5th Amendment Sets out rules for indictment by grand jury and eminent domain, protects the right to due process

6th Amendment Protects the right to a fair and speedy public trial by jury, including the rights to be notified ...

7th Amendment Provides for the right to trial by jury in certain civil cases, according to common law

8th Amendment Prohibits excessive fines and excessive bail, as well as cruel and unusual punishment

9th Amendment Protects rights not enumerated in the constitution. 2 2

10th Amendment Limits the powers of the federal government to those delegated to it by the Constitution

The Huguenots insisted that the right to bear arms be put in the constitution. Who would take away the rights provided in the constitution? They felt their government in France had slaughter them. The right to bear arms is not there so citizens of the United States can shoot each other but to protect them from the government. You cannot have a police state with an armed populations.

 

[Burnt State]

The Saint Bartholomew Day Massacre:
...
The Huguenots insisted that the right to bear arms be put in the constitution. Who would take away the rights provided in the constitution? They felt their government in France had slaughter them. The right to bear arms is not there so citizens of the United States can shoot each other but to protect them from the government. You cannot have a police state with an armed populations.

And therein lies the psychology of America's deepest fear, more acutely felt than any massacre perpetrated upon citizens. So deep is this fear that there is not even any zeal to attempt to minimize citizen upon citizen slaughter through any regulations, restrictions or registries. No, America still holds deep in its heart the same distrust of its own leadership that spawned the nation, that one day papa gov't will come calling and take all the guns, emasculate the populous and leave men unable to protect their liberties.

I suggest that this thinking has resulted in not only a stagnant body politic, at the cost of citizen upon citizen mass murder, but has tunneled America into its own wall of division and the ultimate end of empire. Because fear and propaganda has perpetuated this distrust, there can be no agreement to move the country forward. Instead it will just keep shooting itself in the foot politically and socially while it stands by on the sidelines as individuals with easy access to weaponry shoot up communities, schools, navy yards etc. - this statistic is not going away. When will their be a collective desire that moves beyond the same motivations that define the local militia out in the woods preparing for the war against gov't? Are these fears justfied in any way or do people really believe in anachronistic NRA warnings and fear mongering?