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Hopkins Ex-wife Dumps

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Im sorry, and i dont mean it as an insult, but none of that makes any sense to me, while i see it makes sense to you, its pure gobbledegook to me.

Once was a time when the birth process was considered "magic", specifically womens magic, ignorant of biological science those ancient peoples didnt even think men played a part in the "magic"
Now we know better. biological science has revealed the truth.
So to with creation myths, ppl seem to hate admiting "they dont know", so when a son asks his father where did the world come from, rather than say "i dont know" he says "god/s" made it.
I feel the same way about the trickster myths.
Its a means of ascribing a cause to an effect which confounds us

Personally id rather admit i dont know, and keep digging for the answer than to apply a panacea gap filler label like god did it or the trickster did it .
Each to his own Chris, if your comfortable with the trickster as an explaination , good for you.
For me its just not specific enough of an answer to be intellectually satifying

Dude, the birth process IS magical. I understand the temperature of intellectual types is cold and dry, but YEESH. : )

And ancient peoples weren't ignorant. They understood better than you that man is the will, the potentiality. Woman is spirit, the manifestation. You "think" that it's just a gross biological event. Who's the ignorant one? From what I've learned, A little humility goes a long, long way.

The "paranormal" is not rigid. by it's very nature, It's fluid. And when you go past the phenomenal world into the noumenal, even moreso.

If you're looking for a linear, mechanistic, cartesian, modus operandi for all of this, good luck tilting those windmills.
 
Dude, the birth process IS magical. I understand the temperature of intellectual types is cold and dry, but YEESH. : )

And ancient peoples weren't ignorant. They understood better than you that man is the will, the potentiality. Woman is spirit, the manifestation. You "think" that it's just a gross biological event. Who's the ignorant one? From what I've learned, A little humility goes a long, long way.

The "paranormal" is not rigid. by it's very nature, It's fluid. And when you go past the phenomenal world into the noumenal, even moreso.

If you're looking for a linear, mechanistic, cartesian, modus operandi for all of this, good luck tilting those windmills.

Birth is a biological process, that you think "magic" is involved is telling, science explains where babies come from and it doesnt need magic in the equation.

That will and spirit hogwash, does it apply to animals too ?, do animals use "magic" to make baby animals ?
That you would even try and suggest basic biology uses "magic" in its process tells me all i need to know about you and your opinions.

I can take sperm and eggs from just about any species and create a foetus in the lab, The japanese are even working on artificial wombs
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/genbio/biolink/student/olc2/g-bioe-17.htm

No magic, just a well understood biological mechanism

And are these guys gods ? did they use magic ?, no of course not

Using four bottles of chemicals and a computer, scientists at laboratories in Maryland and California, led by genome pioneer Craig Venter, succeeded in creating life -- a bacterial organism. Venter and his teams of
lg.php

scientists created what they call "synthetic cells" and named the bacterium Mycoplasma mycoides
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/5409946/scientists_create_artificial_life_a.html

You want to describe reality with words like gods and archangels and magic, be my guest. but dont expect me to take you seriously
 
OK, I don't want to infer too much from all of that but I can't help but assume you're referring to certain things. If I'm off-course just let me know. Are you claiming to have had experiences of some sort yourself? I haven't read all of your replies in this thread but that first sentence I put in bold seems to imply that. Always hate trying to get into an internet debate with an "experiencer" because from where I'm sitting how do I know it's true? It's no mystery that there are Romanek and Adamski sort of characters out there. Claiming to be an experiencer, if in fact you are claiming that, automatically puts me at a disadvantage and I can't help but wonder sometimes if people do it just because of that reason. From where I'm sitting you could be legitimate, or you could just as well be a bullshitter. How can I know?

But it's the second of your sentences I put in bold that interests me more. That seems to imply that you do not see this in a nuts and bolts way. So I'm left to speculate that perhaps you see more eye to eye with Vallee or O'Brien or perhaps you might even have a religious or new age point of view. What I find interesting about that is that it seems to me that the people who have been getting the most excited by all this Hopkins and Jacobs business, the ones that seem to really be foaming at the mouth with excitement that bad things are currently being said about them, are people with that point of view. Maybe I'm misreading things but I can't escape the impression that the bulk of the most venomous outrage is coming from those that never liked the Hopkins/Jacobs slant on things in the first place. If there's any truth to that I believe it says something fairly interesting in and of itself.

No, I'm not a "New Ager". Most people involved in the New Age don't understand that the origins of a lot of that stuff is some of the most fascist, racist, pseudospiritual garbage ever seen on the planet. The Nazis were New Age. They were into Naturopathy, magic, & crystals. Didn't stop them from murdering over 6 million people.

What passes for religion these days are actually belief systems. And as we should all know, you can get people to believe anything.

What I do would be called Theurgy. I practice and teach Qigong and meditation, train in Tai Chi & other internal arts, & am a longstanding member in a traditional Pan-African spiritual organization. We teach a knowledge based, not belief based system. I'm not speaking in a official capacity, so I'm not saying at present what organization. I apologize for being cryptic.

And you're absolutely right. If you haven't experienced it yourself, it's all heresay. i don't want you to believe what I'm saying. Look into it. Discriminate. Reason. Most importantly, Do. Then come to a conclusion. Computer chair quarterbacking not allowed :)

I'm not a UFO "experiencer" in waking reality (although I've had interesting things happen in the Alpha / Theta sleep state, so from that perspective I have a few things in common with abductees). I've had various experiences from the meditation, ritual, & qigong work I do ("both "soft" and "hard"). I've had entity encounters, & other things from this. But it's basically the equivalent of telling ghost stories around the campfire, so I don't get into it. Again, just heresay. I'd say get a good meditation teacher (good luck), and learn a complete Qigong system (I study the Wutan system of Grandmaster Liu Yun Ciao) and find out for yourself. Information is good, but knowledge is better.



A lot of what's speculated about in the paranormal field has already been mapped out by various ancient cultures (Native Americans, Ancient China, Indus Kush, Ancient Egypt, etc.). The terminology and mindset can't be grasped by most Westerners at present. I would advise checking out the various authors I mentioned in previous posts to get the beginnings of a map that goes with a modern mindset.

I've got no "beef" as the young folks say, with either Jacobs or Hopkins with regards to them attempting to do science. I'm a science nut, always have been. It's just that they did such a sloppy job, they've ruined the abduction area of research for years. I'd also read that they threw away or ignored data that didn't match their belief system. Like I said sloppy.

As Patanjali said, using words for which there is no objective reality is the greatest source of illusion and delusion. "Genectic Alien Aybrid". How do you know that's what it is? Coyote says" Hey man, i'll be what you want me to be. You want an alien, poof, I'm an alien. You want the blessed virgin,poof, I'm the blessed virgin. Your wish is my command. But you only get three, so make 'em good. I'm here for you (as it laughs at your ignorance)."

I first heard about all of this on Paratopia with the Emma Woods episodes. I don't agree with everything those guys do, but they are to be commended for bringing this out. Jacobs basically hung himself. And to a lesser extent, so did Hopkins. It's a shame his ex has to kick him while he's literally down though. Let the man get healthy so he can defend himself.

And lastly these manifestations are both physical and not. (try fitting that into your reality box).
 
No, I'm not a "New Ager". Most people involved in the New Age don't understand that the origins of a lot of that stuff is some of the most fascist, racist, pseudospiritual garbage ever seen on the planet. The Nazis were New Age. They were into Naturopathy, magic, & crystals. Didn't stop them from murdering over 6 million people.

What passes for religion these days are actually belief systems. And as we should all know, you can get people to believe anything.

What I do would be called Theurgy. I practice and teach Qigong and meditation, train in Tai Chi & other internal arts, & am a longstanding member in a traditional Pan-African spiritual organization. We teach a knowledge based, not belief based system. I'm not speaking in a official capacity, so I'm not saying at present what organization. I apologize for being cryptic.

And you're absolutely right. If you haven't experienced it yourself, it's all heresay. i don't want you to believe what I'm saying. Look into it. Discriminate. Reason. Most importantly, Do. Then come to a conclusion. Computer chair quarterbacking not allowed :)

I'm not a UFO "experiencer" in waking reality (although I've had interesting things happen in the Alpha / Theta sleep state, so from that perspective I have a few things in common with abductees). I've had various experiences from the meditation, ritual, & qigong work I do ("both "soft" and "hard"). I've had entity encounters, & other things from this. But it's basically the equivalent of telling ghost stories around the campfire, so I don't get into it. Again, just heresay. I'd say get a good meditation teacher (good luck), and learn a complete Qigong system (I study the Wutan system of Grandmaster Liu Yun Ciao) and find out for yourself. Information is good, but knowledge is better.



A lot of what's speculated about in the paranormal field has already been mapped out by various ancient cultures (Native Americans, Ancient China, Indus Kush, Ancient Egypt, etc.). The terminology and mindset can't be grasped by most Westerners at present. I would advise checking out the various authors I mentioned in previous posts to get the beginnings of a map that goes with a modern mindset.

I've got no "beef" as the young folks say, with either Jacobs or Hopkins with regards to them attempting to do science. I'm a science nut, always have been. It's just that they did such a sloppy job, they've ruined the abduction area of research for years. I'd also read that they threw away or ignored data that didn't match their belief system. Like I said sloppy.

As Patanjali said, using words for which there is no objective reality is the greatest source of illusion and delusion. "Genectic Alien Aybrid". How do you know that's what it is? Coyote says" Hey man, i'll be what you want me to be. You want an alien, poof, I'm an alien. You want the blessed virgin,poof, I'm the blessed virgin. Your wish is my command. But you only get three, so make 'em good. I'm here for you (as it laughs at your ignorance)."

I first heard about all of this on Paratopia with the Emma Woods episodes. I don't agree with everything those guys do, but they are to be commended for bringing this out. Jacobs basically hung himself. And to a lesser extent, so did Hopkins. It's a shame his ex has to kick him while he's literally down though. Let the man get healthy so he can defend himself.

And lastly these manifestations are both physical and not. (try fitting that into your reality box).

OK, that pretty much tells me all I need to know. :)
 
Birth is a biological process, that you think "magic" is involved is telling, science explains where babies come from and it doesnt need magic in the equation.

That will and spirit hogwash, does it apply to animals too ?, do animals use "magic" to make baby animals ?
That you would even try and suggest basic biology uses "magic" in its process tells me all i need to know about you and your opinions.

I can take sperm and eggs from just about any species and create a foetus in the lab, The japanese are even working on artificial wombs
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/genbio/biolink/student/olc2/g-bioe-17.htm

No magic, just a well understood biological mechanism

And are these guys gods ? did they use magic ?, no of course not


http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/5409946/scientists_create_artificial_life_a.html

You want to describe reality with words like gods and archangels and magic, be my guest. but dont expect me to take you seriously

And you haven't understood or read a word I said. When I say magic, I'm not talking "Harry Potter". My fault for thinking you understood the terminology.

You're using words that you think you know (magic, spirit, etc.), when actually you're utilizing associative thought processing that doesn't always match up with actual reality. Have you even done extensive research on anything you're speaking upon with such authority? I can say I have.

Magic is the use of intent combined with force to alter your environment. It's not what illusionists do,
& it doesn't look like Lord of The Rings (Well, not usually. Would be cool if it did:)

You just say science. I say science & magic. Same thing. You say tomata, I say tomato. You just don't know that we're saying the same thing.

ovum and sperm coming together in the animating vehicle (where we get the term animal from by the way) is an amazing process, magical. You didn't get that that was what I was saying? Jeez louise.

Scientist manipulate already existing gross matter. That's actually known as sorcery :)

People always say they want to learn something new, but they usually don't. They just want to confirm their own biases and prejudices. When their belief system is challenged, as witnessed here, they tend to get a little upset & emotional.

Let's just agree to disagree, and leave it at that. Good night Mike. Take care.
 
Just wanted to quickly add something I forgot to mention (up WAY too late last night).

The paranormal & occult in general, and UFOs in particular, are like a Russian matryoshka doll. It's a truth, within a truth, within a truth. One truth is that a lot of this stuff is misidentified natural phenomenon. Another truth is that some of it is hoaxing. Another truth is that some of it is secret military craft. Another truth is that some witnesses are not well mentally. Yet another truth is that some of this is military psyop experiments. and there are yet other truths, and permutations of these truths.

So when I say that these manifestations are physical and not, I'm actually talking about the 5 to 10% of all of this that's closest to the final truth. And even with these, there's numerous variations of manifestations. The multiverse is an interesting place.

Just wanted to clarify the point I was trying to make. Take care.
 
You will incur the wrath of our "junior scientist" since we have several here if you don't agree that the mythical "primordial soup" is the reason we are all here. You are no more than a mistake or a by product of "chemical processess" and to choose between somebody like Rodger Penrose or Rupert Sheldrake or Brain Josphson (Nobel Winner in science) and somebody like James Randi is a no brainer. So, repeat after me "You are an accidental by product of "evolutionary forces" and James Randi is the wisest man in the world and Dawkins is a wonderful and wise fount of knowledge. The Paranormal is all bunk and the human spirit and all hopes and experience is simply a "cosmic accident" with no more spiritual signifigence than a roach bug. The reason our Junior scientist come on here and even "deem" to discuss something as silly as the paranormal on here is to save us from ourselves. Otherwise, they would be studying rocket science and discussing how silly it is that the sun and moon and earth are in such perfect allignment for life would cause us ignorent dweebs to think there is a purpose. Now, go polish your crystal ball and I'll polish up my rabbits foot and we will leave the real thinking to those who have it all figured out.
 
You will incur the wrath of our "junior scientist" since we have several here if you don't agree that the mythical "primordial soup" is the reason we are all here. You are no more than a mistake or a by product of "chemical processess" and to choose between somebody like Rodger Penrose or Rupert Sheldrake or Brain Josphson (Nobel Winner in science) and somebody like James Randi is a no brainer. So, repeat after me "You are an accidental by product of "evolutionary forces" and James Randi is the wisest man in the world and Dawkins is a wonderful and wise fount of knowledge. The Paranormal is all bunk and the human spirit and all hopes and experience is simply a "cosmic accident" with no more spiritual signifigence than a roach bug. The reason our Junior scientist come on here and even "deem" to discuss something as silly as the paranormal on here is to save us from ourselves. Otherwise, they would be studying rocket science and discussing how silly it is that the sun and moon and earth are in such perfect allignment for life would cause us ignorent dweebs to think there is a purpose. Now, go polish your crystal ball and I'll polish up my rabbits foot and we will leave the real thinking to those who have it all figured out.

LMAO!! You're my Hero! I hear and obey. Yabba, Dabba, Doo LOL :)
 
While I am an official "Junior Scientist" and lab rat with an undergrad in chemistry, (I am also a tech at Colorado State University), I know of several "real life" scientists who know that the complexities of life are no accident, nor could they be an accident. They just keep it to themselves so as not to lose their tenure. pb
 
If I may...

There's a lot of things I can't get my head wrapped around: the issue to me is NOT whether we agree or not with Hopkins/Jacobs investigative methods or the narrative structure they have constructed over the years based (allegedly) over the "evidence" they have gathered.

The issue here is that these researchers are being accused of taking the faculties and authority of a therapist over the individuals that come knocking on their door seeking for help —who may feel they are the victims of alien abduction for a variety of reasons, regardless of the validity of such claims. Therapists without a license prescribing hypnosis regressions, that can be as powerful or damaging as a psychotropic medicine.

So one of the things I can't understand is this: why is this battle being fought on internet forums, Fortean magazines and radio shows... and not in a court of law?

Another thing I can't understand is this minute paragraph that you can find in Carol Rainey's bio, as was published in the Paratopia magazine:
[...]She has also published short
stories, written feature-length screenplays and
teleplays, and co-authored the book Sight Unseen,
published in 2003 by Atria: Simon & Schuster.
Carol Rainey, grant writing services, writer, producer, director, New York City, NY, NYC, filmmaker
'Co-authored' "Sight Unseen"? the reader might ask, co-authored with *whom*? Why, co-authored with Budd Hopkins, the same man he accused of twisting accounts and not checking his sources for 11 pages.

Am I the only one who finds this a bit peculiar?

Why is it that "Sight Unseen", a book that was published after Hopkins became involved with Mortellaro, is never mentioned in one of those 11 pages? What do we make of this? Rainey pooh-poohs Hopkins' books... except that one?

In that article there's also an excerpt taken from Hopkins' private mail. Did she happen to have copyright permission to include it?

So, in the end, I do happen to agree with many of her conclusions. But I feel very uncertain about her motives, as well as her timing for "coming clean".

PS: The other article was much more to my liking. It starts a healthy discussion about why UFO researchers should try to adopt anonymous peer-reviews with their investigations, and other helpful measures.
 
I honestly don't know but her motives did kind of seem "off" in some way. She seems to be trying to sell her wares. Now, that's o.k. cause we all have to make a living. But, in that context it just seemed very self serving. Also, funny how Leslie Kean seems to be in the cross hairs of some folks lately considering her book and the reaction it has caused. The lack of legal action is also strange to me. Now Ms. Woods may indeed be a victim and Jacobs might be a loon or the other way around. I really don't know. But, why all the posturing and theats and mess on the web instead of in the court room. I think these and other issues make Gene's position much more understandable. Seems like the other guys (paratopia?) I've never really listened to them. Are just trying to stir the stink more than trying to uncover the truth. But, I don't want to take sides because the lady (Ms. Woods) may well be a victim. But, I do think she should look into getting more..uhhh, presentable friends to represent her. Especially if she isn't gonna take legal action.
 
So one of the things I can't understand is this: why is this battle being fought on internet forums, Fortean magazines and radio shows... and not in a court of law?

I think all those venues are appropriate, up to and including a court of law.

Another thing I can't understand is this minute paragraph that you can find in Carol Rainey's bio, as was published in the Paratopia magazine:
'Co-authored' "Sight Unseen"? the reader might ask, co-authored with *whom*? Why, co-authored with Budd Hopkins, the same man he accused of twisting accounts and not checking his sources for 11 pages.

Am I the only one who finds this a bit peculiar?

Why is that peculiar? Ms. Rainey went through a process of disillusionment over a long period of time. It is perfectly understandable. A person does not suddenly wake up one morning with a completely different view. It evolves as you notice more and more things and begin to get the big picture.

In that article there's also an excerpt taken from Hopkins' private mail. Did she happen to have copyright permission to include it?

It is legal to quote extracts from copyrighted material. I would think as a professional filmmaker and author Ms. Rainey has a good idea of what she can legally use.

But I feel very uncertain about her motives, as well as her timing for "coming clean".

Ms. Rainey makes her motives clear. It is because people are being hurt by this research. She wrote it after hearing about the Emma Woods case and being appalled.

PS: The other article was much more to my liking. It starts a healthy discussion about why UFO researchers should try to adopt anonymous peer-reviews with their investigations, and other helpful measures.

Yes. Roll on the day.

---------- Post added at 10:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:30 PM ----------

I honestly don't know but her motives did kind of seem "off" in some way.

I suppose if you didn't recognize the blatant abuse in Emma Woods' case yourself, you will also have a hard time understanding Ms. Rainey's motives for writing the article. She wrote it because she recognized the abuse.

Seems like the other guys (paratopia?) I've never really listened to them. Are just trying to stir the stink more than trying to uncover the truth. But, I don't want to take sides because the lady (Ms. Woods) may well be a victim. But, I do think she should look into getting more..uhhh, presentable friends to represent her. Especially if she isn't gonna take legal action.

If you never listened to Paratopia how do you know what they were doing? Maybe it would help if you listened to them before passing judgment. They have dug a lot of the truth out of the issues.

This is a show analyzing one of the recordings on Emma Woods' website. You might find it an eye-opener:

Podcast Hosting | Paratopia 57: The Emma Woods Tapes

This is an interview with Emma Woods:

Podcast Hosting | Paratopia 60: Emma Woods. The Intv.

This is a follow-up show that analyzes Jacobs' response and includes a letter from Ms. Rainey:

Podcast Hosting | Paratopia 62: Threatened By Hybrids

This an interview with another of Jacobs' subjects Brian Reed:

http://paratopia.org/?p=317
 
Remember that "Emma Woods" admits the recordings are excerpts, and that she edited some of them to remove personal information. Thus you know you're not getting the full picture, and you have no way of knowing whether the recordings are in the proper context. That said, certain some seem damning against Jacobs, but I am, as I said, concerned about the level of editing. What's more, anyone who says there was no editing involved is living in a dream world, based on her own admissions. You have no way of knowing what she kept, and what she left on the virtual cutting room floor.

If anyone says that it's easy to detect editing, just listen to any episode of The Paracast and list the edit points. :)
 
If you never listened to Paratopia how do you know what they were doing? Maybe it would help if you listened to them before passing judgment. They have dug a lot of the truth out of the issues.


Fair points but I am put off by some of the antics of Jeremy on youtube and other boards. Also, he seemed disrespectful to an elderly researcher and that was uncalled for. Still, I do admit I have not listened much. However, I have listened some in the past and was not overly impressed. But, I might tune in again when I get the chance. But, the Emma Woods thing just needs to either go to a court or an arbritrator or something. Cause she is just putting herself through a lot of stress (it seems) at this point. But, I'll butt out now cause I don't have all or even many of the facts.
 
If you never listened to Paratopia how do you know what they were doing? Maybe it would help if you listened to them before passing judgment. They have dug a lot of the truth out of the issues.


Fair points but I am put off by some of the antics of Jeremy on youtube and other boards. Also, he seemed disrespectful to an elderly researcher and that was uncalled for. Still, I do admit I have not listened much. However, I have listened some in the past and was not overly impressed. But, I might tune in again when I get the chance. But, the Emma Woods thing just needs to either go to a court or an arbritrator or something. Cause she is just putting herself through a lot of stress (it seems) at this point. But, I'll butt out now cause I don't have all or even many of the facts.

Not to be cynical, but "Emma Woods" has made herself into a sort of celebrity by playing the victim. She has spent countless hours editing and posting material for her site, and sending letters to anyone who'll listen to her tale of abuse. Had she simply made complaints to the proper parties and pursued legal remedies, few would know her name, or rather her pseudonym. As an alleged abductee, she ought to have a lot of valuable evidence to provide to researchers. Instead, she's dedicated her life to attacking David Jacobs, and yet she claims she is perfectly normal.
 
Remember that "Emma Woods" admits the recordings are excerpts, and that she edited some of them to remove personal information. Thus you know you're not getting the full picture, and you have no way of knowing whether the recordings are in the proper context. That said, certain some seem damning against Jacobs, but I am, as I said, concerned about the level of editing. What's more, anyone who says there was no editing involved is living in a dream world, based on her own admissions. You have no way of knowing what she kept, and what she left on the virtual cutting room floor.

What she left on the virtual cutting room floor is immaterial. The excerpts hang Jacobs. He is on tape implanting hypnotic suggestions in his subject's mind she had multiple personality disorder. He admitted to it on Coast 2 Coast. End of story.
 
What she left on the virtual cutting room floor is immaterial. The excerpts hang Jacobs. He is on tape implanting hypnotic suggestions in his subject's mind she had multiple personality disorder. He admitted to it on Coast 2 Coast. End of story.

And you read Jacobs' response on his site as to what information he planted — and why? Or did you bother?
 
She ain't the only one. The other show someone else mentioned is pretty much a one note affair nowadays.

Sadly the lunatic fringe is always going to be a part of this genre, and anyone doing any kind of research in this field is tapdancing in a minefield.
 
Not to be cynical, but "Emma Woods" has made herself into a sort of celebrity by playing the victim. She has spent countless hours editing and posting material for her site, and sending letters to anyone who'll listen to her tale of abuse. Had she simply made complaints to the proper parties and pursued legal remedies, few would know her name, or rather her pseudonym. As an alleged abductee, she ought to have a lot of valuable evidence to provide to researchers. Instead, she's dedicated her life to attacking David Jacobs, and yet she claims she is perfectly normal.

Emma Woods is not "playing the victim". She was a victim. It's because she made it known that we know about it. We need to know about it in this field. How can anyone say an abuser should go unchecked in ufology and there is a fault with the victim for making it known? It's an attitude that covers up abuse and keeps it going. We need a thorough examination and stock taking in this area of ufology.
 
And you read Jacobs' response on his site as to what information he planted — and why? Or did you bother?

Respectfully, Gene, but I don't care if he planted something as benign and trivial as the recipe for chocolate cookies.

The question is: why would he be allowed to plant ANYTHING on the mind of a person he's investigating? Who granted him such powers?
 
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