James Carrion, "The Rosetta Deception," July 20, 2014

[James Carrion]

Mr. Carrion: are you suggesting that MUFON’s database in relation to “UAPs” or “UFOs” as a research tool is pretty much worthless?

Can you qualify what you mean by "MUFON database"? Do you mean the "MUFON Files" aka Hangar 1? Hangar 1 used to be the basement of my home in Colorado. Can quality research be done on that data? You would think but collecting data with no protocol for how to study that data is an exercise in futility. It has been MUFON's problem for years.

The MUFON Symposium where the study of this data should be presented is filled with speakers who present the sensational and draw the believer faithful. It is more akin to a religious revival than a scientific symposium.

 

[SRL+]

Can you qualify what you mean by "MUFON database"? Do you mean the "MUFON Files" aka Hangar 1? Hangar 1 used to be the basement of my home in Colorado. Can quality research be done on that data? You would think but collecting data with no protocol for how to study that data is an exercise in futility. It has been MUFON's problem for years.

The MUFON Symposium where the study of this data should be presented is filled with speakers who present the sensational and draw the believer faithful. It is more akin to a religious revival than a scientific symposium.

What I’m actually thinking, is of your impression(s) as former director of MUFON in relation to all case files, not necessarily that of “Hanger 1”, or the symposium. I guess another way to ask this would be.., was there at any time information gathering conducted by MUFON that a researcher like Jacques Vallee could use in order to possibly establish various patterns presented by aerial anomalies?

 

[James Carrion]

MUFON's paper historical files are not amenable to comparative analysis as there are no captured discrete data points for analysis. When MUFON moved over to their CMS database that collects these datapoints via their website, that dataset would be more amenable to comparative analysis.

 

[SRL+]

MUFON's paper historical files are not amenable to comparative analysis as there are no captured discrete data points for analysis. When MUFON moved over to their CMS database that collects these datapoints via their website, that dataset would be more amenable to comparative analysis.

Are you implying that there may be some actionable information in there? When did MUFON switch over to a CMS database?

 

[James Carrion]

When you file an online report at their website, that is the CMS database. Check out the online forms to see exactly which discrete datapoints are gathered. I am not sure the exact year they switched but I remember it being around since at least 2006.

 

[SRL+]

When you file an online report at their website, that is the CMS database. Check out the online forms to see exactly which discrete datapoints are gathered. I am not sure the exact year they switched but I remember it being around since at least 2006.

Do you think there may be any actionable information in the CMS database?

 

[DissectionStalker]

Do you think there may be any actionable information in the CMS database?

You can go online and read the reports yourself. I've done so myself and found some very interesting sightings and VERY creative writing too! Lol.

The reports are kept anonymous, BUT some people do put their personal contact info in their report too. That seems to be the only way to follow-up on anything potentially actionable -whatever that means...

 

[SRL+]

You can go online and read the reports yourself. I've done so myself and found some very interesting sightings and VERY creative writing too! Lol.

The reports are kept anonymous, BUT some people do put their personal contact info in their report too. That seems to be the only way to follow-up on anything potentially actionable -whatever that means...

Don’t know what “actionable information” is? Look it up “DissectionStalker”, that’s what the web is for. Besides, James Carrion knows exactly what I’m referring to, and that’s what counts.

Actionable information logistics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Sentry]

MUFON's paper historical files are not amenable to comparative analysis as there are no captured discrete data points for analysis. When MUFON moved over to their CMS database that collects these datapoints via their website, that dataset would be more amenable to comparative analysis.

This is interesting. When I first discovered the CMS database, I assumed it was a catalog of historical MUFON reports, but it is only the newly entered reports. I was expecting to at least find placeholder entries for famous cases like the Cash-Landrum case, but there's nothing. Thinking information on key historical case files might be available another way, I contacted MUFON but got nothing.

James, I understand you were working on Pandora Project, which John Schuessler said was "scanning all MUFON UFO information and reports dating back to the beginning of the organization in 1969." If it was ever completed, access to it was not shared. A few PDF files were up on the MUFON website, now eliminated on the updated site, sadly replaced by Wikipedia articles.

What was the status of Pandora when you left MUFON? It was a worthwhile project, but it seems to have been buried for some reason.

 

[Constance]

Great interview ! Carrion comes across as a sincere and well researched critical thinker. His focus on the stagecraft aspect of the UFO phenomenon is well aimed.

My major reservation is whether the technologies necessary to successfully deceive legit witnesses was available during the time frames discussed. Assuming, as we always do, that stuff still in the black box is at least 10 years ahead of public sector awareness, we needn't stretch our credulity too far. The underlying motivation of ours and other governments to invest the considerable resources necessary to keep the mythology intact for over half a century also seems in question.

It doesn't add up for me either. A number of people prefer this interpretation, some heavily influenced by the Mirage Men book and film. Most people do not realize that the people who wrote the book and screenplay and produced the film [with what funding?] are devoted to, and take great pleasure in, hoaxing and mind games. Richard K. Hall, a British ufo researcher, has exposed this little troupe and their longtime affiliation with MI5 in the documentary linked below. The members of this circle have been affiliated with both MI5 and the CIA (see Colin Andrews's exposes of the CIA's attempts to coopt and neutralize him). Hall's one-hour documentary Crop Circles: The Hidden Truth is well worth seeing.


Richplanet.net - MI5 Psy Ops Operatives

Crop Circles - The Hidden Truth. Expose MI5 making crop circles

 

[Burnt State]

It doesn't add up for me either. A number of people prefer this interpretation, some heavily influenced by the Mirage Men book and film. Most people do not realize that the people who wrote the book and screenplay and produced the film [with what funding?] are devoted to, and take great pleasure in, hoaxing and mind games. Richard K. Hall, a British ufo researcher, has exposed this little troupe and their longtime affiliation with MI5 in the documentary linked below. The members of this circle have been affiliated with both MI5 and the CIA (see Colin Andrews's exposes of the CIA's attempts to coopt and neutralize him). Hall's one-hour documentary Crop Circles: The Hidden Truth is well worth seeing.


Richplanet.net - MI5 Psy Ops Operatives

Crop Circles - The Hidden Truth. Expose MI5 making crop circles

Is there any real solid proof connecting John Lundberg to MI5? It seem that cereologists have a habit of claiming journalists and artists are MI5 hired disinformation agents as opposed to just people going on about their weird and regular business. From what I could research about the Mirage Men producers they all seem to have a fairly healthy track record in film and/or as artists, cinematographers etc.

Is it just that the cereologists, whose livelihood is threatened by claims of human hoaxing and art making, that claim MI5 involvemenet? I couldn't really see anything solid that proved this claim aside from anomalies regarding Lundberg's apartment. Was there anything more specific?

These artists seem genuinely interested in making work concerned with manipulating the public and seem to have way more in common with the motives of artists liks Banksy than with Richard Doty's more malignant concerns. Though Doty seems to be more rogue than following a calculated plan from up above. It seems that while there has been gov't involvement in disinformation, but to what extent and as to how many secret double agents are operating, is still a question.

What does seem evident is rhat there are large segments of society that routinely work to create and refine the illusion of the UFO, Bigfoot, Crop Circles or the paranormal at work in reality. Some of those people are hoaxers, some are artists, some have a dog in the race and make their money by perpetuating mythology (why else would reputable ufologists associate themselves with that ThirdPhasofMoon crap?) and some are gov't agents. The question is who has perpetuated the biggest lies or done the most damage?

 

[DissectionStalker]

Even Doty seems to be more rogue than following a calculated plan from up above. It seems that while there has been gov't involvement in disinformation, but to what extent and as to how many secret double agents are operating, is still a question.

I honestly think Doty was made into a patsy and true believer, when he was shown a UFO at Area 51 and also a film about aliens crash landing near Roswell. Doty was hoaxed, so he could hoax us too! Why would Doty at his relatively low rank ever be given access to REAL Top Secret "UFO's" or information about ET crash landing??? That can never add-up to my level of understanding, hell, the President doesn't even know, but it certainly adds-up to spin Doty off as a whirling dervish of disinformation that is a true believer too! I'd say he's done his job very well to continue the mythology even after leaving the Air Force.

IF we're ever going to find ET-UFO for real, then it will have NOTHING to do with the military -ever! And, even if it did, then there is still no sense in looking for it there covered-up in disinformation and Mirage Men. All you get at that end of the stick is Conspiracy Theories...

...and X-Files, UFO TV, SyFy, and Hollywood ET's. It's entertainment... so ET and UFO's are real. Right?

 

[James Carrion]

This is interesting. When I first discovered the CMS database, I assumed it was a catalog of historical MUFON reports, but it is only the newly entered reports. I was expecting to at least find placeholder entries for famous cases like the Cash-Landrum case, but there's nothing. Thinking information on key historical case files might be available another way, I contacted MUFON but got nothing.

James, I understand you were working on Pandora Project, which John Schuessler said was "scanning all MUFON UFO information and reports dating back to the beginning of the organization in 1969." If it was ever completed, access to it was not shared. A few PDF files were up on the MUFON website, now eliminated on the updated site, sadly replaced by Wikipedia articles.

What was the status of Pandora when you left MUFON? It was a worthwhile project, but it seems to have been buried for some reason.

All the paper files were scanned and saved into searchable PDF format.

 

[James Carrion]

It doesn't add up for me either. A number of people prefer this interpretation, some heavily influenced by the Mirage Men book and film. Most people do not realize that the people who wrote the book and screenplay and produced the film [with what funding?] are devoted to, and take great pleasure in, hoaxing and mind games. Richard K. Hall, a British ufo researcher, has exposed this little troupe and their longtime affiliation with MI5 in the documentary linked below. The members of this circle have been affiliated with both MI5 and the CIA (see Colin Andrews's exposes of the CIA's attempts to coopt and neutralize him). Hall's one-hour documentary Crop Circles: The Hidden Truth is well worth seeing.


Richplanet.net - MI5 Psy Ops Operatives

Crop Circles - The Hidden Truth. Expose MI5 making crop circles

You should take the time to read my book and the documented evidence I present and then let me know what does not add up for you.

 

[James Carrion]

I honestly think Doty was made into a patsy and true believer, when he was shown a UFO at Area 51 and also a film about aliens crash landing near Roswell. Doty was hoaxed, so he could hoax us too! Why would Doty at his relatively low rank ever be given access to REAL Top Secret "UFO's" or information about ET crash landing??? That can never add-up to my level of understanding, hell, the President doesn't even know, but it certainly adds-up to spin Doty off as a whirling dervish of disinformation that is a true believer too! I'd say he's done his job very well to continue the mythology even after leaving the Air Force.

IF we're ever going to find ET-UFO for real, then it will have NOTHING to do with the military -ever! And, even if it did, then there is still no sense in looking for it there covered-up in disinformation and Mirage Men. All you get at that end of the stick is Conspiracy Theories...

...and X-Files, UFO TV, SyFy, and Hollywood ET's. It's entertainment... so ET and UFO's are real. Right?

Can you provide any solid evidence to back up ANY of the statements you have made here?

 

[DissectionStalker]

Can you provide any solid evidence to back up ANY of the statements you have made here?

In Mirage Men at the 1 hour and 17 minute mark Doty himself recounts his confusion when being told and shown a film about the ET's and the UFO crash near Roswell late '40's including a filmed ET interview and ongoing communication with these ET's. He was "read-in" to this program in the late 1970's. This goes on to the 1 hour and 22+ minute mark.

He was also being told too that UFO's were "a cover" for Top Secret programs, but in the end Doty says these ET's/UFO's are real.

I can't recall where I read in a book or maybe from Greg Bishop that Doty was shown a UFO at Area 51 too. The story goes he was a guard there and saw the UFO uncovered on a flatbed truck with implied "orders" not to "see" what he just saw. One reason Doty got to be there is it is said his father and/or other members of his family were also in security in the Air Force before Doty's service, so he had that "family history" of Air Force military connections and established lineage to help clear a path for Doty to be "more trusted" to see such events.

So, with all of the above in mind, it leads me back to this question:

Why would Doty at his relatively low rank ever be given access to REAL Top Secret "UFO's" or REAL information about a Roswell ET crash landing including a surviving ET too??? That definitely makes no sense to me that the truth will be given to Doty??? No way! I say patsy! I say hoax!

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

James bought your book and will come back with some questions. Also got Micah Hanks already and good more focus one this part of UFO?UKnown history. Have you read any of Dr Farrells Books which are good reading ?

 

[IsaacKoi]

All the paper files were scanned and saved into searchable PDF format.

Hi James,

I think I've read all that has been published about MUFON's multi-year scanning project ("the Pandora Project") in the MUFON journal and elsewhere. I collated relevant articles a year or so ago and uploaded them to the link below.
http://isaackoi.minus.com/mcZIh4J4fzFVG

Even within MUFON, details of what was scanned are rather sparse. Over the last couple of years, I've been told pretty wildly differing and contradictory things even by senior officials within MUFON.

I discussed the Pandora Project with Dave MacDonald, Jacques Vallee and others a few weeks ago when I went to Paris to participate in the meeting organised by the French space agency, CNES.

Dave MacDonald said he was sure that everything scanned for the Pandora Project was made available on the Blackvault website. That material is at the link below:
Category:MUFON Case Files - The Black Vault Encyclopedia Project

From what I had previously read and heard (mainly in articles written by you and podcast interviews you had given), my impression was that considerably more had been scanned than is available at the above link - but Dave MacDonald was pretty insistent that the files on the Blackvault site included everything that had been scanned by MUFON as part of the Pandora Project.

 

[James Carrion]

In Mirage Men at the 1 hour and 17 minute mark Doty himself recounts his confusion when being told and shown a film about the ET's and the UFO crash near Roswell late '40's including a filmed ET interview and ongoing communication with these ET's. He was "read-in" to this program in the late 1970's. This goes on to the 1 hour and 22+ minute mark.

He was also being told too that UFO's were "a cover" for Top Secret programs, but in the end Doty says these ET's/UFO's are real.

I can't recall where I read in a book or maybe from Greg Bishop that Doty was shown a UFO at Area 51 too. The story goes he was a guard there and saw the UFO uncovered on a flatbed truck with implied "orders" not to "see" what he just saw. One reason Doty got to be there is it is said his father and/or other members of his family were also in security in the Air Force before Doty's service, so he had that "family history" of Air Force military connections and established lineage to help clear a path for Doty to be "more trusted" to see such events.

So, with all of the above in mind, it leads me back to this question:

Why would Doty at his relatively low rank ever be given access to REAL Top Secret "UFO's" or REAL information about a Roswell ET crash landing including a surviving ET too??? That definitely makes no sense to me that the truth will be given to Doty??? No way! I say patsy! I say hoax!

If I offer an opinion on Doty, it would be just that - an opinion - I have done no research of my own, did not look in Government archives for corroborating evidence and have not logically dissected his story. I HAVE done all of that for the research that culminated in the Rosetta Deception - showing that human deception for strategic deception purposes is the more likely culprit than ETs and Hoaxes in 1946-47. The title of this thread is the Rosetta Deception, but it appears to have been misdirected to discussion about The Mirage Men and Doty I assume because you and others are attempting to draw a direct correlation between Rosetta and Mirage Men. The only two things they have in common is emphasizing human involvement over extraordinary events and being the minority reports in a sea of books on this subject. Other than that there is nothing else to compare.

 

[DissectionStalker]

The title of this thread is the Rosetta Deception, but it appears to have been misdirected to discussion about The Mirage Men and Doty I assume because you and others are attempting to draw a direct correlation between Rosetta and Mirage Men.

You asked me for some information, which I provided to the best of my ability. I only commented on Doty, because Burnt State made some speculation about it. No one is trying to hijack the thread...

I think your next book is tentatively titled: The Roswell Deception -which was mentioned on the Paracast show too. This thread is about the Paracast Interview too and what was discussed there beyond just ghost rockets.

Of course, Doty plays a major and central role in the start-up of disinformation with Moore and others, which as Doty says himself had a lot to do with Roswell. I don't know of any other audio/video interviews that Doty has done, so Mirage Men is certainly your only source straight from Doty in that media format. Of course, Greg Bishop's book & the Mirage Men book will have more details.

I hope you can uncover some new information for Roswell. Good Luck!