DissectionStalker
Paranormal Adept
I suggest Decker has the solution. It avoids a lot of off-topic "pushing peoples buttons" for set-up purposes.
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How DO Aliens get here and why do they crash?
- Thread starter Robert Baird
- Start date
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DissectionStalker
Paranormal Adept
Here is an on-topic post that suggests why aliens are not getting here...
Any advanced intelligence with similar abilities and interests in the Universe will have long since discovered life on our planet. We would have been explored by probes or other means within the last billion years or so. But is that very likely? Here are some good reasons to consider that it probably never happened... Will it ever happen? Maybe not...
Don't forget and keep in mind there is no reason intelligent life necessarily has to follow down a path we Humans have taken. We've had millions [or billions?] of life forms on our planet and only one came into being by sheer accident that does what we do. We are EXTREMELY rare on our planet. The odds are astronomical against Human intelligence happening.
We may be far more unique than most people believe. We needed Jupiter, our moon, and asteroids or comet impacts to create the conditions for Humans to come into existence. The odds are astronomical against an intelligent life form like ours existing just on our planet. It will be the same everywhere else assuming life generates easily enough on planets like ours. Meaning, it will never happen on most life giving planets. Btw, I don't think we've found a match yet in our galaxy of any planet being near identical to ours, nor have we found it within a protective solar system either.
Something tells me we are far more astronomically unique than we are being led to believe. Another "mythology control" objective that aids the PTB and MIC too? Certainly The Storytellers are telling us we are not alone, but are they telling us the truth that intelligent life does not exist as we do? The odds were astronomical against Humans taking form on our planet, and all other millions or billions of life forms here had no need to do what we do. We are likely very alone in the Universe with few intelligent life forms more advanced than we are if we consider what it took to produce Humans on planet Earth. We may even wipe-out our species soon if we can't protect our planet from impacts and the coming ice ages or self-destruction. At the rate we're going we may only have a slim chance of succeeding. We'll be lucky to colonize the Moon and Mars.
Any advanced intelligence with similar abilities and interests in the Universe will have long since discovered life on our planet. We would have been explored by probes or other means within the last billion years or so. But is that very likely? Here are some good reasons to consider that it probably never happened... Will it ever happen? Maybe not...
Don't forget and keep in mind there is no reason intelligent life necessarily has to follow down a path we Humans have taken. We've had millions [or billions?] of life forms on our planet and only one came into being by sheer accident that does what we do. We are EXTREMELY rare on our planet. The odds are astronomical against Human intelligence happening.
We may be far more unique than most people believe. We needed Jupiter, our moon, and asteroids or comet impacts to create the conditions for Humans to come into existence. The odds are astronomical against an intelligent life form like ours existing just on our planet. It will be the same everywhere else assuming life generates easily enough on planets like ours. Meaning, it will never happen on most life giving planets. Btw, I don't think we've found a match yet in our galaxy of any planet being near identical to ours, nor have we found it within a protective solar system either.
Something tells me we are far more astronomically unique than we are being led to believe. Another "mythology control" objective that aids the PTB and MIC too? Certainly The Storytellers are telling us we are not alone, but are they telling us the truth that intelligent life does not exist as we do? The odds were astronomical against Humans taking form on our planet, and all other millions or billions of life forms here had no need to do what we do. We are likely very alone in the Universe with few intelligent life forms more advanced than we are if we consider what it took to produce Humans on planet Earth. We may even wipe-out our species soon if we can't protect our planet from impacts and the coming ice ages or self-destruction. At the rate we're going we may only have a slim chance of succeeding. We'll be lucky to colonize the Moon and Mars.
Randall
J. Randall Murphy
Try to understand that just because people have different or opposing views and ways of expressing themselves does not mean that they are attacking you on a personal level, or aren't intelligent, or that they are bad people who are all part of some dark hate cult. That not only offends those whom you interact with, but also makes you sound like you need some professional help. So if you're not intentionally trying to be an agitant, then you need to do less editorializing and do more critical thinking.
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Robert Baird
Paranormal Maven
I suppose that scientists who have spent a great deal of their time and valuable assets discovering how matter acts under different laws and without constants are not worth listening to if you already know there are aliens among us. Maybe, Snagglepuss was your best teacher and the pulpit was your favorite refuge from the shadows in your dreams. The fact that mystics have been proven correct by Nobel Laureates in every hard science (See Re-discovering the Mind) is not going to mean anything because you have a cadre of friends who let you tell them what you think happens to you, as long as you listen to their narcissistic rationalizations.
"Other intelligent and technologically capable alien civilizations may exist in our Universe, but the problems with finding and communicating with them is that they are simply too far away for any meaningful two-way conversations. But what about the prospect of finding if life exists in other universes outside of our own?
Theoretical physics has brought us the notion that our single universe is not necessarily all there is. The "multiverse" idea is a hypothetical mega-universe full of numerous smaller universes, including our own.
In this month's Scientific American, Alejandro Jenkins from Florida State University and Gilad Perez, a theorist at the Weizmann Institute of Science in Israel, discuss how multiple other universes—each with its own laws of physics—may have emerged from the same primordial vacuum that gave rise to ours. Assuming they exist, many of those universes may contain intricate structures and perhaps even some forms of life. But the latest theoretical research suggests that our own universe may not be as “finely tuned” for the emergence of life as previously thought.
Jenkins and Perez write about a provocative hypothesis known as the anthropic principle, which states that the existence of intelligent life (capable of studying physical processes) imposes constraints on the possible form of the laws of physics.
"Our lives here on Earth — in fact, everything we see and know about the universe around us — depend on a precise set of conditions that makes us possible," Jenkins said. "For example, if the fundamental forces that shape matter in our universe were altered even slightly, it's conceivable that atoms never would have formed, or that the element carbon, which is considered a basic building block of life as we know it, wouldn't exist. So how is it that such a perfect balance exists? Some would attribute it to God, but of course, that is outside the realm of physics."
The theory of "cosmic inflation," which was developed in the 1980s in order to solve certain puzzles about the structure of our universe, predicts that ours is just one of countless universes to emerge from the same primordial vacuum. We have no way of seeing those other universes, although many of the other predictions of cosmic inflation have recently been corroborated by astrophysical measurements.
Given some of science's current ideas about high-energy physics, it is plausible that those other universes might each have different physical interactions. So perhaps it's no mystery that we would happen to occupy the rare universe in which conditions are just right to make life possible. This is analogous to how, out of the many planets in our universe, we occupy the rare one where conditions are right for organic evolution.
"What theorists like Dr. Perez and I do is tweak the calculations of the fundamental forces in order to predict the resulting effects on possible, alternative universes," Jenkins said. "Some of these results are easy to predict; for example, if there was no electromagnetic force, there would be no atoms and no chemical bonds. And without gravity, matter wouldn't coalesce into planets, stars and galaxies.
"What is surprising about our results is that we found conditions that, while very different from those of our own universe, nevertheless might allow — again, at least hypothetically — for the existence of life. (What that life would look like is another story entirely.) This actually brings into question the usefulness of the anthropic principle when applied to particle physics, and might force us to think more carefully about what the multiverse would actually contain."
A brief overview of the article is available for free on Scientific American's website.
Looking for Life in the Multiverse - Scientific American"
Seeking extraterrestrial life in the multiverse : Aliens & UFOs
"Other intelligent and technologically capable alien civilizations may exist in our Universe, but the problems with finding and communicating with them is that they are simply too far away for any meaningful two-way conversations. But what about the prospect of finding if life exists in other universes outside of our own?
Theoretical physics has brought us the notion that our single universe is not necessarily all there is. The "multiverse" idea is a hypothetical mega-universe full of numerous smaller universes, including our own.
In this month's Scientific American, Alejandro Jenkins from Florida State University and Gilad Perez, a theorist at the Weizmann Institute of Science in Israel, discuss how multiple other universes—each with its own laws of physics—may have emerged from the same primordial vacuum that gave rise to ours. Assuming they exist, many of those universes may contain intricate structures and perhaps even some forms of life. But the latest theoretical research suggests that our own universe may not be as “finely tuned” for the emergence of life as previously thought.
Jenkins and Perez write about a provocative hypothesis known as the anthropic principle, which states that the existence of intelligent life (capable of studying physical processes) imposes constraints on the possible form of the laws of physics.
"Our lives here on Earth — in fact, everything we see and know about the universe around us — depend on a precise set of conditions that makes us possible," Jenkins said. "For example, if the fundamental forces that shape matter in our universe were altered even slightly, it's conceivable that atoms never would have formed, or that the element carbon, which is considered a basic building block of life as we know it, wouldn't exist. So how is it that such a perfect balance exists? Some would attribute it to God, but of course, that is outside the realm of physics."
The theory of "cosmic inflation," which was developed in the 1980s in order to solve certain puzzles about the structure of our universe, predicts that ours is just one of countless universes to emerge from the same primordial vacuum. We have no way of seeing those other universes, although many of the other predictions of cosmic inflation have recently been corroborated by astrophysical measurements.
Given some of science's current ideas about high-energy physics, it is plausible that those other universes might each have different physical interactions. So perhaps it's no mystery that we would happen to occupy the rare universe in which conditions are just right to make life possible. This is analogous to how, out of the many planets in our universe, we occupy the rare one where conditions are right for organic evolution.
"What theorists like Dr. Perez and I do is tweak the calculations of the fundamental forces in order to predict the resulting effects on possible, alternative universes," Jenkins said. "Some of these results are easy to predict; for example, if there was no electromagnetic force, there would be no atoms and no chemical bonds. And without gravity, matter wouldn't coalesce into planets, stars and galaxies.
"What is surprising about our results is that we found conditions that, while very different from those of our own universe, nevertheless might allow — again, at least hypothetically — for the existence of life. (What that life would look like is another story entirely.) This actually brings into question the usefulness of the anthropic principle when applied to particle physics, and might force us to think more carefully about what the multiverse would actually contain."
A brief overview of the article is available for free on Scientific American's website.
Looking for Life in the Multiverse - Scientific American"
Seeking extraterrestrial life in the multiverse : Aliens & UFOs
Randall
J. Randall Murphy
There's nothing unscientific about the possibility of alien visitation.
The claim that, "... they [aliens] are simply too far away for any meaningful two-way conversations.", implies that the location and communication capabilities of the aliens in question is known, but the fact is, those details aren't known, and therefore the claim is unsupported. However I would agree that the distribution of stars in our galaxy and beyond makes communication using current proven technology a very slow process.
Sure. That's a possibility. But since we have not yet discovered any other universes, jumping to the conclusion that there are aliens in other universes is even more of a stretch than assuming they come from this one. Still, it's an interesting idea to contemplate.
The Leading Theory-Based Rejectionist Argument (which we all know)
The speed of light is a universal upper limit. Distances between stars range from 4.3 light years to Alpha Centauri to a hundred thousand light years across the Milky Way galaxy to millions of light years between galaxies. These facts are incompatible with tens of thousands of apparent visitations
Comment on the Argument
I agree completely that if the only way to get from star system A to star system B is to travel at sublight speed, this rules out frequent visitation. You might expect a visit once every ten thousand years (to cite a number I believe Carl Sagan once pulled out of his hat) even if the galaxy is teeming with civilizations. The questions is, are there conceivable alternatives to slogging through space? Maybe.
The Alternatives Worth Considering
The speed-of-light limit only applies to motion through four-dimensional spacetime. Perhaps wormholes are possible. That is a concept for which Kip Thorne gets the credit (or the blame). It is an old, but still valid, argument for how traveling through vast distances might be circumvented. Perhaps spacetime itself can be stretched as proposed by the relativist Miguel Alcubierre. There is no speed-of-light limit to spacetime stretching. After all, spacetime beyond the Hubble horizon must be receding from us at v>c. The Alcubierre "warp drive" (Class. Quant. Grav., 11-5, L73-L77, 1994) shows that spacetime warping and stretching around a bubble of flat spacetime is mathematically consistent with general relativity. This sounds promising, but the energy requirements seem to be impossible, which is of course not a good thing. Modern superstring and M-brane theory imply the existence of numerous additional dimensions. Recent work indicates that these additional dimensions may be much larger than the Planck scale. The article "The Universe's Unseen Dimensions" by Nima Arkani-Hamed, Savas Dimopoulos and Georgi Dvali in the August 2000 issue of Scientific American, for example, is a good summary of some current thinking on additional spatial dimensions as large as a millimeter: "Our whole universe may sit on a membrane floating in a higher-dimensional space. Extra dimensions might explain why gravity is so weak and could be the key to unifying all the forces of nature." Perhaps it is possible to lift off the membrane-universe constituting our four-dimensional spacetime, move in one of the additional dimensions where speed-of-light limits may not apply, and reenter our membrane-universe very far away. All of this is speculation of course, but it is worth noting that disappearing in place, changing shape or sometimes jumping discontinuously from location to location is frequently reported in UFO observations. Such behavior could conceivably be associated with motion into and out of a perpendicular dimension.
Possible Conclusion
The speed-of-light limit argument against the UFO phenomenon is a theory-based one, but even without suspending the laws of relativity it may not be valid. We simply know too little about other possibilities to rule them out, and for that reason the appropriate thing to do is to suspend judgment based on this argument.
Extraterrestrial Visitation
The speed of light is a universal upper limit. Distances between stars range from 4.3 light years to Alpha Centauri to a hundred thousand light years across the Milky Way galaxy to millions of light years between galaxies. These facts are incompatible with tens of thousands of apparent visitations
Comment on the Argument
I agree completely that if the only way to get from star system A to star system B is to travel at sublight speed, this rules out frequent visitation. You might expect a visit once every ten thousand years (to cite a number I believe Carl Sagan once pulled out of his hat) even if the galaxy is teeming with civilizations. The questions is, are there conceivable alternatives to slogging through space? Maybe.
The Alternatives Worth Considering
The speed-of-light limit only applies to motion through four-dimensional spacetime. Perhaps wormholes are possible. That is a concept for which Kip Thorne gets the credit (or the blame). It is an old, but still valid, argument for how traveling through vast distances might be circumvented. Perhaps spacetime itself can be stretched as proposed by the relativist Miguel Alcubierre. There is no speed-of-light limit to spacetime stretching. After all, spacetime beyond the Hubble horizon must be receding from us at v>c. The Alcubierre "warp drive" (Class. Quant. Grav., 11-5, L73-L77, 1994) shows that spacetime warping and stretching around a bubble of flat spacetime is mathematically consistent with general relativity. This sounds promising, but the energy requirements seem to be impossible, which is of course not a good thing. Modern superstring and M-brane theory imply the existence of numerous additional dimensions. Recent work indicates that these additional dimensions may be much larger than the Planck scale. The article "The Universe's Unseen Dimensions" by Nima Arkani-Hamed, Savas Dimopoulos and Georgi Dvali in the August 2000 issue of Scientific American, for example, is a good summary of some current thinking on additional spatial dimensions as large as a millimeter: "Our whole universe may sit on a membrane floating in a higher-dimensional space. Extra dimensions might explain why gravity is so weak and could be the key to unifying all the forces of nature." Perhaps it is possible to lift off the membrane-universe constituting our four-dimensional spacetime, move in one of the additional dimensions where speed-of-light limits may not apply, and reenter our membrane-universe very far away. All of this is speculation of course, but it is worth noting that disappearing in place, changing shape or sometimes jumping discontinuously from location to location is frequently reported in UFO observations. Such behavior could conceivably be associated with motion into and out of a perpendicular dimension.
Possible Conclusion
The speed-of-light limit argument against the UFO phenomenon is a theory-based one, but even without suspending the laws of relativity it may not be valid. We simply know too little about other possibilities to rule them out, and for that reason the appropriate thing to do is to suspend judgment based on this argument.
Extraterrestrial Visitation
But recently White calculated what would happen if the shape of the ring encircling the spacecraft was adjusted into more of a rounded donut, as opposed to a flat ring. He found in that case, the warp drive could be powered by a mass about the size of a spacecraft like the Voyager 1 probe NASA launched in 1977.
Furthermore, if the intensity of the space warps can be oscillated over time, the energy required is reduced even more, White found.
"The findings I presented today change it from impractical to plausible and worth further investigation," White told SPACE.com. "The additional energy reduction realized by oscillating the bubble intensity is an interesting conjecture that we will enjoy looking at in the lab."
Warp Drive More Possible Than Thought, Scientists Say
Furthermore, if the intensity of the space warps can be oscillated over time, the energy required is reduced even more, White found.
"The findings I presented today change it from impractical to plausible and worth further investigation," White told SPACE.com. "The additional energy reduction realized by oscillating the bubble intensity is an interesting conjecture that we will enjoy looking at in the lab."
Warp Drive More Possible Than Thought, Scientists Say
If thats the counter you offer to the datapoints people have presented then you have nothing worthwhile to say imo
... Insults are the last refuge of the out-argued
Robert Baird
Paranormal Maven
There is something unscientific about saying you will not consider the dimensional travel reality of modern physics. Do I need to quote someone here?
Then there is you ridiculing Hank Wesselmann and the concept of communication through time which CERN has certainly prepared us for and Quantum teleporting which is in use might relate to, but which I have supplied explanations for with Da Vinci's Bike and the Philosopher's Stone throughout millennia. I have other dimensional proofs including Bi-Location, Father Ernetti's chronovisor (worked with Fermi), Carlos Castaneda and personal experiences I have explained here etc.
Yes, those scientists are aware of what they know and do not know - but they make that judgement because they are aware of the probabilities and difficulties - more than you are.
Randall
J. Randall Murphy
Very true, and actually, in one sense, there's truth in @Robert Baird's comment about it being pointless to listen to all the scientific arguments against alien visitation if one already knows they're here, and the fact is they're here, or at least they've been here in recent times, so wherever they're from, they're getting here somehow. We just don't know how, and that should make scientists very curious. Some scientists in the past have been curious, while others have simply rejected the idea. They think it can't happen so it isn't happening, and that's all their minds can handle.
Thats not what he said at all, you are being deliberately obtuse (and thats putting it kindly)
He simply stated there are other possibilitys with a higher order of probability, he did NOT dismiss it
Extraterrestrial Visitation and Superstring Theory
Its actually you who has become so self obsessed with your pet theorys that you cant consider anything that doesnt fit those theorys.
This forum is a place to exchange ideas , its a Forum not the lecture theatre you have been treating it as such.
Robert Baird
Paranormal Maven
Dear Mike
You have a lot to learn from Snagglepuss. I doubt he would focus on just that little part of a largely scientific post. He did not feel insecure in his knowledge. He was heard to say - "I think therefore I AM". That I AM consciousness or YHVH is central to the Harmonic and Logos. In String Theory we learn that all matter is comprised of one dimensional harmonic force.
Robert Baird
Paranormal Maven
What he are you referring to? I asked if I needed to get a quote from a person here who said they have heard enough about multiverses and dimensions.
And to quote you:
even without suspending the laws of relativity it may not be valid
FTL is not outside the laws of relativity and Einstein said so near his life's end. Gödel who worked with him even more so. I think I quote them both and Bucky on this point in The World Mind thread.
You claimed
Might be time to take the advice of your self avowed guru, or is that Yogi, You seem to draw a lot of inspiration from cartoon animals
But what he said was
Might be time to take the advice of your self avowed guru, or is that Yogi, You seem to draw a lot of inspiration from cartoon animals
Ive posted several links that suggest FTL is indeed possible, and one thats sympathetic to the trans dimension possibility.
You dont seem to be comprehending anything
Its like watching a demented pinball bounce off the bumpers and kickers of the Paracast pinball machine
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Robert Baird
Paranormal Maven
And you did quote something of value - which I quoted here on the first or second page when I was hoping maybe someone could help give ideas of how we can colonize space. Ufology was saying the speed issue was a big one and I was saying his comment about craft tensile strength was a non issue due to the donut shaped shield or energy.
"The findings I presented today change it from impractical to plausible and worth further investigation," White told SPACE.com. "The additional energy reduction realized by oscillating the bubble intensity is an interesting conjecture that we will enjoy looking at in the lab."
Warp Drive More Possible Than Thought, Scientists Say
"The findings I presented today change it from impractical to plausible and worth further investigation," White told SPACE.com. "The additional energy reduction realized by oscillating the bubble intensity is an interesting conjecture that we will enjoy looking at in the lab."
Warp Drive More Possible Than Thought, Scientists Say
Robert Baird
Paranormal Maven
Dear Mike
You really need a mirror.
I quoted you and now you are waffling about. Get a grip.
And to quote you: (This is YOU)
even without suspending the laws of relativity it may not be valid
FTL is not outside the laws of relativity and Einstein said so near his life's end. Gödel who worked with him even more so. I think I quote them both and Bucky on this point in The World Mind thread.
Click to expand...
Ive posted several links that suggest FTL is indeed possible, and one thats sympathetic to the trans dimension possibility.
You dont seem to be comprehending anything
Its like watching a demented pinball bounce off the bumpers and kickers of the Paracast pinball machine
You really need a mirror.
I quoted you and now you are waffling about. Get a grip.
And to quote you: (This is YOU)
even without suspending the laws of relativity it may not be valid
FTL is not outside the laws of relativity and Einstein said so near his life's end. Gödel who worked with him even more so. I think I quote them both and Bucky on this point in The World Mind thread.
Click to expand...
Ive posted several links that suggest FTL is indeed possible, and one thats sympathetic to the trans dimension possibility.
You dont seem to be comprehending anything
Its like watching a demented pinball bounce off the bumpers and kickers of the Paracast pinball machine
Like i said you have a comprehension problem what i posted was this
The speed-of-light limit argument against the UFO phenomenon is a theory-based one, but even without suspending the laws of relativity it may not be valid. We simply know too little about other possibilities to rule them out, and for that reason the appropriate thing to do is to suspend judgment based on this argument.
Not withstanding its a quote from the website i linked not my words, Its clearly a rebutal of the speed of light limit argument
The speed-of-light limit argument against the UFO phenomenon is a theory-based one, but even without suspending the laws of relativity it may not be valid. We simply know too little about other possibilities to rule them out, and for that reason the appropriate thing to do is to suspend judgment based on this argument.
Not withstanding its a quote from the website i linked not my words, Its clearly a rebutal of the speed of light limit argument
Randall
J. Randall Murphy
Yes, you need to quote me where I actually say I, "will not consider the dimensional travel reality of modern physics."
I simply quoted Wikipedia, and find Wesselmann's claim of being in contact with "Nainoa", an ethnic Hawaiian kahuna (shaman) living some 5,000 years in our future, laughable. Why? Because regardless of whatever abstract math is used to back up the concept of time-communication from the future, the idea that it's possible in the real world defies logic, and logical conclusions are not simply opinions. Therefore if you want to change my view you would have to demonstrate a flaw in the logic. Nobody has yet been able to do that, but I welcome anyone who can, and if they're successful, I'll be more than happy to update my position accordingly.
Appeals to authority aren't always accurate. In fact I think you may find that authority has been proven wrong many times in the past. That is at least one direction in time that we can gather information from via real-world evidence.