James Carrion, "The Rosetta Deception," July 20, 2014

[Bananas]

Carrion makes a pretty good argument for his deception theories, but I find it strange virtually no ex military personnel that I know of have claimed knowledge of these deceptions and if Roswell was a deception against the Russians why wouldn't the military just say so. I don't see what the military would have to gain after all these years by not just admitting they were deceptions.

Well, think about it. What would they gain by doing so? I mean, it's the perfect cover for testing new airplanes without alerting the other superpowers to them, and to keep them guessing. What's best, they no longer have to do anything actively, it's so ingrained in the culture and people keep perpetrating these myths by their own accord. They only stand to lose by coming clean about any of this.

Also, the wall might have come down, but the cold war between superpowers never actually ended, it simply took a break. It will never end as long as we have entities called nations.

 

[technomage]

Excellent show. James Carrion provided a lot of interesting information and food for thought.

I was surprised when Gene asked about real high strange cases that probably weren't deception, that James didn't mention the radar cases or radar with visual confirmation case (e.g. RV-55 or whatever it was called). Was the entire 1952 flap a deception as well? What about the non-US cases, like those in South America, or the Tehran 1976 case?. I know he hasn't investigated all of these, but I think some of these top cases should be mentioned.

 

[boomerang]

Great interview ! Carrion comes across as a sincere and well researched critical thinker. His focus on the stagecraft aspect of the UFO phenomenon is well aimed.

My major reservation is whether the technologies necessary to successfully deceive legit witnesses was available during the time frames discussed. Assuming, as we always do, that stuff still in the black box is at least 10 years ahead of public sector awareness, we needn't stretch our credulity too far. The underlying motivation of ours and other governments to invest the considerable resources necessary to keep the mythology intact for over half a century also seems in question. But if there is a "something" in the direction Carrion has taken, I think he may well be onto it.

And--Big points for his Roswell observation that Haut's press release of a crashed disc was almost certainly deliberate. The "big PR typo" theory just isn't tenable.

 

[Charlie Prime]

The underlying motivation of ours and other governments to invest the considerable resources necessary to keep the mythology intact for over half a century also seems in question.

Considering the Trillions of dollars in white and black budget spending they do, I think the few million dollars necessary to run a UFO media psyop would be completely negligible.

 

[Burnt State]

Great interview ! Carrion comes across as a sincere and well researched critical thinker. His focus on the stagecraft aspect of the UFO phenomenon is well aimed.

My major reservation is whether the technologies necessary to successfully deceive legit witnesses was available during the time frames discussed. Assuming, as we always do, that stuff still in the black box is at least 10 years ahead of public sector awareness, we needn't stretch our credulity too far. The underlying motivation of ours and other governments to invest the considerable resources necessary to keep the mythology intact for over half a century also seems in question. But if there is a "something" in the direction Carrion has taken, I think he may well be onto it.

And--Big points for his Roswell observation that Haut's press release of a crashed disc was almost certainly deliberate. The "big PR typo" theory just isn't tenable.

You're hitting the finer points of the discussion. I did some reading on the history of image projection, as well as some of the attempts to project images on the sky or wartime propaganda purposes. There have been no real practical successes of image projection during WWII, the Vietnam fracas or the Iraq one, though attempts were made. Certainly, now we have some interesting capacities to beam images off clouds in detail, but in the late 40's? Nothing in the literature seems to provide a hint that such things were taking place or even remotely possble at the time. Too much credit is being given to secret gov't labs & their advanced tech IMHO.

http://focus.ti.com/download/dlpdmd/166_History_Electronic_Proj_Tech_Hornbeck.pdf

But where Carrion gets full marks is for identifying the many fabricated news reports that took place at the time, appearing to target Russia in a propaganda game. And we all know that once you start reporting about strange objects in the sky in national papers there will inevitably be more people who will claim that they have also seen these strange objects, even if there's nothing there, or simple mundane sources will now look like ghost rockets, thanks to front end loading of the idea. But what's bizarre is their legacy in Sweden, which is as rich and detailed as any North American UFO history. Is this an indicator of something bigger in terms of how a phenomena is born and maintained and is Roswell an example of such cultural calculations? Very curious indeed.

 

[boomerang]

You're hitting the finer points of the discussion. I did some reading on the history of image projection, as well as some of the attempts to project images on the sky or wartime propaganda purposes. There have been no real practical successes of image projection during WWII, the Vietnam fracas or the Iraq one, though attempts were made. Certainly, now we have some interesting capacities to beam images off clouds in detail, but in the late 40's? Nothing in the literature seems to provide a hint that such things were taking place or even remotely possble at the time. Too much credit is being given to secret gov't labs & their advanced tech IMHO.

http://focus.ti.com/download/dlpdmd/166_History_Electronic_Proj_Tech_Hornbeck.pdf

But where Carrion gets full marks is for identifying the many fabricated news reports that took place at the time, appearing to target Russia in a propaganda game. And we all know that once you start reporting about strange objects in the sky in national papers there will inevitably be more people who will claim that they have also seen these strange objects, even if there's nothing there, or simple mundane sources will now look like ghost rockets, thanks to front end loading of the idea. But what's bizarre is their legacy in Sweden, which is as rich and detailed as any North American UFO history. Is this an indicator of something bigger in terms of how a phenomena is born and maintained and is Roswell an example of such cultural calculations? Very curious indeed.

There's a wealth of great info in your pdf link. Most of it is technically over my pointy head. But here also is an issue near the crux of the stagecraft magic problem. Was technology with the ability to convincingly blur observed reality available to the "mirage men"--whoever they might be---operational at the time a given incident took place ? We are talking about something that could produce the appearance of a saucer that hovers and then streaks over the horizon in seconds. Or at least induce the perception of it in witnesses. Such visual reports date back at least as far as the early fifties. Most of us out here in the peanut gallery have no way to assess this. I'm not even sure the best and brightest, unless read into an advanced program, would know either. Such knowledge would be kept sequestered in the black world for as long as possible.

Psychological and sociological operations are, of course, a different matter.

 

[Burnt State]

There's a wealth of great info in your pdf link. Most of it is technically over my pointy head. But here also is an issue near the crux of the stagecraft magic problem. Was technology with the ability to convincingly blur observed reality available to the "mirage men"--whoever they might be---operational at the time a given incident took place ? We are talking about something that could produce the appearance of a saucer that hovers and then streaks over the horizon in seconds. Or at least induce the perception of it in witnesses. Such visual reports date back at least as far as the early fifties. Most of us out here in the peanut gallery have no way to assess this. I'm not even sure the best and brightest, unless read into an advanced program, would know either. Such knowledge would be kept sequestered in the black world for as long as possible.

Psychological and sociological operations are, of course, a different matter.

It seems to me that what is far more likely a scenario is the control of psychological and sociological situations that promote and cultivate the idea of a narrative. That has helped to manifest UFO stories aided by a sky gazing public that will fill in the dots.

New triangular, radar defying, and these lighter than air platforms - they all own a chunk of developing UFO lore over the decades. I would suspect that there are some very interesting natural, electrical & luminescent phenomenon that own another chunk and could be our foo fighters.

But from what I read, the capacity to make a floating craft hover and streak across horizons or lights that disappear up into the star field after zipping and zooming around at odd angles in the sky, that projection technology just did not exist in the early decades post WWII. At the most, there might have been some extremely limited capacity to project a very fuzzy ghost like rocket up against clouds, but not against an empty sky, and certainly not anything that would look like a detailed, metallic, aerodynamic object.

I'm going to give Carrion another listen, regarding the thesis of magicians at work in the sky, as that's just not ringing true from what the science says. Yes, right now I could see some very interesting projections taking place above Skinwalker ranch utilizing laser and holographic imagery, but in the 40's, 50's 60's - no way.

A technology that might induce a witness to see such craft also was just not present in that early era of Ufology, at least not any human technology.

So the mystery continues...

 

[coyote]

It's good to be skeptical. We need to be very careful while sifting through the sands of Ufology, however, I believe we need to be just as careful regarding current or former intelligence operatives and any information they try and feed us.

 

[James Carrion]

It's good to be skeptical. We need to be very careful while sifting through the sands of Ufology, however, I believe we need to be just as careful regarding current or former intelligence operatives and any information they try and feed us.

The term "former intelligence operative" is painting too broad a stroke. It implies that someone who has worked at any time in the intelligence community is suspect. Never mind most intelligence workers have jobs as mundane as anyone outside the community. It also misses the point that I make in my book that "strategic deception" is a compartmentalized operation. I have a chapter on how only a select few in the Central Intelligence Group, the predecessor of the CIA were in on the deception. Thanks to all for the great comments on this forum. And I will add that I will be happy to answer any of your questions about the book and my research.

 

[DissectionStalker]

It also misses the point that I make in my book that "strategic deception" is a compartmentalized operation. I have a chapter on how only a select few in the Central Intelligence Group, the predecessor of the CIA were in on the deception.

Rendlesham Bentwaters, Skinwalker, Dulce Cattle Dissections, Brazil 1977 Operation Saucer, The Silly UFO Lights at other Nuke Storage or Launch Sites, ALL seem PERFECTLY CLEAR to me to be ALL Human Caused.

I just can't understand WHY people have to ALWAYS jump to the ET-UFO solution based solely on their own belief system. That is the basis for "stupid thinking", IMO. Yes, it's a free country and you're entitled to your ET-UFO Gods. They're everywhere on TV and the Movies and somewhere in the Universe too (most likely in huge numbers and varieties, imo).

BUT...

IF Humans can do it, THEN it is likely Humans did do it.

Two Rules:

1) Is there any Human or Human Group or Security or PSYOPS Warfare MOTIVE to do it?

2) Is there the OPPORTUNITY and ability to somehow do it by Humans?

IF 1, 2 are likely true above, then the ONLY remaining answers "unknown" are WHY and HOW the Humans are doing it. It's really never very difficult to figure out the why and how in a general sense...

Why = Military Reasons, Covert Black Ops, Money, Hoaxing, Grandstanding, PR for some group -Hollywood, Cult-ish Bizarre Reasons, Criminal, and being a Sociopath.

How = Out of the Box Solutions! It's 'not' a damn ET-UFO, but something that MIMICS ONLY 'specific' attributes or concepts of an ET-UFO. When done at night, this means its some kind of Magic Show. Magic Shows fool Size, Movement, Shape, Radar Tracking, ETC. Examples: Phoenix Lights and Belgium were Magic Shows. Flares were "a cover" for a real PSYOPS ET-UFO fake -BUT REAL Human triangle craft either by 3d Projection Hologram or by Real Light-Air Based Aircraft. Radar tricks and/or aerial decoys in Belgium faked the speeds and movement of that triangle. Geesh guys/gals, it was NATO Headquarters!!! Duhhh!

Now for the really fracked-up and mysterious part of life for some people:

There really are Mind Entities that invade people's "realities" throughout the centuries. Unfortunately, our Covert 3 Letter Agencies are learning how to use these ideas as illusions that seem real too. Do you think this is not considered to be a REAL POWERFUL weapon of Warfare or Covert Ops??? You have to be unbelievably naive (and stupid) to believe these psychological mind based weapons of control and abuse are not being tested using BILLIONS of your tax dollars every year for DECADES now! These "Freaks of Evil" or ??? are becoming our Human GODS and our Master Race!

Isn't it just a beautiful and wonderful future we have to look forward to? Real ET-UFO's are the least of my concerns!!! Except, as to how Humans are using these ET-Aliens... think about it.

IF you think I'm full of BS, then I guess Jacques Vallee is full of BS too! He KNOWS the Nuke Probe Tests in the 60's & 70's were Humans controlling aerial objects posing as so called ET-UFO's. Same thing goes for the cattle dissections at Dulce thanks to Gabe Valdez -a police officer's investigations and evidence.

Thanks to James Carrion we can all get closer to the truth about the probable Human causes of ET-UFO's, etc. Please keep being the Human probe to save us from these "evil" ET-Humans that are doing the PSYOPS, Hoaxing, and Weapons of Warfare and Abuse that harms Mankind. Enough already!

I think, at present, there is at least two possible answers that Humans or "the entities" could do it too! So, don't feel you have to be backed into a one-corner answer based on your biased beliefs. Think possibilities. Think Out of The Box. Think Motive and Opportunity too. Who benefits?

What is also HIGHLY LIKELY is multiple agendas are aligning at points along the timeline of events too.

 

[Rizla]

One of the best shows ever, the best since Moseley left us. The last couple segments contain a hell of a lot of truth. Looking around at the people on the UFO circuit perpetuating the myth, you're looking (mostly) at the problem. An uncomfortable thing to say to the UFO clique, including some of the newer up-and-coming would-be hip ones, but necessary to say. Great stuff. More shows like this, please.

 

[Rizla]

p/s I'd second the recommendation of Gabe Valdez as a guest on the show. His new book on Dulce leads to pretty much the same conclusion as Carrion. Even if you don't agree with all his conclusions, his book is very interesting, pointing to all kinds of weird spook naughtiness and outright nastiness in NM. He's also shut out of the discussion by true believers because his father was the Dulce police chief and he actually has a clue what he's talking about.

 

[DissectionStalker]

p/s I'd second the recommendation of Gabe Valdez as a guest on the show. His new book on Dulce leads to pretty much the same conclusion as Carrion. Even if you don't agree with all his conclusions, his book is very interesting, pointing to all kinds of weird spook naughtiness and outright nastiness in NM. He's also shut out of the discussion by true believers because his father was the Dulce police chief and he actually has a clue what he's talking about.

Greg is the son, and Gabe is the father -he is deceased now. (Both Gabe and Greg audio interviews can be found at OpenMinds.tv too. Also FREE -in the radio show section.)

This is a Free Paracast with Greg about his book:

Here's a download link to a previous show:

http://www.theparacast.com/podcasts/paracast_130804.mp3

August 4, 2013 — Greg Valdez

Gene and Chris present Gabe Valdez's son Greg, who has just released a very informative book, "Dulce Base: The Truth and Evidence from the Case Files of Gabe Valdez," which provides a fascinating look at his dad's many years of investigative work in and around the Dulce, NM/Rio Arriba County region, including the hell years of dozens of mutilations in the northern NM region, his work as a field investigator for Bigelow's NIDS, his theories and conclusions about the mutilations, the "Dulce Base" myths, stories, rumors and legends plus much more!

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Finshed listening to the show and very good indeed. However , Mr Mich Hanks viewpoints were very valued too about the Ghost Rockets which I agree with and we are on brink of something very big in our history regarding fiance, security and outerspace. Wonder what Pluto will bring to the table?

 

[Burnt State]

Thanks to all for the great comments on this forum. And I will add that I will be happy to answer any of your questions about the book and my research.

Mr. Carrion, if possible, could you please describe the nature of the technology used to create the ghost rocket visual effect, or is your primary argument that the newspaper claims were themselves pieces of propaganda? In your research was there ever a period where an actual technology used to create the visual effect of the ghost rocket?

 

[Fedora Chronicles]

Sorry, James – you lost me with your answer to my question about Roswell.

My original question – “Tell us about your thoughts on Roswell - I'm on the fence because I believe the UFO crash could have been a cover-up of a real crash of a real flying wedge/wing the military was tested that was based off of technology taken from Germany during Operation Paperclip... or it was really an alien spacecraft. Which theory do you subscribe to?”

The entire premise of my question is based on the assumption that something crashed since we have several witnesses who were either civilians and military men who claimed to have seen the crash and/or crash debris…, so the craft must have been either one thing or the other. If something crashed, than what was it? To say “nothing” crashed out in the desert and the entire episode never happened, means no body or bodies was found, no wreckage was ever recovered and there never were teams of men out in the desert picking debris out of the sand using tweezers and hand trowels despite the fact that many people came forward in their later years and said that’s exactly what happened.

If you're right - either you have way too many people are just too egger to perpetuate a BS story to deceive the Russians, or you have a lot of people who are lying and just want to be a part of history for no other reason than to touch the face of the celebrity god and experience being a part of a historical non-event.

Who has come forward to say… yea… “we fabricated this story to fool the Russians”… anybody?

So, men like Stanton Freedman was duped or is purposely lying? And the authors of “Witness To Roswell: Unmasking the 60-Year Cover-Up” - Thomas J. Carey and Donald R. Schmitt? They’re either fooled or part of the crowd lying about this incident?

To say "nothing happened" and the entire episode was made up in spite of the mountains of eyewitness reports encourages me to question everything else about The Rosetta Deception.

Sorry.

 

[James Carrion]

Sorry, James – you lost me with your answer to my question about Roswell.

My original question – “Tell us about your thoughts on Roswell - I'm on the fence because I believe the UFO crash could have been a cover-up of a real crash of a real flying wedge/wing the military was tested that was based off of technology taken from Germany during Operation Paperclip... or it was really an alien spacecraft. Which theory do you subscribe to?”

The entire premise of my question is based on the assumption that something crashed since we have several witnesses who were either civilians and military men who claimed to have seen the crash and/or crash debris…, so the craft must have been either one thing or the other. If something crashed, than what was it? To say “nothing” crashed out in the desert and the entire episode never happened, means no body or bodies was found, no wreckage was ever recovered and there never were teams of men out in the desert picking debris out of the sand using tweezers and hand trowels despite the fact that many people came forward in their later years and said that’s exactly what happened.

If you're right - either you have way too many people are just too egger to perpetuate a BS story to deceive the Russians, or you have a lot of people who are lying and just want to be a part of history for no other reason than to touch the face of the celebrity god and experience being a part of a historical non-event.

Who has come forward to say… yea… “we fabricated this story to fool the Russians”… anybody?

So, men like Stanton Freedman was duped or is purposely lying? And the authors of “Witness To Roswell: Unmasking the 60-Year Cover-Up” - Thomas J. Carey and Donald R. Schmitt? They’re either fooled or part of the crowd lying about this incident?

To say "nothing happened" and the entire episode was made up in spite of the mountains of eyewitness reports encourages me to question everything else about The Rosetta Deception.

Sorry.

Well best I address your assumptions before answering your question. First the alleged crash. Mac Brazel saw debris, not a crash, Jesse Marcel saw debris, not a crash. So the first thing that would have to be addressed is did something actually "crash". Enumerate your first hand witnesses to the actual crash and let's examine their testimony. Please do not include the 2nd hand witnesses who did not see the crash as that would be hearsay. Just because something was recovered in the dessert does not mean it crashed.

You offer only two possibilities for what Roswell could have been, a military aircraft test or an alien spacecraft, and that is based on your earlier assumption that something actually crashed. You need to prove a crash before you can label what crashed.

It appears your knowledge of these events comes from reading the investigations of others like Friedman, Randall, etc. Then you state without ever having read my book or the evidence that I present that if I say "nothing happened" then somehow my Rosetta Deception research is flawed. Jeez that is like saying to a Nuclear Physicist that if you don't believe in Global Warming then your string theory research must be a sham.

Between the flying wing theory and the crashed alien spacecraft theory, there is room for many other possibilities. My theory based on my research is the human deception theory. I show precedence for Roswell in the Rosetta Deception but Roswell itself is not addressed in that book at all - that will come later in Volume 2, tentatively titled "The Roswell Deception".

 

[James Carrion]

Mr. Carrion, if possible, could you please describe the nature of the technology used to create the ghost rocket visual effect, or is your primary argument that the newspaper claims were themselves pieces of propaganda? In your research was there ever a period where an actual technology used to create the visual effect of the ghost rocket?

Since no "rockets" were ever recovered, I couldn't even tell you if they were made out of paper mache or something else. And therein lies the mystery. What we do know from military sources and official documentation is that "rockets" were seen and would self destruct. The US Navy Beachjumpers who perpetrated WW2 deception used paraphernalia that self destructed so as to confuse the enemy. The commanding office of the Beachjumpers was Admiral Hewitt who was in Scandinavia and the Mediterranean during the exact time frames of the Ghost Rockets being seen in Northern and Southern Europe. So if I were the one building these "rockets" for deception purposes, I would make sure they were light weight and highly combustible so that self destruction would be complete. As for the media acting as a propaganda agent, that is not only plausible but highly likely given how WW2 deception planners used the media in the same way. Read the excellent book "The Deceivers" for an in-depth look at WW2 deception. The Deceivers: Allied Military Deception in the Second World War: Thaddeus Holt: 9781616080792: Amazon.com: Books

 

[James Carrion]

Finshed listening to the show and very good indeed. However , Mr Mich Hanks viewpoints were very valued too about the Ghost Rockets which I agree with and we are on brink of something very big in our history regarding fiance, security and outerspace. Wonder what Pluto will bring to the table?

My copy of Micah Hanks' book is arriving today and I will post my thoughts after I read it.

 

[SRL+]

Mr. Carrion: are you suggesting that MUFON’s database in relation to “UAPs” or “UFOs” as a research tool is pretty much worthless?