How Silly is Climate Change Denial?

[Tyger]

I link to Thom Hartmann because not only is he well-informed and intelligent, he is an honest man. I have watched him change his opinion when the facts presented require a shift. He is always thought provoking.

The Last Hours of Humanity: Warming the World to Extinction

Poster: "Glad to finally hear someone talking about this. It appears that both the Permian extinction and the PETM occurred in two phases; first the release the CO2 causing the initial pulse in warming, following by a massive pulse of methane clathrates released from the ocean. The second phase caused the greatest extinction. Extrapolating to the present: are we doing the same thing today? Will the CO2 we throw into the atmosphere from the combustion of fossil fuels warm the oceans to the point that sometime this century a massive pulse of methane is released causing a sudden 4-6 degree Celsius rise in temperature? Should this occur, it would mean the sixth mass extinction since the Precambrian."


The following is the documentary that Hartmann references -

The Day The Earth Nearly Died - Full Documentary

This is something I found - I am always fascinated by the computer generated visuals of the scenarios -

Earth Under Water in The Next 20 Years 2013 Documentary

Text: "EARTH UNDER WATER DOCUMENTARY Imagine sea levels rising to over 70 meters. Eminent climatologists think another Great Flood is inevitable if current CO2 em.

 

[Jeff Davis]

This is not the argument. Yes, there has always been climate change - that is not the issue - and has not been the debating point. The argument is that this time around, the evidence is that humans are contributing to the Global Warming - that humanity's activities have started the Global Warming snowball rolling this time around for the first time in the earth's history of climate change. This has been addressed in the course of the thread. The evidence is persuasive that humanity's activity has been the impetus for starting up what is a climate change before it's time sequence. (The warmings have a natural rhythm in a geological sense - and the current events are 'before time', happening before expected to occur).

As for this other point - that humanity is being egotistical, thinking it is impacting something it is 'contained' by - it is well known and observed that living beings do in fact change the environment they are 'contained by' all the time. Humans have done it routinely across the centuries wherever they live - even at the simple level of nomadic tribesman. We are human so we are able to observe and reflect on our impact - this is of course unique among the animal world. However, animals effect changes - as do plants - though they are unable to articulate anything because they do not self-consciously observe themselves. But living beings do effect change - even though they are 'contained' by what they change (nature).

Tyger,
You didn't "get" the jokes contained within. It was meant in lighthearted jest via the Mastodon & "UFOs are more important" mention. The magnificent Mastodons were eliminated via natural climate change, however they in no way willfully contributed to the effect of what did them in. UFOs are more important? That was meant to get a laugh, poorly done I guess.

Look, there is no question that temporary and superficial changes can occur that effect the immediate environment of those that act willfully, or those "contaminants" introduced to foreign environments. One such example would be the classic dust bowl scenario created in the United States. Another, the Asian Carp.

I do not believe for one second that mankind can do in the planet via carbon based emissions. Volcanoes have been dispersing far more emissions of the precise same nature for MILLIONS of years now. Where's the evidence of GW due to them?

The ONLY ethical consideration IMO relating to our environment at this time is twofold Tyger, and it's VERY serious because it's a fact minus any hypothetical guesswork. Poisoning our water systems, and clearing jungle, are a trillion times more lethal than ANY industry, or socially based facilitation like transportation, in terms of harmful emissions. In just the last 20 years alone we have lost dramatic numbers of wildlife in the name of mankind's greed. Countless species actually. Mostly in South America, Malaysia, and China's rain forests. This is MURDER IMO.

I really do feel the entire GW thing is completely overblown and is entirely politically based. Go after the real bad guys. The ones destroying plant and animal life to the point of absolute extinction prior to the species ever being identified, let alone studied in terms of value to ourselves as species most concerned with it's well being. Any clue just how many pharmaceutical medicines are botanically derived? The cure for AIDS, Cancer, MS, etc. may have all been found and effectively administered in just the last 20 years. Too bad we may have destroyed those species prior to even studying their possible medicinal value for us eh?

 

[Tyger]

Tyger, You didn't "get" the jokes contained within. It was meant in lighthearted jest via the Mastodon & "UFOs are more important" mention. The magnificent Mastodons were eliminated via natural climate change, however they in no way willfully contributed to the effect of what did them in. UFOs are more important? That was meant to get a laugh, poorly done I guess.

The UFO mention I figured was a joke. The rest, not so much. Me being one-track at the moment. Apologies.

Look, there is no question that temporary and superficial changes can occur that effect the immediate environment of those that act willfully, or those "contaminants" introduced to foreign environments. One such example would be the classic dust bowl scenario created in the United States. Another, the Asian Carp.

Yep, and so much else.

I do not believe for one second that mankind can do in the planet via carbon based emissions. Volcanoes have been dispersing far more emissions of the precise same nature for MILLIONS of years now. Where's the evidence of GW due to them?

It's not doing it by itself - human initiated emissions started the process going, 'before time'. In a sense, humanity has been one volcano going off continuously - and progressively worse - on a yearly basis for a couple of centuries. In nature, there may be one big volcanic eruption - capable of dramatic global impact - once in a century, at most. Emissions from such are intense for a short time and then dissipate over time. All natural systems 'recover', or are able to adjust. Humanity's 'insult' to the natural system has been continuous, on a daily basis, with ever increasing impact - for decades, centuries.

The ONLY ethical consideration IMO relating to our environment at this time is twofold Tyger, and it's VERY serious because it's a fact minus any hypothetical guesswork.

GW/AGW is far from 'hypothetical guesswork'. IMO anyway. I have looked at the science and in sum it holds up. IMO.

Poisoning our water systems, and clearing jungle, are a trillion times more lethal than ANY industry, or socially based facilitation like transportation, in terms of harmful emissions.

You get this statistic from where? While I am completely of the mind that pollution of any sort is lethal, your comment strikes me as 'hypothetical guesswork'. I know where your comment comes from (I think) and can agree with the pov, though not the overblown comparison. It's all of a piece - it all is a symptom of an attitude that needs correcting.

In just the last 20 years alone we have lost dramatic numbers of wildlife in the name of mankind's greed. Countless species actually. Mostly in South America, Malaysia, and China's rain forests. This is MURDER IMO.

It's a loss that will have a consequence to humanity as a whole in ways it does not understand. Very sad story.

I really do feel the entire GW thing is completely overblown and is entirely politically based.

This is your opinion, but I cannot look at the science and think any of it is 'politically based'. This has been an uphill battle. The organized opposition is definitely economic based. That I will agree.

Go after the real bad guys. The ones destroying plant and animal life to the point of absolute extinction prior to the species ever being identified, let alone studied in terms of value to ourselves as species most concerned with it's well being. Any clue just how many pharmaceutical medicines are botanically derived? The cure for AIDS, Cancer, MS, etc. may have all been found and effectively administered in just the last 20 years. Too bad we may have destroyed those species prior to even studying their possible medicinal value for us eh?

Which is all of us allowing industry to pollute the air with toxic emissions and rivers with toxic industrial run-off, open mines, slag heaps - not cleaning up after themselves/ourselves. The 'bad guys' are all of us making money investing in the companies that exist because they can pollute and destroy freely, without consequence. Even without paying taxes - they can destroy our habitat for free - and we thank them with no taxes. It is not a 'them' - it is 'us'.

 

[Jeff Davis]

The UFO mention I figured was a joke. The rest, not so much. Me being one-track at the moment. Apologies.

Yep, and so much else.

It's not doing it by itself - human initiated emissions started the process going, 'before time'. In a sense, humanity has been one volcano going off continuously - and progressively worse - on a yearly basis for a couple of centuries. In nature, there may be one big volcanic eruption - capable of dramatic global impact - once in a century, at most. Emissions from such are intense for a short time and then dissipate over time. All natural systems 'recover', or are able to adjust. Humanity's 'insult' to the natural system has been continuous, on a daily basis, with ever increasing impact - for decades, centuries.

GW/AGW is far from 'hypothetical guesswork'. IMO anyway. I have looked at the science and in sum it holds up. IMO.

You get this statistic from where? While I am completely of the mind that pollution of any sort is lethal, your comment strikes me as 'hypothetical guesswork'. I know where your comment comes from (I think) and can agree with the pov, though not the overblown comparison. It's all of a piece - it all is a symptom of an attitude that needs correcting.


It's a loss that will have a consequence to humanity as a whole in ways it does not understand. Very sad story.

This is your opinion, but I cannot look at the science and think any of it is 'politically based'. This has been an uphill battle. The organized opposition is definitely economic based. That I will agree.

Which is all of us allowing industry to pollute the air with toxic emissions and rivers with toxic industrial run-off, open mines, slag heaps - not cleaning up after themselves/ourselves. The 'bad guys' are all of us making money investing in the companies that exist because they can pollute and destroy freely, without consequence. Even without paying taxes - they can destroy our habitat for free - and we thank them with no no taxes. It is not a 'them' - it is 'us'.

The "trillion times" is a tongue in cheek exaggeration exemplifying the provable loss to which I refer. I would think even for the one track minded that would be quite clear. Did you honestly take that to be statistical? Trillion, really? I can factually point to the PERMANANT damage with respect to what I referred to. That's NOT hypothetical guesswork my friend, whereas GW, is 100% politically motivated misappropriated fraudulent scientific research. (and has been CLEARLY demonstrated as being such by the unbiased members of our own scientific community, some of which literally resigned out of utter outrage)

Total BS IMO apart from CONvincing argumentation from the misguided, cause afflicted, ignorant masses. If it's not obvious that this is a global power grab, I kind of feel bad for our society's inept vulnerability. Then again, for some the wind blows in an effort to wax clean the dead and dying. For others however, it's a matter of fortification as it serves to strengthen our root's very organism.

Listen to fools, the mob will surely rule. I advise us all to have something far better to do than simply be the wind in the sails of mankind's GREED.

 

[Tyger]

GW, is 100% politically motivated misappropriated fraudulent scientific research. (and has been CLEARLY demonstrated as being such by the unbiased members of our own scientific community, some of which literally resigned out of utter outrage)

You will believe what you will believe. I am not interested in convincing you. This is not my area of science - but I have read the science and know some who have worked and done research in this area. It is sincere and honest scientific research.

There is absolutely nothing factual about your "100% politically motivated misappropriated fraudulent scientific research" comment. You know you are dealing with manipulation when you are fed that there are two sides. No such animal exists in science. Science is not a this or that - never has been.

As I say - believe what you will. The consequences are upon us - the tipping point long since past. Now we must deal with it.

 

[Jeff Davis]

You will believe what you will believe. I am not interested in convincing you. This is not my area of science - but I have read the science and know some who have worked and done research in this area. It is sincere and honest scientific research.

There is absolutely nothing factual about your "100% politically motivated misappropriated fraudulent scientific research" comment. You know you are dealing with manipulation when you are fed that there are two sides. No such animal exists in science. Science is not a this or that - never has been.

As I say - believe what you will. The consequences are upon us - the tipping point long since past. Now we must deal with it.

Ignorance in action my friend. THERE ARE ALWAYS TWO SIDES TO ANY CONTROVERSY. Lies here. Show me undeniable FACTS in terms of resolved scientific proof if that is not the case. You cannot apart from consensus opinions based on UNPROVEN HYPOTHETICAL EVIDENCE.

edit: a few hours later...

I failed to recognize the obvious earlier. I reflected on this for a few hours and it dawned on me that Tyger has merely quickly substituted a strawman into the rational foray here. We are not discussing what is and what is not Science Mam. We are discussing global warming which is an absolute sham initiated and forwarded by it's initial Al Gore led movement. And a movement it certainly is (of a most certain bowel nature).

Climate Alarmists Caught Doctoring ‘97 Percent Consensus’ Claims | Human Events

 

[Tyger]

Ignorance in action my friend. THERE ARE ALWAYS TWO SIDES TO ANY CONTROVERSY. Lies here. Show me undeniable FACTS in terms of resolved scientific proof if that is not the case. You cannot apart from consensus opinions based on UNPROVEN HYPOTHETICAL EVIDENCE.

edit: a few hours later...

I failed to recognize the obvious earlier. I reflected on this for a few hours and it dawned on me that Tyger has merely quickly substituted a strawman into the rational foray here. We are not discussing what is and what is not Science Mam. We are discussing global warming which is an absolute sham initiated and forwarded by it's initial Al Gore led movement. And a movement it certainly is (of a most certain bowel nature).

Climate Alarmists Caught Doctoring ‘97 Percent Consensus’ Claims | Human Events

I had not been aware that Jeff Davis did a shout-out to me.

My response -
- I have not substituted a strawman - what is or is not science is not a strawman - science is not an either/or. Fact. Not strawman. Science exploration is not always blurry, but answers can be provisional and ambiguous. Yes, it can be so.

- This is not (necessarily) a rational foray.

- Global Warming is far from a sham - definitely not 'led' by Al Gore, nor was he the initial person to speak on it. Scientists have been talking about this for decades. Consider Isaac Asimov in 1989 - at 11:00 he begins to talk about the viability of the earth - then veers off to other topics. At 33:00 he answers a CO2 question. Then another question at 42:25. This is in January of 1989 - Al Gore was 'leading' nothing here. I offer this here only to show that many ideas being passed around now have been around for decades.

TEXT: "Isaac Asimov speaks in 1989 on how humanity can come together and save the planet for future civilization. (This is the complete speech.) Asimov's talk includes insight on climate change, global warming, deforestation, space energy solution, the American Civil War, the Cold War, and more. This science fiction writer here makes this most important prediction of how human's can save civilized life on earth."

And the weather - in SoCal yesterday and today we have had heavy, humid weather. Humid! We have hot - we do not have humid. This is not Florida - but we are having humid weather.

Look at this video of a hailstorm in Russia on July 12th, 2014 -

TEXT: "A sudden hail storm in Russia (Novosibirsk) 12.07.2014. Sudden cold snap to 20 degrees (from 41 to 21), plus strong winds and hail. This is Siberia, baby."

LINK: Amazing hail storm on a beach looks like the beginning of the Apocalypse

 

[Bananas]

Denying the climate is changing is silly. However, stating to know the reason for a fact is just as stupid. We have guesses of varying education, but if you dig into it, no one actually can say with any certainty what's causing it, and what (if any) effect we have on it. Stating that humans are doing it as if it was a fact is as stupid as stating the climate isn't changing.

 

[Tyger]

Denying the climate is changing is silly. However, stating to know the reason for a fact is just as stupid. We have guesses of varying education, but if you dig into it, no one actually can say with any certainty what's causing it, and what (if any) effect we have on it. Stating that humans are doing it as if it was a fact is as stupid as stating the climate isn't changing.

Humankind's contributory role in Climate Change is pretty solid science at this point. The entire system is a study-in-progress, it is true, but humans are part of the system, and we impact it. Can't get around that.

 

[Bananas]

I worded it poorly. I meant that stating humans are the sole reason for it is silly.

 

[Tyger]

I worded it poorly. I meant that stating humans are the sole reason for it is silly.

What started the ball rolling down the hill? Massive numbers of factors are now playing into the system shift - but we have a pretty good idea who started the system change. A petulant "It's not our fault!" doesn't cut it. We're a significant player in this shift - and we can effect how it proceeds.

 

[Bananas]

What started the ball rolling down the hill? Massive numbers of factors are now playing into the system shift - but we have a pretty good idea who started the system change. A petulant "It's not our fault!" doesn't cut it. We're a significant player in this shift - and we can effect how it proceeds.

While I completely agree that we should do all we can to avert the changes, and take much better care of the planet alltogether, saying "we have a good idea" is simply not true. It's protrayed as being a solid theory, but if you stop watching documentaries and YT videos, and actually read the literature, you realise that it's not actually on solid ground at all. There are far too many unknowns in the mix at this point to say one way or the other with any certainty what the root cause of it all is. Now, I can understand why this issue is portrayed as it is, it's a good reason to do so (getting people to stop destroying the planet and it's atmosphere), but the degree of understanding is grossly exaggerated.

Again, I wholly support every effort to mitigate emissions and to stop demolishing the planet because we don't own it, we borrow it from the next generation.

 

[Tyger]

27 Powerful Photos That Show The Reality Of Climate Change Today

LINK: 27 Powerful Photos That Show The Reality Of Climate Change Today

TEXT: "The planet is changing rapidly, and in a way that doesn't bode well for Earthlings. Climate change may seem complicated or like a far-away thing that doesn't matter to your daily life--but it DOES. It’s here, happening now, and already jeopardizing the things we need for survival. You just have to know where to look."

 

[Tyger]

From the link in the above post -

NASA | Piecing Together the Temperature Puzzle

Uploaded on Feb 23, 2010
TEXT: "The decade from 2000 to 2009 was the warmest in the modern record. "Piecing Together the Temperature Puzzle" illustrates how NASA satellites enable us to study possible causes of climate change. The video explains what role fluctuations in the solar cycle, changes in snow and cloud cover, and rising levels of heat-trapping gases may play in contributing to climate change."

 

[manxman]

Dont waste your time bananaman, debating global warming, or whatever the latest trendy name they have for it now, is a waste of energy/time, most yanks and all north yanks [canadians], are totally Al Gored.

 

[Fcseven]

It looks like there is a huge amount of methane releasing from Siberia lately. There is word it created the mysterious Siberian holes that were in the news last month. If we are in the process of runaway methane release we're dead.

I never used to believe it was happening since the elite were pushing it so hard but now I know it's happening and think the globalists are somehow causing it.

 

[Tyger]

It looks like there is a huge amount of methane releasing from Siberia lately. There is word it created the mysterious Siberian holes that were in the news last month. If we are in the process of runaway methane release we're dead.

Sadly, we know. Scientists have been warning about the methane for decades and now we've long since passed the tipping-point. The deniers had their day and won. Action was never taken on an adequate scale. Now we must deal with the consequences - and the consequences are beyond a common person's understanding or grasp. We can't conceive it. Even governments can't conceive it. The problem is so vast it defies grasping. Instead we shoot ourselves to oblivion in various areas of the world.

Okay - a storm flattens a town. We rebuild. Rivers overflow. We rebuild. We move. We throw some money at it. Methane? Suicide. We've put the gun to our heads and pulled the trigger. Fools.

Was in a conversation about this yesterday with a scientist buddy. Marina del Rey - as you can see from the photos - had a fish die-off wash up. I asked his opinion about these die-offs - was it Fukushima or Global Warming? The radiation getting to us here on the West Coast (California) from Fukushima is very, very much weakened. It's not a health issue. His view is the die-offs are happening because of global warming. Those years when the temperature flat-lined and deniers pointed to that as refuting evidence was actually a time when the oceans were absorbing the heat.

I never used to believe it was happening since the elite were pushing it so hard but now I know it's happening and think the globalists are somehow causing it.

What is - or who are - the globalists? Never heard that word.

BTW I never saw an 'elite' pushing this. How do you figure 'elites'? The environmental movement from the get-go with Rachel Carson's 'Silent Spring' has waged an uphill battle - ridiculed and derided by the foolish and ill-informed. 'Elites' have not been particularly sensitive to issues of waste and emissions as long as they (the wealthy) lived far away from the toxic dump or emitting smoke-stack.

We know what's caused it - industrialization - and we had it in our power to reverse the onward march. But you know, now it hardly matters - except as an expensive lesson. The system is in gear. It will play out. There is very little we can do to impact the natural system's 'adjustment'. We are indeed seeing the beginning of the 'Sixth Extinction'. Solutions now will be technological - and there are researchers trying to figure a way to off-set what is coming. It's a race with time.

We're long past AGW vs GW argument. It's done. What the AGW scientists predicted is engaged and playing out, matters not the cause - except as a lesson. We have to figure out how to solve this - and the only solution is technological.

 

[Myself]

Bri

Sadly, we know. Scientists have been warning about the methane for decades and now we've long since passed the tipping-point. The deniers had their day and won. Action was never taken on an adequate scale. Now we must deal with the consequences - and the consequences are beyond a common person's understanding or grasp. We can't conceive it. Even governments can't conceive it. The problem is so vast it defies grasping. Instead we shoot ourselves to oblivion in various areas of the world.

Okay - a storm flattens a town. We rebuild. Rivers overflow. We rebuild. We move. We throw some money at it. Methane? Suicide. We've put the gun to our heads and pulled the trigger. Fools.

Was in a conversation about this yesterday with a scientist buddy. Marina del Rey - as you can see from the photos - had a fish die-off wash up. I asked his opinion about these die-offs - was it Fukushima or Global Warming? The radiation getting to us here on the West Coast (California) from Fukushima is very, very much weakened. It's not a health issue. His view is the die-offs are happening because of global warming. Those years when the temperature flat-lined and deniers pointed to that as refuting evidence was actually a time when the oceans were absorbing the heat.



What is - or who are - the globalists? Never heard that word.

BTW I never saw an 'elite' pushing this. How do you figure 'elites'? The environmental movement from the get-go with Rachel Carson's 'Silent Spring' has waged an uphill battle - ridiculed and derided by the foolish and ill-informed. 'Elites' have not been particularly sensitive to issues of waste and emissions as long as they (the wealthy) lived far away from the toxic dump or emitting smoke-stack.

We know what's caused it - industrialization - and we had it in our power to reverse the onward march. But you know, now it hardly matters - except as an expensive lesson. The system is in gear. It will play out. There is very little we can do to impact the natural system's 'adjustment'. We are indeed seeing the beginning of the 'Sixth Extinction'. Solutions now will be technological - and there are researchers trying to figure a way to off-set what is coming. It's a race with time.

We're long past AGW vs GW argument. It's done. What the AGW scientists predicted is engaged and playing out, matters not the cause - except as a lesson. We have to figure out how to solve this - and the only solution is technological.

brilliant comment "Tyger" but I have to agree with other posters. This stuff should be left to scientist to hash out. Not people with no background studying climate. Who also have an agenda to debunk.

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Disagree with your comments as the so called Global Warming watergate affects everyone not just scientist and latest data suggest the Earth is cooling rather more tax grabbing and protection racket for GM group!

 

[Tyger]

"As Ray Bradbury said, I don’t write to predict the future — I write to prevent it."

It looks like there is a huge amount of methane releasing from Siberia lately. There is word it created the mysterious Siberian holes that were in the news last month. If we are in the process of runaway methane release we're dead.

The holes smell like methane. Vast plumes of methane bubbles have been observed rising from the sediment on the Siberian margin. However, some scientists still posit that it remains fossil fuels that we need to stay focussed on. That is to be hoped since it is fossil fuels we can control, we cannot control the Arctic methane gas releases.

How much methane came out of that hole in Siberia?
LINK: RealClimate: How much methane came out of that hole in Siberia?